I used to think that Mike Pence as president would be a very bad idea

[La Lioness Priyanka]

worse than Trump, but I take it back.

Trump has an appeal to his base that Pence does not have. Pence has the charm of a dead fish and was really unpopular even in his conservative state, and was likely to lose that election.

If we ever get back the House, I would risk a Pence presidency.

[ailsagirl]

1. blotus is worse

At least P pretends to play the game-- dumdum can't even try

[tenorly]

57. But to me, that's what makes Pence so dangerous.

He's even more bigoted and medieval than Trump, as his term as IN governor shows. His Sunday School teacher demeanor only makes him seem more reasonable and grounded.

I for one would rather keep the Rotten Orange on for the rest of his (hopefully one) term. Besides, why spare the Republicans the embarrassment.

[moriah]

64. IF we're going to try impeachment....

.... we first GOTV like hell for 2018.

If we can flip both, and in the meantime people try to get Pence implicated in any high crime or misdemeanor along with Trump, and choose to prosecute the VP first -- if we put it "So not as to disrupt government as much if the case is not found to have merit". Then 25-th in someone to VP and get Trump out..

That gives them two years to royally hang themselves.

Still, we should save that for a true emergency. I tend to agree it's best to make them live it down without a merciful impeachment.

[tenorly]

65. I hear you.

But with the built-in, 30-seat advantage the GOPee created for itself by way of Gerrymandering, plus next year's Senate electoral map (Dems defending 25 of 34 seats on the ballot), how much can we really do?

I suspect Trump himself, and his treasonous behavior, will do far more damage to his own regime than any Democrat could.

[TrekLuver]

58. At least this D-bag Pence would not embarrass the country every time he opens his mouth.

[pansypoo53219]

60. pence would not be able to get away w/ his worst shit. it would be very very bad for the GOP brand.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. You have articulated my thinking exactly.

I'm feeling the same about a Pence presidency.

And THAT is saying something.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

9. i know. i hate pence.

[Eliot Rosewater]

3. Well, gay people are in grave danger with him, but they are with Fuckface as well.

Hillary won the election.

The rust belt states were hacked, there is NO way 70,000 mostly black voters in Detroit vote but leave prez spot blank, there is NO way twice as many as usual do the same in FL.

Election was stolen. No republican should be anywhere near our White House.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

8. i dont think they were hacked. i think that people were manipulated by Comey at the last minute

but also by many others calling her corrupt with no actual proof.

[Eliot Rosewater]

54. 70,000 mostly black voters in Detroit leaving prez spot blank? no chance

[annielion]

69. Yes, the presidential election was stolen

Our voting system consists of privately owned computers with secret code. These computers are easily rigged and/or hacked. I suspect the senate was also stolen. The exit polls that were available definitely indicate election fraud in the presidential election. Also, Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania would not allow hand recounting of the ballots. We need to get rid of the computers and hand count paper ballots.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

4. He'd have the stench of Trump left all over him.

If Trump implodes before the 2018 midterms it would even help our chances in Congress and we'd be able to get a Congress that would slow his agenda.

President Pence would be awful but I'd rather take my chances with that than the absolute madness Trump could lead us down.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. yeah exactly. plus people are less loyal to his 'brand'

[Lucinda]

5. +1

[frazzled]

7. I think the same

He's uber conservative, but I think he at least understands how the government works, and would be more respectful of the courts and the processes and the institutions. He could lead to some very bad legislation, still, with the Republicans. But that would be legislation that is reversible. I don't think he'd be doing as much damage to democracy--damage that is much harder to repair.

[DemKittyNC]

12. Would be horrible for the LGBT community

as I would see him indulge in his war against us the most but it might be the best hope we could wish for right now it seems. tRump needs to go - ASAP!

[frazzled]

49. We've got the courts and SCOTUS precedence to protect us

I doubt there will be huge backtracking on LGBT issues—but we must remain vigilant, nonetheless.

[Phoenix61]

10. He couldn't be more of an embarrassment

on the international stage.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. that too

[madamesilverspurs]

11. It's a conundrum.

Trump is dangerous because he's nuts and he doesn't know what the hell he's doing.

Pence is dangerous because he's nuts AND he knows how to operate the levers of government.

Both are scary.


.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. yes, but with pence, normal politics works

whereas trump has some crazy ways of avoiding normal politics

[Tommy_Carcetti]

15. Poisonous snakes.

Both Trump and Pence are like poisonous snakes. Both are dangerous. Both could kill you if they bite you. Both you would preferably want to avoid at all costs.

But Pence is like a copperhead. His venom is slow moving, giving you time to get treatment. Trump is like a black mamba. His venom is super strong and will kill you within an hour.

If I was forced to be bit by one of those two snakes, it would be the copperhead over the black mamba.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

16. well said. i might quote you on this.

