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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAnother tragedy in Orlando: Alligator drags 2 year old into the water at Disney World
Hours after the Tuesday night attack, the toddler was still missing despite a frantic overnight search to find him.
The child was "wading just in the water along the lake's edge at the time that the alligator attacked," Orange County Sheriff Jerry Demings said.
The family of four -- parents, the boy and his 4-year-old sister -- is on vacation from Nebraska, Demings said. They arrived Sunday.
They watched as the alligator attacked the toddler at the Seven Seas Lagoon.
"The father actually went into the water to wrestle his son from the grips of the alligator," he said. The father suffered minor scratches on his hand, but was unsuccessful in getting his son back.
The mother also went into the water, trying to find her child, he said.
"The sad reality of it is it's been several hours and we're not likely going to recover a live body," Demings said.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/15/us/alligator-attacks-child-disney-florida/
They have been searching all night, even using sonar. They haven't been able to find the gator nor the child. Police, rescue divers, and professional alligator trappers are still searching.
The child was wadding in the water in an area where there are "No Swimming" signs posted.
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FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)and Disney will be killing a whole bunch of gators.
Gators are endangered species act success story. From being hunted to near extinction, back to being common sights again here in Florida again.
I suspect this attack will make many communities in Florida request more trappings and gator killings.
Doremus
(7,261 posts)There are 'no swimming' signs posted everywhere. People do walk or sit along the sandy shorelines though, which is probably what this family was doing, though it's hard to tell because the news coverage makes it sound like the child was actually in the water. If he was, they either didn't see or ignored the warning signs. I hope Disney will be revisiting their beach safety protocol and make it less likely for such a thing to ever happen again.
Such an unthinkable tragedy.
Amaril
(1,267 posts).....by yesterday afternoon. Now that the child's body has been recovered, I doubt they will kill anymore.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)I know part of it is due to media already being there en mass (since Grimmie's shooting, and then the Pulse shooting, so, well, they are jumping on covering incidents in the city). But damn.
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)rule #1 in florida.....
BlueMTexpat
(15,365 posts)that responsible parents would not let their two-year-old wade in an area where "No Swimming" signs were posted. 
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)I lived 5 years in florida and many foolish people lost their dogs to gators when they took them on walks around our lagoon in our subdivision....it happened all the time....people are stupid...never forget and stupidity results in tragedies
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)At my old job customers could not even see signs right in front of their faces, I've become convinced that a large % of Americans are incapable of reading signs.
BlueMTexpat
(15,365 posts)believe that sign warnings are intended for everyone else to follow.
randome
(34,845 posts)The human mind has trouble processing a glut of information. Of course I have no idea where this 'No Swimming' sign was posted nor what other distractions may have surrounded it. But if it was displayed in such a manner as to blend in with its surroundings, then I have some sympathy for people who fail to heed it.
It's the same thing with far too many websites. Too many flashing colors, bad layout and it becomes difficult to see what's right in front of you.
MosheFeingold
(3,051 posts)In fact, there are chairs there.
(I've stayed at the Grand Floridian a number of times.)
No warnings about alligators anywhere. They rent little SeaDos to go boating in this lake, which I've also done and my little grandkids splashed around in the middle of the lake (with life vests) off of a little party barge they take you off for the express purpose of playing in said lake.
adigal
(7,581 posts)Probably not, as I assume they are white.
adigal
(7,581 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)adigal
(7,581 posts)How is that different than a woman who lost touch with a toddler for a minute? I can see that happening before I'd allow my toddler to swim where it says No Swimming.
B2G
(9,766 posts)He was wading in inches of water 1-2 feet from the edge of the shore. On a sand beach with beach chairs on it.
Get out a ruler.
adigal
(7,581 posts)and I'm really aware of alligators, so there is NO WAY my kids would have been anywhere near the water. Gators will come out of the water and grab people. But I also think the resort is at fault for not posting a big-ass picture of an alligator right under the No Swimming because not everyone is as neurotic as I am.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)They make a big deal about it being a man-made lake and beach there.
Absent some information about alligators, to people who wander in from the airport from all over the world with more knowledge about Mickey Mouse than Florida wildlife, Disney was pretty much begging for this to happen.
I cannot even begin to imagine the extent of therapy these people are going to need.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)You saw that Florida wildlife officials have had nothing but praise for the way Disney handles gators on their property.
Florida is loaded with man-made lakes and canals. "Man made" does not equate to a swimming pool. The lake would be reasonably expected to have snakes, fish, frogs, and gators.
They are located in Florida.They ask for this to happen as much as they ask for guests to get heat stroke and for guests to have heart attakc in rides.
Do actual math - 23 gator related deaths in Florida in 42 years. No deaths of that sort at WDW in its 45 year existence. You are talking about an event as likely as a lightning strike.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)and the signs don't warn of gators, they just specify 'no swimming.'
The family is from out-of-state, so may have thought the "no swimming" signs were due to lack of lifeguards. Especially given the proximity of the lagoons to the housing. People from the north (like me) don't generally know what areas are 'prone' to have gators. I know people swim at beaches down in Florida.
Until now, I would have expected warning signs re: gators. Certainly if I was staying at a "high end" Disney resort I wouldn't have been thinking, "gee, there could be gators in that pond." I would have expected that Disney kept its mad-made pond free of dangerous animals.
The orangutan situation was different in that there is no question that a 15 foot drop into a moat is unsafe, the orangutans were visible for all to see and the signs indicated there were orangutans there. So there was no question of potential danger.
