"It could have happened to anyone." Mom shares photos of son in spot where gator killed

[pnwmom]

another little boy, Lane Graves.

They left less than half an hour before Lane was attacked and killed by the alligator at Disney's Grand Floridian resort.

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/mom-shares-pics-of-son-playing-where-gator-later-killed-lane-graves-w210462

It could have happened to anyone. That is what Jennifer Venditti Roye was hoping to show when she shared a photo of her son Channing, 3, playing in the Seven Seas Lagoon taken just hours before 2-year-old Lane Graves was dragged underwater by an alligator in nearly the exact same spot.

“I’ve seen posts criticizing the parents,” the Madison, Mississippi–based mom wrote on Facebook Wednesday, June 15. “I can assure you alligators were not on my mind at all when Channing was in the water. It’s a tiny beach, surrounded by pools, water slides, a restaurant a fire pit. I can’t conceive that an alligator would be in such a busy, small space. #judgelesspraymore.”

SNIP

“It seemed like such a safe place,” Venditti Roye — who is also mom to Brooklyn, 6, and Noble, 4 — tells Us. “We were there from 5:00 until 8:45 p.m. right before [Lane was grabbed]. I sat and ate at a picnic table while Channing ran back and forth to the water. We were taking selfies right down there by the water.”

SNIP

The stay-at-home mom hopes people will stop judging the Graves family. “You need to get on their knees and pray instead of pointing fingers at these parents,” she tells Us. “I don’t know what bubble you are living in that you think this tragedy could not happen to you.”

[Journeyman]

1. They were in Disneyland. The only 'gator you expect is a 'croc with a clock' inside . . .

If there's anyone at fault, it's Disney Corp for not posting warnings where they knew they should be, and for denying their guests true safety in pursuit of mythical "happiness."

[pnwmom]

2. Exactly. They're paying through the nose for pretend risks, not real ones. nt

[cali]

3. That photo makes the point. period.

Would I have let my son, at that age, wade ankle or knee deep there even if there were no swimming signs? Yes. Would I have done so, had the sign read, no wading or swimming, alligators? No way.

[pnwmom]

4. Right. "No swimming" doesn't mean "watch out for alligators" -- to most people.

But I guess a lot of us have learned something new about Florida. Even the man-made Disney lagoons can harbor them.

[cali]

6. It sure doesn't to me. I wouldn't have thought twice about

letting my son wade in the location depicted in the pic- beach, right by the hotel.

[Journeyman]

11. The only time I've been in Florida, the mobile home park I was in had a lake in the middle. . . .

I knew Florida has alligators. And I know they can be aggressive. But we were in a park just outside Palm Beach, with a lake that appeared to be man made, with no visible connection to outside waters. But unknown to us, there were 'gators in the water. They swam in through hidden channels that connected the park with local streams, or they simply walked in. My wife and I loved to take bike rides through the park in the early morning. We'd been there a few days before we noticed an alligator resting on the pathway, half in the water. It was then we learned the 'gators were known to lie in wait and drag unsuspecting dogs and cats into the depths.

For that matter, I'd lived in my present home in suburban Los Angeles some 25 years before I learned coyotes live in close proximity and had begun to kill local pets, being so brazen as to attack while the dogs were out for walks in the local parks. I knew there were coyotes and mountain lions in the local hills, but I'm 15 miles from the closest area I'd previously associated with being these animal's hunting grounds.

Truly, and especially when we are in new lands, we only expect the dangers we would normally associate with the terrain we see.

[ffr]

28. +1

According to all the 'Disney is at fault' folk on here, they should have posted signs there too.

I know, let's put our DU activists to work posting No Swimming - Alligators signs in Florida. I want to see how ambitious they are to this ridiculous cause. How many days will they subject themselves to open humiliation about the obvious.

[hollysmom]

103. don't forget they also truckedin a sandy beach and enticed people to use it with events, like

the movies on the beach at night the family was attending. Basically Disney drew them to that beach in the dark with one unlit no swimming sign - no beach not as much a problem. If they left the mud, it would have been not used. All Disney's fault.

[tblue37]

19. An alligator warning sign would have prevented this, because the parents would not have

allowed their kids anywhere near the water if they had been warned that it had gators in it.

[ffr]

33. Possibly true, but Florida's a big state with alligators

How many posted signs are necessary to cover all of the possibilities? Are you going to foot the bill for this or should it just be common sense that Florida has alligators and they are known ambush predators AND THEY FEED ON SMALL MAMMALS!! BTW, humans are mammals, in case that's not common sense too.

Our survival instinct has to kick in some time. There is no such thing as a safe pool of fresh or brackish water in Florida.

Maybe they should write it into the landscape as tourists fly in from above. "This is the captain speaking. We'll be making two passes over the beware of alligators monument in Florida, one for the left side of the plane and one for the right. For those with poor eye sight or hearing loss, we'll be passing around a card in braille. It'll snap your hand as a warning."

[RKP5637]

68. And then the snakes, spiders, bears, birds, crocodiles invading the Everglades, poisonous plants,

all kinds of things. And then the ocean and Gulf have all sorts of dangerous things. I can see why people expect to feel safe in a theme park, but Florida can be very dangerous in many areas to those not careful. There are critters/things all over Florida. Also, lightening is deadly, very deadly. No signs can begin to cover everything.

[ffr]

76. Good luck convincing the lynch mob on here of that!

They want signs and they want them now!! But fail to back that up once you present the enormity of the task to them.

[hollysmom]

104. and mud instead of the nice sandy beach they put in would have kept the kids out of the water.

Disney white wash and blame the parents if pretty prevalent here as well.

