Top 7 ways to tell if Someone is lying about being a ‘Salafi Jihadi’

[kpete]

here are some tips for recognizing a Muslim fundamentalist who has turned to terrorism, i.e. what most counter-terrrorism experts call a Salafi Jihadi (I prefer the term fundamentalist vigilante). (Note: Only 15% of Muslims are fundamentalists; only 9 million out of 1.5 billion are Wahhabis; and the vast majority of Muslim fundamentalists are peaceful. ISIL in Syria and Iraq is estimated to have on the order of 25,000 fighters).

1. Salafi Jihadis don’t drink alcohol.

2. Salafi Jihadis don’t hang out in bars.

3. Salafi Jihadis don’t, in particular, frequent gay bars.

4. Salafi Jihadis don’t text potential hook-ups using a gay dating app.

5. Salafi Jihadis aren’t usually clean shaven.

6. Salafi Jihadis belong to a fringe interpretation of Sunni Islam and despise Shiites; they don’t typically claim to have an affiliation with a Shiite group such as Hizbullah, which is fighting ISIL in Syria. (Here “typically” means, like, “ever.”)

7. Salafi Jihadis don’t express a hope that non-Muslim police will assault their wives. In fact, they wouldn’t want men other than close relatives to so much as see their wives unveiled.

MORE:
http://www.juancole.com/2016/06/someone-salafi-jihadi.html

[Bluenorthwest]

1. Yes because religious persons never preach one thing and do another.....they are never hypocrites

just murderers. Although they slaughter in cold blood, their words of devotion must be taken purely at face value, we must assume they perfectly practice that which they say they practice. Just like Southern Baptists never, ever drink or gamble. It's against their religion, so they never do it. Right?

[840high]

51. right.

[ck4829]

2. "But... but... it's DIFFERENT" is what we will see very soon.

Mateen was clearly messed up; sexually, cognitively, and religiously.

[David__77]

3. Excuse-making for Islamist terrorism.

He was a Muslim whose parents were from Afghanistan and he pledged allegiance to Islamic State and killed dozens. And somehow there is concern by some to claim he could not possibly be an Islamist terrorist.

It seems to me that some people aim to protect the Islamist terrorists by minimizing not only the threat they pose; also in attributing their actual actions to others. I find it amazingly disrespectful to those who were killed and, as a gay person I find it heartless.

[Fumesucker]

5. I think it can be legitimately viewed either way at the moment

It seems to me that this is a person who has been carefully trained to hate something that unfortunately turned out to be part of his personality.

The source of the training seems to be an interpretation of Islam.

[librarylu]

7. He may have been

a Jihadist wannabee but does ISIS really want to claim a fighter who got drunk in gay bars?

Facts are facts and it's looking like Mateen was a deeply disturbed individual who slipped through the cracks. It's even possible he experienced a psychotic break.

How is any of this heartless? Does it help to blame terrorists in general for the act of a lone wolf?

[David__77]

14. The spin that it's not Islamist terrorism strikes me as heartless.

What I understand is that someone who was under FBI investigation and in his last moments pledged allegiance to Islamic State killed people in a gay bar.

The spin that he was not an Islamist, contrary to his verified statements, or that this was not a terrorist act, strike me as heartless toward those killed and toward the groups Islamic State wants to wipe out.

Imagine if someone killed 50 people on a black college campus who in his last moments pledged allegiance to a Nazi group. I would find spin that that wasn't actually Nazi terrorism to be heartless to the victims and to the black community.

He wasn't fucking gay. He may or may not have fucked men in addition to women- so what? I'm sure on the battlefields of Syria and Iraq more than a little of that occurs.

[librarylu]

27. He also claimed

allegiance to a group that's fighting ISIS. Apparently he couldn't keep his jihads straight.

One report says he threatened to shoot up his school when he was in 5th grade. Isn't that kind of young to have any clear ideology?

If an attack on a black college was planned and executed by a Nazi group then, yes, that would be reasonable to assume, but not if
it was a lone deranged racist merely pledging allegiance in his last moments.

There were plenty of warning signs about Mateen all along the way but how do you prevent someone like him from acting out? We can't arrest people for what they might do. Apparently a two-week suspension from school didn't cure him.

Even if he was a conflicted gay how does that reflect on the entire community any more than him being Muslim reflects on all Muslims?

[MariaThinks]

55. his religion says that gays should be killed and he killed gays. Is the connection too obvious?

