General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHere's why 52% of British voted to leave
Well, for starters the working classes highly resented that the EU mainly benefits the corporatists, banksters, and other assorted elites and bureaucrats. Sound familiar?
And it's just a fact that the EU was sold as a simple trade organization that has grown into a large undemocratic political organization with strong hints that an EU military is to follow.
Xenophobia absolutely played a part in it, but don't forget that people vote in their own self-interest.
The working class resents the fact that the British are told by the EU how many benefits migrants are owed upon arrival in Britain. This is one of the issues that Cameron has supposedly "negotiated."
The working class resents the crowded schools and overworked National Health Service brought about by an influx of immigrants (and a conservative government).
They resent numerous little things that we don't think about.
The working class resents that migrants can qualify for council (government) housing, while they remain on a wait list.
And the middle class resents that they can no longer get their foot on the bottom rung of the housing ladder due to a severe housing shortage.
The list of resentments against the EU is long! This is not just about xenophobia. While Labour party leaders were pro remain, labour party members voted leave!
I'm afraid that the EU just doesn't have the appeal to the working classes that it does to the upper middle class. Everyone I know in Britain (I lived in England) was hoping to retire in a little village in France or Spain, or even in one of the poorer EU countries where their pensions would have gained them a higher quality of life. Even if they never left, it was always going to be a dream.
The working classes can't afford to up and move. They won't have proceeds from the sale of their house to buy them a "little cottage" in the French countryside. They see no reason for borders to remain open. They aren't going out; all they see are more people coming in. They don't care if they will have to stand in line at border control; they can't afford to travel, anyway.
These are not petty issues and they are multiplied many times over
what I could type.
And, again, they resent the ridiculous bureaucracy of the EU.
"The EU is poised to ban high-powered appliances such as kettles, toasters, hair-dryers within months of Britains referendum vote, despite senior officials admitting the plan has brought them ridicule.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/10/eu-to-launch-kettle-and-toaster-crackdown-after-brexit-vote2/
The bureaucrats in the EU can't help themselves. Even with the Brexit vote poised to take place, they were continuing to show how out of touch and petty they have become.
If this is a divorce, the EU did much to provoke it, and now they've got to figure out how to break up while still maintaining the peace for this millennia.
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)It was all because of Donald Trump.
swhisper1
(851 posts)FighttheFuture
(1,313 posts)pulse of the people. He senses, like the feral parasite he is, where things are and what people are perceiving. Couple that with his masterful manipulation of the media, and he does appear to be a puppet master. He is not, but spun appearances in today's culture count for so much, alas. In that sense he is very useful and if you ignore what he is saying or where he goes, it is to your own determine as the Republican Party leaders discovered. Use Trump to gain a sense of what is happening, what people are really feeling, and where possible take on those positions, clarify them and and take away his power before it is too late.
To also clarify, positions like Trumps' misogyny, racism, bigotry, intolerance, hateful divisiveness, Fuck HIM and Fuck those who go for that crap. They should not be respected and should be resisted. Where is talking about bad trade deals, lost jobs, bankers, walls street, etc. Those are powerful positions and we need to take them on, as Bernie was, to rob Trump of his power he gains from them under his image as some "deal maker". Trump will do jack shit about them. There is a better chance the Democrats will actually do something about them, to really try to address them, and people need to understand that.
nashville_brook
(20,958 posts)it doesn't take a prophet or a sage to interpret the zeitgeist the way he has. what he's been able to do is get a microphone and say (badly) what many americans have been saying for years the we're getting screwed. he doesn't offer any kind of acceptable remedy, he just stirs the pot.
so why don't you hear this from our side?
is it b/c they get shouted out? b/c the establishment closes up communicative spaces as soon as people start paying attention to inequality (like with Occupy and Bernie). gotta stamp that shit out.
would-be allies have no reason to take up meaningful action against inequality b/c they see how it results the ending of careers.
it's quite an effective bell jar we have constructed around ourselves.
Initech
(100,062 posts)Although in this case I don't know enough about Brexit yet to make an informed decision about it.
rateyes
(17,438 posts)yourpaljoey
(2,166 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)resent the same things?
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)The Dutch, the French, the Spaniards...just for starters. EU leaders are terrified that other countries will follow.
The EU can work, imo, but not as a political organization seeking to place the same rules and regulations on quite disparate economies and cultures.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)on the rise in most nations. They all combine resentment directed at evil "establishment" "elites" with any of a broad range of host ideologies. Add to that the many millions of people moving around the planet, over 50 million of them homeless refugees with the promise of more to follow, and many of these movements are of course also driven by xenophobia and nationalism. More are right wing than left.
