England should feel the consequences for voting to leave the EU.

[Meldread]

Voting to leave the EU has the potential to destabilize Europe, and cause the breakup of the EU--as imperfect and as problematic as it is this is not just a problem for economics. The EU has kept the peace and stability in Europe. People forget the very ugly history of Europe, and mistakenly believe that we could never return to that history. Nationalism is always dangerous, and will inevitably lead Europe in this direction.

The only way to hold the EU together now is to make this as punitive as possible for the UK. This will be necessary in order to send a strong message to other nations considering leaving, and if it is bad enough for the UK then it could crush nationalist upsurges in other countries because it kills the "we are better off without them" mentality.

The EU should create a special path for Scotland to join the EU should it choose to leave the UK. It is likely that the majority of Scots would vote to leave the UK if they knew that they would have an easy entry into the EU, and support from the EU in their transition. The EU should also assist Northern Ireland in reunifying with Ireland, and since Ireland is already a EU member, this will grant them entry. This will isolate England, and send the message that needs to be sent: leaving has a price.

The United States should reaffirm our support for the European Union, and work diligently to help hold it together while at the same time encouraging reforms to answer some of the legitimate criticisms leveled at it. We should not negotiate new trade deals with the UK until after they have fully gone through the process of exiting the EU, and untangled themselves from the mess they've put themselves in.

I believe, should Scotland and Northern Ireland be given the chance to leave the UK and join the EU, that the EU should also open the door for England to re-apply and join. However, it would require them to fully integrate into the EU.

This is just sickening. The most powerful nations of the EU contemplate leaving, but not before basically wrecking and destroying the weakest EU countries economies with mandated austerity measures. It is morally appalling to basically destroy nations like Greece, who were basically forced to stay in the union, and then skip out after they are in ruins.

The EU needs a lot of reforms and deeper integration. Hopefully, if there is a silver lining, the UK leaving will prompt those difficult decisions, and the EU could emerge stronger and better as a result.

[Kilgore]

1. Nope, don't think so

The EU has a trade surplus with England. I bet the terms of trade will remain as is. The EU countries don't want to jeopardize the cash flow from England into their pockets.

Money talks, everything else is window dressing.

[swhisper1]

6. you are correct

[Corporate666]

19. Give this poster a medal

he/she gets it.

[romanic]

54. Pretty much.

[OnDoutside]

82. Pour encouragez les autres, the EU MUST give harsh terms to the UK, otherwise

other countries like the Dutch and the Danes will think there's not much of a consequence to them leaving either.

[DetlefK]

94. So, you are saying that the UK needs those imports from the EU.

If the UK stops buying from the EU, where will they start buying?

From the US? How much incentive will the UK have to bind itself to another big brother?
From Russia?
From halfway around the planet from China?

[brentspeak]

2. Yeah, let's start a cold war with one of our oldest and closest allies.

Brilliant idea.

[treestar]

102. They aren't our allies any more

Let them be white and poor.

[Hydra]

108. O.o

Nice sentiment there...

[treestar]

113. I'm just pissed

I watch a lot of British TV shows which I like much better than American. Thinking of boycotting that, lol.

[swhisper1]

3. EU does need to be reformed

[still_one]

4. All of Europe will be hurt because of this, but especially the UK

[roamer65]

5. The Germans aren't stupid.

I expect in a year or two there will be "special deal" up for referendum in Britain. The UK will get special associate status.

[swhisper1]

7. probably

[Meldread]

9. The politics of this trumps the economics.

There are nationalist upsurges in countries all across Europe. If referendum could be held today in some of those countries they would likely also vote to leave, likely by even larger margins. For anyone interested in preserving Europe, the political incentive is to make things extremely difficult for the UK. Will it be economically hard on both sides? Yes. However, the people in the EU countries are more likely to blame the UK for leaving than those in Brussels.

This is a political and economic nightmare for the UK. It is also a nightmare for anyone who cares about the stability of Europe.

[sibelian]

42. "the people in the EU countries are more likely to blame the UK for leaving than those in Brussels."

Oh are they, now? Who told you that? Merkel?

[Meldread]

48. Yeah, I just got off the phone with her. We had a pleasant conversation.

[Scootaloo]

93. Unfortunately what you propose would just strengthen that nationalism

"The beatings will continue until morale improves" is supposed to be a satirical phrase, not an actual strategy. All that "punishing" the UK will do is lead to the movers behind Brexit claiming that they were right all along and strengthening support for them among the British. That's how it works. Look at Germany's response to the punishing terms of Versailles. It didn't make the Germans bow their heads and feel sorry, it made them feel like beleaguered victims of international oppression and fueled the rise of the Nazis.