[tblue37]

96. It was a family resort with a manmade lake and an inviting manmade white sand beach

running right up to the water's edge, with bench swings and beach chairs near the water. Families were encouraged to bring their little kids down to the beach at night, during gator feeding hours, for "Beach Night" showings of kids' movies:[/font]


[font color = "blue"][font size = "+1"]***The blue circle in this picture shows where the movie screen is placed: [/font][/font]





[font color = "blue"][font size = "+1"]***Many kids were playing on the beach and wading in the water, not prevented from doing so by the staff, without parents being warned that they could be attacked by alligators that close to the water. Naturally the out of state parents would assume that WDW would not set up such a situation if it were not safe.:[/font][/font]

[font color = "blue"][font size = "+1"]***Bench swings and beach chairs were placed near the water's edge (the picture can't be embedded--you have to follow the link to the web page): [/font][/font]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/16/us/alligator-child-florida-orlando-disney.html#modal-lightbox

In myriad ways the resort essentially set these kids up to play by the water, without warning the parents that the lake could harbor alligators, so of course most parents would assume that Disney had made the lake safe for kiddie play, even though it is not suitable for swimming.

Even if the parents know how common alligators are in Florida, most out of staters probably assume, if not told otherwise, that an expensive resort at WDW would have a way to keep them out of the manmade lake and off the manmade beach where the kids play. They wouldn't realize that it is impossible to keep them out. Heck, I am relatively well read on the matter, but I didn't realize that they can climb fences, nor did I realize that they are all over the place in Disney's manmade resort lakes. If I had gone to WDW and had not been specifically told that the resort lakes were full of gators, I would not have expected them to be (though I would have avoided the water just because I know such lakes are dirty).

Just because Floridians know, that doesn't mean that people unfamiliar with gator behavior would know. Furthermore, most people are not so well versed in the minutiae of gator feeding behavior to know that they will lunge out of the water and grab prey, even from several feet away from the water's edge, or that gators are incredibly fast on land, not slow and sluggish.

Nor do most people know that gators have extremely sensitive snouts so the best way to drive them off or get them to drop something they have grabbed is to pound on the top of their snout. The father wrestled the gator to try to save his son, but I am sure he didn't realize that a gator's jaw exerts about 3,000 pounds per square inch of pressure, so it would be absolutely impossible to force the jaws open to save the child. IOW, he needed to pound the gator's snout to get him to maybe drop his prey--sometimes they will actually do that if their snouts are pounded, which is how two kids saved their brother when a gator snatched him some years ago.

But most people who do not live in Florida, even if they know there are a lot of gators there, assume they are in the Everglades or natural lakes, rivers, and canals, not in a manmade lake in an expensive WDW resort, with a lovely white sand beach that seems so obviously intended for kids to play on.

[hollysmom]

106. excellent reply, too bad the parent blamers are not replying to it.

[tblue37]

108. They apparently do not read any of the posts in the threads they post their

parent-blaming on.

They seem to pop into a thread to sneer at the parents for not knowing all about alligator feeding habits and about how ubiquitous alligators are in Florida, even in private lakes and pools, then they either disappear from the thread or just repeat their criticism of the parents' ignorance, without considering or addressing any of the explanations that show those critical comments to be illogical.

Their other purpose, I think, is to pat themselves on the back for being so much more aware and knowledgeable than the "ignorant" tourists they are slamming.

[cstanleytech]

35. Signs only work if people actually bother to read them and even then it's a coin toss

on if they will obey them.
For example, about 10 miles from where I live the state widened part of a road from 2 to 4 lanes and they have signs posted for all traffic to keep right except to pass but at least 50% of the cars (including the deputies for the county) ignore it and just keep right on going in the left lane.

[Mariana]

77. If there had been signs, and the parents had ignored them

the conversation would be very different, wouldn't it?

The parents did obey the signs that were present. The child was not swimming.

[cstanleytech]

82. You mean like how Stefaan Van Turnhout obeyed similar signs?

[hobbit709]

59. Don't bet on that

There was an incident in Australia where a couple on a cabin boat cruise tied up in a cove and were never heard from. When Air/Sea Rescue found the boat there were two piles of clothes on the deck. The post sticking out of the water they tied up to had a 6 foot square sign saying "NO SWIMMING, CROCODILES"

[ffr]

5. History - It could not have happened to me.

Alligators and other reptiles have called the waters in Florida home since the Paleocene Epoch. I know it's hard for us to imagine the time scale of that, but it's even before our ancestors were swinging from trees.

I've been to Florida several times and it doesn't take a safety video to educate me on the history of Florida's biodiversity. Not once would you find me getting close to anything other than a pool or ocean that I could see into. Locals advise against going near ponds or lagoons as well. They know!

Should it not be incumbent upon the parent to know better when planning a visit to an area where large predatory animals coexist? They don't post signs in Cancun either, but you don't see people wading into or swimming in the lagoons there.

I hope the Graves family plans on bringing Winter clothes on next December's vacation to Alaska. Or does someone need to inform them that we live on a planet that has a tilted axis and seasons?

A shame that this happened, but also because five native alligators, through no fault of their own, were killed in the process.

[pnwmom]

7. You've been to Florida several times. This family from Nebraska hadn't.

And they thought all the risks at Disney were just pretend. In fact, that's why they pay money to go there instead of to the state parks.

In Disneyland they have lagoons, too. But the scary pirates are all fake.

P.S. There is no shortage of alligators in Florida. They're on the Endangered Species list because they resemble an endangered croc. So when Disney trackers find alligators in their lagoons, they have the state's permission to kill them.

[ffr]

12. I'm confused by your analogy.

I don't live in Florida. Like them, I've visited. But unlike them, I educated myself on the dangers of visiting a place where there are large wild predatory animals.

I suppose if they put a Disneyland on the Moon, where space is pretend, they should inform have to make signs that say, there's no food or water or air to breath, so visitors might want to consider that? Survival should always be in the back of your mind, regardless of what adventure or vacation you've paid money for.

[pnwmom]

14. Well, you're just so much smarter than they are.

Keep patting yourself on the back if that makes you feel safer.

They trusted Disney to at least warn them if Disney knew there were alligators in their man-made lagoons, and Disney failed.

You wouldn't have. Goody for you.

[ffr]

21. Don't go ad Hominem on me!

There are certain risks we have to accept as part of life. Ignorance of your surroundings is one of the defining attributes of becoming a victim of survival of the fittest.

Attacking me won't change the fact that this family was presented with a situation for which they should have educated themselves. Similar if they let their child wander a loaded subway car in New York, because they wanted to experience subway riding. After all, Nebraska doesn't have those either.