And today populist groups across Europe say they're considering referendums.
Response to Hortensis (Reply #103)
stopbush This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)on a very large scale takes a variety of skills and assets after all.
Trump's not the biggest brain, but he is a successful salesman with proven skills in front of the cameras he adores and his own startup money. When you add rampant narcissism to that, how could he resist piping the tune he knew millions of conservatives were eager to hear? He could have done a left-wing movement but I think there are fewer on that side, plus most conservatives are naturally authoritarian also and really need a leader to follow, making them especially vulnerable. So this B-list (at best) establishment elite figure plays the leader they think they want on a world stage with thousands shouting his name wherever he goes...
Response to Hortensis (Reply #127)
stopbush This message was self-deleted by its author.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Trump I completely agree about. And we're doing it in such great "style." I'd put our right-wing B-list leader up against those of any East European state for sheer...show.
chapdrum
(930 posts)Thanks.
B2G
(9,766 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)sticking it to the corporatists/oligarchs/foreign rule/whatever. But, don't think they will actually be better off any time soon.
The only way I really see this working to benefit of "working class" is that some new type of EU emerges built upon the message sent in the vote and fear among other countries the vote/sentiments have generated. It's going to take many years to unwind from EU. Gotta wonder if (perhaps hope) something new emerges that takes the best from the EU and corrects some of the issues. That would be a good thing.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)It will take years, probably.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)The whole thing was based on lies. Fact-free politics, just like Donald Trump and the Republicans. These people believe things that simply aren't true. And no amount of correct information will fix that. Because in fact, labor laws were stricter with the EU than they were before or likely will be after, so workers in particular will be even worse off. And they are fooling themselves if they think there will be less bureaucracy.
I can't understand why the left who supported leave didn't see that. They will at best be a minority, among all the racists and nationalists. There is no way, even as a left-wing person myself, I could have made common cause with racists and xenophobes. This cannot end well for them, at least in the short term.
And it is young people who will suffer most. Voted for by people who won't live to see the rotten future. Their job opportunities will sink even further now that they will no longer be able to work in 27 other countries.
mountain grammy
(26,614 posts)like working people voting for Reagan.
Response to mountain grammy (Reply #81)
stopbush This message was self-deleted by its author.
swhisper1
(851 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Isolationism is never the boon some imagine it is. Make no mistake, the economic elites might be inconvenienced, but they will not be hurt in the end.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)run your country is not isolationism.
Personally, I think the Brits should stay in if the EU goes back to a trading union instead of a political organization. I would have preferred to work with the other EU countries to change the EU back to the economic union of the seventies, and maybe that will happen if other countries start leaving.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Replace "bureaucrats in Brussle" with "bureaucrats in Washington" and you pretty much have a standard-issue GOP stump speech.
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)The English apparently disagree with you that a tiny group of unelected well-placed 1%'ers are in any way equipped, capable, or deserving to dictate the terms of everyone elses' lives and financial affairs.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)This was a nativist/nationalist vote.
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)The political parties in other countries heralding the leave vote are far right anti-immigration parties. Pretending this isn't about immigration is foolish.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)It's one thing for the EU to have negotiating power as a huge trading bloc. It's something else entirely to have an EU government that continuously interferes in the sovereignty of member nations.
pampango
(24,692 posts)Indeed that does not sound like something that is going to benefit the working class.
forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)Trump: Yes
Sanders: No
Farage: Yes
Corbyn: No
The vote broke down largely among ideological lines - racist white people butthurt about immigration, yes, everyone else, no. Sadly everyone else couldn't win the turnout battle. Also Remain won with young voters by a mile, and was supported by the most liberal sections of the UK (in fact Scotland is probably leaving the UK over this).
Stop carrying water for fascist ideologues in the guise of supporting the working class..
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)The working class resents that migrants can qualify for council (government) housing, while they remain on a wait list.
And the middle class resents that they can no longer get their foot on the bottom rung of the housing ladder due to a severe housing shortage.
is good reason to be upset? We ignore what happened yesterday at our peril.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)other people's mouths when you have no argument to make?
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)so you're asking the wrong person. I think they cut off their noses to spite their faces but I'm not in any position to tell them they made a mistake. We ignore the problems people see with migrants and immigration at our peril. I'm not willing to shove my head in the sand in the name of political correctness.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)I believe a diverse societies are stronger than homogenous ones
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)What the hell that has to do with the VERY real problems with housing and benefits that migrants and immigrants get before British citizens is a mystery.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... immigration that didn't extort the immigrants in some way became stronger.
I don't see how in the UK the immigrants were extorted and again, if there's no critical mass of people getting more benefits than someone else then oh fucking well.