And btw, other than the witnesses and those directly involved, nobody knew the color of the mother when they started lashing out. It wasn't until she outed herself on facebook that the vast majority of people learned any details about her.
Also, back when the little boy was killed by the painted dogs at the zoo, there wasn't a lot of mercy for that (white) mother either, after she ignored the signs and lifted her son onto the railing.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Gators are everywhere in Florida where there is fresh water.
Now crocs sometimes showed up in the Keys because they can tolerate salt/brackish water, but unusual to hear of attacks.
When I lived in Orlando, I kept my dogs away from any fresh water areas. I saw many, many gators when I lived there.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)for a week at Epcot Center and Disneyworld. I had absolutely no idea that gators were that ubiquitous. Somehow I only thought they were in the southern/Everglade/swamp areas. I know I wouldn't have suspected a resort with a man-made pond to have them, and not in central Florida.
A place like that -- tourists with small children and toddlers from all over the world -- really should have warning signs.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)That ain't swimming. It's not even wading.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)Just as someone in the mountain West knows leaving groceries in a car can invite a bear.
Disney does everything they can to spot, remove, and relocate alligators and other nuisance wildlife. It's not shocking that this happened -- what's shocking is that this hasn't happened before.
There is a segment of society that wants to assign blame and demand accountability for everything. The reality is that this was an unforeseeable, horrible accident. No different than if the kid had mis-stepped and fallen awkwardly down a flight of steps, or climbed over a balcony railing in a moment when his parents had turned their heads.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)you should at least have signs letting people know that there may be gators. They had 'no swimming' signs, but no signs about alligators.
These people aren't Floridians. They're Nebraskans, and they probably know a lot about the dangers of Nebraska that Floridians would be clueless about.
I'm not from Florida. Yes, I know Florida has alligators, but I didn't know they were ubiquitous; I thought they resided mainly in southern Florida, in the everglades area.
The mountain west camping areas post signs not to leave groceries in a car for people not from the mountain west.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)First off, no one was swimming.
Scroll to 1:45 in this video:
See the playground? See the beach?
I would assume a "No Swimming" sign was there because they don't have a life guard at the beach. That's pretty common.
But this is a man-made lake in a resort at which they PUT a beach there right next to a playground. They put up a "No Swimming" sign, and NOBODY was swimming.
adigal
(7,581 posts)If one of those kids in the video was mine, I'd have nightmares forever.
And that they out that little wading pool right by the lake- the carelessness that Disney showed with that boggles the mind.
JustAnotherGen
(31,780 posts)
csziggy
(34,131 posts)It's not safe to play golf in Florida, either!
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Having lived in Florida for years, I've fished my fair share of snakes out of pools. They can go in lakes too. Tons of snakes in Florida.
I had a neighbor once who found a snake under their kid's bed! Luckily it was non-poisonous and no one got bit. But that's the stuff you get in nightmares.
csziggy
(34,131 posts)During the summer - since no one had air conditioning, her house up the hill above a lake with big ceiling fans and screened porches was the best place to be. The lake, Eagle Lake, was known for clear water. When my grandmother's house was moved there in the mid 1950s, she had a section of the shore cleared of growth and my grandfather had clean sand from the phosphate mine he managed delivered to make a beach.
We knew there were gators in the lake and water moccasins but it didn't worry us. My older sisters once had a contest to see who could swim all the way across the lake and back. It was a good sized lake so that was a long swim!
Here is Eagle Lake: http://www.polk.wateratlas.usf.edu/lake/default.asp?wbodyid=160715&wbodyatlas=lake Grandmother's house was on the east side of the middle upper lobe of the lake. The lake is actually made of a series of huge sinkholes as are many of the round freshwater lakes in Central Florida.
One after noon the four of us and our five cousins were swimming when Dad called out to us from the shore. He told us to stay quiet and not swim towards the shore. A water moccasin was cruising between us and the beach. No big deal - we knew to leave snakes alone. None of us were traumatized by the event.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)It works keeping the snakes away from my home. Quite a miracle in fact. Some say it will make the outside smell of moth balls but it doesn't.
forgotmylogin
(7,520 posts)It's rare, but coastal areas have lots of inland water. My apartment in Miami was frequented by sea turtles and jellyfish. Crocs will sun themselves on land.
(I don't recall which are saltwater dwelling - crocs or gators.)
liberal N proud
(60,332 posts)There are signs stating there are gators anywhere the public has access to water.
That said, this is a terrible thing for the family. Can't imagine what they feel.
BlueMTexpat
(15,365 posts)There is almost no tragedy comparable to losing one's child. And that whether the child is tiny like this ... or grown, as in the case of those murdered at Pulse.
But losing a tiny one in such a horrible manner and in a way that common sense on the parents' part could have prevented would be unbearable, IMO. The four-year-old will likely also be scarred psychologically. Yet another tragedy ....
csziggy
(34,131 posts)And the signs only said "No Swimming" - nothing about alligators. Ignorance (not a judgement on the parents, just that they did not know) is not the same as lack of common sense. Disney is going to pay out big time for not warning their guests.
There are a lot of dangers in Florida that would never be found in Nebraska. I'm sure if I traveled in Nebraska, especially in the winter, there are things I could unwittingly do that would be common sense to the Nebraskans. For instance, I have no clue about how to live with snow and ice - Nebraska in the winter would be very dangerous for me!
That poor family. 
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)If you are from an area where there aren't alligators you'd likely have no idea how many
there really are and how they can be in almost any body of water.