[redstatebluegirl]

17. I am not so sure this isn't their "plan".

They knew that Pence could not win a national election. They used Trump, knew he would become impeachable and then they would get their "true conservative" in Pence.

We lived in Indiana for a time, Pence is really really scary.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. yes, pence is the worst, but honestly he wont get elected on his own merit

he also does not have armies of trolls on social media defending his every action

[fleur-de-lisa]

19. My concern with Pence becoming President . . .

(well, one of MANY) is that we Democrats would breathe a sigh of relief, pat ourselves on the back, and then stop protesting.

Any actions proposed by a President Pence would be as horrible as those put forth by the Pussygrabber.

But because Dumpster is so hated, we can keep up the pressure with protests, rallies, and marches, and ensure involvement by people who normally don't pay much attention to politics.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

21. doubt it. pence is hated by social liberals. like really hated.

[leftstreet]

22. !! This !!

[TCJ70]

20. They're both bad for different reason...

Trump because he doesn't know what he's doing and has filled his cabinet with unqualified whackos.
Pence because he would know what he's doing and would put people in place to pull it off.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. elections have consequences and the next 4 years will suck

but question is whether 8 years will suck. whether just winning the house in 2018 will stymie some of this suckage etc.

not electing HRC is having some dire consequences/

[fleur-de-lisa]

24. Great post! eom

[radical noodle]

31. Exactly

Pence would not bring out the resistance the way Trump has. At least I don't think so. He's quieter and more circumspect in his ways of undermining us so it might not be noticed.

[Maru Kitteh]

25. Pence has all the appeal of a bag of wet cardboard. I'd take him TODAY.

IMPEACH THE CHEETO SHITGIBBON

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. we dont have the numbers to impeach. earliest this could happen would be 2018

[Maru Kitteh]

36. Mark me down for predicting impeachment prior to that.

Look how bad they are already fucking up - not even one month in. His popularity is trending to EPIC lows and impeachment will become an asset to republicans in a greater number of states.

There's no question he'll provide ample fodder for the cannons set against him.

[BainsBane]

26. Pence would be better

What makes Trump so bad is not ideology but his complete ignorance of government coupled with malignant narcissism. He's an unstable man, and to have him in charge of national security is dangerous.

Besides, the Russians own him. I doubt they have a relationship with Pence.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. agreed

[stevenleser]

35. That is where I am at. I have concerns that Trump will bumble us into a nuclear armageddon.

The chances of it aren't very high, maybe 15%-25% but they are much higher than with Pence or any other marginally sane person.

[radical noodle]

27. Maybe but he is a real darling

for the religious right. Much more so than Trump. Worse yet, he appears almost normal in the eyes of many. He might not start a war, but he will absolutely try to take the rights of LGBT and women.

[ProfessorGAC]

44. Still A Toothless Tiger

Just remember Jerry Ford. A nice and honorable man who was a national laughingstock and ineffective POTUS because the stench of Nixon would not wash off. Once he pardoned Nixon to start the healing (yeah, right), he had as much change to be effective as my dog as POTUS.

[radical noodle]

45. Yes I remember him well

We're in a different place now, although you could be right. Everyone in Indiana knew what Pence was when he was a representative but they still elected him as their governor.

[ProfessorGAC]

48. I Get That

But, worming one's way into a state mansion is different than having sway over a whole country when you're overseeing the aftermath of a trainwreck.

[radical noodle]

52. So true

I just worry that after Trump, Pence will look normal.

[guillaumeb]

28. Pence provides the illusion of competence and professionalism.

But his performance as Governor showed that he is a far right theocrat who left his state in worse shape than he found it.

[padfun]

59. Yes, even Indiana Repugs are turning back his decisions

And that says a lot!

[Raven123]

66. Exactly

We seem to be between a rock and a hard place. Should Trump leave office, you can bet the theocrats and the Paul Ryans will be dancing in the streets.

[guillaumeb]

68. Exactly. And welcome to DU.

Trump is the distraction while Pence, Ryan, and McConnell remake the country.

[HughBeaumont]

32. Exchange Plutocracy for Theocracy.

We really need to get these country-damaging idiots out of power either way.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

33. no shit, but that's not going to happen till 2020

[radical noodle]

46. That's it

Not sure that's a good trade off.

[DonCoquixote]

34. here are some points to ponder

The danger is, while Trump knows that if he goes after Social Security and Medicare directly, he is toast, hence really doesn't give a damn. Pence knows he will be isolated by the American Christian Taliban who will be perfectly happy as long as he strikes down abortion, punishes gays, closes public schools, and brings back school prayers. The difference between Donald and Mike is that Michael's people are already used the focusing on certain things. If America came to a level of abject poverty, I mean dustbowl level poverty, the churches can go ahead and say that is either a punishment for electing Barack Obama, or that the Lord is putting people through a test, so that they will be less materialistic, which means stop bugging those rich people who obviously are chosen by God to be the Masters of the world. Trumps main weakness is that he has to promise a lot, there is no way he could sell himself as anything less that a revolutionary president. Mike however has mastered one thing that religious people, be they Taliban or the American Taliban know well: be subtle, act humble, and manipulate everything behind-the-scenes.