Nationalism feeds off of outside intervention and "punishment." It's a philosohy that requires itssubject nation to be a great nation being victimized by lesser nations. You can't "punish" a nation out of nationalism - if you could, I assure you that the middle east would be a peaceful utopia.

No. the UK will take the fallout from this vote. And that's what will happen. That's all that need happen. Piling on will just make the problem worse and lend power to the nationalists.

[Meldread]

110. I think this is the best argument against what I have written.

...and I see a lot of truth in what you've said. However, I don't think it changes the dynamics of what has to happen if the EU is to avoid falling apart.

The fundamental problem remains: If the EU allows the UK to essentially have all or most of the benefits of membership without any of the downsides or responsibilities, then why should any other EU nation remain in the Union and NOT want the same for themselves?

I don't want to see the UK or its people suffer as a result of this vote. However, there are consequences to leaving the EU, and if the EU is to remain together they are all really bad consequences for the UK. The suffering is an inevitable side effect of what they've done to themselves.

I honestly don't see a way to avoid it, and keep the EU together and whole. So, the end result is likely to be a weakened UK (that is likely fractured as at a minimum Scotland leaves), that becomes ever more intensely resentful and nationalistic.

That's not what we want or what we should hope for, but I feel that we are on this unavoidable path. It's like watching another car speeding toward you, and as you watch it you realize no matter what decision that you make you are going to crash.

[Scootaloo]

114. Well, Britain leaving the EU removes it from the benefits of EU membership

They'll have to negotiate trade statuses, which will invariably be more favorable to the EU than to Britain. See the case with Norway and Switzerland, though possibly even more uneven owing to the fact those two nations were established as non-EU early on, before the EU was a powerhouse. And not just trade status (that's just the most immediate, being the core principle of the union) but almost all levels of European relations will have to be sifted out. Almost all will be to Britain's disadvantage. The US is the last nation in the world that needs to pile on penalties.

As for keeping the EU together... It's not the United States. That is, it's not a single nation made of component states. It's 28 (well 27 now) independent nations in a tightly intertwined alliance. Each is free to go its own away if it wants, for good or ill. And eventually, most of them probably will. Not because of Brexit, but because of history. Nothing lasts forever in world history except China and Egypt - and even those are pretty dynamic. The EU is guaranteed to fall apart at some point, maybe sooner, maybe later, but guaranteed to happen eventually. It's probably better for nations ot voluntarily leave at their own decision, than for the whole thing to crumble under its own weight and drag everyone down, like it came frighteningly close to doing a few years ago.

[Kilgore]

8. Huge opportunity for UK banking industry

London is currently one of the largest if not the largest financial center in the world. Free from EU regulation, it will explode with growth.

There will be no "punishment" to be had, money talks, everything else is window dressing.

[Albertoo]

10. LOL. The City will lose its #2 to #5 position in just 10 years

Wanna bet?

[Meldread]

12. Correct. Already...

...France is trying to position itself to take advantage of this vote. Other EU nations will follow.

[Albertoo]

28. France has zero chance in hell

Financial markets don't mix well with over-regulation and 75% income tax on high flyers

[Kilgore]

41. Bravo!

[pkdu]

52. It will be Frankfurt - bet the farm on it. nt

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

89. I doubt it, Frankfurt is not anglophone friendly.

Amsterdam is probably more English speaking than London is at this point.

[treestar]

104. Sounds like socialism

[Recursion]

76. Paris will be the Martin O'Malley of the fight between Frankfurt and Amsterdam (nt)

[JustAnotherGen]

105. Brilliant!

[Kilgore]

14. See you in ten

But I'm not sure the EU will hold together that long.

[Albertoo]

30. If it doesn't, brace for the worst in Europe

[Kilgore]

32. I completely agree

[840high]

63. Agree.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

15. Look up what "passporting" is and then reconsider your position

The UK banking industry is going to go right back to what it was before Britain joined the EU (and Margret Thatcher). A relic of a dying empire, lots of stately but mostly empty old buildings.

London's status as the economic capital of Europe ended today.

[Kilgore]

23. Think about the tendency of bankers

UK bankers had their national regulations and the ones imposed by the EU. Remove the EU regulations. Combine that with the need for the UK to reestablish itself, I believe the bankers will be have loosened rules. The combination will attract business, and result in growth.

Time will tell.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

36. You might have noticed the bankers were the most strident opponets of Brexit

But yes, it is the guy who whistles Rule Britannia at the urinal who knows what is best for The City.

The financial infrastructure in the UK is to support a market of 500,000,000 people, not 65 million. But I bet there will be some killer raves at One Canada Square.

Personally, I think the English speaking financial world will make their new home in Amsterdam.