Yes, and likely in a private settlement so the amount won't be public.
csziggy
(34,131 posts)They'll do this for a while but so many want to see the water features, eventually that ban will be quietly lifted. Hopefully they will start to warn all their guests about alligators.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)if you've never seen them in action. Gators hunt by being just about invisible while they approach, and then they make a lightning fast surprise attack. Mom and Dad could have been right there standing over the kid, even holding his hand. As soon as the gator gets close enough to strike, it's too late.
avebury
(10,951 posts)that the person should not be aware of alligators. There are stories in the news frequently about alligator-human-pet incidents including the jumbo giant gator on a golf course recently.
A totally preventable incident had the parents exercised more common sense.
csziggy
(34,131 posts)After all, Disney World is an entirely artificial environment. It's really not apparent there are connections to the real natural world that allowed dangers in.
Too often people expect theme parks to be more like Westworld:
At the end of this clip watch out for the horse and the chicken on the tables.
I can't see blaming the parents. They were only a few feet away from the toddler and keeping close watch. Alligators are fast and if you aren't expecting them to be in a location, you wouldn't know to be wary.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)avebury
(10,951 posts)I would never go to Florida thinking that I will never see alligators. Florida is too well know for having alligators and alligators tend to go where they want to do. A company may do the best to protect their guests but even they would be foolish to think that their grounds will always be safe.
Disney does have some responsibility which they have admitted. At the same time, I would expect to assume some responsibility for being cautious of my surroundings. I definitely would think twice of going into any ponds in Florida even to wade and most certainly would not take my dog that close to any ponds. There are been too many incidents of alligators grabbing pets.
http://www.nbc-2.com/story/26420244/gator-sought-after-it-grabs-pet-dog#.V2G84E0UVaQ
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/fla-woman-grabs-alligator-attacks-dog-article-1.2302105
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/07/02/alligator-eats-dog-florida-st-marks-national-wildlife-refuge/29622277/
http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/florida/how-often-do-alligator-attacks-happen-in-florida_/244937313
http://www.kplctv.com/story/32225839/list-of-florida-fatal-alligator-attacks
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/06/17/nuisance-alligator-terrorizing-central-florida-city.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_alligator_attacks_in_the_United_States
3catwoman3
(23,946 posts)On a strictly individual basis, no almost about it - there is NO greater loss than the loss of one's child.
BlueMTexpat
(15,365 posts)but that is JMO - there may be some - very few - others who might not feel that way.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)The resort had a responsibility to its visitors from around the world to warn them.
liberal N proud
(60,332 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Go to 1:45 here:
They've got a playground right next to the beach with chairs.
The idea that, at a resort frequented by people who don't know jack about Florida wildlife, but do know how to drink and carry on as one would at a resort, they would set this up that way is just outstanding.
Ankle-deep water on a two year old is not "swimming" by any stretch of any wild imagination.
If they wanted a lake that people aren't going to stick their toes into, then you don't build a freaking beach on it.
liberal N proud
(60,332 posts)
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)liberal N proud
(60,332 posts)Alligators are wild animals.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Disney attracts guests from around the world, who do not know what attracts gators, and who do not know there are alligators in the resort at all.
A sign that says "No Swimming" is clearly inadequate to communicate to guests that merely walking along the edge of the water is "enough to attract gators".
It is not expected by guests at their resort that they need to study up on alligators before visiting a resort hotel at a theme park.
"No Swimming" does not inform guests that splashing at the edge of a purpose-built beach on an artificial lake at a resort in a theme park could have lethal consequences.
No one was swimming, which is the only thing they were warned not to do.
Perhaps it is not a good idea to build a children's playground feet away from the edge of the water, knowing full well that many tourists who know nothing about gators will have their children within feet of a lethal hazard about which they have no warning at all.
Princess Turandot
(4,787 posts)Based upon the video that AP posted, it's most likely the area seen in this photosphere uploaded recently to Google Maps: https://goo.gl/maps/BAg8D4sE5YS2
There's a 'no swimming' sign, but there's also beach chairs. The kid was only two and wading along the shore, not ten feet out in the water.
Awful.
Catherine Vincent
(34,486 posts)Poor baby.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)inches of water near the shore. Dad tried to pull the kid away, and mom jumped in after the gator took the kid.
There are no swimming signs, but nothing to indicate that they had dangerous animals inside the park that would come chase you down, nor any warning that they were putting people in close proximity to them, with nothing between them and becoming prey.
They had no idea what they were doing, and Disney didn't do enough.
B2G
(9,766 posts)jtuck004
(15,882 posts)for vengeance,
Maybe they are gonna kill all the gators in Fla.
B2G
(9,766 posts)It's about finding the little boy.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)water - easy to do with an inflatable dam - and close the hotel.
But that would cost Disney money, and money is more important to everyone than the kid.
And it wouldn't look as cool and macho dead alligators who had nothing to do with this, to stand as a monument to the stupidity of the people who created a park that dangled the kid like a piece of meat in front of wild animals.
They are destroying ecology for no reason other than their own meanness and stupidity. It won't do anything to help, but it hurts everyone.
NickB79
(19,224 posts)As bad as it is to lose a child, it's 1000 times worse to not at least get their body back for a funeral, or to know that at that very minute your baby is slowly being digested inside an animal somewhere.
I have no problem with them attempting to retrieve the body of the child in this fashion.
djean111
(14,255 posts)So draining the lagoon would have been a quicker way to find the child.
adigal
(7,581 posts)But of course, since we hold dominion over all, we can kill whatever we want with no fear of reprisal.
