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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsUniversity of Minnesota Football Team Will Play Bowl Game - Sexual Assault Case
http://www.twincities.com/2016/12/17/university-report-details-womans-sexual-assault-allegation-football-players-defense/See the link above for a long, detailed, possibly triggering story about this. I'll sum it up, briefly. Note: There are multiple triggers in this article, so if detailed descriptions of sexual assault are triggers for you, you might want to skip reading that story.
The University of Minnesota suspended 10 football players over a sexual assault that the local DA refused to prosecute. Other team members decided to boycott the team and refuse to play in an upcoming bowl game - to support the suspended players. Yesterday, after a long, long meeting with University staff, they decided that they would play, so the bowl game is on. Here's the back story:
The original case of sexual assault occurred when a number of football players, and a recruit were involved in what was essentially a gang rape on a 22 year old woman. In the story at the link, you can read what happened, but it involved what used to be called "pulling train" on this woman. The guys were lined up outside of an apartment bedroom for their turn to have sex with an intoxicated young woman. And so they did, one at a time and more than one at a time. The players claimed it was consensual. The woman claims that she withdrew her consent when she realized that a whole line of people were planning to have sex with her. The details are disgusting, as you'll see if you read the story above.
Why did the other players decide to drop their boycott? That's unclear, but it's probably that the university heads told them that they might just not have a place on next year's team if they boycotted. I don't know. However, what I'd have done would have been to ask them how they'd feel if it were their sister lying on that bed while a line of men waited to assault her sexually in various ways. Sports broadcasters in the area were all incensed that the University had suspended the men, when the DA wouldn't try them. Football is important, they claim.
What happened was that a women who was intoxicated was gang-raped. Who would consent to having a bunch of guys have sex with you like that? She may have consented to the initial sex with one or two, but nobody signs up willingly to "pull train." It may not have been a prosecutable case, but it sure as hell was a serial sexual assault by multiple people on a woman who had slammed down several shots of vodka.
Is football that important? I'd have expelled them all, if I were in a position to do so. The coach of the team will probably lose his job, since he also supported the boycott. It's a University, not a professional football organization. No woman should be subjected to a gang rape. Period. Who could think such a thing was OK? And what if the woman were your sister?
I say expel the whole lot of them from the University. And institute a serious training program for future players where they get introduced to the idea that gang raping an intoxicated woman is a bad idea that will lead immediately to the end of their football careers, whether they thought consent was given or not. There must be some standards of behavior and they should be enforced vigorously. It's time for college athletics to lose it's license to do heinous things without punishment.
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FarCenter
(19,429 posts)
MineralMan
(146,248 posts)to prove the issue beyond a reasonable doubt. That's why. It was a "he said, she said" situation. The University has a different standard, and can expel students for such behavior using a different standard than our criminal standard that requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Personally, if I were that University, I would have summarily expelled the lot of them. There is, in my mind, no possible excuse for such an incident to occur. I cannot see any situation where adequate "consent" could be given for a gang rape, which is what this looks to be. Could I prove that in court? Nope. But, attending a state-run University is a privilege, not a right. Kick their asses out.
And, had the team members not backed down on their boycott, I'd have removed all of them permanently from the team and pulled their scholarships. That University has a code of conduct for its athletes and rules that must be followed. I would simply cut any player who refused to play a scheduled game. Period. They would no longer be on the team. If they all leave, then recruit a new batch of athletes for the next season and start over.
I don't really give a crap about college sports in the first place. And I truly loathe the sense that athletes in major sports seem to believe that they can do pretty much anything they want with total impunity. Screw that!
MineralMan
(146,248 posts)Scroll down and you can download the Student-Athlete Handbook, which contains the University's Code of Conduct for such athletes.
Here's the section of it on Sexual Assault and Harrassment:
The Athletics Department is committed to providing a safe and healthy environment for all of its student-athletes. Sexual harassment is unethical and unlawful and may result in department, University and legal sanctions. Sexual harassment includes unwelcomed sexual advances, sex-based conduct that is intimidating, hostile or offensive, requests for sexual favors, and/or other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature that is prohibited by the University. Complaints of sexual harassment by a student-athlete will be promptly addressed and should be reported to the Office for Student Conduct and Academic Integrity.