Fair and right are two different things even though they often coincide.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Y'know, the claim you've made several times in this thread that migrants get preference over everyone else when it comes to public housing. Have you got links to anything supporting that claim? It's just that I've had a look at eligibility requirements and it's very similar to where I live. Housing is allocated on a needs basis, and being a migrant isn't on the list.
http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/social_housing/applying_for_social_housing/who_gets_priority
Also, here's an article I found about the housing crisis and the attempts to blame it on migrants. It reminds me of the stupid 'they're stealing our jobs!' crap that the RW anti-migrant types here used to blurt out about Asian migrants...
Migrants arent jumping queues for social housing, and in some places immigration actually lowers housing demand
In a speech in December 2012, Theresa May claimed that more than a third of all new housing demand in Britain was caused by immigration. And there is evidence that without the demand caused by mass immigration, house prices could be 10% lower over a 20-year period, she said. The statement mirrors a common trope in any debate on the housing crisis: the idea that it is caused by mass migration, and that without migration, Britain would have no need for more housing.
The London School of Economics report that May cited as the source for her claim also says: In the early years even better off migrants tend to form fewer households as compared to the indigenous population; to live disproportionately in private renting; and to live at higher densities. However, the longer they stay, the more their housing consumption resembles that of similar indigenous households.
This, in part, debunks the idea that immigration is the biggest strain on housing new arrivals tend to live in denser households and take up less space.
Few migrants live in social housing
Migrants are more likely to rent in the private sector, as opposed to buying homes or living in social housing. According to the Oxford Migration Observatory, 74% of recent migrants (those who have been in the UK for five years or less) were in the private rented sector in the first quarter of 2015: they are twice as likely to be renters compared with the total migrant population; 39% of the total foreign-born population were in the private rented sector, and just 14% of the UK-born population.
Despite this, there is a high perception among white Britons that migrants receive positive discrimination when it comes to social housing. A 2014 LSE discussion paper points out: The level of discrimination perceived by white Britons in social housing is higher than that perceived by any other group in social housing. And the only other ethnic groups reporting higher levels of perceived discrimination with any part of the state is the black community with the police, criminal justice and immigration authorities, a relationship that we know to be very troubled.
One Daily Mail headline from 2012, which has now been amended, once read: Revealed: How HALF of all social housing in England goes to people born abroad. The actual figure at the time was 8.6%: it now stands at 9%. Around 91% [pdf] of all new social tenancies are taken up by UK-born citizens.
http://www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2016/jan/25/is-immigration-causing-the-uk-housing-crisis
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Syria is very diverse. Lebanon. South Africa.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Igel
(35,296 posts)You can't claim X is the reason for a fact if X started after the fact.
Meanwhile, Rwanda, Papua New Guinea, South Africa, Argentina, Russia. Assimilation, war, tension, genocide have been the standards when you get a lot of "diversity." It's not stable as long as every group gives more importance to its group identity than to an identity that units all the groups. But once you have that, you get assimilation because then the only different eventually becomes trivial differences like skin color or nose shape--there's nothing cultural keeping them separate.
The true "American exceptionalism" is thinking that in 4000 years of recorded history showing how identity groups (don't) get along we're suddenly different. Groups get along with there's something bigger and more important than the group you identify with that you either team up against or all embrace. Or when all the groups are conquered and equally unempowered, so that government acts as a referee and a distributor of favors that it controls.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)instead of other political factors.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)that migrants get government housing that the citizens have to wait for. You don't see a problem with that? I happen to think GB cut off their nose to spite their faces yesterday but to ignore the real issues is not smart.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... of it happening to the point that it hurts the avg Brit.
Not fair but may be right looking at who it helps vs who it hurts
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)it's going to hurt the middle class and poor much more than anyone else (the rich will always find a way to survive, even if they have to move). I would think the vote yesterday is the very definition of critical mass.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Britain has a severe housing shortage - public and private.
And what housing is available is very expensive.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... always at the San Francisco level.
It was atrocious mostly cause they didn't like urban sprawl that we allow here.
Blaming this on immigrants sounds like human tribalism knowing the facts
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)and while London has always been extremely expensive, it certainly wasn't at San Francisco levels then or when I've visited.
The British government holds a lot of the blame for the housing situation.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Last edited Fri Jun 24, 2016, 12:15 PM - Edit history (1)
1) Wealthy "foreigners" are buying up real estate in London as fast as it goes on the market as investments or second homes (or third, fourth, fifth..)
2) The UK is highly bureaucratic in its own right when it comes to new build.