B2G
(9,766 posts)adigal
(7,581 posts)I couldn't imagine dealing with the remains. How macabre.
B2G
(9,766 posts)It's their resort and I would think they have a vested interest in recovering his body, what with all of the guests teeming around those waters and shores.
Ever seen a drowned body wash up on a shore or float to the surface? Especially after a gator attack? Do you think ANYONE wants resort guests finding that?
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Most people value attempting to return the remains of a dead 2 year old to his grieving family over a dozen or so Non-endangered predators.
How bout you head down here and tell the family "he's gone, eaten. You know, circle of life and all. Have a nice trip back to Nebraska."
adigal
(7,581 posts)Really? I really don't think I could handle receiving the remains if, God forbid, that was my child.
And yes - I do believe in the circle of life and I don't believe we are the most important life form on the planet. Gators do what gators do. Don't swim where it says to not swim. How many gators will they kill until they quit if they don't find that poor boy.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Till they find the remains or the gator experts decided there is really no chance.
And do not think I am in favor of Vengeance killings. If an animal kills a human and the remains are recovered only the animal that killed should be put down. And only if it is determined that after killing a human once it is more likely to see humans as food and thus more likely to kill again.
Have a nice day. As a resident of Central Florida we need a few good days!!
forgotmylogin
(7,520 posts)I'm sure they won't make them look at the body unless they ask to, but just knowing for certain where he lies is a major part of the grieving process.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)This isn't vengeance.
Ace Rothstein
(3,144 posts)They don't want to take the chance that it happens again.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)You know, unlike the ignorant asses that did so.
And if you do, don't stock a hotel in the swamp with alligator food and think "No Swimming" signs are an adequate defense.
Greedy, arrogant, ignorant people doing one more thing to destroy the ground they live on AFTER they have created their own tragedy.
Ace Rothstein
(3,144 posts)There is no place on earth that is immune from nature.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)belonged there, didn't have to murder an entire civilization for a place to stay, or need a racist animator to build a theme park for profit.
Nature is not the problem, not even close.
Ace Rothstein
(3,144 posts)The animals were here first. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?
Takket
(21,528 posts)and they are "ignorant asses" for building it in Florida............. where there are gators everywhere by the way.
Hey i heard a kid got killed by lightning at an amusement part once. the ignorant asses never should have built it near weather.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)adigal
(7,581 posts)So Nebraska people don't?
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)that the area should have had a "Danger: alligators" sign warning of the risk to its visitors from around the world.
How come those Disney Resort people didn't?
adigal
(7,581 posts)on it should have been posted.
Bottom line is their bottom line.
Catherine Vincent
(34,486 posts)Last edited Wed Jun 15, 2016, 02:12 PM - Edit history (1)
I saw the google photo above and it's right at the resort. There's a no swimming sign but no warning that an alligator could come up to the beach either. This is so shocking and sad for that family.
woodsprite
(11,904 posts)At 3am I had to leave our hotel room to walk to the car to get my son's meds.
Such a shame! I know most people wouldn't think of something like that happening on a family vacation - especially at Disney World, but it's Florida and there are bodies of water around. Gators are a given and should be expected by default.
Amaril
(1,267 posts).......there weren't any gators actually living in it, but it connected with several other ponds -- just like the ones at Disney -- via underground tunnels, so we would see gators sunning by it from time to time.
I carried a flashlight in my purse for the sole purpose of shining it under my SUV when I would work late (until after dark) to check for eye shine.
woodsprite
(11,904 posts)We were warned to do the same - check under the car. Thankfully, the rental had a really clean garage so we were able to park inside most of the time. The stupid guy who lives next to my inlaws actually feeds them chicken. Mom had a mother (8-9') and 6 babies that frequented her place last year. I worry about them because she had Dad build a bench right by the pond (like only 10' away), so they could sit and watch the birds, gators, etc.
lpbk2713
(42,736 posts)that if at some point in time other guests had fed the gators. Just to get a cute picture to send back home. They broke the law. A toddler is gone. And a gator must be destroyed.
WillowTree
(5,325 posts)Gruesome reason is that they were looking for some trace of the child in them but so far had not found anything.
I doubt those parents will ever recover from the sight of that happening to their toddler. Heartbreaking.
djean111
(14,255 posts)So I doubt they will find anything right away.
There should have been fences and the water should have been searched for gators every day. Gators travel quite a bit, especially during mating season.
Disney fucked up. "No swimming" is not the same as "Alligators!!!!". In Australia, there are saltwater croc and jellyfish signs all over the place.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,153 posts)It might seem common sense but not everyone always puts 2 and 2 together.
It's horrific that a child died, and also sucks that Disney will probably go around killing every alligator on its property now.
djean111
(14,255 posts)gators. Someone not from Florida does not expect beach chairs next to gators who can lunge out of the water at any moment. I would not expect that even at Gator World.
There is a bird sanctuary right next to my subdivision. Lots of awesome cranes. Lots of pesky peacocks - got left behind when a peacock farm went out of business, roam the neighborhood pooping and looking pretty. But - there are also coyotes, which will snap up cats and dogs, and last summer, during gator mating season, I heard a gator "coughing" right next to the chain-link fence I was walking past on the way to the grocery store. No signs that I can see. This is right below Tampa.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)adigal
(7,581 posts)or BOX JELLYFISH. Just a NO SWIMMING obviously wasn't specific enough for people. They should have had a picture of an alligator on that sign. I bet the parents wouldn't have let that boy NEAR the water if that was there. But then Disney might have lost business due to valid fears.
forgotmylogin
(7,520 posts)Disney fucked up. "No swimming" is not the same as "Alligators!!!!". In Australia, there are saltwater croc and jellyfish signs all over the place.
