The NRA itself should be deemed a domestic terrorist group.

[vkkv]

I'm a rifle owner living on a large acreage of Sierra Mountain foothills in California, I enjoy target and skeet shooting - this is what I think about the NRA::

The NRA, as an accomplice, supports and lobbies for making it easier for Anti-American extremist groups and potential domestic terrorists to obtain powerful weapons. The NRA itself should be deemed a domestic terrorist group.

Al Qaeda would need at least nine twin towers like attacks each year to equal what Americans do to themselves every year with guns.

USA PATRIOT Act

The USA PATRIOT Act defines domestic terrorism activities as "activities that (A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the U.S. or of any state, that (B) appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping, and (C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S."


Again:: (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion,

[arcane1]

1. The NRA sucks, but so does the Patriot Act. It needs to be repeaqled, not legitimized n/t

[vkkv]

4. Agreed, can we get rid of both? nt

[villager]

12. Exactly. The U.S. needs to be shut of both. nt

[etherealtruth]

2. "20-Plus Years Of Anti-Gay Hate From The NRA"

http://www.mediamatters.org/research/2016/06/16/20-plus-years-anti-gay-hate-nra/210994

While the NRA is ostensibly an organization focused on gun rights, members of its leadership have attacked LGBT people for years, including blaming a mass shooting on gay marriage, calling societal acceptance of transgender people “perverted,” claiming gay people “created” the HIV/AIDS epidemic, and labeling gay people “despicable,” “perverts,” and “degenerates.”

[Zippyzagnut]

3. or a Hate group.

I'd love to see true NRA members who believe in gun safety and responsible gun ownership take back THEIR organization from the Hate mongers.

[hack89]

5. "involve acts ... that are a violation of the criminal laws of the U.S. or of any state"

you missed an important step. What laws are they violating? Please be specific.

[vkkv]

7. No, your point is in the (A) part of the paragraph - that is separate and in addition to (B) which

refers to intimidation and coercion.

Are campaign donations not coercion? Is propagating paranoia and the need for home protection not a form of intimidation?

(B) appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion,

Got it??


The USA PATRIOT Act defines domestic terrorism activities as "activities that (A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the U.S. or of any state, that (B) appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping, and (C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S."

"State" is also addressed in the 2nd Amendment yet pro-2A'ers assume it means 'just about anybody'.

The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

You think pro-gunners in California are worried about keeping California a "free State"???

[hack89]

13. Look at the "that" before the (B)

The logic goes: (A) acts that appear to ... (B) .... and occur in (C)


You have to have all three elements.

[vkkv]

20. Exactly! All three A B & C are included, but read C please, your way of reading it

would mean that mass destruction AND assassination MUST be included in the crime along with the others.. that does not make sense.. there are several 'or's..

domestic terrorism activities as "activities that (A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the U.S. or of any state, that (B) appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping, and (C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S."

[hack89]

24. You don't need all three of (i), (ii) and (iii)

if that was the case, there would be an "and" between each one instead of a comma. It can be one, two or all three - but there has to be at least one for there to be a violation of the law.

[vkkv]

29. Now you are agreeing with me... no argument here... nt

[jmg257]

23. Hmm...let's see...What is a "free State"?

Easy enough: "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government"


How do the States remain free? "The United States shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence."

And how does the United States intend to accomplish this? "calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions"

Which militias will be used? "the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States"

Who makes up the State militias? Then: "each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein..."
Who makes up the militias? Now: "The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age..." & "female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard"


Barring the ageism & sexism involved, it seems like "just about anybody" to me.

Got it.

[vkkv]

26. Seriously? You think that THIS is who NOW makes up "militias"? - if "militias" truly

were the only people with the law supporter gun ownership..


You wrote"" Who makes up the militias? Now: "The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age..." & "female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard" """

Again, who can go out and buy a gun right now? Yep. "just about anybody".
And who are they protecting> Their "State" ? Hell no! They're "protecting" the rest of their gun collection.

[jmg257]

31. So the US Code says...federal laws (and the constitution) are hard to argue with.

"who can go out and buy a gun right now? Yep. "just about anybody". Now you get that there is a connection.


"who are they protecting> Their "State" ? Hell no!"

Agreed, as the likely-hood of the unorganized militia being called forth is pretty slim (that possibility does however exist in US Code, and certainly existed as to original intent).

[haele]

35. So, require membership to a registered state militia or military branch to purchase a firearm.

Totally in line with the 2nd Amendment, both as it was ratified, and as it had evolved through the various forms prior to ratification.
Of course, grandfather clause existing ownership because the resulting tantrums wouldn't be worth it, but after a certain period of time, if you aren't now or were never a member of a registered state militia, ROTC or cadet branch, National Guard, or military branch, can't purchase a firearm.
If you think you need personal protection that much, join a militia and get trained on proper use and handling, marksmanship, and personal responsibility for your firearm. And they'll also be required to run a background check.
Also takes care of a good number of gun show loopholes and straw purchases.

Just something to throw out there.

Haele

[TeddyR]

6. The way I read the Patriot Act provisions you quote

It requires all of A, B and C. The NRA hasn't committed any lobbying acts that would fall into part A, so no domestic terrorism.

