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Augiedog

(2,545 posts)
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:32 PM Dec 2016

Is a Hitler/Trump comparison valid? Or do you lose the argument when invoking Hitler?

In Volker Ullrich’s book Hitler: Ascent 1889-1939 . This biography of Hitler is the most contemporary and probably the best of many attempts at unearthing the demagogue and dictator. He describes the political rise of what many consider the great human monster of the 20th century. While this is arguable, the horror of Hitler is profound and his rise possibly preventable. On page 238 Ullrich quotes Thomas Mann, a Nobel Prize winner, in his “Appeal to Reason” speech in1933. The following is a direct quote from the book and I apologize for its length but it matters for today’s arguments.

On October 17 Nobel Prize winning author Thomas Mann issued an impassioned “Appeal to Reason” in Berlin’s Beethoven-Saal auditorium. The call was combined with a complex analysis of the intellectual and social preconditions for National Socialism. The Hitler movement would never have reached such a level of “mass emotional conviction,” Mann asserted, if it had not been preceded by “ the sense of the beginnings a new epoch and….a new spiritual situation for humanity.” People had turned away from the fundamental principles of a civil society-“liberty, equality, education, optimism and belief in progress”- and faith in reason to embrace “ the forces of the unconscious, of unthinking dynamism and of pernicious creativity,” which rejected everything intellectual. Fed by those tendencies and carried by “gigantic wave of eccentric barbarism and primitive, populist fairground barking,” National Socialism pursued a “a politics of the grotesque…replete with Salvation Army allures, reflexive mass paroxysms, amusement park chiming, cries of hallelujah and mantra like repetition of monotonous slogans until everyone foamed at the mouth.” Mann did not just excoriate the NSDAP. He also drew political conclusions. Only the Social Democrats, he said, seemed to be capable of stopping the forward march of the National Socialists. For that reason , he believed , the “political home “ of respectable, middle class German citizens had to be the SPD. Mann’s speech was repeatedly interrupted by hostile interjections, orchestrated by Arnold Bronnen, a former exponent of literary expressionism and friend of Bertolt Brecht who had converted to Nazism. “Our people spit on the head of Thomas Mann, who shamelessly insulted us in his lecture ‘Appeal to Reason’ “ noted Goebbels.

When I read this passage I was startled by the profound accuracy of what seems to be occurring today. If past is prologue, then here we go again. Trump is not a Fascist nor is he Hitler. He may be something worse, a capitalist demagogue with narcissistic ego maniacal psychopathology with the force and power of America at his fingertips.

In 1938 Time magazine proclaimed Hitler man of the year

TIME explained what was perhaps the most controversial of its choices thus: "Hitler became in 1938 the greatest threatening force that the democratic, freedom-loving world faces today" (1/2/39).

Today Time proclaimed Trump person of the year.

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JHan

(10,173 posts)
1. It dawned on me recently Trump is more like Iran's Ahmadinejad ..
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:35 PM
Dec 2016
"A liberal president is in power. This president’s victory was historical, and he has had many accomplishments. Still, many of his supporters believe he didn’t live up to his expectations, that he was too complacent and conciliatory, and therefore there was a huge divide between his supporters about whom should replace him.

The election begins. There’s a far right candidate who is trying to mix extremist far right ideas with a kind of economic populist message, who is a blatant liar, who presents himself as an “outsider” against both conservatives and liberals, and no one takes him seriously. People laugh and say he has no chance. But he does better than expected, and benefiting from a very crowded field of candidates, wins enough votes to face a single opponent: someone who has been in the corridors of power for more than 30 years, and represents the political establishment, and who is known as a centrist. To everyone’s utter shock, the far right populist defeats the establishment centrist. He has made use of some undemocratic cracks in the electoral system, but he has won.
All this might sound familiar to you. It describes the 2016 presidential election when Donald Trump wins the US presidency. It also describes the 2005 presidential election when Mahmoud Ahmadinejad wins the Iranian presidency.

Trump always reminded me of Ahmadinejad. I couldn’t help it. Both men are so bigoted, dishonest, hateful, and authoritarian. During the election I could see people scrambling to find someone to compare Trump with — Andrew Jackson, Zachary Taylor, Ross Perot, Neil Farage, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, and many others. But none of them make as much sense as Ahmadinejad. Donald Trump is the American Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

The similarities run deeper
.


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/marginoferr/2016/11/11/the-us-has-elected-its-ahmadinejad/#sthash.iV8Yhijd.dpuf

EDIT: As for Trump and Hitler you run the risk of the Hitler fallacy.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
12. Agree, but Trump is very different. OP, I believe
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:05 PM
Dec 2016

credibility is lost when comparisons are stretched that far. It should be.

Now, some of the people who hope to use a dysfunctional Trump--those are different! But most of those think Hitler's final solution and invading other nations six ways from Sunday were incredibly stupid/nutso. He had a good fascist thing going that he ruined. A little more time consolidating and he could have persecuted within reason without endangering his profitable, strongly controlled Reich.

VMA131Marine

(4,138 posts)
4. The implicit assumption in Godwin's Law is that nobody could be as bad as Hitler.
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:38 PM
Dec 2016

We are about to test that assumption. (Yes! I went there!)

WhiteTara

(29,704 posts)
8. Actually, the title reads Person of the Year Time.
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:51 PM
Dec 2016

And there is an old adage, "If it looks, acts and quacks like a duck, it is a duck"

Nonhlanhla

(2,074 posts)
10. There are similarities
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 05:55 PM
Dec 2016

Trump represents a global rise in extremist rightwing populism (see LePen, Wilders, Farrage, Modi et al), which is quite similar to the ideology of Nazism. Is he Hitler? No. No one is Hitler except Hitler. But that does not take away the fact that there are similarities.

world wide wally

(21,741 posts)
13. To avoid a long debate, let me put this simply so we can all agree on it and then deal with it...
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:06 PM
Dec 2016

Trump…. Not good

BainsBane

(53,031 posts)
14. Both Germans and Israelis have written about the similarities
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 06:08 PM
Dec 2016

And some who lived in German while Hitler ruled are terrified.

msongs

(67,395 posts)
15. most important comparison - reichstag re-wrote the laws to make everything hitler did LEGAL in law
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 07:41 PM
Dec 2016

just like repubs are about to pass laws to make all their shit legal and trump will not veto any of it. change voting laws, outlaw muslims and gays, jail time for abortion, camps for enemies. all will be LEGAL

16. I don't think Trump is Hitler...but I DO think he's a "soft" fascist
Wed Dec 7, 2016, 08:22 PM
Dec 2016

Probably more akin to Erdogan in Turkey and people SHOULD be worried about even more hardcore fascists following in Trump's footsteps. He's legitimized the alt-right strategy now.

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