They fucked up by putting beach chairs and a children's playground near a saltwater lake that is open to the outside world, implying that is a good place to hang out.
"No Swimming" means just that. People will pick it apart saying "oh they were wading not swimming" but swimming means "putting your body in the water". The sad part is if a small boy was splashing around near the edge of the lake, to the croc he looks just like any other small mammal that is normally on its menu who has come to drink at the water.
I'm sure the signs will be explicit now. I recommend "No Swimming or Wading - Danger of Injury or Drowning - Respect Florida Wildlife and Keep Arms and Legs Out of the Water"
Amaril
(1,267 posts).......when I see a "No Swimming" sign, my first thought isn't "gators" (probably because I know that any body of water larger than a water puddle has the potential to have a gator living in it) -- it's the brain-eating amoeba that flourishes in ponds & lakes here during the summer months.
3catwoman3
(23,946 posts)They will not recover from it. They will adapt an go on, because they must, but they are forever changed.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)
malaise
(268,693 posts)So far they've pulled four 'gators out of the lagoon.
I feel sorry for the parents because they're going to live with this horrific death of their toddler for the rest of their lives.
djean111
(14,255 posts)I live in Florida, and I would never assume that "no swimming" meant gators. There should have been more information on the sign. There should have been a barrier between people and gators. Only Disney is at fault here.
malaise
(268,693 posts)I don't even feed the ducks in the pond in my sister's back yard without being behind the fence.
That said I doubt that entered the consciousness of these folks from a non-gator state
ohnoyoudidnt
(1,858 posts)of the dangers of an animal native to the southeastern U.S. for tourists from all over the world. For all they knew, the sign could have been there because there were no life guards. That's no reason one couldn't wade in a few inches of water.
malaise
(268,693 posts)not even the pond in my sister's back yard.
I agree that the sign should have said gators in the water - stay away.
lpbk2713
(42,736 posts)you could walk away with a flesh eating bacteria and know nothing about it.
adigal
(7,581 posts)so I am pretty sure my kids wouldn't have been NEAR that water.
But I also agree that the signs should have been MUCH more specific.
I can't imagine the pain for those parents
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)Last edited Wed Jun 15, 2016, 11:29 AM - Edit history (1)
Seems a "Warning: Do not enter water - alligators!!" type sign is at least what was needed.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)But as someone from Michigan, "No Swimming" does not generally mean "no wading" here. That would be more about the eventually depth of the water, like that there's a drop-off at some point. We obviously don't have gators here.
I don't think they were idiots. They did not transfer their knowledge about water safety to Florida. I don't think Disney is at fault, but I would suggest signs that explicitly say to stay away from the water due to alligators, rather than just "no swimming" signs. It would probably be clear to someone from Florida why those signs were up, but it wouldn't necessarily be to someone from somewhere else. Though I would personally be worried about gators in Florida regardless of any signs.
As a midwest transplant to FL and Disney enthusiast who has professionally wrangled gators, this strikes me as a very sensible reply.
The Disney resorts cover large areas of land, much of it lowlands and swamps, and despite control efforts there should be an expectation of gators in water bodies and runoff areas. I've read some comments about how Disney should fence the areas but that shows a lack of understanding of both the area and gators abilities.
In light of this tragedy posting additional signs seems wise. I don't think either party is 'at fault' in the way many suggest. It's simply a terrible tragedy and hopefully not one that anyone else will face.
malaise
(268,693 posts)
csziggy
(34,131 posts)
Or this:
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)means "no wading or you might get eaten."
But I disagree about Disney not being at fault. They were. Those were man-made lagoons on their property and they were responsible for properly warning their visitors about the potential dangers.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)It was a horrible, horrible tragedy that will haunt all involved for years, and in the case of the family, forever.
I do wish the Disney sign had been more explicit. A case in point....
A few years ago my husband and I decided to visit Civil War sites in three or four states. We went to Richmond, The Wilderness, Petersburg, Gettysburg and numerous others. We were on a self guided tour, with no guides or leaders of any kind.
At one site, we came across a sign that said "Visitors are to stay on the pavement when touring the site. Danger: rattlesnakes."
It was very explicit and left no doubt about the danger we may encounter if we veered off the paved trail.
Needless to say, we beat feet back to the car in record time. I thought about that sign today when I heard the terrible news of the toddler and his family. Had the warnings just included the added risk that might be encountered by wading or swimming...but perhaps now they will.
ecstatic
(32,648 posts)Nightclub massacre, Christina Grimmie, now this. RIP little one.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,153 posts)Like sharks, they don't necessarily distinguish between a small human and other more typical prey. The alligator probably assumed the child for something like a deer or raccoon or duck and did what they instinctually do.
They are truly magnificent creatures and very rarely deadly or even aggressive towards humans. If you go to Shark Valley in Everglades National Park, you'll see plenty of alligators sunning themselves 5 feet off the walk way and there's never been a documented attack.
Unfortunately, Walt Disney didn't seem to bother or care back in the late 60s/early 70s that he was placing his "magical kingdom" on prime pristine Florida natural habitat that included, among other things, alligators. Disney being Disney, they'll go overboard and see that every possible alligator on the property is killed.