[pnwmom]

27. Disney failed in its legal obligation to warn them of a risk that wasn't obvious

to anyone who wasn't familiar with alligator habits in Florida. Not only that, the resort elected to lure vulnerable guests to the waterside at night-time -- prime alligator feeding time.

The subway analogy is beside the point. You can SEE if a subway is "loaded." You can't see, in the dark, if an alligator is lurking a few feet under the surface.

[cstanleytech]

37. So does this mean that a resort located right on the beach in Hawaii with its

own private beach is liable if a guest is attacked and killed by a shark while swimming in the ocean if the resort failed to put up signs warning that there could be sharks in the water?

[pnwmom]

43. Sharks are in all the oceans. Alligators are not universal in man made ponds

or even Disney "lagoons." Disney draws visitors from other states and from around the world who would never expect to find an alligator in a Disney lagoon -- anymore than we would expect to find genuine pirates at Disneyland.

[melman]

52. You keep harping on this man-made thing

Do you think the alligators know the difference between man-made and 'real' lakes?

“The worst thing you could do is wade into water, in any lake or pond in the state of Florida at 9:20 in the evening, especially in the warmer months like now,” said wildlife biologist Joe Wasilewski.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/environment/article83914877.html#storylink=cpy


It says any. It does not make an exception for man made.

[pnwmom]

54. They don't. But many tourists, including this family from Nebraska,

don't realize that. We have man-made lakes and ponds in some developments in my state -- and they even have to stock them with fish.

[cstanleytech]

55. So Disney is at fault for people not educating themselves that Florida has alligators?

[pnwmom]

58. Disney is at fault for not disclosing a non-obvious risk. nt

[RKP5637]

70. I agree, in a theme park like Disney, signage should have been there because many people are naive

and expect to feel safe in a theme park or be warned. The 'no swimming sign' to many would be like a 'get off my lawn sign.' And many people are tourists and likely have no conception of the dangers in Florida.

[ffr]

74. We've covered this. Alligators are an ambush predator

They've called Florida home from a time before our ancestors were swinging from trees. At some point, survival should be the most important priority in a parent's mind. These parents failed and continue to double down on being the victim here of someone else's lack to educate, when it is they who should have educated themselves. No putting the genie back in the bottle on that one.

[pnwmom]

79. It is the owner's legal duty to warn guests of of non-obvious dangers

that the owner is aware of.

It is not the legal duty of Disney tourists to "educate" themselves about the wildlife that may be present in Disney resorts.

[Doremus]

116. Disney is at fault for inviting children to play near lethal wild animals.

Seriously, the parent-blaming in this thread is ridiculous.

Of COURSE Disney is to blame. They put the beach there, they placed chairs on it, they showed cartoons there.

Families pay big money to stay at their resorts and they should be somewhat assured in doing so that they aren't placing themselves in danger from alligators any more than they are from faulty ride equipment, food poisoning or any other preventable hazard.

[cstanleytech]

118. Not necessarily.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/15/opinions/hotels-may-avoid-liability-alligator-attack-danny-cevallos/

The ferae naturae doctrine really only says that a resort or other landowner is not automatically liable for what wild animals on the property may do, but only so long as the animal is native, and the landowner didn't keep the animal as a hotel pet.



Gators are native to all of Florida so the parents need to probably prove the park management and not guests were providing the gators food thus keeping them as pets to really have a good case but otherwise.............I wouldnt be willing to wager money on the case in favor of the mother and father winning.

Edit: Of course there is

"It's important to note that this wild animal doctrine certainly does not provide blanket immunity to a resort in a situation like this. Florida courts recognize that landowners may be negligent if they know or should know of an unreasonable risk of harm posed by an animal on their premises, and cannot expect patrons to realize the danger or guard against it."

But thats going to be difficult to prove since the lawyers for the family would have to essentially prove that both parents were uneducated that gators are native to florida and given the fathers job thats going to be hard to do.

[Doremus]

124. Trying to defend the indefensible

Many words, little substance. I have more productive things to do than read such nonsense.

Have a good day.

[cstanleytech]

125. No, merely pointing out that Disney does have a potential defense under the law itself

and if you dont like the fact that they have such a potential defense thats not my problem, its yours.

[cstanleytech]

53. That argument only works if Disney specifically made a claim to keep out alligators

or if it was the Disney park in France or in California but this Florida which is well known to have such a large alligator population that is located throughout the entire state and they even have a football game event held called the Gator Bowl.




http://www.defenders.org/american-alligator/basic-facts

Population

An estimated 5 million American alligators are spread out across the southeastern United States. Roughly 1.25 million alligators live in the state of Florida.

Range

American alligators occur in Florida, southern Texas, Louisiana and parts of North and South Carolina, Georgia and Alabama. The majority of American alligators inhabit Florida and Louisiana. However, the alligator’s range appears to have been increasing northward in the last few years. The United States is the only nation on earth where both alligators and crocodiles live together.

[pnwmom]

57. Disney resort had a legal obligation to disclose any risk that wasn't obvious.

And to many out of state visitors, the risk wouldn't have been obvious.

Also, Disney contributed to putting this family at additional risk.

One, they knew that other visitors in the new bungalows were feeding alligators, which drew more alligators into the area and caused them to regard humans as a source of food. Disney knew this was happening and, according to their staff, did nothing to stop it.

And two, they held a social event at night on the waterside -- at prime alligator feeding time.

[cstanleytech]

61. Well we will just have to wait and see then, my money is on disney prevailing in the end

if it goes court though it will probably be via appeal.

[ffr]

75. I think Disney will want this to be cleared up and will pay.

No matter what though, this family was hugely contributory to their son's death. As sad as that sounds. They failed to protect their offspring and no amount of financial reparations will ever bring their son back to life.

[JI7]

30. what's with the lame ass comparisons ?

[JI7]

25. what a lame comparison

[cali]

9. I couldn't disagree more. This isn't the Ding Darling Preserve on Sanibel

or the Everglades.

All Disney had to do was post signs saying there are alligators in the lagoons, don't feed them and don't wade.

[ffr]

15. I couldn't disagree with you more

Your belief system is naive.

Disneyland/World built their park in Florida, a known geographical habitat for alligators. Who was there first? By 37 million years, the alligators.