[AntiBank]

60. just like the USA mega banksters were the amongst most

vocal opponents of the Federal Reserve whilst secretly creating the whole thing. Just like big business bleated like stuck pigs about so called governmental trust busting and overarching regulation whilst secretly pushing it as they wished to use the government to quash competition. Read New Left historian Gabriel Kolko's classic The Triumph of Conservatism for a superb treatment of the latter.

Don't throw me in briar patch tricks are the order of the day.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

73. The United Kingdom becoming the Hermit Kingdom is of no benefit to the "banksters"

The appeal of setting up in London was access to the EU market and a familiar legal system all in a comfortable English speaking city.

Take that away and you're just in a stagnant post-industrial wasteland. The EU pulled them out of that and now they're plunging right back in.

[AntiBank]

74. you really need to ask the Swiss and my Norse neighbours

if they consider themselves Hermit Kingdoms.

Britain and the world will be better off in the long run. The insanely bloated, overpaid, unaccountable Brussels bureaucracy has my heartfelt condolences as hopefully their end is eventually nigh.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

84. Switzerland and Norway are both part of the Single Market

The simpletons who brought us Brexit who are so concerned about "sovereignty" aren't going to go along with the strings attached that undermine their sacred "sovereignty".

Britain isn't going to be better off, they're just going to be left behind. Britain just bailed out on the post-war economic order. The idea that they're going to negotiate sweeping favorable bilateral agreements with their former colonies and the US is laughable. Commonwealth Free Trade flopped in the 1950's. The British couldn't even effectively negotiate air service agreements with the US and they think they're going to get a free trade agreement passed with the US in the current climate on a silver platter?

[Meldread]

86. The irony of people who support Brexit here is that...

...many of them talk about how the UK will be able to negotiate trade deals. Yet, these same people REJECT virtually all trade deals, and will almost certainly be opposed to any trade deal the UK tries to make with the United States.

These people are fundamentally uneducated and lack a coherent point of view. They are just stupidly reacting to the news based on their knee-jerk emotional feelings on whatever warped view they have of the EU and the UK.

Mark my words, the moment the UK comes to the United States with hat in hand looking for a trade deal, these very people will be the first ones out of the gate to oppose it. They are fucking the UK over ten ways from next Tuesday, and don't give a damn how many lives are going to be ruined there so long as it FEELS like their distorted view of the world is vindicated.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

88. It's why I reject the "trendy left"

Flavor of the week causes, no consistency required one week to the next. #whatever

[yeoman6987]

87. What about the savings from not giving their money to the EU

That alone will save the UK. I think the Netherlands is next to go.

[Mandos the Judge]

100. Netherlands leaving?

As a Dutchie myself I think that is highly doubtful. Not only is our current government unlikely to plan any referendum on EU membership in the forseeable future, but despite our growing euroscepticism I estimate the amount of pro-leavers would be 40% tops at the moment (currently polls say around 66% are in favor for remaining in the EU). Only members of Geert Wilders' populist and xenophobic Freedom Party are highly in favour of leaving the EU and to a far lesser extent the Socialist Party as well, though they favor internal reform instead of bailing out entirely. All other parties are strongly in favor of remaining in the EU.

It would also be economic suicide, since the Dutch economy is highly dependent on exports and tightly interwoven with our neighbours. Economically speaking we've been little more than a province of Germany since the 1970's, so well before the introduction of the euro. Any 'Nexit' would be an unmitigated disaster for the Dutch economy.

[Are_grits_groceries]

106. Nope.

The savings aren't nearly enough to cover the losses.

[Albertoo]

33. ^^^ Hear, hear: London's status as the economic capital of Europe ended today ^^^

I greatly fear you're right.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

40. I'm going to miss Canary Wharf and LCY

But France is where most of our business in Europe is, I know which way the wind is blowing.

[Albertoo]

43. France is regretfully dead

[Zynx]

35. Why in the hell would that happen? Without the same access to mainland Europe, where will they grow?

Their domestic market won't do it. It won't be here. Where will it be?

[sibelian]

37. Exactly.

With the EU out of the way, London's going to go completely ballistic.

These guys do not piss about.

[Agnosticsherbet]

57. Deregulating banks was such a good idea

That it led to the great recession.

[BlueMTexpat]

90. London actually voted

to remain, so the idea of its exploding with growth may not be what you think it will be. The bankers actually backed Remain.

There is this to think about: London to Lose Tens of Thousands of Jobs After Brexit http://fortune.com/2016/06/24/london-brexit-jobs/

Why on earth would any DUer think of this as a good thing?