Truly tragic and horrific for the child and family involved, but it's also extremely rare and freakish. Before this, there hasn't been an officially documented fatal alligator attack since 2007.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)This lagoon at Disney is man-made. But there are tons of natural lakes in central Florida and gators like to claim them. Locals know not to get too close to these lakes without being careful.
Plus this was at night this happened. It's infinitely more dangerous because you can't even see in the water.
pstokely
(10,522 posts)?
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)And who knows how many dogs have been killed.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Can kill gators in Florida outside of hunting season. If gators are being destroyed it is state licensed trappers doing it.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,153 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)But anytime a gator takes a human an all out effort to retrieve the body is undertaken. I know of no time when the decision was made to just let the gators finish their meal.
Sure as hell not if it were my loved one.
irisblue
(32,928 posts)
Response to davidn3600 (Original post)
irisblue This message was self-deleted by its author.
CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)Chattering and nattering and pointing fingers of shame and blame. One day the collective clucking of their tongues may cause the earth to shift in its orbit and cause changes in people's behavior but I doubt I will live that long.
Initech
(100,036 posts)
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)They need to at least mention alligators.
randome
(34,845 posts)
nolabear
(41,932 posts)Gators are wonderful creatures and parents love their children and this was a chance, disastrous event. I'm so sorry for those parents. Their lives are never going to be the same.
Logical
(22,457 posts)adigal
(7,581 posts)Not the real world. A perfect little world. My kids went to the Jersey shore every summer, where they knew to keep an eye out for sharks when they went boogie boarding out far.
I do think people think that dangers with animals is all make believe. I hate lakes and lagoons in Florida. There are freaking dinosaurs aka alligators in them!! That is where they live. In the water. In Florida. My heart breaks for these people, and I wish they had been warned because they think that at Disney, all is perfect!!
(To be fair, people try to feed grizzlies by hand in Yellowstone Park, so it is not just Disney.)
woodsprite
(11,904 posts)They have those same signs on the beach at Disney's Fort Wilderness campground, but regularly have functions on the beach (not in the water). IMO, being even close to the edge of a body of water like that is a risk in FL. Believe me I thought about gators when I was down there to visit my in-laws (pond in their back yard), when I had to walk through swampy areas of Disney to get my son's meds from my car at 3am one night, and even when walking to/from the beach on little footbridges over inland waterways.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)So I would think Disney bears even more responsibility for arranging for the event in this location.
JCMach1
(27,553 posts)
Whiskeytide
(4,459 posts)... on the water's edge. They knew Alligators were in the water - and probably had a good idea that they had rather large alligators in that water. They invited guests from around the world - guests that might be expected to have very little knowledge/appreciation of the risks associated with water and alligators in Florida.
It is inconceivable to me that no one at Disney considered this risk. How could they not have? Half the posts on this thread smugly say "Well, I certainly know the risks associated with alligators in Florida..." - well, don't you think DISNEY's professional risk management personnel should have been just as "aware" of it, and - since guests are their business - taken steps to minimize that risk? I guarantee there are daily, weekly, monthly and quarterly safety meetings that specifically consider safety risks to guests -- don't you think Bert from maintenance would have said "jeez, I seen some pretty big gators in that lake. I hope one of 'em don't bite somebody" at least once in one of these meetings? Did management just figure a "No Swimming" sign was adequate to alert people that they could be eaten?
And if they DIDN'T have such meetings and consider such risks to their guests posed by the big-ass gators in their lake, isn't that ALSO a big bag of civil liability fail on their part?
Wading in the water is NOT swimming. Standing in 5 to 10 inches of water is NOT swimming.
Holy crap, folks. I'm all for personal responsibility, but what about corporate responsibility? Disney really screwed up here, and I hope this family sues it's ears off! Maybe they'll take some responsibility if they're hit someplace they care about.
mainer
(12,018 posts)Disney had a responsibility to capture and relocate any large gators found within their resort. The place is teeming with toddlers and families who've never even seen an alligator in their lives.
Whiskeytide
(4,459 posts)... people who play in the water in Florida should know better are missing the point. If you go near the water in the Everglades and it happens - yeah, you should have considered that risk. But wading in the water at Disney? Come on.
And I seem to recall that this is a man made lagoon - built along with the resort (I could be wrong about that, but I was there a few years ago and seem to recall that being said). How did the gators get in that body of water? Is it not sealed off to at least some extent? Shouldn't it be? Shouldn't Disney put as much effort into keeping out the gators as they do keeping out people who try to sneak into the Magic Kingdom without buying a ticket (which I understand is damn near impossible)?
And I understand that gators can and do find their way into ANY body of water in this part of the world. I know because I live on the Gulf Coast in Alabama - and they're here in force. But like you said - shouldn't there should be an ongoing catch and relocate program? Did Disney instead promote the presence of the gators in the lagoon as part of the attraction?
I'm just shaking my head at some of these responses. It's the "shit happens" mentality of an authoritarian society - right here on DU. Yikes!
Raissa
(217 posts)Including theme park lands (where you can also see gators) it covers about 30,000 acres. It would be very difficult to keep them out in the way you're describing. Gators can also climb and burrow, getting into fenced and enclosed yards often.
There are also restrictions on how we can privately utilize land and impact wildlife and the ecosystem.
Finally, large gators are trapped and relocated and have been for many years.
I do agree that signage with a visual aid would be beneficial for those who don't realize the dangers Florida's natural environment represents.