To assume, just because you're a few miles from known alligator habitat or because you're on a theme park property that alligators, native to that region, couldn't possibly find a way to a large lagoon and this somehow makes you and your family immune to the realities of the World, is by definition naive.

[cali]

23. Lots of people are naive. Posting signs that spelled out that there are alligators

and warning people not to feed them is just common fucking sense and being responsible. Look, employees had been warning management for years. So had visitors. They continued to ignore the problem.

People from all over the world go there. It's the height of irresponsible idiocy to assume that everyone who visits is aware that there are alligators in areas that look like the one in the pic posted in the OP.

[JI7]

32. And the fact that people were warning them shows that it was something many did not expect to see

[pnwmom]

44. But the state parks and national forests in Florida DO post alligator warning signs.

The least Disney should have done was post the same warning signs that are posted on the wild waterways -- since Disney's lagoons are, unknown to most visitors, connected to those waterways.

Instead, Disney elected to give the impression that their resort was safer than the much cheaper facilities in the state parks.

[ffr]

47. Then you're advocating they post signs everywhere

Because that's where wild animals go. THEY GO EVERYWHERE.

You should put your money where you passion is on this subject and head to Florida. I'm sure Disney could use the help posting signs, as the Florida Wildlife Conservation Commission commented to the WP, everywhere.

[pnwmom]

51. I'm saying at the very least that they should have done what they FINALLY did:

replace all their "no swimming" signs with signs that warned of alligators.

But it took this tragedy to bring this about.

[blue neen]

80. If Disney can't handle keeping its customers safe from predatory alligators,

then Disney shouldn't have built a childrens' resort in the middle of the alligators' home.

Disney knew the risks long before anyone else, even you, did.

[WhisCo]

98. Amen.

I wish Disney was more responsible. Couldn't they have just removed the alligators and relocated them? I understand they may have to shoot the ones that return after relocation. But that's better than allowing some poor child to be mauled to death by a glorified lizard.

[fishwax]

91. Disney apparently already had signs posted. They just didn't say anything about alligators.

Why did they have the No Swimming sign? Because they knew that alligators might easily come into the lagoon?

Would posting a "Beware of Alligators -- No Swimming or Wading" really be more difficult than posting the "No Swimming" sign?

[phylny]

97. Perfectly stated, and my thought as well.

Why the "no swimming" sign? Because there weren't lifeguards? No, because if that were the case, the sign would have read, "Swim at your own risk - no lifeguards present." No, Disney knew perfectly well why people shouldn't swim - alligators.

Here when people visit our lakefront home, I tell them to look down as they walk, to put their flotation devices/swim toys and chair cushions in the dock house instead of leaving them on the dock, I tell them all children need a life jacket on the dock, and I tell them to keep an eye on their dogs. Yes, people know kids can drown, but they don't have the experience to really *know* what I know - we have an occasional copperhead snake just passing through, frequently a gust of wind or a good breeze will sweep everything into the lake, that every year, some kid falls into the lake from a dock (just had one a few weeks ago who was thankfully resuscitated) and that dogs have been known to swim under floating docks and get stuck and drown.

People know you can drown in water, but those not familiar with lakefront living don't think about all the possibilities. I'll confess that I've been to Florida many times, and I've seen "Beware of snakes/alligator" signs many places and beware I do. I wouldn't have thought twice about alligators in a Disney lagoon if there hadn't been a posted sign, because it's not part of my everyday reality.

[hollysmom]

107. at this point I have to ask if you are a Disney employee, you seem so

determined to ignore the facts of the case and blame the parents, it just seems odd you are so determined onthis subject.
If a kid drowns in a pool in my back yard and I don't have a fence, I am at fault for an attractive nuisance, Disneyworld is an attractive nuisance and are responsible for this. They truckind in the sand, they lured people to the beach with children. the facts are clear.

[ffr]

109. I'm sorry, your post doesn't warrant a response.

Have a nice day.

[Gormy Cuss]

20. Disney sells family safe resort. This family wasn't on a swamp tour.

I've been to Florida several times too. Even some municipal parks had signs warning of gators in their waterways.

I stayed at an ocean side hotel in Northern CA. It's the only place in the state to have been inundated by a tsunami -- only once. The hotel literature talked about tsunami evacuation, there were signs in the guest rooms, and signs on the streets point to tsunami evacuation routes.

In San Francisco there is a beautiful, long public beach at the western edge of the city. The ocean looks calm and inviting much of the time but there are dangerous rip currents not far from shore. At every stairway entry there is a large sign stating "Danger -- Rip Currents -- People Swimming and Wading Have Drowned Here" with an accompanying scary graphic.

That's how responsible public and private entities alert visitors to dangers in seemingly benign areas.

Disney had only a "No Swimming" sign in spite of the fact that some staff were concerned about the danger to unsuspecting guests and there has been incidents on Disney property in the past. At a minimum Disney owed its guests more explicit warning signs and warnings in resort rooms.

[Hekate]

39. Damn right. I don't understand -- at all -- the self-righteous victim blaming going on here ...

...by one person, who keeps doubling down.

Disney has a responsibility, which they have shirked egregiously.

[ffr]

71. Fallacy ad populum

It is you who is doubling down. You have failed to rebut my proposition. Appealing to popularity does not change make you right.

You feel Disney is responsible. Fine. How do they go about bringing this family's child back? It wouldn't be education. Because the family's own statement on the incident says that it could have happened to anyone. Yet, that is completely not true and only goes to show that these people still don't understand the peril they presented to their little boy. If anything, it sounds like that if they had the opportunity to do it all over again, they'd do nothing different.

[kentauros]

123. I have learned from DU's outdoors' culture

that it would be better overall for the human race these places out in nature didn't bother with safety features.

[suffragette]

38. Wrong. They do post signs in Cancun and people have been attacked there.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/mexican-man-killed-by-crocodiles-in-cancun-1.2325786
The Associated Press
Published Monday, April 13, 2015 9:44PM EDT

CANCUN, Mexico (AP) -- The body of a Mexican man has been found in a lagoon in the resort city of Cancun, after crocodiles apparently dragged him under water.
Authorities say the man died over the weekend while swimming in an area marked with signs warning about crocodiles.
The director of the city's forensic examiner's office said Monday that the autopsy found crocodile bite marks on the man's arms and shoulders.