3) The conservative government sold council housing to renters who could afford to buy their own home and aren't replacing those council homes with new build. Projects are in the works, but construction projects move very slowly in Britain.
4) And an influx of immigrants is putting pressure at the lower end of the housing situation, as well.
I listen to BBC news a lot and peruse their on-line publications.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Denzil_DC
(7,230 posts)Clue: It's not the EU. And it's not immigrants. But let's not point fingers at the real culprits, that would be so gauche.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)I may not fully understand the reasons for the housing shortage, but I do know there are multiple reasons for it. See my post 85.
Denzil_DC
(7,230 posts)Generally, Conservative voters owned their houses while Labour voters rented social (a.k.a. council) housing. So a big sell-off was instigated. It was social engineering on a grand scale: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14380936
The council houses sold at knockdown prices to the tenants - so low that people would have had to be crazy or very principled indeed not to snap them up - were not replaced with new stock. Hell, councils weren't even allowed to spend the money from the sales on repairs to the remaining council house stock, they had to use it to pay down borrowing instead.
It's suited successive governments since to stimulate a housing shortage, by going slow on new private house building and making relatively little social housing provision, because a lot of people became very invested in owning their own houses rather than renting, partly for status reasons, but mainly hooked on the idea of easy money because they could just pay a mortgage and the property they lived in would appreciate in value at an alarming rate. Alleviating that housing shortage would drive prices down, so it's seldom been any sort of priority because the new aspirant middle class wouldn't like that. Until it periodically becomes such a crisis that it can't be ignored: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/27/the-guardian-view-on-housing-policy-britain-must-face-home-truths
Now, having identified some of the root causes, maybe you could explain what "migrants" are allowed to jump social housing allocation lists? I mean, you must have a source for that, right? I couldn't get a council house myself when I could have used one years ago because there just weren't any available unless you had existing family ties to the area, and I was in effect an immigrant, though not a visually identifiable one.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)And I didn't say that migrants jump the queue. However, when Brits can't get housing but see migrants in council housing, it creates resentment among some people.
Do you not agree with that?
Denzil_DC
(7,230 posts)Perhaps it's just a question of phrasing, but that sounds like queue-jumping. Whatever.
Happening to have lived in the UK all my life and just witnessed the referendum in situ, I'm bemused that you can be so categorical in your OP that you've identified why 52% in the UK voted Leave. We have actual post-referendum polls already that rank the reasons people have given. In Sunderland, for instance, an area with serious issues of deprivation, the immigrant presence is negligible, but people still gave immigration as the primary reason for voting Leave. Seems like something else is going on there ...
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Sunderland voted for leave, despite the fact that they have few immigrants. However, the people of Sunderland do know that with increased population, more money will have to be spent on education, the NHS, housing allowance, etc. The pie is only so big, and they want a bigger part of the pie for themselves. No????? How does immigration help them?
I'm just saying that reducing the "leave" vote to matters of racism/xenophobia only is simplistic.
Personally, I think things are going to be a big mess, and I don't envy ya'll.
Denzil_DC
(7,230 posts)Take a look at this to see the simple spreadsheet error that's fuelled this so convenient fixation on the need for austerity in the latest phase of what can only be described as a class war: How a dodgy spreadsheet and a bad joke created the Tory austerity lie
How does immigration help them? - Don't immigrants spend money? Don't they buy food and goods and services? That money goes round and round. If they earn enough, they'll pay tax. They'll pay National Insurance. If they buy VAT-rated goods and services, they'll pay tax. The pie is actually elastic. Even the Tories' archetypal scapegoats, the dole scroungers (say, some of those very people in Sunderland), are economically active.
Our central bank just this morning splurged £250,000,000 to stop the pound tanking. I'd imagine there's more to come. The pie's pretty damn big when it suits the government (and feathers their pals' and their nests). Ever heard of Trident? The Chunnel? The Millennium Dome?
As for an increased population, we actually need population increase. I'm in Scotland. We have an ageing population profile. Same goes for the rest of the country as birth rates decline. In my local area, we have schools that are closing or perpetually threatened with closure because they don't have enough children attending them. We have empty social housing nobody wanted to live in on the Isle of Bute that we've used to house Syrian asylum seeker families. We need younger generations to pay into the pot to support the old age pensions some folks may live long enough to eventually claim if they're not abolished altogether. Heaven forbid, I may need some younger person to help me with my daily needs if I don't die relatively young. I doubt I'd actually be bothered what part of the world they might have come from.
Your argument might be more persuasive if we didn't have post-referendum polls that show that xenophobia - antipathy to immigration - was the main issue that people said led them to vote Leave. It may be uncomfortable to acknowledge that, but that doesn't make it untrue. It isn't the only reason, but it really is quite simple. And factions in Leave weren't promoting that with dogwhistles, they had dirty great posters and shouty spokes spreading it all over our media for the past few months.