Ace Rothstein
(3,144 posts)It would be an impossible task keeping all gators off property. They even sneak into the theme parks. My understanding is that Disney does have a catch and release program for gators over a certain size.
Sgent
(5,857 posts)they try to go back home.
If you have a nuisance gator the state will issue a hunting permit and hire a trapper.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)But, good golly, you can't have warnings about alligators. This is a resort where people are there to relax, and not be scared out of their minds with warning signs about dangerous animals which, with some luck, will probably stay away from all the light and noise anyway.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)People should relax well away from the lagoons where alligators might be swimming.
There are signs in state parks warning of the alligator risks and people still manage to relax in them. Why not at a Disney resort, with plenty of activities that don't involve being on the beach?
By the way, this was a specially organized "Beach night." How can Disney not be liable for not warning its guests of the danger?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)adigal
(7,581 posts)Those others are on a different planet.
It's pretty clear that Walt chose to build water attractions where alligators are endemic and decided that warning people about alligators would be a buzz kill.
adigal
(7,581 posts)Especially people from parts of the world who have no idea of what an alligator is capable of. One would think they'd have nets, or at the VERY LEAST, a BIG ASS sign that gators are in the water and to not go near it!!!!
But Disney is about money, and that might scare the tourists, so no signs about alligators. The price they will have to pay for this boy's life is probably been figured by an accountant somewhere to be less than the money they'd lose scaring off tourists.
Everything in Disney is calculated within an inch. That they didn't have more specific signs was purposeful.
Whiskeytide
(4,459 posts)pnwmom
(108,955 posts)Some accountant probably did a benefit/loss calculation and corporate decided it would be better to absorb the occasional loss than to scare the tourists away.
JustAnotherGen
(31,780 posts)Staying on the property - going into the pools, wading pools, beaches, etc. etc. It's hard to understand that just from the chaos alone - the parents weren't physically holding the 2 year old child.
It's chaos at that huge resort/theme park just trying to keep your eyes on a 5 and 7 year old - but a 2 year old? Who is still being trained to listen to his parents and stay by their side?
Starting there - now we know . . . hold your kids when you go to Disney.
I would hate to see Disney closed down over this one instance in all of its history . . . It's never happened before right?
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)from a fast lunge by an alligator. As it is, the father wrestled with the alligator and couldn't get the toddler free.
There is no excuse for Disney not having proper signs warning of the alligator danger in its man-made lagoons.
JustAnotherGen
(31,780 posts)But I'm talking about picking up and holding. pnw - that place is insane at night. With school being out - even worse. That resort is insane.
Movie night on the beach or not - I wouldn't have let him go. And yes - been there with a 3 and 5 year old. Not up that late though. That didn't happen (the parade/fireworks) until the younger one was 5.
They need to rethink their movie night on the beach activity.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)near the water, but there were witnesses (besides the family) as to what happened.
I completely agree that they need to rethink their "Beach night" activities.
Whiskeytide
(4,459 posts)... but I still find it difficult to believe that Disney, with it's well earned reputation for attention to every conceivable detail, didn't fully appreciate this risk. And with it's resources, couldn't have done something to minimize it.
I think it is entirely likely that they weighed the cost of barriers, looked at the cost of harvesting or relocating the gators, and found it all to be too much or counter productive with respect to profits. Possibly they weighed the impact of scary signs with pictures of alligators with kids in their mouths (which would be necessary at an international resort, I suppose) and found that it was not worth the consequences.
But for Disney to say "we never thought this could happen" - which I'm assuming they will say since I haven't heard their response yet - is just asinine, IMO.
JustAnotherGen
(31,780 posts)They shouldn't be doing that.
At the Caribbean in a closed resort - with no man made lakes . . . I get it. Been to one.
In Florida near man made lakes? No way.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)Whiskeytide
(4,459 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)
flamingdem
(39,308 posts)not "cute" at all like their image.
mnhtnbb
(31,373 posts)Law enforcement is continuing the search with the hope of finding a body for the family.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/15/child-reportedly-dragged-into-lagoon-by-alligator-near-disney-resort.html
I cannot imagine the nightmare of this.
You can't blame it all on Disney, though, but they should have warning signs about gators in fresh water.
I don't care if you are from Nebraska (I lived there for 6 years). People can't always blame the 'other' for not
informing them of danger. There are plenty of ways to inform yourself about conditions that could be dangerous
when you visit someplace that isn't like home.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)and their signs didn't properly warn their visitors of the risk of alligators.
If you're not from Florida, "no swimming" doesn't mean "no wading or an alligator might eat you."
mnhtnbb
(31,373 posts)We knew about alligators and we didn't have the internet or 24 hour cable news networks to carry
every bloody story about a gator attack back then.
So, no, you don't have to be from Florida to know there are gators in fresh water there and they pose
a danger and have been there for over 50 years.
And on top of that, the gators have moved north.
There are now gators on the Intracoastal waterway in North Carolina.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)not just the people who are so smart they don't need warnings.
mnhtnbb
(31,373 posts)rather than limiting yourself to looking for a payday after it happens.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)When you build a beach, within steps of a playground, and invite people from all over the world - with ignorance of many things - to come to your beach in your controlled and sanitized environment which is what these types of tourists are specifically seeking, then you TELL them there are fucking ALLIGATORS in your man-made lake and beach.
You don't hold "movie night" on that beach only marked by "No Swimming" signs. Nobody was swimming.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)Off the top of your head, how many visitors have been killed at Disney by wildlife since 1971? Out of how many total visitors?