[muriel_volestrangler]

97. UK banking shares are down about 20%

Barclays 149.40p -37.55 -20.09%
HSBC Holdings 439.15p -15.30 -3.37%
Lloyds Banking Group 56.96p -15.19 -21.05%
Royal Bank of Scotland Group 207.10p -43.40 -17.33%

Of the big 4, only HSBC has survived this well - and the majority or their operations are in Asia, not the UK. Which also makes them the one taht can relocate easiest - it has been talked about before.

EU regulation is also what tends to stop the UK doing stupid things. Left to their own, they do things like the LIBOR fraud.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

11. Europe and the EU will go on their merry way without the UK

And Britain's ongoing decline of the past hundred years will just reach terminal velocity.

[Meldread]

18. I agree, but...

I agree that this is going to cause the continued decline of Britain. However, I think this could cause problems within the EU itself. However, I also believe it is an opportunity for the EU as well. It is an inflection point. Where there is a crisis there is also an opportunity. The EU should take this opportunity to begin reforming itself, and addressing some of the legitimate criticisms leveled at it as well as its weaknesses. Europe could end up even more integrated as a result.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

26. The problems faced by the EU are little differant than our's

The existential threat to the EU isn't a mass temper-tantrum by member states, it is the fiscal problems in the Mediterranean resulting from crackpot governments that put them in conflict with Germany and France.

[Native]

98. You nailed it with this post!

[Boudica the Lyoness]

13. Fuck Europe

[sibelian]

38. Wheeee!!!

[DetlefK]

95. Get in line behind Zeus.

[davidn3600]

17. I would argue the EU has NOT been keeping the stability...at least not as of late

There have been cracks forming in the EU for quite some time. It's finally starting to fracture and the leaders have only themselves to blame.

As for the United States. We will support our own interests, not necessarily the EU's. Britain is and will continue to be our closet ally. We are not going to punish them for exercising their own democracy.

At the current trajectory....the EU won't live to see 2025. Not unless they take on significant reform. And there is no way to stop the current fracturing without solving the debt and migrant issues.

[Quackers]

20. WTF? They have a right to choose their own path just like everybody else.

Saying that they should be punished for exercising their right is authoritative and un-democratic.

[Meldread]

31. They do have the right to choose their own path. However, that does not mean...

...that every other EU country should give them ALL of the benefits of being part of the EU without actually being part of the EU. That's what they want. They are banking on the fact that their economy is large enough that Europe will essentially roll over, and give them all the perks of being part of the EU without actually being in the EU. However, if the EU does that then other countries will want to leave the EU in hopes of getting similar arrangements. This leads to the break up of the EU.

The EU now has every political incentive to engage in punitive actions against the UK for leaving, as that may be the only way to hold the EU together.

If the EU breaks apart we return to a pre-World War Europe, individualized nation states, heavily divided, highly nationalistic... the only reason this is even conceivable is because people no longer believe it is possible to see Europe at war with itself again. I think this is utter nonsense and foolishness. This is such a dangerous path to head down, I don't think the people on the left who are supporting this know what they are risking.

[OnDoutside]

83. Well said Meldread. The question is whether those running the EU have the cojones to do so.

You're absolutely right on what SHOULD happen though.

[sibelian]

39. Flat out SICK, if you ask me.

[roamer65]

21. The Swiss have done just fine outside of the EU.

So too will the UK.

[BlueMTexpat]

91. The Swiss never joined.

From the outset, they were able to manage their relationships with the EU through joint agreements established over MANY, MANY years. Swiss infrastructure had not been destroyed by WWII, so its post-war situation was never as dire as in the rest of Europe.

The EU (in its earlier incarnations) did just fine without Britain for about 20 years. It will do just fine without it again. But Britain now has to start from scratch. THAT will not be easy.

Britain already had a special status in the EU. It was not part of the Eurozone and not part of Schengen. It got to receive ALL the benefits, but was less affected by the disruptions. In other words, it had its cake and could eat it too. With Brexit, it will be left only with crumbs.

Brexit is not a good outcome. It is also NOT the outcome that the Scots, the Northern Irish and Londoners voted for. Thus, this Brexit being about the "will of the people" is not quite accurate; it is about the will of the people in some regions - generally those less developed.

Scotland will break away now and Northern Ireland will perhaps unite with the Republic in some form so that both entities can stay in/rejoin the EU. This leaves England (with an unhappy London) and Wales standing all alone, like the cheese in the nursery rhyme.

Oh, and I live in Switzerland for the most part. I am very sorry that the UK voted this way.

[tritsofme]

22. You are proposing a trade war that would likely trigger a global recession.

And punishment for voters choosing self determination.

No thanks.