And guess what? As somebody living in Scotland, I'm firmly in the sights of some of them too, on very similar grounds to those you've mentioned applying to immigrants. Because I'm Other. A scapegoat. Because they believe economic lies about how my country relates to the rest of the UK and who pays for what and how much, who's leeching off whom etc. etc. Please don't excuse them or try to explain all this away.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Re poor immigrants: a married couple with two kids in school take more than they give. The taxes they pay might cover the education of their kids, and not much more.
Then there's a housing allowance, the NHS, etc., and they are not net givers.
The benefits of immigration re taxes will likely be seen among the next generation assuming they get an education and become productive members of society.
Anyway, as long as a vote against immigration is understood as racist against the immigrants themselves, instead of a vote against the effects of immigration, you won't win their votes.
The fact is that the working class in the first world has been hit hard by the free movement of people, capital, and labor. and will vote in their own self interest or - at least - their own perceived self interest.
Hope that makes sense.
Denzil_DC
(7,230 posts)With our depleted class sizes, for instance, it costs no more to employ a teacher, provide a classroom and heat and clean it for ten pupils than it does for one pupil. There are some other costs (we're unusual up here because kids get free school dinners whatever the parents' income on the basis of universality promoting social cohesion), but given widespread cutbacks in provision of schoolbooks etc., they're marginal. Immigrants can actually help keep our schools open.
As for some of the other things you mention, a society has to invest in people in order to reap the benefits they can bring, but you're assuming immigrants will need to claim housing allowance etc., which isn't necessarily the case. And even if they are, it's still economic activity. It ultimately puts money in others' pockets, and the great dance continues. Immigrants generally are quite high achievers academically from reports I've studied, because they're quite strongly motivated.
You can't separate the myths about the effects of immigration from attitudes toward the immigrants themselves, because of what lies behind them. You have to tackle the myths. That's the challenge.
Guess what? People from the UK migrate too. For economic reasons, among others, including mass retirement in Spain, where they have avery poor record of integration: none of the media has covered the ramifications of this result for the 700,000 Brits currently settled in Spain yet. If they have to repatriate, we really will have some problems.
If we want our people to be able to live abroad, we can't just slam the shutters on our own country. Leave actually acknowledges this, as today they've openly admitted that exit from the EU won't reduce immigration levels. So your "self-interested working class" just missed the target and shot themselves - and the rest of us who don't see things that way - in the feet in this case.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)Many immigrants are strongly motivated to succeed in school.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)It's like complaints about SNAP and TANF in the US: it might be a valid worry, if the factual basis weren't complete bullshit. But it is.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Leaving the EU will do nothing to change Indian subcontinent or Caribbean immigration policies.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)nt
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... the "they're taking shit from us" attitude is something this country see's and usually loathes.
No one is posting empirical evidence of how "immigrants" have made life worse for brit just like the tribalist in this country usually don't
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Immigrants long term don't typically make things worse, regardless of skin color (not that I'm sure what you are trying to refute or complain about here, certainly nothing I posted.) Japan is exhibit A for why.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... tribalism that was stocked to garner the vote for Brexit leave.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Read the one I responded to before you pontificate.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)whatthehey
(3,660 posts)PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)So the idiots who voted leave won't even get an immigrant-free country. I'd laugh if it wasn't so pathetic.
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)I don't know about you, but I'd rather that crisis cases were housed first. And housing benefit is available t o anyone who qualifies - you're just talking about the limited number of council homes - of which there'd be far more if the Tories hadn't sold them off to buy votes.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)nt
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Silver_Witch
(1,820 posts)However if you have a lonmk please share!
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... referendum
https://www.rt.com/news/348201-putin-brexit-weak-economies/
Silver_Witch
(1,820 posts)People love the sky is falling. Amazing to me!!!
BeyondGeography
(39,369 posts)Is there a policy prescription other than closing down borders? Face it, without immigration at the center of this vote, it would never have gotten off the ground. That matters, because the next PM will have to make appeasing the Leave voters a priority, and catering to fear is a bad starting point for any government.
The UK has enormous impact on Europe and the world. I'm rooting for a constructive outcome. I'm not seeing the seeds of it in that article.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)It was a very, very simple analysis of why I thought Brexit voters voted the way they did.
I understand why they voted for Brexit, but I think they should have waited. Personally, I think things might have hit critical mass at some not too distant future with more and more countries unhappy with the way that the EU is governed, and the EU could have then been reworked.
What is your opinion on that?