[Bluenorthwest]

15. They claimed him already, he's dead now. He claimed them, they claimed him.

Everyone agrees Dylann Roof is a racist. And yet I have not seen his membership in any racist group. He just claimed that philosophy and that's that. But this killer claims a philosophy as motive and many here line up to claim it simply can not be because he's not a real member of the group that pushes his philosophy.
The rules and standards shift when it is LGBT people. Obviously.

[librarylu]

28. I'm wondering

if they'll unclaim him now that it appears he drank and frequented gay bars. Aren't they rather vehemently opposed to that sort of thing?

[Bluenorthwest]

32. Actually that which is done to ease the objective at hand is permitted.

Your theory that Isis is actually devout is crazy, they rape, kill and steal, they are in conflict with their own claimed set of rules. They do that which they feel gains them power.

You have a much more noble view of Isis than I do.

[librarylu]

60. Do you have me confused with someone else?

I have no such theory.

Your description of ISIS sounds a lot like some other groups I could name but they're Westerners.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. Correctly diagnosing the killers motives is not only respectful to those who died...

... it provides correct information with which to prevent similar crimes in the future.

[Bluenorthwest]

24. And that's DU's job, this 'diagnosing'? That's scary because DU always claims anti gay persons

are 'really gay'. It's the instantly taken fall back position of the straight community here.

Rush 'Really Gay' Limbaugh:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2002927

Ted Cruz is in the closet:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024099548

So is George W Bush:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3755261

Fred Phelps:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3530375

This thread boldly asks if all homophobes are really gay:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x217441

I could do this all day.
That's why folks who offer such theories really need to be prepared with facts and not with conjecture. It's a regularly used smear.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. I have no more standing to diagnose "gay" than I do "jihadi terrorist"

But I found this explanation compelling, certainly far more so than the official explanation of him being a grass roots islamic terrorist, who didn't practice anything his "strongly held religious beliefs" demanded.

I think fundamentalism was a proximate cause; not because he particularly believed in Jihad, but because he couldn't live with the self-loathing that his upbringing instilled in him.

[Bluenorthwest]

41. And yet you fail to respond to the fact that 'he's really gay' is a habitual claim made by straight

DUers about nasty and bigoted persons who hate LGBT. The fact that this is what some say about each and every one of them makes the burden of proof rather high. Bush. Cruz. Rush. Every homophobe on earth is said by DU to be 'really gay'. It seems obvious that this is not thought through, it's just spewed out instantly.

Why do you think it is said about every nasty bigoted person? I think that in itself is anti gay bigotry. Yeah.

You don't seem to have any problem with the regular 'diagnosis' of every Republican as being 'really gay'. Why is that?

[lumberjack_jeff]

44. "Straight" isn't a club. I don't need to "respond to" everything other straight people say.

If you disagree with something I say, by all means let's talk about it. I don't make you answer for everything other gay people say or do, and I expect the same courtesy in return.

I DO say that expecting or requiring people to live in the closet, especially for religious reasons, is harmful to their mental health, and what is being reported about the Orlando killer is reinforcing that view.

[librarylu]

29. Yes

Thank you for saying so.

[Bluenorthwest]

33. And yet that poster can't address the dozens of other times bigots have been called 'actually gay'

here on DU. I gave a bunch of links, you and that poster just ignore them. But those links are there, and people see them and they see that this is what some people always say. Rush? gay. Bush? Gay. Cruz? Gay! Every homophobe on Earth? Really just gay.

So when you come up with the same old line you always come up with, it starts to reek of bias and prejudice.

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. There is this

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772014

Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.

Closeted homophobes are not only anecdotally common, the phenomenon has been studied many times. My belief is that these assholes wouldn't be such assholes were they more comfortable with their orientation.

[Bluenorthwest]

43. That does not explain why DU is full of people who instantly claim every bigot is 'really gay'.

Does it? Rush. Cruz, and now this killer. Have you heard of that boy who cried wolf? Now he's crying 'he's really gay' at every Republican in sight. His voracity is greatly damaged by this habit. This habit the boy refuses to question even when directly confronted with it.

"Poll question: are open homophobes themselves gay?

i have often seen this theory put forward as a reason for their bigotry. this obviously rarely comes up when responding to issues of racial hatred. what is your take?"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x217441

What I see is people just scratching the itch they always scratch. Crying wolf.

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. I have thought of this a bit more and I understand the reason for pushback.

I don't like it when DU'ers use "a white man" as the only relevant defining characteristic of the average rampage killer. It feels like an attempt to paint me and everyone who looks like me with that brush.