Consequences for harassment may include:
1. Verbal and written warning and participation in educational sessions.
2. Suspension from the team.
3. Loss of eligibility and dismissal from the team.
4. Loss of athletics related scholarship aid.
5. Dismissal from the University.
Examples of prohibited conduct:
a. Unwelcomed sexual flirtation, advances or propositions.
b. Continued or repeated verbal abuse of a sexual nature.
c. Sexually degrading language to describe an individual.
d. Unwelcome remarks of a sexual nature to describe a person’s body or clothing.
e. Display of sexually demeaning objects or pictures.
f. Offensive physical contact, such as unwelcome touching.
g. Coerced sexual intercourse.
h. Sexual assault.
i. Rape, date or acquaintance rape, or other sex offenses either forcible or non-forcible.
Crash2Parties
(6,017 posts)There is a 90 second video which shows her being a willing participant with the first two players. Also the examination she had at the hospital showed no damage to her genitals. I would assume the DA thought it would be hard to get a conviction considering these two pieces of evidence.
I have read the whole report from the university and the police. The OP gave a very slanted view of the report. The alleged victim had several drinks before going out. However, the university report says that statements from the alleged victim and witnesses say she was not so impaired that she couldn't give consent.
However, the university's code of conduct says that you must get affirmitave consent throughout the activity and the suspects admit they didn't get that. There were also some other school conduct codes that the the players violated, so the suspension seems justified.
obamanut2012
(26,041 posts)
Tatiana
(14,167 posts)What would make them do such an awful thing? Lack of parenting? Rape culture? Influence of porn?
And to drag a recruit into that mess... Inexcusable!
I did not read all the report -- I could not. There is something terribly wrong with the way we treat women in this country. Donald Trump epitomizes the attitude these football players had toward this woman.
When did sexual assault become OK? I am so, so very disheartened by this story.
I'm glad the U of M administration finally stepped up and did the right thing. But that woman will have to spend the rest of her life living with what those players did to her.
MineralMan
(146,248 posts)I simply don't understand the mindset that would allow a group of young men to behave in that way. Something is missing in them. Frankly, I cannot even imagine what the attraction might be to engage in such a thing. It would be disgusting to me to even consider, and I've never encountered anything like it in my 71 years.
There is a problem with student athletes having privilege in schools where sports are treated as something more important than academics. All too often, those athletes come to believe that they are somehow not required to follow the rules everyone else must follow. That privilege begins even in high schools in many places and continues into collegiate sports and even into professional sports.
Athletes are given a pass on behaviors nobody would tolerate from any other group. That is why I dislike the extra focus on athletics in schools, while academics and other activities often seem to be only tolerated.
I hope the U of M follows through with better enforcement of its rules of conduct for its athletes, as well as for the rest of the student body.
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)You must have some evidence that the DA didn't have.
Tatiana
(14,167 posts)So, indeed, I believe some of those players committed sexual assault.
I just because it could not be proven in a court of law beyond a reasonable doubt does not mean that there isn't a preponderance of evidence that indicates the victim was sexually assaulted.
Why would anyone text the victim later to ask if she was OK, if she consented to the acts and had such a great time?
spanone
(135,781 posts)MineralMan
(146,248 posts)story and how it has been treated by the sports community here. Far too many sports journalists are suggesting that the school's actions are too harsh and that these "poor, misguided boys" shouldn't be punished for their horrible behavior.
It's symptomatic of a broader emphasis on sports than on academics at our major universities. I find it very troubling.
spanone
(135,781 posts)penn state comes to mind.
highly troubling.
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)It's like some people learned nothing from the Duke Lacrosse case.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Washington State is the rapists' opponent in the Holiday Bowl.