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)How many alligator-deaths per millions of visitors? Fine -- we can afford it. Cheaper to absorb a death once in a while than to scare away tourists with silly alligator warnings.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)WDW has been open for 45 years. This is the first such death out of millions of visitors. Would a sign have prevented this? Possibly. However, the odds were about the same of that little boy having been struck by lightning.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)is always possible in a lightning storm, so they take appropriate precautions -- or not, it's their choice.
Good example because it highlights the contrast here.
Most Disney visitors outside of Florida haven't had similar education about alligators. They were dependent on the resort to warn them of the hazard the resort knew about and they didn't.
You cannot say that if there was a posted alligator warning sign that this family would have ignored it. As it is, it was worse than that. This resort (unintentionally) lured people into danger by inviting them to a nighttime "Beach Night." The resort also had tables and chairs set up at the waters' edge. And there was no "danger" sign set up about nearby alligators.
Another guest said that he had observed an alligator earlier that day, and warned a family, and they had quickly left the area. How do you know that the Graves family wouldn't have reacted with caution to a "danger -- alligators" sign? That they would have been on the beach at night -- feeding time for alligators -- if the resort hadn't hosted a party there? Do you think they would have come if the resort had announced: we're having a party but watch out for shining red eyeballs in the dark because this is alligator feeding time?
This family wasn't given a choice -- the opportunity to make their own risk assessment, in light of the knowable risks. Disney purposely took it away from them, a decision driven either by their own carelessness or financial motives. Either way, Disney is at fault.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)Between 1990 and 2003, there were over 120 lightning deaths in Florida. There were less than 1/4 the gator deaths in about 4 times that timeframe. We're talking a rare event. Even standing less than 5 feet from a gator (which I have done at Shark Valley) doesn't mean they will attack. What happened is rare. I find this obsession with assigning blame on the parents and/or Disney to be misguided. It's a freak accident. The kid could have just as easily been killed on the family car ride from the airport, falling down a flight of steps, or from heat exhaustion. I don't see Disney as having bad intent and I don't see the parents as being negligent. Will the parents eventually sue Disney? Most likely. Will Disney settle this? Most likely.
...and seriously -- a visitor knows that Florida has the most lightning strikes in the US but doesn't know about alligators? Next you'll tell me visitors don't know it's hotter than Hell or don't know they grow citrus fruit.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)Most people, however, are not from states where they are used to having to co-exist with alligators. Or that realize they might even be lurking in a man-made Disney lagoon.
Also, the conditions at the resort have changed. In April 2015, some new bungalows were opened up nearby, and the management had been told that guests were feeding alligators from their balconies. Nothing had been done to stop them. This was reducing the alligators's natural fear of humans and making them view humans as a source of food.
Saying that you were less than 5 feet away and weren't attacked is like someone saying he smoked cigarettes for thirty years and didn't get cancer. So what? It proves you took a chance and were lucky.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)...and since I agree with you on a whole bunch of other things, I'm going to agree to disagree and leave this here.
I've never met the family, but Elkhorn is about 5-10 minutes from where we live, and there has been a tremendous outpouring of support.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)Some of the responses directed toward them have been heartless.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,781 posts)It's a huge property; they get millions of visitors annually; bad stuff happens; and they deal with it.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)So state parks post signs about the alligator risk. Disney resorts do not.. They've built the lawsuit settlement costs into their resort prices.
hedgehog
(36,286 posts)a few years back. We were staying in a charming rental cottage and enjoyed getting up early to walk along the little stream that ran through the park. No one in the group gave the slightest thought to alligators.
obamanut2012
(26,046 posts)Near me. Even in broad daylight. If there's water, even brackish water, even in the middle of a huge city, there are gators.
mainer
(12,018 posts)No gators there. Plus ... it's not Florida.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)The body of a 2-year-old boy who was dragged by an alligator into a lagoon at a Disney resort was recovered Wednesday, according to Orange County Sheriff Jerry Demings.
The alligator, estimated to be up to 7 feet long, snatched Lane Graves around 9:30 p.m. Tuesday in a sandy waterfront area outside the Grand Floridian Resort & Spa at Walt Disney World near the Seven Seas Lagoon.
The Orange County Sheriff's Office dive team located the body around 1:45 p.m. and recovered it intact about 2 hours later, Demings said. The body was about 15 yards offshore when it was found in the waterway, which is about 6 feet deep.
Read the rest at:
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/deputies-still-searching-for-missing-2-year-old-boy-dragged-into-water-by-alligator-at-disney
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)Grand Floridian custodian Mike Hamilton was so concerned by alligators occasionally swimming up close to the shore of Walt Disney World's Seven Seas Lagoon, he said he warned managers they should fence off the area.
"There are signs that say, 'No swimming,' but no signs that say gators and everything else in this lake," he said.
Alligators have been commonly sighted at Walt Disney World, prompting both fascination and fear in surprised tourists. On Tuesday night, one of the reptiles grabbed a 2-year-old Nebraska boy playing at the water's edge at the Grand Floridian Resort & Spa. The boy's body was found Wednesday, said Orange County Sheriff Jerry Demings, adding he was sure the cause of death was drowning.
Other tourists reported alarming experiences with Disney alligators, especially at the Seven Seas Lagoon, a man-made lake between Disney's luxury hotels and the Magic Kingdom.
Read the rest at: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-disney-alligator-history-20160615-story.html
deleted my own comment.