... and you've been around long enough that I don't need to post links for examples.

His religion, ancestry and his orientation aren't the only defining characteristics for Omar Mateen.

[librarylu]

49. I haven't read the links yet

and probably won't read them all since I don't read everything on DU.

No, I don't think that way, but I don't think I find the idea that a straight male terrorist planning an attack would spend an awful lot of time getting drunk in gay establishments convincing.

I'm straight myself but I've had a lot of contact with people in gay bars near where I worked (back when gays had to line dance because couples dancing was illegal for them) and was usually the only straight person there, except when I took my mom. I used to drive my best friend to transgender meetings after I moved to the SE. I've also had a blood relative and an inlaw who tried valiantly to be heterosexual but who just weren't. I do have some idea of what they go through.

In this case there seems to be evidence the shooter was hooking up or trying to. Maybe he got rejected in the nightclub and that's what triggered him. Who knows?

I try not to think of Rush Limbaugh at all.

I don't think I've posted enough for you to know what I think. Please don't paint me with the same brush you're using on others.

[840high]

52. +100

[deaniac21]

4. Or it's a Salafi Jihadi

lying about being gay and drinking. Who knows?

[CJCRANE]

6. Or maybe he was a hypocrite

or conflicted or ignorant or over compensating or all of the above.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. Here is a story about murdrers from 2014, the killer also used a 'dating app' to lure victims

"Brown's bloody rampage began April 27, when he is accused of gunning down Henderson near his home in Skyway. On June 1, he used a dating application for gay men to lure Dwone Anderson-Young and Ahmed Said to a Seattle nightclub before shooting them both at close range, documents say.

The 29-year-old "essentially executed" both men, according to court filings.

After Seattle police spread his picture through the media, Brown fled to New Jersey, where he gunned down 19-year-old Brendan Tevlin in West Orange during what appeared to be a robbery, Essex County, N.J., prosecutors have said."
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-seattle-shootings-confessions-20140820-story.html

But gee, there is no reason to use such an app unless one is gay!!!!!! It's proven by DU assumptions!!!!! No straight killer would use such an app to target gay people, that would be against their religion!!!!!!

[Mojorabbit]

34. His roommate in college said the shooter asked him out in a romantic way

so he may well have been at least bi. As time goes on, more info will come out.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. His highschool classmates said he cheered for the 9-11 attacks. Is that also Gospel truth?

DUers were not taking to that accusation at all. It was mocked as unsubstantiated bullshit. Now you seem to claim anything said must be the truth.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141486963

[Mojorabbit]

42. Given what has come out so far, that fits the description given of him

the FBI says he was a big consumer of jihadist video on the internet. He also had been hanging out in gay clubs since his college days. He also is reported by coworkers to have had a major anger problem. A complex mix.

[rjsquirrel]

9. I'm wondering if ISIS will still want to claim him

after the news today.


Whoops!

[Bluenorthwest]

10. Conjecture and gossip is not 'the news'.

And your post, as usual, is horrifying.

[Bluenorthwest]

11. OP should address what is being said in thread

OP claims religious persons are always perfect in practice, even as they plan mass murders.....seems a stretch to me.

[MellowDem]

12. Islam promotes bigotry of homosexuals...

and is to blame for the hate it promotes, no matter what labels adherents take on or how hypocritical they may be, any part of their reasoning based on the bigotry in Islam is the fault of Islam.

[Bluenorthwest]

13. Two local ministers, 30 others snared in prostitution, human trafficking sting

"KNOXVILLE — Two local ministers face felony charges for seeking sex with underage girls during an undercover sting targeting human trafficking and prostitution this week, authorities said Friday.

Jason Evan Kennedy, 46, head of the children's ministry at Grace Baptist Church of Knoxville, was one of two men charged with felony human trafficking and patronizing prostitution after they answered online advertisements specifically offering sex with an underage girl, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation announced during a news conference.

Also charged with felony trafficking is Zubin Percy Parakh, 32, of Oak Ridge, who serves as creative pastor with Lifehouse Church in Oak Ridge, according to the church's website."
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/crime-courts/tbi-kpd-to-announce-results-of-human-trafficking-investigation-33444f6e-1419-44b6-e053-0100007fdb69-380253981.html

I'm fairly sure the Baptists frown on such things, and yet here are Ministers in that Church doing those things! Imagine that! Religious people don't follow their own religion when they want to do otherwise. How surprising!