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)I fear this is a rush to judgement influenced by race. Everyone should be protected by due process. In this case, these men weren't prosecuted because the DA, based upon a review of the evidence, didn't believe they had broken the law. Or at the very least their wasn't suitable evidence to prove it. But in the court of public opinion and bigotry, that doesn't matter because they are black and young black men are always guilty. Is that right?
But it doesn't surprise me that some feel they are still guilty. Based on what? Circumstantial evidence? No, racism, IMO.
I hope these young men file and win a mega bucks lawsuit against the school.
MrsMatt
(1,660 posts)can, and does, require that students adhere to a student conduct over and above that of criminal law.
The fact that no criminal charges were filed in no way influences that they failed to uphold the standards by which the University of Minnesota holds its students. It's a contract.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)One investigator watched a video Djam took of the incident.
"She appears lucid, alert, somewhat playful, and fully conscious; she does not appear to be objecting to anything at this time. ... (She) sounds as though she is somewhat intoxicated, but is not slurring her words and is certainly conscious and aware of what is going on," he wrote. "She does not appear to be upset by the sexual activity and does not indicate that she wants it to stop ... and the sexual contact appears entirely consensual."
Buford Sr., a Detroit police officer who serves as security director to the city's mayor, said he has seen the EOAA report and that it appeared the office concluded the players were guilty, in contrast with police and prosecutors who found insufficient evidence to press charges and the judge who lifted the restraining order. He said the players who were not suspended earlier were accused of being in the apartment that night.
"Somehow this EEOA has come up with something different. ... It's beyond me. It just reeks to the high heavens," Buford Sr. said.
http://collegefootball.ap.org/article/10-suspended-minnesota-players-wont-play-holiday-bowl
Maybe they concluded that it was "g. Coerced sexual intercourse. " from the list above. That's probably vague enough that it will fly as a Title iX offense as judged by the University's Office of Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action.
Since the offense occurred at the beginning of September, why did they do this just before the last game on Dec 27? Why not wait and suspend the players after the game?
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)Yet here we are....
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Just like an employer can terminate an at-will employee for unethical or immoral conduct outside the workplace, especially if that conduct is notorious and injures the reputation of the employer.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Jeez.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I would encourage you to do so.
whathehell
(29,026 posts)That's just what this is all about. 
oberliner
(58,724 posts)She says that she told the men to stop, but it was difficult with so many men present and her being naked to get anyone to listen to her.
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)I know it's hard for some to believe that black men could ever be innocent of a crime. Her allegations did not align with the facts from law enforcement's investigation.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And would instead believe that she consented to have multiple different men have sex with her and then would make up a story that the sex happened against her will and report that to the police and the university for some reason.
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)her allegations, and the DA declined to prosecute.
It's sad that you apparently believe black men are never wrongly accused of crimes they didn't commit. It happens all the time.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It's sad that you apparently believe women are never sexually assaulted unless there is a criminal prosecution.
It happens all the time.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And see what you make of everything that is described therein.
whathehell
(29,026 posts)
RedWedge
(618 posts)Some of the players themselves said they heard her say "I don't want to" and "this is too many people," and in the U's eyes, that's enough to break codes of conduct that every student agrees to abide by.
Coventina
(27,052 posts)Once she withdrew that consent, it was rape.
End. Of. Story.
obamanut2012
(26,041 posts)And that is evidence?
UGH.
Rape culture all over the place, including this thread.
mythology
(9,527 posts)up to racism.
I think the nature of what happened, and that it is exceptionally unlikely that somebody would willingly consent to sex with 10+ people along with the very low percentage of rape claims that are false, make it hard to believe that she was a consenting participant. It's far more plausible that they did gang rape the woman.
Yes you can point to a couple of high profile examples where the case was faulty. On the other hand, so can I. Brock Turner from Stanford, Brandon Vandenburg who was convicted in participating in the gang rape of his girlfriend along with Corey Batey and two others who are still awaiting trial, Baylor, Sandusky at Penn State, the University of Colorado under Gary Barnett, Harvard, Columbia, Amherst and Princeton all having to suspend teams for misogynistic behavior.