On the contrary, Hillary should facilitate Britain's easy entry into the TPP and encourage a EU/UK free trade agreement.

Britain is the 5th largest economy in the world, their major trading partners like Germany can't afford this sort of trade war.

In the end, cooler heads will prevail, there will be an EU/UK free trade agreement that benefits all parties. What you are proposing would be intentionally engineering a global recession, out of spite.

[AntiBank]

75. ease into the TPP??????

You can't possibly be supporting that monstrous abomination of a trade deal are you?????

My mind reels......

[Hydra]

109. Of course they are, that's why a lot of the outrage here over this

A lot of people have outed themselves as supporters of the larger corporate takeover. For some reason, they think that the world will be more stable when we have one overarching corporate rule rather than single gov'ts...and le gasp! Direct Democracy!

A lot of people suspected this was the case with the "centerist" movement, but the PR has more or less successfully been sold that they care about everyone and want to build a better world for them. Oops...I guess the cat's out of the bag.

[cherokeeprogressive]

24. Close your eyes. Now open them again.

Oooh look! Europe is still there!

[Democat]

25. More likely other EU countries will have to learn from the UK

If voters aren't happy, they will make changes.

[840high]

65. +1

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

27. The EU has destroyed Greece

Personally, I'm glad to see the Brits go.

[AntiBank]

77. don't forget Goldman Sachs foundational role in crushing Greece.

Also their utterly corrupt political parties who went along with the GS rat fucks.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

96. Exactly.

The EU has gone from a trading organization to a vast political power representing the corporatists and banisters first.

[Corporate666]

29. Have you re-read your post in retrospect?

You are calling for treating the oldest and staunchest ally of the USA in a manner more heavy-handed and economically brutal than we treat China, or Russia.

Think about that. You are calling to punish the UK for having the audacity to vote on their membership in a trade union more harshly than you want to punish countries that engage in murder for hire, child prostitution, espionage, slave trading and any other number of atrocities.

Think about that for just a moment.

As for Europe - if the rest of the nations choose to leave because the UK left, then it's pretty clear they aren't happy being part of the union. Why should countries remain part of a union they are unhappy with? It seems your answer is "because if you don't, you too will get 'the treatment'". That's insanity.

And what's this stuff about EU being warlike but being kept together by the EU. Do you live there? Have you lived there? Nothing in my lifetime has been more divisive than the general feeling people have that unelected technocrats are micro-managing their lives with no accountability. Look at the current immigrant crisis.. if there was no EU, it would be a Green/Italian problem that the rest of Europe could help with - but because of the EU, it's a problem for all of Europe and none of them can agree on how to handle it. Look at the Greek crisis - the EU was barely able to handle it, and it left the Germans feeling used that they work and save and their money got sent to lazy Greeks. And the Greeks feel like Germany baked a pie, took 99% of it and that they're under the thumb of cold-hearted Germans who make them dance just like happened 60 years ago. Both sides are unhappy and most of the rest of the EU is unhappy too.

I think it's ironically amusing that diversity and freedom is a cornerstone of liberal ideals but as soon as the UK excercises their freedom, some folks want to crush the nation worse than anything we've done to Russia or Yemen or Saudia Arabia or Venezuela, all because they DARE not to want to be forcibly melded into a homogenized Europe where they lose their individuality and control over their future.

[Meldread]

44. Where did I say that the UK shouldn't exercise their freedom to leave?

I believe the will of the voters should be respected. That does not mean that the rest of the world should just roll over and give the UK what it wants because its people decide to throw a hissyfit because they don't like Muslims or Eastern Europeans.

All of the political incentives in Europe--for those who want to preserve the EU--is to engage in punitive actions against the UK. If the UK can leave the EU and then suddenly get all the benefits and perks of being a EU member without actually holding any of the responsibilities of membership, then why should other EU members not want the same? I would love that. I want all the upsides of being in this relationship, with none of the negatives! I'd vote for that. Of course, it doesn't work if EVERYONE does it.

The UK is a tiny nation that just shot its economy in the foot. One of the key advantages for such a staunch alliance from the US perspective, was the influence the UK has over the EU. They just said fuck off to the EU. Why should the United States bail the UK out of a disaster of its own making, unless it is prepared to become the 51st state? The UK military is nothing compared to our own, their economy is about to collapse into a recession, and the British pound at this moment is now worth what it was back before 1985. What does the UK have to offer us aside from moral support?

One of the key reasons we have such strong alliances with some nations is so we can create some degree of stability in the world. The UK may just be responsible for pushing the EU over the edge, potentially returning Europe to its pre-World War status. That's awesome, because it isn't like Europe has a really bad history or anything, right?