[DetlefK]

20. Then what makes you think they are "religious people"?

Somebody claims to follow the rules but does not follow the rules. So why would one describe him as a follower of the rules???

[Bluenorthwest]

21. The arrested are both Ministers leading congregations full of people who say their pastors

are religious. I don't think anyone is actually religious, they are all just using texts to excuse their own behaviors. What I see are the actions such people take, not the stories they tell themselves in their heads to rationalize their agendas.

Religious people are not 'those who follow the rules' they are 'those who cite the rules for others to follow while they do as they wish'.

[malaise]

16. Truth will out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7900132

This killer will turn out to be just another mentally unstable gay-hating American with access to an AR

[melman]

19. Holy fuck

You are actually trying to call attention to that thread? Because you believe it's been vindicated. Pathetic.

[Bluenorthwest]

17. Hi, I don't drink alcohol, I am not clean shaven, I don't go to bars of any sort and I don't use

dating 'apps' because that's just not me. I'm 5 out of Juan's 7. Juan is habitually homophobic and regularly exploits LGBT issues to defend groups that are bigoted against LGBT.

Of course the OP hurls crap but never stands to discuss the crap hurled. Says much about the crap being hurled if you ask me. Those who vend it have no pride in it.

[Coventina]

22. Ridiculous. Islamic terrorists break these "rules" all the time.

Remember the 9/11 hijackers?

Going to strip clubs, drinking alcohol?

Trying to say an Islamic terrorist is not a "true" Islamic terrorist because he's clean-shaven or went to a bar is using the "No True Scotsman" argument.

It's completely bogus.

[Iggo]

23. Number One Way To Tell They're Full Of Shit: They're telling me about it.

[B2G]

25. Wrong

It is perfectly permissible to do all of those things if it is to blend into society for the specific aim of committing Jihad.

We've gone over this before.

[Bluenorthwest]

26. So OP. Do you really belive this claim that religious murderers are super honest and devout

except for the murder? 'They will kill you but they would never shave in order to get by with killing you, they have honor!!!!'

[B2G]

30. Because nothing says stealth

Like a bearded Koran carrying Jihadi.

[Coventina]

31. IKR? "Be as stereotypical as possible."

First thing they tell you about infiltration.

[Bluenorthwest]

36. There have been other murders by religiously motivated persons who also used 'dating apps' to

find and lure their victims. DU refuses to discuss that. They say it is 'hate' to speak of the ongoing murders of LGBT, to dare call out the arsons and shootings is 'hate'.

[Coventina]

37. Agreed. DU (or at least a segment) is driving me nuts over this.

I'm almost glad I'm leaving the country for a week, because the arguments are just exhausting.

[Bluenorthwest]

40. I'd like to leave the country and never come back. Sadly I am stuck here.

nt

[Coventina]

47. I know the feeling. So am I, residency-wise.

This is just a week-long work trip.

[FLPanhandle]

45. 7 ways for you to avoid addressing an uncomfortable truth.

Your post is Bullshit.

The 9/11 guys were drinking and trying to hire prostitutes the night before.

Stop rationalizing away truth.

[840high]

53. +1

[frogmarch]

46. No true Scotsman...er, Salafi Jihadi

[Throd]

48. Ah, the old "No true Salafi" angle.

[MisterP]

50. so Bataclan and Brussels weren't IS either?

their HQ was a gay bar, they were known for being drunk and stoned out of their gourds 24/7, had sex all friday and ham all Ramadan long; they didn't so much as own a Quran

frankly this is common in death squads and cell organizations: empty out what they're "fighting for" to a mere cliche like "defeating Communism" or "defending Islamdom"

the problem with a real zealot is that they internalize all these standards you're carefully instilling into them--they have a cause, they have judgement, they have criteria of their own, and that might minimize the damage of terror tactics and break the absolute isolation the cell system relies on

if we cut out the drunk and drugged-up, then IS consists of like 60 people

[David__77]

54. I think some people want to move this incident as far from "Islam" as they can.

It strikes me as very reactive and defensive.

[arely staircase]

57. Didn't the 9/11 hijackers party in a strip club in the days leading up to the attacks? nt

[Aerows]

58. He pledged himself to ISIS.

If someone tells me who they are, then goes out of their way to prove it, I believe them.

[MelSC]

59. The men responsible for crashing the planes during 911

All drank and frequented strip clubs...

[ileus]

61. So are we changing our mind about him just being a mad gay gun nut?