Cameron gambled and lost with this referendum, unfortunately.
BeyondGeography
(39,369 posts)is a poor substitute for the muddling through and hard work that is always preferable to blowing things up without a plan.
But it is done. A positive outcome for the EU would be to reform itself, but that's not the real problem here. There is much about the EU that people actually enjoy and have come to take for granted. People will see that when firms bolt Britain, when the price of many things rise such as airfares, international cellphone use or a wide range of other multi-jurisdictional activities. I have friends in the trade show business in London who are shitting themselves over the prospect of higher freight costs and longer exhibitor shipping times for every major event they do.
Without a raging refugee crisis none of this would have happened. On a surface level, the Brits are the biggest pissers and moaners on the planet. It's never just raining, it's pissing rain. People don't have disagreements, they have massive rows. Exaggeration is sport; that's how they blow off steam and it works for them. But too many have obviously lost their way over immigration and they're not alone. In order to avoid further such cock-ups, the flow of political refugees into Europe has to be reduced to a fraction of its present levels or Brexit will be just the first chapter in a long tale of woe.
sendero
(28,552 posts)... of people who want to believe this vote is not a rebuke to the authoritarians who have fucked up every thing they have touched.
Guess what, being anti-immigrant makes a lot of sense when being pro-immigrant means you can't find a place to live.
It's the economy, stupid - one thing Bill Clinton got right.
forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)sendero
(28,552 posts)... are against something because someone else is for it.
forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)in many cases a fig leaf for outright racism through the vehicle of blaming POC for their problems.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)I guess the Polish are brown.
angrychair
(8,692 posts)Your implication is that liberal progressives, who are not all "working-class whites", are closet racist???
forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)is racism and progressives are desperate for a quick fix to their inability to organize effectively so they ignore this, and just assume it's against the "establishment" or the banks or capitalists when in reality this anger is only against the establishment insofar as it allows for "THOSE PEOPLE" to have the same access to economic resources as white people.
The Brexit voters were by and large, xenophobes at BEST who hated the EU because of "multiculturalism" which is a dogwhistle for "not white" or at the very least "not British".
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)swhisper1
(851 posts)FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)Too many here are typical American slogan thinkers. Your OP is so much better than the "UK are racists" - simple bumper sticker explanation thrown around here.
jonno99
(2,620 posts)leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)Just being 'against whatever Trump said' is not reasoning.
HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)Kilgore
(1,733 posts)Actual thoughts, not just a bunch of knee jerk slogans.
Well Done
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)and my husband talks with Brits almost every day. (His employer has an office there.)
Kilgore
(1,733 posts)My brother is working in southern England on temporary assignment and he tells me the EU electric kettle, and toaster ban is a huge deal.
Mess with their tea, and the fight is on!!
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)It's such a little thing, really, but it also proves the lengths to which the EU has control over the UK. A lot of people are just fed up. Let's face it, even most of the people who voted "remain" are very unhappy with the EU.
jonno99
(2,620 posts)wait, we do have that "incandescent" light-bulb (of a certain wattage) ban...
Otherwise, thank you for a well-reasoned post.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)And everyone here knows what this is about - immigrants.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)as the effects of immigration on the social compact between the British government and the British people.
I think very few people voted because they are against the immigrants as people.
In fact, if you believe that 52% of the voters voted for racist reasons as opposed to rational self interest, then you have a very poor opinion of the British.
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)Some are incredibly xenophobic, and the majority at least a bit. many are lovely of course, but they all voted remain.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)K&R
RDANGELO
(3,433 posts)flamingdem
(39,313 posts)Interesting. I know that in Cornwall they're angry about the wealthy coming in and buying up second homes while locals are suffering a housing shortage. They want to ban this practice. Housing is hugely expensive there driven up by the elite class.
geardaddy
(24,926 posts)Wealthy people from other parts of the UK buying holiday homes that sit empty for nine months at a time, when that home could house someone from the community.
Freddie
(9,259 posts)Housing is a huge issue. Plus he said (years ago) that the locals can't find jobs in traditional occupations there such as fishing because Polish immigrants work cheaply and get all the jobs.
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)Poland is in a crisis, I bet they'll accept extremely low wages. We can understand in cases like this why the vote went the way it did.
Yavin4
(35,433 posts)As soon as "other people" start getting benefits, everyone screams bloody murder. Humanity has to evolve to a point where they overcome tribalism and xenophobia. We're slowly getting there, but we are not there yet.
RDANGELO
(3,433 posts)Which destroys the middle class.
Yavin4
(35,433 posts)Sure, govt benefits are great when they go to a certain class of people, and they're awful if some other class of people get something. That's what kills socialism dead in its tracks.