That's not counting trash like Jameis Winston who lucked out that the Tallahassee and FSU police departments botched the investigation into the rape he committed.
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)that this was a consensual matter. People have been into group sex and orgies since the beginning of time.
It's really something when the cops clear a dozen young black men, yet in the eyes of the public they are still just guilty black men. Poor girl couldn't have consented to *those guys* right? Crazy as it sounds, luckily for them someone had the good sense to film it.
MrsMatt
(1,660 posts)consensual (although she was drunk and impaired). Not the subsequent encounters, where she claims that she indicated an unwillingness to continue.
I still believe she was assaulted, because no matter what conspired previously, she revoked consent and at that point, it turned to rape.
http://www.twincities.com/2016/12/17/university-report-details-womans-sexual-assault-allegation-football-players-defense/
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)The men were cleared of any wrong doing by the district attorney. But of course that's not good enough.
How do you know she revoked consent? Were you there?
I realize that it's hard for most people to believe that young black men are ever innocent, but this case is an embarrassment.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Curious to know why you think this woman is lying about being raped.
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)After reading through the details, I came to the same conclusion as the DA.
Why do you insist on believing the woman's formally discredited allegations? I'm sure I know why.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)In fact, the university officials found her to be more credible than the accused.
From the university report:
While we find RS account to be generally credible, there are also times where EOAA cannot definitively
determine whether RS or one or more of the accused students' accounts are more likely
accurate. Given the available evidence, it is not possible to reconcile all discrepancies between
and among RS and. the accused students' accounts. However, based on the totality of the
circumstances (including the apparent failure of each accused student to provide full and trnthful
information, as described below) we generally find RS account to be more credible.
However, we generally find RS accol.mt to be more credible for the reasons detailed in the "Credibility. of
the Parties" section above, and also because A2 account is ·at times inconsistent with: (1)
credible rep01ts from other accused students and witnesses; and (2) ethel' evidence.
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)That does not mean her allegations are "discredited".
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"I realize that it's hard for most people to believe that young black men are ever innocent..."
It's bemusing you're the only one projecting Post hoc ergo prompter hoc motive onto all speculation other than your own. However, I realize it's hard for many people to believe male's are capable of rape, bias can do that to a person...
whathehell
(29,026 posts)whathehell
(29,026 posts) philosslayer
(3,076 posts)This puts the suspensions in a whole new light. I'm suddenly a lot more Sympathetic towards the accused.
MrsMatt
(1,660 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)For what reason?
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Then, for the sake of her reputation, drove herself to a hospital the next morning for a forensic examination by a sexual assault nurse examiner, and filed a police report the next day identifying five men that had sex with her and indicated that there were others as well.
Then a few days later wrote and provided the police with an eleven page narrative describing the events that occurred in that bedroom to her recollection. And then reported that she had been sexually assaulted to the university as well, undergoing interviews with university officials who deemed her (false?) claims to be credible.
Alternatively, several men engaged in sex acts with her against her will, and she was unable to stop them, and they lied and said it was consensual. And while there was not enough evidence to pursue criminal charges, there was enough evidence for the university to find several students in violation of their code of conduct.
Have you read the full report from the university?
obamanut2012
(26,041 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)She just made up a story about being gang raped because she is racist?
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)But the evidence does not support her claim as per the district attorney's review.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Have you read the university report?
Here is a short excerpt:
ln addition, RS recalls that numerous other men who she is unable to identify had sex with her.