[pnwmom]

46. So? At least whoever owned that beach warned the visitor of the risk.

Unlike the Disney resort, that chose to downplay it.

[suffragette]

78. I'm with you on this. I was countering the other poster's erroneous point.

[ffr]

50. Not at Club Med where I've stayed. You could walk right into the lagoon

totally unmarked. From the entrance to the back of your hotel suite. Have at it.

When asked, the Mexican employees, just rolled their eyes. "Don't swim in the lagoon."

[suffragette]

81. They should follow the example of elsewhere in Cancun and add them.

[pangaia]

56. My favorite is, "If attacked, seek immediate medical attention."

[hollysmom]

105. so much self satisfaction going on here. Most people when they go on vacationare trusting the place

the go to mostly wrongly placed trust. I am so stupid compared to you, I visited friends in south carolina and told them I was going for a walk at night. They never mentioned alligators, I had no idea they were in Myrtle beach, but I saw them and reacted pretty quickly. I guess before I pack a car and visit anyone I need to do deep diligence on the area they live in. Now there are very few alligators in Myrtle beach, they just happened to be in this one suburb I was visiting, I was angry the people I visited never mentioned that, but hey that is the kind of bitch I am. My main danger is the skunks at night and I always warn my guests about that. Hate when they get sprayed and try to come in the house.
But if I were you I would have dragged out the guest books to that neighborhood, which was not a resort and done my research - how many disneyland books say keep away from the artificial white sandy beaches? Skip the events on the beach, your kid can get eaten? Or were the books mostly about he best days to go to the amusement park?

The fact that the Disney workers did not take the gators seriously and called the "pet gators" might sink into your brain that not everyone is the genius that you are. Just like people vote for the politician who has the best commercials, people trust the Disney brand. not smart, but what are you going to do.

[CBGLuthier]

122. Smug sense of superiority on full display. Compassion missing completely.

Sweet.

[melman]

8. It didn't just say 'No Swimming'

It said 'Steep Drop-off'

[img][/img].

How do you know where the steep drop-off starts? You don't. That's why you stay out of the water.

[pnwmom]

10. That's not the location in the photos the mother posted.

And she knew the location because she was right there.

Look again at the second photo, where there is a better angle.

[malaise]

13. Disney is at fault

None of them were swimming - and all were unaware of the gators.
They are going to pay not that their money will ever erase this horrific reality from this family.
I can't imagine parents helplessly trying to rescue a toddler from a gator.

[ffr]

16. I hope not. Disneyland shouldn't need to post signs for biting flies too.

And Florida has those too. Dammit! I could have sued the state for getting bitten by those while I was visiting there.

When and where does it end in your mind? How safe do you need to make an area. I suppose if a meteorite bonked you in the head, you'd sue NASA for not warning you that you live on a planet that gets bombarded by 3 tons of them a day.

[malaise]

18. FFS n/t

[ffr]

22. ...

[pnwmom]

31. Your reasoning is the kind used by people who wanted to ban warnings on cigarettes. n/t

[ffr]

45. Define how your analogy fits this argument?

My reasoning is about survival instinct and taking your small child to Florida... Not much to that discussion. It's fairly clear. While tragic, the parents were at fault. Clear as day.

See Florida Wildlife Conservation Commission comment from WP article.

[Hekate]

40. Aren't you special

[ffr]

42. You too.

What is it that you're defending?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

66. Staying at a resort where you can be eaten

sure, a meteorite could land on your head, alligators can attack, bears can attack in the forest. If the public is paying for a vacation in a resort they do not expect to be eaten.

[LanternWaste]

99. pointing out the logical fallacies of others, how do you rationalize the two you've made in this on

As one who enjoys pointing out the logical fallacies of others, how do you rationalize the two you've made in this one post?

[ffr]

100. Which are???

If I've made logical fallacies, I can usually figure them out before I make them. It's not my intent to deceive, distract or misinform. Wish I could say the same for others, but it's not always the case; people get defensive and lash out when they're losing an argument.

My posts should be on the informative side of topics. But I'm only human and I do make mistakes occasionally. I'm fairly aware of flawed logic. I hear it from my republis friends all the time. It's hard to miss.
You should point out my fallacies too, if you can find any. Be specific as to which fallacy I've violated, so everyone is clear. It comes across as sophomoric when you call someone out on something, but can't name what it is you're calling them out on. Don't you think?

[rjsquirrel]

101. dude

This is a slam dunk liability case against Disney. This was private property and paying guests.

You're arguing very stridently. Obviously all parents should be well informed about the local risks to their kids wherever they go. But in reality many if not most are not, and not through any intentional fault of their own. Putting up signs in a family friendly resort near an attractive nuisance for children warning of a major risk or hazard IS "informing and educating" your paying guests.

Disney will be paying millions.

[ffr]

111. Is this your attempt at doing a Straw Man argument?

You seem to already know the outcome of a lawsuit that hasn't been brought yet, so I assume you also know that the Graves' would have read and taken heed of those other unlit signs that should have been there, at dusk or after dark from their vantage point 60 - 90 feet away from their 2 y.o. Their 2 y.o. who wasn't wading in the pool with other children, he as alone in the lagoon, unsupervised, being a 2 y.o., a long long way from his parents. In Nebraska, that's probably okay, notwithstanding the ever present drowning danger, but in Florida, the UoF mascot is a gator? All 67 counties have gators. You're in Florida. Gators are ambush predators that go where they want, where food and mating prospects are. You can try to stop them, your attempts will be futile.

Great! Disney is going to pay millions. Maybe they pay billions and level the entire theme park in the process, returning it to swamp again. On top of that, you can demonize me, if that makes your day, but my paternal instinct must work differently from the lynch mob on here. Mine tells me that my family's safety comes first. I'm not dependent on someone telling me that, nor will I wait for there to be a sign in Florida that tells me to beware of alligators.

SAFETY
COMES
FIRST

It comes first and above vacation time, fireworks, movie night, having drinks with friends, food, text messaging,...you name it. National Geographic seems to agree with that way of thinking.

