General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forumsstonecutter357
(12,694 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)doesn't matter is an agent provocateur.
shenmue
(38,506 posts)jack_krass
(1,009 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)AgadorSparticus
(7,963 posts)Here's just one thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512652253#post11
Maru Kitteh
(28,322 posts)LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)TomVilmer
(1,832 posts)Yes, big nations tries to influence other nations often also in clandestine ways. Russia was famous for this during the Cold War. Less is told and remembered about what USA did against also supposedly friendly nations. This practice is still going on, and in Denmark we very well remember how USA tapped the Copenhagen Climate Summit. Leaked NSA documents suggests the NSA were spying on Denmark, and there are very good reasons to believe that the failure of the Copenhagen talks was in part due to a information war directed by the US government against other negotiators.
It's very OK to be unhappy about other nations clandestine operations in your country. But your outrage seems hypocritical to foreigners, until you start cleaning up your own game abroad - both under Republican and Democratic governments.
And your focus on Putin as the main villain for why this election was lost by the Democrats, is undermining your own political systems much more than he could ever be clever enough to do. Your system is not that fragile, so please stop claiming that it is. Most of the damage was done by normally patriotic U.S. citizens, who just wanted that Trump guy to win. Many people did weird stuff, and you have crazy people enough inside your country to get that president, you got.
Clean up your own system - and yes, do also send an angry letter to Putin. But do not feed him power by believing he has the strength to elect your presidents!
ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)"Send an angry letter"
"Focus on Putin"
Not an American, I take it?
TomVilmer
(1,832 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)Trump lost the popular vote by 3,000,000 . He won the arcane Electoral College by 80,000 votes out of 130,000,000 votes cast. Who isn't to say the Putin/Trump Axis was able to move a scant 80,000 votes.
Also, your argument that we did it so they can do it falls flat. That's as inane as Trump wanting to persecute all Muslims for the actions of ISIS.
TomVilmer
(1,832 posts)All your governments did this, so start to fix it and stop your governments from doing it.
Right now you and your country is in no position to be offended, that others do what you do.
First when you take a stand against such actions by any nation including your own, there will be a chance for sympathy and cooperation. Until then, all complaint are just kettles and pots calling each other black.
For me and the people from USA that I know and care about, your country is supposed to do better. Please start!
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)from your country.
TomVilmer
(1,832 posts)Any systems can be penetrated. If not by external access and clever hackers, then by any low pay guy in there willing to sell. But willfully to open the systems could be a way to make a new START treaty for hacking. In the old systems, you sometime had to open the lids so both was free to count how many weapons you had. Maybe the force of government hackers could be controlled in a similar way...
Except your voting system, where it would be extremely difficult for someone, including a nation-state actor, to alter actual ballot counts or election results by cyber attack or intrusion. This assessment is based on the decentralized nature of the US election system and the number of protections state and local election officials have in place.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)simply means that it has thousands of vulnerabilities instead of dozens. And it's meaningless in an age when a decent server farm can track all the types of hackable voting machines in use, all the voter databases, all tabulators, etc. Not a big deal at all; you don't have to hack all of it; you only need to hack just enough of it to flip a few vulnerable precincts in a few states.
And official "protections" are meaningless when almost all election officials are Russopublican partisans.
TomVilmer
(1,832 posts)Happy to read your criticism of your government officials. Here is some more of that Joint Statement from the Department Of Homeland Security and Office of the Director of National Intelligence on Election Security:
"The USIC and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) assess that it would be extremely difficult for someone, including a nation-state actor, to alter actual ballot counts or election results by cyber attack or intrusion. This assessment is based on the decentralized nature of our election system in this country and the number of protections state and local election officials have in place. States ensure that voting machines are not connected to the Internet, and there are numerous checks and balances as well as extensive oversight at multiple levels built into our election process."
Is it just that one part of the statement you feel is false, or do you also have problems with other parts missing evidence, such as the claims about what the Russian Government directed? And do please tell me more about how your political system "allowed all election officials to be Russopublican partisans". I would like to see links with evidence about this surprising reality you live in.
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)We now face a massive effort to root them out.
TomVilmer
(1,832 posts)I am sure that Putin will be happy to work with a man of your amazing combination of unhinged suspicion based on a total lack of evidence, constantly mistaking insults for arguments. You have so much in common!
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)The left in America has always opposed interference in the affairs of other nations, except in the narrowest of circumstances, so why should we suffer because the Russians have installed a puppet to rule us from the far right?
TomVilmer
(1,832 posts)... so please point to recent links, where anybody is putting two and two together like that. What I find here on DU is just constant harassment, where anybody trying to widen the story is named as "agent provocateurs" and "Putin puppets" - and what seems like the ultimate insult "foreigners". And by the way - if you are looking for the missing votes to elect the better choice, half of the voters stayed home. That is around 231,556,622 missing votes right there. I would say those many millions are your basic problem!
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I like to pretend that if I fail to see a certain thing, it absolutely does not exist as well. It's also fun to believe that criticism of a perceived action by a foreign government is to be ignored until my own country is righteous and pure. Bless your heart, regardless of your millions of basic problems!
Response to LanternWaste (Reply #25)
Post removed
jack_krass
(1,009 posts)enemies, and even potential traitors!!!! Theyre all against us so lets stop 'em all!!!!
APPRECIATE AMERICA!!
GO USA!!
APPRECIATE AMERICA!!
GO USA!
GO USA!
USA
USA
Response to jack_krass (Reply #8)
DemocratSinceBirth This message was self-deleted by its author.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)A person should be free to believe what he or she wants. A person is free to believe DemocratSinceBirth deserves to have his ass kicked until he takes a swing at him.
The values on the pillars are liberty, unity, justice and equality. Those are values worth defending, am I right?
The guy pushing against those pillars has a hat that says bigotry and is festooned with markers that say sabotage and foreign propaganda. Those values are worth opposing, am I right?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)The images we infer are often those that best validate our biases, regardless of all the potentials out to get you.