RDANGELO
(3,433 posts)If they had a strong economy with a strong middle class, they wouldn't have to pay out so many benefits.
Yavin4
(35,433 posts)It won in areas with immigration. Paint it however you want.
Denzil_DC
(7,230 posts)It also won in areas with next to no immigration, such as Sunderland. Because people had bought into the media-spread xenophobic scapegoating myths this OP continues to propagate.
How many immigrants are given public housing over the needs of locals? Do you think the OP knows? Does she know the root cause of the UK's housing shortage? I strongly doubt it. This is just glib excuse-making mounted on a high horse.
And that's from somebody who was born and lives in the UK, not just someone with a husband has contacts there who's visited for a while, but whatever.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)As long as people get what they want/need, everything can be sort of cool. When we start having to deal with limits, and having to make choices, that's when things start to get messy. We, humans, aren't good at making those choices. We can't agree on what's fair. It causes a lot of problems. That's why the economy always has to grow, regardless of what happens to the planet.
Humanity has to evolve to a point where they overcome tribalism and xenophobia. We're slowly getting there, but we are not there yet.
I would say the only reason we've even come as close as we have to that is because of the energy that has been made available to more and more people. Those energy resources cause environmental issues, but without them, we're going to be more tribal. Why? Because for the vast majority of human history, we've been tribal. That's how we're built. We didn't evolve and adapt in a global society environment. It's really only been what, half a century or so? Globalization has been happening since civilization started, but for the most part, it's been through violence that it's progressed.
We're a tribal species, that has developed the ability to exploit the hell out of a lot of energy. Unfortunately, we live within physical reality, and it has limits.
Yavin4
(35,433 posts)Our increased ability to travel the globe and talk to people any where on the globe is helping us evolve as humans. We're learning about the beauty of other cultures as well as the ugliness of some cultures.
In the end, Marx is right. However, we have to evolve as a species to a higher level of being for his theories to work.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)Thanks for clearing that up.
Apologists for xenophobia and racism need to really go home and look in the mirror for a long time.
kcjohn1
(751 posts)Most of the non white immigrants come through non eu migration which Britain has control over (India, Pakistan, Caribbean, etc).
Believe it or not part of the leave campaign argument was some one from Romania has free reign to enter UK without any ties but someone from the common wealth with strong historical ties to the UK has to jump through hoops.
David__77
(23,369 posts)I can understand a desire to keep things "as is." It doesn't occur to me that that is necessarily a racist thing.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)Look at the history of violent anti-immigrant sentiment in this country: always based on the idea that they were dirty or criminal or taking jobs or benefits away. Whether it was the Irish escaping the famine or the Chinese coming to work on the railroads, or the Jews escaping pogroms and discrimination (and later, extermination), or the Mexicans (insert as well people from India or the Middle East). Each of those waves of immigrants contributed much to our country and took away little, and each has integrated into the core of American society with a generation or two.
As for race, here is what a friend of ours in Britain, is quoted as saying several days before the Brexit vote:
Brexit is one of those reminders for people like me that one cant afford to be too Hegelian about questions of white supremacy and racial privilege, he said, when asked. You cant afford to think theres some curve thats endlessly leading to a state of affection, because just when we think that, what disappears is a certain kind of vigilance. It serves to remind you also of the perils of assuming that narratives die.
https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-john-akomfrah-reawakens-history-in-chillingly-beautiful-new-films
Of course, he is an immigrant of sorts, having been born in Ghana, and an intellectual and an artist and a leftist. An "expert," in other words, for whom the "leave" lovers have no regard.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I am so sick of the stupid, knee jerk charges of racism that are so common on this board. Sometimes toeing the PC line is the lazy way out.
elljay
(1,178 posts)There is this assumption that the way we see things must be the way everyone else sees them. Thus, the world is divided up into racist white people whose motivations must always be questioned and oppressed POC who are always correct and cannot be criticized (because that would be racist) and everything is shoved into this paradigm. It doesn't allow for the possibility that this is a simplistic analysis and that others may not carve their world up that way.
Bucky
(53,987 posts)phazed0
(745 posts)All over the world. Wake up people, the revolution is afoot.
Geronimoe
(1,539 posts)They don't need bankers controlling their nation.
geardaddy
(24,926 posts)are retiring in Wales, pushing the price of housing up and pricing out locals.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)I know the sale of council housing and the lack of new build is a real problem, as well as construction red tape.
See post 85.
ananda
(28,856 posts)... it was supported by UKIP and the far-rightwing anti-immigrant factions
across Europe.