Start your vacations with a safety briefing.
The goal of vacation is always to have fun. Certainly. But that doesn’t mean we should approach it without caution. At the very least, have a discussion with your kids about some of the situations they might find themselves in...

Ask yourself whether you've picked the right destination.
Not every destination—or every activity, for that matter—is suitable for every child at every age. Be honest with yourself at the outset about whether you are capable of keeping them safe in a particular place or space...

Stress the reality of animals in the wild.
An alligator doesn’t stop being an alligator because you show a movie in its habitat. A gorilla in a zoo is still a gorilla...
-NatGeo.com

So too does the All About Alligators coloring book

[div]Alligators eat fish, turtles, snails, birds, small mammals – just about anything that wanders by.


Children should always have a gown-up nearby when playing near, or in, fresh or brackish water. Keep pets on a leash and away from the water’s edge.


Never wade or swim in fresh or brackish water outside of designated swimming areas.


- Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission

Coloring book PDF

[rjsquirrel]

112. tell you what we will see how many millions

Disney settles for.

You appear not to know the meaning of the phrase "straw man argument" either.

Your passionate commitment to this cause of indemnifying Disney strikes me as exceptional in various curious ways.

/backs away slowly

[ffr]

114. Who doesn't appear to know what a Straw Man argument is?

I never made any claim that Disney won't pay millions as your proposition asserts nor did I ever claim that this isn't a slam dunk liability against Disney. You made those claims. I didn't. You set it up. You struck it down.

Definition of Straw Man
A sham argument, set up to be defeated.

This is a slam dunk liability case against Disney. This was private property and paying guests.

You're arguing very stridently. Obviously all parents should be well informed about the local risks to their kids wherever they go. But in reality many if not most are not, and not through any intentional fault of their own. Putting up signs in a family friendly resort near an attractive nuisance for children warning of a major risk or hazard IS "informing and educating" your paying guests.

Disney will be paying millions. - rjsquirrel

Step back for a minute and think rationally before you type. Your passion exceeds your debating skills.

[rjsquirrel]

117. There there my mad bro

This is not a question of fact, it's an argument over opinion. Gators are a threat in Florida (although a much smaller one than, say, pit bulls or assault weapons). They can be controlled for in landscape design. Disney knew there were gators in their man made lagoon. They took the risk of allowing children to play nearby a very safe looking beach (known as "attractive nuisance" in liability law). Their signs did not warn of a specific danger of which they were aware and notice of which would cause any reasonable parent to exercise greater caution than a "no swimming" sign would. Certainly if they were tourists from Nebraska.

This isn't Yellowstone. It's private property marketed as a resort to families with young children.

I'll lay good money Disney settles for a big sum rather than risking a lawsuit in front of a jury.

You can't prove me wrong. You can only offer rather strident and overheated alternative opinions. Neither one of our opinions matter. The only opinions that will matter are a few very expensive corporate lawyers and/or a jury, Disney's insurance company, and the parents who lost their boy in gruesome fashion.

I'm done so you're welcome to the last word.

Also ETA I guarantee Disney doesn't allow pit bulls or assault weapons on its resort properties. And if they did allow free ranging feral pit bulls the signs would say "beware of dogs."

[ffr]

120. Ad hominum attack on me now

Mad bro? You said that. I'm neither your bro nor mad.

That's two strikes. Care for a third? On second thought. Nevermind.

You cannot even back up your last proposition and you're already venturing off on some Red Herring about gator facts?

Until you have something constructive to say, I'm not going to reply to you any more. Bye-bye.

[rjsquirrel]

121. It's spelled "hominem"

Last edited Mon Jun 20, 2016, 09:10 PM - Edit history (2)

As "ad" takes the accusative case.

I have no idea what you're talking about. The spittle-flecked ranting is impressive though. When you're fighting everyone in the thread perhaps it is time to look within.

Peace out mad bro, ignore actuated.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

65. I agree, Disney is at fault

It should have had fences and signs. Alligators are around in Florida we know, but a multi billion corporation should have been proactive in protecting the public.

[tblue37]

17. Here is the actual picture:

BTW, the fact that so many kids are playing on the beach near the water and even wading in the water shows that they were being allowed to, and parents were not being warned and firmly told not to let their kids do that.

Here is another pic of kids playing near and in the lake at the Grand Floridian:

[ffr]

24. Looks like alligator habitat to me

It wouldn't matter if Disney's family is playing in the water with armed guards in scuba gear observing them, I'm not letting my child go near open fresh water in Florida. And I'd be educating my child of the dangers of how alligators are ambush predators for conditions just like this. NO WAY! It's conceivable that large crowds my ward off alligators, but a lone small mammal by water's edge is an ideal target.

[Separation]

26. Well goody for you

[pnwmom]

29. Thanks for the photos. The comments about the "sanctimommies" were good, too.

Though they left out the "sanctidaddies," and there appear to be plenty of them, too.

[IronLionZion]

34. Are there normally alligators in that lagoon?

Or was this alligator something new that people didn't know about?

If it was a normal thing then Disney really should have some signs up and other precautions to keep children away. Or get gator wranglers to relocate any gators. Gators can get into all sorts of places, climb fences, hide under parked cars and other shady spots, and can be a danger to small children and pets that look like food.

The stay-at-home mom hopes people will stop judging the Graves family. “You need to get on their knees and pray instead of pointing fingers at these parents,” she tells Us. “I don’t know what bubble you are living in that you think this tragedy could not happen to you.”

and then there's this
Disney Employee Fighting Alligator Near Splash Mountain

[ffr]

41. Florida Wildlife Conservation Commission comment

When I and colleague Brady Dennis were reporting Wednesday on the aftermath of Lane’s death, one of the first calls I made was to the Florida Wildlife Conservation Commission to ask about warning signs around bodies of water. I was told that they are suggested but not required. The state has so many alligators – an estimated 1.3 million – that requiring signs would mean they’d be everywhere, obscuring everything. - Washington Post

So to answer your question, 'are there normally alligators in that lagoon,' I'd say more than likely yes. Assume there's alligators in waterways or wherever there's an alligator food source, pretty much.