RS believes that a total of ten to twenty men had sex with her in A2 bedroom, RS
cannot provide an exact number because she has limited memory of that tune period and because
she .is unclear whether some of the men had multiple sexual encounters with her. RS recalls
that some of these men held her down by her shoulders during sex. RS also ·recalls that, on
multiple occasions, more than one man had sex with her at once. RS ' cannot remember details
about these situations or the identitjes of the individuals involved. However, based on reports
from individuals present in apartment A that night, RS believes that some of the men may
have come to apartment 8 from the gathering in apartment A 3
At times during the sexual enc01mters that occuned after A2 and the recruit left the
bedroom, RS became aware that other men were inside the bedroom and clustered around the
open doorway of the bedroom. There were initially around five onlookers, but the crowd grew
as time went on. RS did not recognize these men at the time and still cannot identify most of
them. Several of the men had their phones out and may have been taking photos or videos. The
onlookers were chanting, laughing, cheering and jostling for a position in the line to have sex
with RS RS . remembers that the men were arguing over whose "turn" it was to have sex
with her. RS does not recall the onlookers speaking much to het.
Sometimes the crowd would open the bedroom dool' and watch men have sex with RS '· Other
times the bedroom door was shut. Sometimes RS would be alone in the room with one man.
Other times, other people would also be in the room. RS : repeatedly wrapped herself in a
blanket to try to shield her body fi·om the men, who she did not want to see her naked. RS
does not recall ever being in the bedroom alone; there were always men in the bedroom or at the
doorway to the bedroom.
RS became increasingly confused and repeatedly asked where all of the people were coming
from. She repeatedly yelled at the crowd to stop sending people in the bedroom. She repeatedly
yelled, "I can't handle this many people" and "1 don' t want this to happen." She yelled several
times that she hated the onlookers, to which they laughed and someone responded, "ha ha, why?"
At one point, RS asked the onlookers to "get A2 ., because she thought that he would help
her. In response, someone said that "he has had his turn and you hale a lot more to go."
http://kstp.com/kstpImages/repository/cs/files/U%20of%20M%20EOAA%20redacted5.pdf
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)despite the DA's findings?
Black men are often guilty until proven guilty and if proven innocent are still guilty in the eyes of many. It's sad but I'm not surprised.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Sadly, much of the time, they aren't, and many men who commit sexual assault get away with it.
There is no question that multiple men engaged in sex acts with this woman that night (and that some of the men recorded said sex acts). The only thing that is in question is whether or not this woman consented to having this occur.
She says she did not. The evidence presented was enough for the police officers to recommend charges against four of the men, but the prosecutor's office decided not to pursue those charges.
The university investigation found that there was enough evidence to establish that the students in question violated the university policy with respect to sexual harassment and assault and punished them accordingly.
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)we can't convict people, including black men, without a trial.
You can't say for sure what this woman's intentions were by bringing the allegations.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I am just saying that, having read the report, I find the action taken by the university to be more than reasonable.
Further, I think it is unfortunate (to put it mildly) that so many women are sexually assaulted in this country and the male perpetrators are able to get away with it for one reason or another.
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)Punished these young student atheletes in contrast to the findings of the actual justice system.
Our justice system isn't perfect, but it's all we have. Black folks deserve to have a system where innocent is innocent and is assumed until proven otherwise.
That's all I'm saying.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The university has a Code of Conduct that it is possible to be in violation of even without being charged with a crime. The standard of evidence is different, much like the distinction between a civil and criminal case.
Women deserve to have a system where they feel that justice will be served when they are the victims of sexual assault.
Perpetrators of sexual violence are less likely to go to jail or prison than other criminals.
Out of 1000 rapes, 994 perpetrators will walk free.
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)You assume this was a legitimate rape, yet the DA felt othereuse. Why is that?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It lays out the definitions and explanation for their findings with respect to code of conduct violations.
Again, criminal charges require a different evidence standard (guilty beyond reasonable doubt) than university code of conduct violations (preponderance of evidence, 50 percent plus one).
We have a system where you are innocent until proven guilty. Anyone accusing anyone of a crime should not be automatically believed. The accusers, and the suspects, should be treated with respect and the allegations should be fairly investigated. I've never been accused of
a crime, but if I was I do not want the police or DA just believing the person who accused me. And neither should you.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And based on that system, no one has been charged with a crime in connection with what occurred.
Universities (and other organizations) also have their own codes of conduct and can address violations accordingly.
Plagiarism of a term paper, for instance, will not generally result in criminal charges, but could get you suspended from a university.