[Corporate666]

50. Well, that was an.... interesting? post

I suppose what made me think you don't support the people of the UK choosing their own path might have been when you called for the EU and US to join together in crushing the UK and treating them worse than child traffickers, slavers, human rights abusers, murderers and rapists for having the audacity to want to pursue their own sovereignty.

IMO, you have a very flawed understanding of the UK, the EU and geopolitics.

Based on your post and perspectives, I can see we are not going to be able to have any sort of productive dialogue, so I'm not going to try beyond simply saying that the fundamental issue that you are missing is that the EU MUST offer value to member nations. Nobody is beholden to remain in the EU. The UK leaving is evidence of what happens when people feel like they are getting the short end of the stick. Your approach is like a boss with unhappy workers deciding that he's going to take any complainers out back and beat them with a stick until they learn to be happy.

Life doesn't work that way. Politics doesn't work that way. Unions of any kind don't work that way. The fact that people worry about other nations also wanting to leave proves that what the EU is offering isn't working. There really is no need for a central government and subservience to unelected technocrats just to be a member of a trade and travel union. The currency union portion of the EU is a failure. The EU needs to do some soul searching. The UK told the EU what they want, and the EU said no. The UK took a perfectly reasonable response.

[Meldread]

53. By that line of reasoning, any state could leave the United States.

Mississippi doesn't like the fact that gay people can get married, they can't have prayer in schools, that they can't imprison women for having an abortion, and can't put black folks "into their rightful place." They might not feel that they are getting the full benefits of being part of the United States, because you know "states rights" are being violated and all that jazz.

By your logic they should just be allowed to vote to leave with no repercussions at all. In fact, not only should they be allowed to leave, they should be granted virtually all the benefits of remaining members of the United States with none of the disadvantages.

Oh, but wait! It's totally different! Actually it isn't. The UK has ceded some degree of sovereignty to be part of the EU, and has made numerous agreements with the EU over the years. Now they are about to break those agreements in an attempt to reclaim their sovereignty.

I am not making the argument that the EU is a perfect--or even a good--institution. I believe the EU is in desperate need of major reform, and that at the moment its role is largely destructive for some countries (though the UK isn't one of those countries). This is an argument for reform of the EU, not an exit that could cause the collapse of the EU and return Europe to a pre-World War status of squabbling nation states.

[Corporate666]

56. The EU is nothing like the USA

The UK is not a state. They are a sovereign nation. They have their own currency. Their own parliament. Their own Prime Minister. Their own military. Their own borders. Their own laws. Their own embassies and ambassadors. States in the USA have none of that, because they aren't countries or anything close to it.

A more correct analogy would be like the USA leaving NAFTA.

If the UK can leave the EU and say "ok, we are the #2 economy in Europe - we want to negotiate a trade deal", it would be absolute idiocy for the rest of the EU to say no. That would be like the USA refusing to trade with Canada because Canada didn't want to be part of NAFTA. You don't screw your own citizens just to spite sovereign citizens of another nation because they didn't do what you wanted them to do. That would be no different than the fools who wanted to ruin the US economy and let the auto manufacturers fail just so union members didn't get their pensions bailed out.

If the UK - without spite being part of the equation - can negotiate a deal with the EU (or the individual member states, like Germany) that is superior to the deal they were getting with the EU, then that deal should be done. If it's better to do that deal outside the EU, then the EU is not offering any value to those two countries. So why should they be part of the EU?

And why does the EU need to continue to exist if it's better for member states not to be part of it? If the UK and Germany can work out a deal that works for them, and France gets in on it too - that is superior to what they were getting as part of the EU. Being part of a deal that is detrimental to your nation is bad politicking.

The EU does nothing to stop war or economic collapse. If anything, it can cause it. Look at what happened with Greece. The PIIGS almost brought the whole thing down - destroying economies that were otherwise working perfectly fine. And it sewed the seeds of dissent and anger in Greece, Germany and many many other places.

[Mandos the Judge]

111. But here's the rub....

But here's the rub: The UK will not get a better deal than the one they have now by being an actual member of the EU. EU membership comes with certain perks, full access to the common market being the major one. It would be naive for those in favor of a Brexit to assume they can keep all the benefits and perks that come with EU membership without having any of the responsibilities (like membership fees). Undoubtedly the EU and UK can and will negotiate some kind of trade deal (both sides have plenty of incentive to do so), but the UK WILL have reduced access to the EU common market and a less favorable trade position compared to a full EU member. That's beyond a shadow of a doubt. Whether these drawbacks can be compensated through trade deals outside the EU (I personally doubt it, but...) or through the less tangible ideals of sovereignty is something for the British to decide. So far the Scots seem unconvinced.