It was sold as a pro-worker referendum, but it's really a pro-corporatist,
anti-immigrant deal.
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)Prism
(5,815 posts)I lived in Britain as well. For three years. And I talked with friends there about this.
Everyone going, "but whhhhyy?" This morning clearly never spoke to a British citizen.
And people going "well, racists!"
Dumbasses. Talk to someone for a change.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)with the working class.
If you don't understand why people vote the way they do, you won't change their vote.
Yeah, some real dumbasses, for sure.
That's right. If leaders are unwilling to admit the difficulties caused by immigration on the working classes (as opposed to seeing racism only), then it comes at their peril.
And it did.
Yesterday.
The so-called free movement of people, capital and labor has been a disaster for the working classes in the first world and if those problems aren't addressed, then you get these results.
Marr
(20,317 posts)free trade policies. Weirdly familiar.
And doubly strange to see the same types here, suggesting the Brits who voted to leave the EU are just racists.
Populist_Prole
(5,364 posts)Lots of the same talking points in synchronicity.
Just as in "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel", Faux progressivism in the defense of plutocracy is equally loathsome.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Round and round we go.
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)That's like quoting Fox. Those energy efficiency regulations as necessary to meet climate change targets - another area where the uk on its own is shite. And in spite of it supposedly being a big deal, the first I have heard of it is today on du. But then I don't read the daily mail or the sun - or the telegraph.
Denzil_DC
(7,230 posts)because the dreaded "EU regulations" were going to outlaw vacuum cleaners over a certain wattage. The RW press was all over it. Many people, having griped about it a whole lot, insisted on buying new high-wattage vacuum cleaners before the regs came into force whether they need them or not.
In fact, the EU had mandated manufacturers to increase the efficiency of vacuum cleaners so you got more suck per buck, cleaning just as well while using less energy, costing the owners less for electricity!
I'd imagine this Telegraph story will turn out to be much like that.
PaulaFarrell
(1,236 posts)Still, not one person in real life mentioned it to me. Storm in a teacup and just the usual suspects whipping up anti EU sentiment. Now if only they do that about Ttip.
Duval
(4,280 posts)kiva
(4,373 posts)Most of my friends in Britain opposed the Brexit and I'm sorry that is passed, but this article at least hints at the complexities of why it happened.
I'm also grimacing at people whose understanding of the situation can be encompassed in either "Racism!!!!!!!!!" or "Trump supported it, so bad!!!!!" This is a political website, understanding complexities should second nature to posters here.
spanone
(135,816 posts)Nigel Farage Says £350 Million NHS Pledge Made By The Leave Campaign Was A Mistake
The claim was one of the key statements made by the official Vote Leave campaign, and it was used in adverts and emblazoned on the side of the campaign bus.
During an interview on ITVs Good Morning Britain on Friday morning, after Britain voted to leave the EU, Farage was asked whether he could guarantee that the £350 million sent to the EU would now go the NHS.
Farage answered: No I cant. I would never have made that claim. That was one of the mistakes made by the Leave campaign.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/rossalynwarren/nigel-farage-says-the-million-pledge-to-fund-the-nhs-w?utm_term=.iuRKlOJ4#.rfE1YPNr
Teamster Jeff
(1,598 posts)The Labour Party's message to their supposed working class base missed completely. People chose to rally around the "Leave" message instead, as destructive as it may turn out to be.
Denzil_DC
(7,230 posts)This OP is a glib gross oversimplification by somebody who doesn't even live in the UK. The fact it's got 60 recs from a mainly American board is a bit depressing, but not surprising.
The elements of truth in it are what make the future scary.
Yes, political forces in the UK have successfully fooled whole areas of the UK that their problems are down to the EU and immigrants, not the nonsensical austerity measures or long years of deliberate neglect, underinvestment and wasteful mismanagement of the economy in pursuit of the fetish of Thatcherism.
When eventually there's been whatever sort of clampdown may result from new measures to restrict immigrants (not that the Leave side seriously believe that their winning is going to do much to reduce numbers, as they've now admitted after the result), but EXACTLY THE SAME PROBLEMS STILL EXIST, who do you think the next scapegoats are going to be?
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)neighbor countries, live there, work there, get medical care under national health plan and attend university there.
It's impossible to buy a home in the home country UK, it's like NYC prices if any ever come for sale. All rentals with high prices, the older generation owns those properties.
It takes about two years for all the European Union 'treaties' and 'agreements' for the UK to be canceled officially. I read the EU website and their regulations) Wonder if there will be another vote next year?
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)certainot
(9,090 posts)here who can tell me if england is plagued by rw talk radio/
can't be as bad as here and cant be as big a monopoly as here but just wondering.