They're unpredictable by nature, wandering around looking for prey and opportunity.

[pnwmom]

48. At the very least, they should have had alligator warning signs instead of

just the "no swimming" signs. "No swimming" doesn't mean "don't even stick your toe in the water or stand on the sand a few feet away or an alligator might eat you."

A "danger: alligators" sign, along with an image of an alligator (for non English readers) instead of the "no swimming" sign could have saved this child's life.

[ffr]

62. No question there and it's not required by law

All I have stated was that this family's stance seems to be 'this could happen to anyone,' as if, they still haven't grasped the seriousness of their mistake. It's the survival instinct of a hungry ambush predator to find food wherever it may be. They feed on mammals. People should make themselves aware of that.

It's the survival instinct of a mammalian parent to protect their child, so that child may grow up and have offspring of their own. That's the way evolution works. Failure to do so is permanent. No amount of signage or lawsuits or reparations will change that now.

[pnwmom]

63. No. The family that posted the pictures at the OP was a DIFFERENT family.

They are reporting that many other visitors made the same mistake made by the Graves -- proving that the risk wasn't obvious to the tourists there.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

69. yes

[IronLionZion]

87. Following Toddler's Death, New Disney Signs Warn of Alligators

Days after a 2-year-old boy was snatched and drowned by an alligator at a lagoon in Disney World, the company is setting up warning signs alerting people to the potential danger posed by the reptiles.

"We are installing signage and temporary barriers at our resort beach locations and are working on permanent, long-term solutions at our beaches," Jacquee Wahler, vice president of Walt Disney World resort, said in a statement.

The signs read "Beware! There are alligators and snakes in the area" with black silhouettes of each animal.

The signs and barriers come too late for little Lane Graves, whose family was visiting from Nebraska. He was wading in about a foot of murky water in a lake near Disney's Grand Floridian Resort and Spa Tuesday evening when an alligator pulled him into the water. His father jumped into the water to try to save him, but without success.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/17/482534299/beware-new-disney-signs-warn-of-alligators

It's negligent they didn't have these signs before and absurd that some DUers are against posting these signs.

[pnwmom]

88. Thanks for posting this. Yes, they were negligent, and they know it. n/t

[Quayblue]

90. This sign is perfect

And they should have been put these up.

Some bears came through my neighborhood last week and the animal control officer was rolling around yet nonchalant about it. My kids and I were outside getting ready for school and work. We didn't find out until the evening.

My husband confronted him when he came back around later that day and the officer said he'd told us to go back into the house. When?!

I understand us and other animals have to live together... But prey has to look out for one another. I guess. Smh

[IronLionZion]

92. Some DUers are against posting signs for some reason

and they actually seem to want alligators in the man-made lagoon right by the beachfront hotels instead of relocating them.

[Quayblue]

93. I've watched DUers for a while now.

That's why I have as few posts as I do. Choose my battles and keep it moving...

[IronLionZion]

94. That's the best way to keep your sanity around here

[Quayblue]

95. Indeed

[IronLionZion]

60. If Disney knew, then they should have signs

since their guests would be from other places and would not know. It sounds like Disney is likely at fault here and should be held responsible.

[ffr]

67. You should help them post signs then

not for the alligator dangers, but for all foreign language signs around roadways, because people from the U.K., Australia and Japan might not know that we drive on the other side of the road and when crossing the street, traffic approaches from a direction they wouldn't be used to. Better post signs for that and stand firmly with the family whose child walks into the path of a passing vehicle. One for each language anywhere were there's a road.

[IronLionZion]

83. I don't understand your position on this

Many waterways in Florida have alligator warning signs. It's a popular tourist destination.

[IronLionZion]

85. Disney’s policy about warning signs is about to change

Barely a 10-minute walk from the Grand Floridian, at a vacation center for the U.S. military called Shades of Green Resort, a small pond next to the golf course prominently displays a sign warning visitors to stay away from alligators.

But Disney’s policy about warning signs is about to change. A senior Disney source told CNN on Thursday evening that alligator warnings will now be posted on all its resort waterways.

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/06/disney-alligator-tragedy-could-have-been-avoided-if-company-put-people-before-profits/

[pnwmom]

89. The signs include pictures of alligators, which would be understandable

even to people who didn't speak English.

[TheDebbieDee]

36. Bottom line: Whether you agree that Disney should have posted

warning signs about alligators or not - this family from Nebraska is going to get paid BIGTIME! Disney does not want this traumatized family constantly retelling the story of how an alligator swam close into the lakeshore and wrestled their baby boy from them....

I can't imagine the horror of constantly reliving the last few seconds I spent with my child - trying to wrestle him or her out of that alligators clenched jaws! I wasn't even there and I don't know these people but I'm nearly traumatized by reading the news accounts...

[pnwmom]

49. This family has suffered a terrible wound that will never heal,

no matter how large a settlement.

[underpants]

64. Agreed.

I simply can't imagine what they are going through. Not HOW it happened but that it did.

[RKP5637]

72. It's just horrible. They went there to have a good time and instead it was a tragedy. Yes, they will

never heal. Money does not heal people.

[RKP5637]

73. Same here. Every time I think of it I get unnerved. Also, whenever I'm in Florida, I take a

flashlight out at night. I remember well as a child hearing alligators at night grunting in the lake by my grandparent's house. I feel so sorry for this family. They went there to have a good time and it ended in this horrible tragedy. I'm very use to wildlife, but these tourists should not have been expected to be in a theme park wherein one would generally think it's safe.

[tblue37]

102. Same here. I can't stop thinking about it. It is so sad and so horrifyingly awful.

I am enraged that Disney probably made the same cost-benefit calculations that Ford did when it decided that it would be cheaper in the long run to pay off the families of people who died when the Pinto exploded into a raging inferno than to fix the problem with the cars.

WDW wanted to maintain the illusion of the happiest place in the world, the Magic Kingdom fantasy. They worried that signs warning about alligators in the serene lake at their expensive resort might scare off some people, slightly reducing their profits, and they figured that since gator attacks had been rare there, they could refrain from posting warnings--just as they decided that annoying affluent guests paying $2000/night by forcing them to stop amusing themselves by feeding the alligators might cost them money.