The NRA has 5 million members and there are 320 million or so Americans. I don't support the NRA and really can't stand LaPierre or Ted Nugent, but they aren't a terrorist group and blaming them for every gun control setback is silly. The NRA successfully advances its agenda not because of the number of members, which are miniscule compared to the overall US population, but because NRA members are politically active, much more so than gun control advocates.

[RobertEarl]

37. NRA owns several congress critters

And threaten those they don't.

They have guns and money and lawyers. They are very formidable in congress. Certainly more than environmentalists.

[TeddyR]

43. I agree that they are certainly formidable.

But end of the day they are simply a lobbying body.

[sarisataka]

8. More love for

The Patriot Act.

When did Bush ll become a leader we wish to follow?

[vkkv]

10. It is current law.. if it can be used as a tool against the NRA, fine with me.

Since you want it repealed, you must have written your Congressman many, many times by now...

[sarisataka]

21. My morals are not that flexible

Just because something is legal I will not utilize it if I consider it wrong. At one point slavery was legal but I would not have owned slaves.

I view the Patriot Act as an unconstitutional travesty and do not support its use in any fashion whatsoever.

If you speak to any of my Representatives you would know they are well aware of my views on the Patriot Act. Their predecessors were also made aware.

[99th_Monkey]

28. You mean like Hillary and Citizens United? nt

[sarisataka]

33. That is another subject

I am in disagreement with some Democratic leaders

[RobertEarl]

38. Too bad the NRA is for the PA

It would go down quick if they were. But I think they love the PA.

[sarisataka]

39. I don't know the NRA position

But I have consistently opposed it since it was proposed by Bush ll

[RobertEarl]

41. If they were against it we'd know

They don't really care about rights, they just make love to the guns.

[LanternWaste]

11. Allowing bias to reach our conclusions for us is something to rise above rather than celebrate

"When did Bush ll become a leader we wish to follow?"

I imagine that bias can often lead a person to one and only one conclusion despite the availability of many more. Allowing bias to reach our conclusions for us is something to rise above rather than celebrate.

[libtodeath]

9. Not sure what I hate more,guns or threads like this.

The patriot act should be rescinded and gun regulations,restrictions and even removals should be acted on by congress but disgusting legislation should not be used just because we might like the immediate cause.

[vkkv]

14. Okay, but that's kind of weak because at this moment the Patriot Act is law. So, if the

Patriot Act can be used to make a case against right wingers, perhaps they would be more likely to repeal it.

I see nothing wrong with this tactic.

[libtodeath]

18. Hope you say the same when some repuke wants to make Planned Parenthood a terrorist organization.

[Straw Man]

19. Exactly.

Hope you say the same when some repuke wants to make Planned Parenthood a terrorist organization.

I've made the same argument, but there's never a response.

I'm probably on the other side from you on most gun issues, but I salute your insight and integrity.

[vkkv]

22. Geeez, People GO TO PLANNED PARENTHOOD VOLUNTARILY

[libtodeath]

25. They dont join the NRA voluntarily?

[vkkv]

27. Yes, but does that matter? Now, back to the NRA...

The NRA, as an accomplice, supports and lobbies for making it easier for Anti-American extremist groups and potential domestic terrorists to obtain powerful weapons. The NRA itself should be deemed a domestic terrorist group.

Al Qaeda would need at least nine twin towers like attacks each year to equal what Americans do to themselves every year with guns.

USA PATRIOT Act

The USA PATRIOT Act defines domestic terrorism activities as "activities that (A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the U.S. or of any state, that (B) appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping, and (C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S."


Again:: (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion,

[libtodeath]

30. Maybe not to you but to a repuke that wants to ban abortion they can twist the conditions

of the Patriot act to conform to their standards just as easy.

They consider a fetus a human life,they think PP influences policy by intimidation and coercion and obviously C applies.

[cali]

15. I find cavalier suggestions such as yours, frightening.

[vkkv]

16. Isn't the NRA promoting violence? nt

[ileus]

17. I don't understand why Obama doesn't add the NRA and it's members to the terrorist watchlist.

That'd get their goat at the next gun show.

[mwrguy]

32. they sell their member list, iirc

It'd be easy

[DonP]

34. No they don't

They might lease the list for single use.

But a lot of organizations won't even do that anymore. Part of their privacy policy is not making the names available for mailings.

If you want to do a mailing to any organization's membership, first you have to submit the mailing piece for their approval. Then, if it's approved, send the printed material to a bonded mailing house who can use the electronic list for one mailing only.

You just spec the details you want of who to mail to; e.g. name count, states, zip codes, cities, HHI (Household Income) levels, etc.

You never see the list and there's no copy of it available, it goes from the organization (in this case the NRA) to the mailing house for a single use.

[NutmegYankee]

36. You misread that statute - the definition requires portions A, B, and C together.

The NRA doesn't partake in "activities that (A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the U.S. or of any state". It lobbies just like 100 other groups such as the AARP, ACLU, ALEC, ACLJ, AIPAC, HRC, etc.

[NuclearDem]

40. I really hate threads like this.

No, the NRA isn't going to be listed as a domestic terrorist group anymore than Congressional Republicans are going to be arrested for sedition and treason.

[aikoaiko]

42. you're not applying the whole definition.

And I don't think campaign donations and endorsements suffice as intimidation and coercion.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

44. Ludicrous n/t