With regard to sexual assault on college campuses, most perpetrators get away with it for one reason or another, and I think that is unfortunate (to say the least) and ought to change.
RedWedge
(618 posts)they shouldn't be held to the (admittedly lower) bar they agreed to and, in the university's eyes after following its own due process, failed to adhere to?
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)Because they are black, some want to hold them to an imaginary standard.
Where in the code of conduct does it prohibit participation in consensual group sex?
RedWedge
(618 posts)Also known as a "yes means yes" policy. It's hard to see where "I don't want to" fits into that.
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)RedWedge
(618 posts)However, under the policy (and basic human understanding), consent can be withdrawn at any time. "I don't want to" sounds like withdrawal, and the OED agrees.
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)could be referring to a specific act or sexual position. I don't know, I wasn't there nor were you.
Based on the evidence it appears she was a willing participant and the justice system opted not to prosecute...meaning these men maintain their innocence.
RedWedge
(618 posts)Look, I agree with you about institutional racism. It's definitely a scourge. And there's a ton of room between "preponderance of evidence" and "beyond a reasonable doubt." I'm always interested in hearing the thought processes of someone who reads the same thing I do and comes away with a completely different understanding of it, so thanks for your patience.
Kang Colby
(1,941 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Your rationalized consistency as to the innocence of males is always heart-warming.
whathehell
(29,026 posts)the lack of credible reasons than it does with the district attorney's review.
deist99
(122 posts)In the report it says she texted one of her friends after the incident and said I think I just had sex with a bunch of black guys. This leads me to believe the victim is white.
Having read both reports I think there is not enough evidence to support either side. Yes she may of been gang-raped or she may have had a gang bang and then felt guilty about it afterwards and cried raped.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Cry rape?
This person subjected herself to being interviewed extensively by police as well as university officials, where she described in detail the circumstances around multiple men engaging in sex acts with her.
You think she just went through that for the hell of it?
And also, in your scenario, made up details about being forced to engage in specific sex acts against her will - lying to police and university officials (who found her credible via witness corroboration), because she "had a gang bang" and "felt guilty about it" ?
Did you read the university report and/or the police report?
deist99
(122 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I would be curious to know if it has any impact on your opinion of this situation.
It is regrettable that a woman making a false accusation in 2009 puts every claim of sexual assault into question. It is already very difficult for a woman who was sexually assaulted to come forward under the circumstances.
I have read both the university and police report. It seems we both did, but came away from it with two different perspectives. Probably because of our different life experiences. I was a MP for some of my years in the military and also served as an equal opportunity officer for a time. From my experiences and talking with many other people in these fields, both men and women, I believe the percentages of false accusations is much higher than the 2% that is loudly proclaimed by the powers that be. I would place it at 30-40% of all rape allegations.
Here is a link to the wiki page on false accusations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape. The studies listed are a good place to start if you want to research the topic yourself and not just take the pundits word for it. If you look at the studies that have been done they have come back with everything from 2% to the ludicrous 90%.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I agree that our opinions probably come from our differing life experiences. For example, it is hard for me to imagine a scenario where a young woman would voluntarily consent to have multiple men previously unknown to her take turns engaging in sex acts while others watched, took video, and cheered the men on, but apparently that is something that happens.
I appreciate your willingness to respectfully engage in the discussion here in spite of our different perspectives.
I also appreciate your repectful responses. I firmly believe to get to the root of the problem you have to correctly identify it. To often in these discussions emotions take over and reason and respect go out the window.
I currently have a daughter in high school and some of the stuff these girls are doing nowadays blows my mind. They aggressively pursue these boys in many cases. My wife and I are both blown away by it. It is certainly not like when we went to high school in 80s.
whathehell
(29,026 posts)Just salon's.
obamanut2012
(26,041 posts) cwydro
(51,308 posts)They got lucky by not getting prosecuted.
No doubt their parents are very proud.
Ugly stuff.
Oh, they are university athletes, so I bet theie parents are very proud.
