Why is Boeing charging $4 billion anyway?

[davidn3600]

Doesn't Boeing really only construct the air frame and then outsource most of everything else? I know Air Force One has some extra capabilities and all. But $4 billion does seem kind of steep for two 747's and will take EIGHT years to build.

Going beyond Trump, I've always been critical of the costs of contracts that the Pentagon and Congress just seems to rubber stamp regardless of the price tag. But then all our social services, schools, and even other programs like NASA have to claw and scratch for every penny. Ridiculous. Im all for making Boeing claw for every penny too instead of just writing them a blank check every time the Air Force wants a new toy.

[doc03]

1. I have been hearing it is more like $1.6 billion nt

[former9thward]

5. It is $4 billion according to GAO.

A March report from the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, estimated the cost of the overall program at $3.21 billion, including the purchase of two aircraft.

But the GAO estimated the costs for research and development would be would be low, at just under $2 billion. If the GAO report used the same Air Force estimate for research and development, then its estimate would be around $4 billion.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-airplane-idUSKBN13V1S5

[JHan]

2. The cost isn't 4 billion. It's been earmarked to cost 1.64 - Trump lied by...

..assuming the cost overruns in his tweet. It was dangerously deceptive.

Boeing's stocks dipped as a result.

[former9thward]

9. Then the GAO is lying also.

A March report from the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, estimated the cost of the overall program at $3.21 billion, including the purchase of two aircraft.

But the GAO estimated the costs for research and development would be would be low, at just under $2 billion. If the GAO report used the same Air Force estimate for research and development, then its estimate would be around $4 billion.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-airplane-idUSKBN13V1S5

[JHan]

13. Ah didn't have that info, thanks much..

I don't mind the cost if it's justified - and it's spread out over 10 years..

As you share this, just realised Wired did a good write up about the cost:

https://www.wired.com/2016/12/mr-trump-heres-really-want-spend-4-billion-air-force-one/

[Quackers]

14. That's what surprised me earlier when the White House tried to say it wasn't true.

The price tag is accurate but it is justified. The fleet is 30 years old. The new aircraft are bigger. The new aircraft cost less to maintain. Once completed, they will be in service until 2050.

[JHan]

15. yep, the new planes will require badass upgrades, I don't mind it at all.

[GummyBearz]

23. Sounds about right

They will be completed right around 2045 and then the new models will need to go into development

[CreekDog]

17. two aircraft not one -Air Force One is not ONE aircraft

but we see what you did there.

you've been doing it for years, and getting away with it for years, on issue after issue, on story after story, defending the Republican side or trying to undermine the Democratic side.

we see it.

[JI7]

19. yup

along with 2 or 3 others.

don't know why it's allowed.

[former9thward]

21. "along with 2 or 3 others. "

where is that coming from? don't know why it's allowed.

[former9thward]

32. LOL

Wow, what a stalker. Going back two years on a totally unrelated subject. You win the prize...

[CreekDog]

36. oh your public post on DU is supposed to be a secret?

that's one of the poorer defenses of one's posts.

but then again you were attempting derail that thread, much as you're attempting the same here.

[former9thward]

20. The poster I was replying to said it was 1.64 billion for the two.

but we see what you did there.

[CreekDog]

27. NO you tried to make Trump's $4billion seem true

it's bullshit.

and if Obama gave a number that was off by a penny, you'd be all over him for being wrong or lying.

in fact, i wouldn't be surprised if you did that here, the exception being if he was somehow criticizing Democrats or liberals in which case, you might just agree with him.

but all in service of your SAME, TIRED purpose here.

[former9thward]

28. The GAO says its true.

But I know, you know more about the contract....

A March 2016 report from the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, estimated the cost of the overall program at $3.21 billion, including the purchase of two aircraft.

But the GAO estimated the costs for research and development would be lower, at just under $2 billion. If the GAO report used the same Air Force estimate for research and development, then its estimate would be around $4 billion.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-airplane-idUSKBN13V1S5

[CreekDog]

31. "Including the purchase of TWO aircraft" TWO is not ONE

but you know that and you're trying your damndest to make it sound like Trump's $4 billion number for AIR FORCE ONE, is true.

it's not and you're trying hard to make it seem like it is true.

because it's what you do.

[former9thward]

35. Hate to give you some facts.

Hope you don't explode. But Air Force One is a call sign, not the number of aircraft.

[CreekDog]

34. In this thread, you try to make it sounds like Trump's statement about the debate dates was true

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10141537829#post9

[BeyondGeography]

3. Because they're not

The Pentagon announced in January that Boeing had won the contract to replace the current air force One planes. The initial contract was worth just $25.8 million, but the air force planned on spending as much as $1.65 billion on the project, according to Reuters.

http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/world/donald-trump-cancel-boeings-contract-for-air-force-one/news-story/0b73e583c92f9000d160ccbee6aaeeac

[dhill926]

4. why do you believe anything...

that comes out of agent orange's mouth...been proven wrong already...