[Corporate666]

62. Exactly

EU technocrats are in full-on self preservation mode.

They have been abstracted from having to listen to the voters for a long time and have gotten used to it. The people involved aren't stupid. The EU isn't going to tell the second biggest chunk of their entire economy to go pound sand. It would harm the UK and it would harm the rest of the EU and pushing the EU into steeper economic decline is going to disproportionately harm the weakest members (some of whom are those most likely to leave) - which would just push them to want to leave as well.

The EU needs maturity, leadership, magnanimity and people who are willing to work together for the best outcome for all.

And that will happen - the whining will wear off soon and people will get down to business.

[The2ndWheel]

58. It's a divorce

Should people be forced to stay married? Should people be punished for wanting and getting a divorce?

[Corporate666]

71. Some seem to think that

if your wife wants a divorce, the best thing to do is douse the house with gasoline and torch the lot rather than let her have one red cent.

I can't help envisioning a guy taking a baseball bat and smashing the shit out of his prized 1960's muscle car and laughing at how he's really sticking it to his c-you-next-tuesday of a wife.

[treestar]

107. If it has a bad effect on us (which could be exaggerated)

why not? They did what's best for them but we don't have to worry about anything but what's best for us.

I do think everyone is exaggerating as if it were that important would we not have been following it earlier than the day before the election?

[auntpurl]

34. Oh, don't worry, we will.

This is going to destroy the UK and may lead to another global conflict based in Europe. Think I'm exaggerating? It's not good when major European powers vote for isolationist nationalism.

[Meldread]

46. This is EXACTLY what I am afraid of--this is why I feel so strongly.

It has nothing to do with the British people casting a vote, or a desire to hurt the UK. It's the potential consequences across Europe if they decide to go down this isolationist and nationalist path. WE KNOW WHERE THAT LEADS.

I honestly don't understand why people don't see that. I think it is because they think military conflict in Europe is a thing of the past... but they conveniently forget the major stabilizing force in Europe keeping it that way... the EU.

I am not some lover of the EU, I really am not. I think it is a deeply flawed institution in desperate need of reform. However, I think that reform leads Europe to GREATER integration not less, and it is that same nationalist and isolationist nature of European nations that has (and is) preventing it.

[AntiBank]

79. ridiculous over the top hyperbole

[Renew Deal]

45. You want German justice for England

Your mindset is the reasoning for England to leave. Look at how Germany and the EU treated Greece when they were in trouble. Should England stay for that? I blame the EU and Germany for England's exit.

"Stay or you will be punished" is not positively motivating to people. People will try to escape the abuser. That is the German dominated EU.

[840high]

66. You get it.

[Binkie The Clown]

55. Yes, The EU must crush the UK for daring to dissent. "Join or die," it what you are saying!

That sounds awfully dictatorial.

"The only way to hold the EU together now is to make this as punitive as possible for the UK." you said.

The UK must be ground under the heels of the EU dictators and taught a lesson! How dare they try to have a democracy? That cannot be permitted! They must be punished until they succumb to the will of their rightful masters!

I'm just feeding back to you your own words, slightly paraphrased, but without altering the basic meaning. Is that really what you want? An EU dictatorship that severely punishes anyone who disagrees? Should they, and we, all bow down to our corporate masters? I don't think so.

[Meldread]

64. Um, no.

It has nothing to do with not respecting the will of the voters. It has everything to do with keeping the EU from unraveling.

If the UK is allowed to leave, and then allowed most of the benefits of being a member without any downsides, why should other countries not want the same? That is what you are arguing--that the UK should be granted most (if not all) of the benefits of being in the EU without any of the downsides.

Of course, every EU nation would like that type of treatment. However, if every EU nation got that treatment, the EU would collapse.

You can side with UKIP if you want. However, I'll be siding with the majority of other liberal voters in the UK and in Europe who supported (and continue to support) keeping Europe whole and unified.

But hey who knows. Maybe the UK is really good at making deals. Deals might be their thing. In fact, they will negotiate the best trade deals. The people of the UK will get so rich and win so much, they will be sick of winning and being rich. Who knows.

[AntiBank]

80. that's a main point. Many of us want the EU to collapse.

Just say no to neoliberal anti-democracy. The nations of Europe can do just fine trading together without having their sovereignty stolen.

[Meldread]

85. No one "stole" their sovereignty. Every single nation joined the EU willingly.

It is laughable that you think European nations will do just fine negotiating individualistic trade deals with one another, rather than working collectively together. If you think the exploitation is bad now, just wait! Nothing like allowing the most powerful and wealthy nations of Europe to set ALL the terms of the trade agreements, and effectively deny the weaker European nations EVEN less of a voice at the table.