MineralMan
(146,248 posts)Race has nothing to do with my disgust at anyone who would line up to have sex with a woman who was under the influence of alcohol, or even if sober. I don't care who those young men are or what race they are. Decent people do not participate in stuff like that. They just don't. And I can't imagine a young woman consenting to "pulling train," either. Even if consent existed, it's a disgusting display of the worst possible elements of human nature.
If I encountered such a situation, I would do everything in my power to stop it from continuing. I have a sister. I have a wife. I have a mother. I have many women as friends. I would not allow such an event to continue if it was in any way possible to stop it. I can't imagine any circumstance where I would be a participant. It simply wouldn't happen. I have a conscience. I'd like to think that everyone does, but apparently that is not the case.
Race does not come into play in how I feel about this. Nobody's disputing that the serial sex by a line of men took place. That, in itself, is enough, as far as I am concerned, to deserve serious consequences.
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)What exactly should the "serious consequences" be if everyone consents?
MineralMan
(146,248 posts)But real consent is always required, as far as I'm concerned. Real, enthusiastic consent. If there is that, whatever people want to do is fine with me. I'm not seeing that kind of consent here.
Got it. You think consensual gang bangs should be illegal. How about threesomes? Oral? Anal?
Is it just missionary position only in your world. Sorry I might not participate or even agree with certain activities but I don't want it outlawed or people punished for it.
Personally, I don't think that university's should be involved in handling any criminal cases on campus. Should leave it to the police. I don't see colleges handling murder cases so why are they getting involved in rape cases.
MineralMan
(146,248 posts)My opinion is my opinion. You know nothing about my attitudes about sexualiy. However, my attitude about consent is simple, and I have followed one rule all of my life: Only enthusiastic consent is real consent. Anything less is no consent at all.
mythology
(9,527 posts)I don't know any other guy I would feel comfortable saying "hey do you want to have sex with this unconscious woman?" Yes I know it's rape when she isn't consenting, but I assume they rationalize it by calling it sex rather than thinking that they are raping her.
I don't know if a training program at college is soon enough. I think it should start well before that. And we need to start instituting real punishment for those rapists that do get convicted. No more 30 day sentences or work release. Put a real punishment behind it. We were willing to do so for petty crime or drug users, we need to do so for rapists.
Last edited Mon Dec 19, 2016, 09:04 AM - Edit history (1)
Here is the problem with our soceity today, people read a headline and jump to conclusions. If you had read the report you would know that at no time does she say she was passed out or even impaired to the point of not being able to give consent by the alcohol she drank in her own room before she went out.
I know that the university report is long but shouldn't we read these things before we form a conclusion.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)From the report:
During that time, RS took 4-5 shots of 100-proof vodka. RS had not drank alcohol in several months and was dehydrated from so the alcohol impacted her more than she had intended. She became "very drunk to a level she doesn't reach often."
She could only remember bits and pieces of what had just happened. She had no sense of how long she had been in A2 bedroom or of how many men had had sex with her. She remembers wondering, oh my god, how can I not remember what just happened.
deist99
(122 posts)We considered whether RS was incapacitated by alcohol during her time in apartment 8 . According to University policy, consent for sexual contact is not obtained where there is incapacitation due to the influence of alcohol. While in apartment B , RS felt intoxicated by the alcohol that she drank earlier in the night and her judgment was likely somewhat impaired. However, information from multiple sources (including from witnesses, RS herself and videos of RS taken that night) indicates that her alcohol consumption did not significantly impair her ability to co11trol her physical movements, her ability to communicate effectively or her awareness of her circumstances and surroundings. Based on this evidence, we find that RS
·was not incapacitated by alcohol under University policy.
The university report indicates that she was not incapacitated by alcohol but that her judgment was likely somewhat impaired. The report also indicates that four of the men in question violated the sexual assault provision of the school policy and five other men violated the sexual school's sexual harassment policy with respect to what happened to this woman on the night in question.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)No football, no bowl games.
I believe her. I will always believe a victim over ANY entitled athlete.