No doubt there was a certain complacency on the part of those who ran the resort, too. They are accustomed to the ubiquitous alligators in Florida, so they just didn't think about the ignorance of the out-of-staters who would not be. There have been an incredible number of astonishing posts on DU blaming the parents for not knowing that alligators must be assumed to be in all fresh or brackish waters, or that they can lurk unseen and then lunge out of the water at incredible speed to snatch a child or a pet even if their target is anywhere near the water, not actually in it. Just because those DU posters themselves know that alligators are likely to be a real threat in a WDW resort lake, they assume that everyone from anywhere in the world must also know all about that threat.

If it were not for the power of social media, which has ensured that this whole thing cannot be quickly hushed up before too many people know about it, Disney would probably have been able to pay a big settlement to the family, contingent on their signing a strict nondisclosure clause, and then buried the incident before too many people learned about it, trusting to the black hole of public memory in this country.

My deep, deep sympathy for the family and for that poor little boy who had to be terrified and in pain for his last few moments alive is matched by my rage at what sure seem to be Disney's callous cost/benefit calculations and my disgust at smug people who criticize the parents for not knowing everything that the critics themselves know about alligators in Florida.

[ffr]

84. All about alligators - highlights from the coloring book for children

The alligator...

Adults eat just about anything - fish, birds, turtles, crabs, raccoons, dogs, cats, snakes, carrion (dead animals) and even other alligators.

Can stay below water without air for more than two hours during winter

Stalks prey quickly and silently and drowns or crushes its prey

is unusually maternal for a reptile and guards her nest until her 20 to 50 eggs hatch. She is never far from her young and may protect them fiercely.

Never approach or feed an alligator.

Alligators eat fish, turtles, snails, birds, small mammals – just about anything that wanders by.


Children should always have a gown-up nearby when playing near, or in, fresh or brackish water. Keep pets on a leash and away from the water’s edge.


Never wade or swim in fresh or brackish water outside of designated swimming areas.


- Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission

Coloring book PDF

[pnwmom]

86. Disney should have given that coloring book to all its guests.

Or at least posted "danger: alligator" signs instead of "no swimming" signs.

[Gothmog]

110. Gators can move very quickly and the parents were not at fault here

Parent shaming these parents is wrong. I have seen a gator move in the real world and they can move extremely fast for a short time period. The only way to protect the child would be to keep them several feet from the water edge.

[ffr]

113. Parent shaming aside, how would you have handled the same situation?

The Lane Graves' parents were reported to be 60 - 90 feet away from 2 y.o. Lane at the time of the dusk ~9:16 PM attack. The boy wasn't wading in the swimming pool with other children his age, he was alone wading in the lagoon...unsupervised or if he was being supervised, his parents were a long long way from him, incapable of helping him if he was distressed.

Is that what you would allow your 2 y.o. to do near open bodies of water, let along open bodies of water in a state that has 1.3 million alligators and even more poisonous snakes?

9:16 PM at night.
2 year old boy being a 2 y.o. boy
60 - 90 feet from his parents
wading in water that could harbor alligators and snakes
alone

[Gothmog]

115. I have seen different reports

I have stayed at this hotel and had dinner at this hotel both in December and May. Last May I was at this hotel for the planning of my daughter's wedding and walked by this ares on the way to the wedding planning pavilion. I do not think that the pool area is more than 90 feet from the water and the report that I heard is that the father was close enough to fight the gator for the boy which means he could not have been that far away. Your own link says that the sister was in play pen 20 to 30 yards away but does not mention where the parents where.

A handful of people witnessed the attack and supplied police with information. Witnesses said the family was on the beach, and the boy’s sister was in a playpen about 20 to 30 yards from the water, according to Demings. The toddler was nearby, wading in the water.

The location of the parents is not discussed in your link. Gators can move very fast. The actual attack probably took a couple of seconds and yet the father was able to get to the gator before it swam away. He could not be that far away to be able to do this.

There is a state park near my house with a ton of gators and you are safe is you keep at least 15 to 20 feet from these gators except during mating season in May. If you want to get no sleep try camping with a scout troop during May. Gators are noisy during this time period.

I am irked that there are reports of some Disney guests at some nearby bungalows at the Poly feeding the gators. These bungalows are on piers over the lake. Each bungalow holds 7 people and cost $2000 a night. I think that Disney should have been stricter with these guests.

[ffr]

119. I'll leave this to your deductive thought then

From the news stories I've read.

The father ran and jumped into the water not knowing where the alligator was nor where his boy was. The mother may have jumped in too, but she wasn't injured so she didn't know where the alligator was either, if she did.

The fact that the father had to run to the scene and the alligator was already somewhat gone by the time he got there is substantiated by what witnesses have said about there being an attack and commotion first, then the parent's reaction to run and jump into the water to attempt to rescue their son. The father gallantly but unsuccessfully fought off the alligator. And sadly it sounds as though the boy had drown, but was 15 feet from shore? I think that's what I read. So he might have been able to be resuscitated had he been found. But it was probably too dark to see him under water only a few feet away.

If their 4 y.o was in a playpen on the beach 60 - 90 feet away from the water and their 2 y.o. was wading in the lagoon at 9:16 PM, according to witnesses, alone, the parents weren't with the 2 y.o. And if the father was only able to wrestle with the alligator after the boy was attacked and people took notice of the attack, he was probably more than 30 feet away... I'd gander he and his wife hand chairs next to the playpen and were sitting in those chairs at the time of the attack, unaware of where Lane was. That makes the most sense.

But the Sheriff did also say that charges will not be brought against the Graves' parents at this time, since no laws were broken.

My way of figuring out the timeline and the most probable scenario has me thinking the parents were probably by their 4 y.o. at the time. This is why they had to run to the scene and by the time they got 60 - 90 feet from where they were, they didn't know where the alligator even was, since it was after the initial attack and it was approximately 9:16 PM.

Lane was not very near where his parents were, from what I can gather. I'm sure, simply by the fact that the family has not stated they were with their son at the time, that they weren't even close to where their son was at the time. This information will probably come out once a lawsuit is brought and their recollection of that night is compared to witness statements.