[davidn3600]

11. It's the number they've been saying in the media all day

They are saying the overruns and the research and development will ultimately push the cost to estimated $4 billion.

[GummyBearz]

25. Can you please link me to the proof

When I try to search for it I just see news reports such as:

"The Air Force hasn’t released a total dollar amount for the program yet. The program includes two aircraft and is still in the development stages. So far the Air Force has budgeted $2.7 billion for the program. But that’s for research, development and testing—not manufacturing. And the Air Force expects “this number to change as the program matures with the completion of risk reduction activities,” the Air Force said in a statement.

The real cost could grow to $4 billion, according to an analysis by Todd Harrison, a defense analyst with the Center for Strategic and International Studies. The aircraft are projected to be operational by the mid-2020s, officials said."


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/12/06/citing-cost-overruns-trump-says-boeings-contract-to-build-air-force-one-should-be-canceled/?utm_term=.2375ed04ccb3

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. Here's a good explanation of the project and its costs:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/dec/06/donald-trump/fact-checking-donald-trumps-tweet-air-force-one-bo/

The cost will approach $4bil but that's over a 12-year period. Politifact calls the statement "half true."

The company is actually building two planes, not one. As for the price tag, Trump has more of a point. The project’s current cost is $3.73 billion, which is within shouting distance of Trump’s "more than $4 billion." That’s a projection over 12 years. Also, that figure is an amount that could rise as time goes on.

However, Trump glosses over some important context. National-security requirements, not Boeing, have been the primary driver of high costs. Experts say the costs are broadly in line considering the high-tech and security requirements of a presidential plane.

The statement is partially accurate but leaves out important details, so we rate it Half True.

[nolabear]

7. Here's the local (Seattle) news' take.

The current AF1 has thirty year old jet engines. They are too old and not efficient fuel or otherwise. AF1 has things we cannot imagine. It is as radiation proof as anything on the planet that can fly. It has redundancies that other planes do not have, and should, and does not, have state of the art communications, defense and navigating equipment. Boeing claims trump's number is a gross overestimation. They're pretty pissed off.

[eShirl]

8. Trump always lies.

He can't help himself.

[Kingofalldems]

10. Amazing the way people jump in to defend Trump.

[doc03]

12. I noticed that myself nt

[JI7]

22. yup

[former9thward]

24. Amazing the way people defend corporate greed.

Especially in the defense industry.

[tammywammy]

33. In defense contracting the government knows how much profit the contractor is slated to make.

Fee & profit are line items in the proposal and routinely negotiated. Also, all cost data is provided to DCMA & DCAA and the customer. Cost data is a requirement of FAR part 15 & the Truth in Negotiations Act.

[former9thward]

37. So all the thousands of posts on DU about defense corporate greed

and over charging were all BS. Thanks for informing us of that....

[tammywammy]

39. I would say the majority of DU doesn't have extensive knowledge of FAR 15 & TINA requirements.

Governmental contracting is very different than the commercial world. All cost data is provided to the government. Profit & fee are spelled out in all proposals as are any milestone/performance incentives. R&D proposals are typically cost plus while production is fixed cost.

A major reason for cost increases are the customer changing requirements.

[Historic NY]

16. He will never fly on it, since the in service date is 2024.

[former9thward]

26. Why would it take 8 years to build an airplane?

Good thing Boeing didn't have that timeline in WW II.

[Adrahil]

41. It's not the airplane... It's the other systems.

About 15 years ago, I worked on the Presidential helicopter program. The flying part is easy. But both Air Force One and Marine One Are jam-packed with defensive systems and command and control systems. Missle defense, all kinds of encrypted communications gear, secure data equipment. All that gear has to work together without interference. And Air Force One has a fully functional operating room. It's way more complicated than just an airplane.

[pbmus]

30. 3.2 billion is the exact number..for 2 planes

Boeing said it could be cheaper if we didn't want some of the seats made of gold ...

Kakistocracy

[demosincebirth]

38. It's like the 200 dollar toilet seat

[leftyladyfrommo]

40. So far there is $170 million contract

For the design.

That is as far as they gave gotten.

Claire Mccaskill is on the committee and she said she doesn't know where old what's his face got his figure.

Funds would have to all be approved by Congress.

One report I read said that the CEO of Boeing had made a tepid criticism of Trump a out some business deal and Trump immediately came back with a threat to cancel the
Air Force One contract. That sounds like him