I am not going to sit here and argue that the EU is perfect. It ain't. It is a severely flawed institution in dire need of reform. However, rather than working together with other EU nations to try and reform that institution, the UK decided to surrender to nationalism and xenophobia. Now the UK is standing on the sidelines demanding most if not all the perks of being a member without actually being a member. If the EU gives them that then there is no reason for many other nations to stay, France for example could be the next to go.

You may believe that is a good thing, however you seem to have a rather weak understanding of history. If the EU breaks apart this will essentially return Europe to its pre-World War days. No sane person--and I mean that literally--wants to see the European nation states break away from one another due to nationalistic urges. Nationalism is always a bad thing, and it is a particularly bad thing in Europe.

[AntiBank]

92. Brussels was never going to reform, that's pie in the sky wishful thinking

Maybe Germany will make last ditch attempts after more nations leave, but that a day late and a pound short. Make NO mistake, the internal inertia and stated drive of the EU project was always going to be pressurisation towards a "more complete union2, and that IS by its very nature, a sovereignty-robbing process.

As for you over the top, dodgy appeals to some imaginary "coming war", I would like to remind you that NO fully democratic, capitalist nation has every in history went to war with another. Finland fought against the Allies in WWII, but that was almost complete against the USSR, due to the secret codicils of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and after the Moscow armistice, they turned on the Nazis in the Lapland war.

As for this statement you made

"Nationalism is always a bad thing, and it is a particularly bad thing in Europe." it is ludicrous. The post-Westphalian nation state, when run via full democratic means, is the pinnacle of human political development so far in our 2 million plus years of human or hominid existence.

[joshcryer]

59. It's not that the EU should do this.

The EU should just try to renegotiate all the trade agreements and act as if nothing happened, that it was all on paper, that it was no big deal. But that won't happen.

It's that the EU now sees an opportunity to really shaft the UK and basically steal its resources. All trade agreements going forward will be favorable to EU states and dis-favorable to the UK. The UK will no longer have a negotiating stance. It won't be out of a sense of punishment and to stop other states from doing it, it will be out of rational self-interest of all others in the EU.

The side effect of course would be that it would be as a kind of punishment.

[Silver_Witch]

61. England is its own country - if they want to leave they should be allowed to.

We are not the wisest of countries so I am thinking they know what they need to do. I don't geet why everyone is so hysterical about the UK leaving the EU. Guess they didn't like it.

[840high]

67. Britain will be fine.

[George Eliot]

69. Over time, best solution I believe. Sovereignty crucial. May prevent future global elite.

My long term view of EU is that it would become another organized entity much like the US that would become a toy and money pot for the global elite. I think the people understood that and were right to stop it now. Corporations call the shots nationally and would eventually have run the EU just like they do the US. My proof? Don't have any except experience watching how corporations and the elite have taken over the US in every way possible. Those of us who hate TPP and other so-called treaties should be able to see how important sovereignty is to the health of our own economy. It was a good outcome in my opinion. Wall Street be damned.

[Dalziel3979]

72. No, don't do anything. We made our own bed as a nation and now we'll lie in it.

Whether it ends up becoming a dream or a nightmare we'll just have to wait and see. Tories and parliament were still going to continue screwing the socially and financially worst off of us in or out of the EU either way so whatever.

[Surya Gayatri]

81. Bless you, Meldread, for this cogent and well-informed OP.

A-friggin'-men to this:

The EU has kept the peace and stability in Europe. People forget the very ugly history of Europe, and mistakenly believe that we could never return to that history. Nationalism is always dangerous, and will inevitably lead Europe in this direction.

And, yes, the EU has many flaws, but it has been a bulwark against resurgent nationalism and zenophobia for 50+ years:

The EU needs a lot of reforms and deeper integration. Hopefully, if there is a silver lining, the UK leaving will prompt those difficult decisions, and the EU could emerge stronger and better as a result.

[n2doc]

99. Punish punish punish

The thought process of bullies and other unpleasant folks. Why not just let the chips fall where they may? Or maybe, the elites like our President might wish to figure out why people voted to leave, and try to solve those problems rather than trying to punish folks for leaving.

[Seeking Serenity]

112. The Democratic Party establishment could learn a thing or two from this

An open question as to whether they will. (My husband says the same can be said of the Republican Party establishment.)

But when the political establishment can't understand "why those dirty, ghastly, hick, loser, stupid rubes are angry with us" ... well, you can see the disconnect and an explanation for why Trumpism ever became a thing.

[deaniac21]

101. EU is going to fall apart.

[treestar]

103. The new Germany

They can be all white now.

Hell the Germans seem to feel guilty and to be on the watch out again racism.