Yes, part of me would really love to see Trump go down in flames, if nothing else because the flaming residue would have to stick to some of those Trump voters. However, I have no illusions about what Mr. pence would do, especially as he is a good friend of Paul Ryan. Yes Trump offers many nightmare scenarios that could do everlasting damage to this nation, but the worst of all scenarios, is Mr. pence, Mr. Ryan, and Mr. McConnell getting together in Mike's new Oval Office and making a blueprint for how they will not merely dismantle every FDR program, but the very separation of church and state. If that ever happens, it will be time to get out of this country, the way many left Germany in the 30s. Whine about the Nazi comparison all you want, because when you have Steve Bannon Ray to act as Heinrich Himmler, the jackboot fits.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. as this scenario can ONLY play out if we win the house in 2018

i am less afraid of SS and Medicare being under threat

however, you raise some excellent arguments.

the GOP is NOT going to impeach trump. that's just a naive liberal wet dream (not saying that you believe that).

[DonCoquixote]

40. I do not think they would actually go through and impeach

no, if the GOP does try to force Trump out, it will all be done under close doors, and the proverbial smoke-filled rooms. Now what they will be capable of doing is blackmailing him, as well as pushing all his buttons to make sure that he either runs out of the Oval Office or gets a very convenient heart attack. To be honest, the only reason they haven't done that yet is because Trump is hidden behind Steve Bannon, and let's not forget, Betsy's brother Eric Prince, who is every bit the scary super villain that Steve Bannon fantasizes he is. However, just because the GOP is about 80% not stupid enough to go through an impeachment after Clinton embarrassed them, does not mean that they will not try to force Trump out, especially as Trump's ego and antics would make a breakdown or "retirement" very believable to the American public, especially when Fox and MSNBC will do their part to soften brain tissue.

[progressoid]

38. Let's work on 2018.

And put a stop to whomever is in the white house.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

39. agreed.

[aka-chmeee]

41. The other night, while contemplating our plight,

the narrative from Dune which has Baron Harkonnen dreaming his plot for Arrakis; putting Beast Rabban in charge to punish the people and then introducing Feyd Rautha as a saviour came to mind.

The narrative came first.....then an image: Bannon as the Baron, Trump as Beast Rabban and Pence as Feyd Rautha.
A shame my photoshop skills are not up to the task even had I found an image of the three together!

[Friend or Foe]

42. I also used to think that Pence would be a bad idea as a President

But, assuming that he got that position either by resignation, 26th Amendment or impeachment of Trump, then he would be the weakest, most illegitimate president in history.

He'd have to worry about his own pending impeachment trial once the House flipped.

[CrispyQ]

43. I think Pence is every bad as Don the Con with one exception.

I think Pence would think twice before using nukes - even in spite of his end times religion.

I don't see how we get the house back. The GOP controls 33 state legislatures & just did this.

House Republicans Just Voted to Eliminate the Only Federal Agency That Makes Sure Voting Machines Can’t Be Hacked
Republicans would make it easier to steal an election by killing the Election Assistance Commission.

https://www.thenation.com/article/house-republicans-just-voted-to-eliminate-the-only-federal-agency-that-makes-sure-voting-machines-cant-be-hacked/

In a little-noticed 6-3 vote today, the House Administration Committee voted along party lines to eliminate the Election Assistance Commission, which helps states run elections and is the only federal agency charged with making sure voting machines can’t be hacked. The EAC was created after the disastrous 2000 election in Florida as part of the Help America Vote Act to rectify problems like butterfly ballots and hanging chads. (Republicans have tried to kill the agency for years.) The Committee also voted to eliminate the public-financing system for presidential elections dating back to the 1970s.

“It is my firm belief that the EAC has outlived its usefulness and purpose,” said Committee chair Gregg Harper (R-MS), explaining why his bill transfers the EAC’s authority to the Federal Election Commission.

Thirty-eight pro-democracy groups, including the NAACP and Common Cause, denounced the vote. “The EAC is the only federal agency which has as its central mission the improvement of election administration, and it undertakes essential activities that no other institution is equipped to address,” says the Brennan Center for Justice.

This move is particularly worrisome given reports that suspected Russian hackers attempted to access voter-registration systems in more than 20 states during the 2016 election. Moreover, the Presidential Commission on Election Administration set up by President Obama in 2014 outlined an “impending crisis” in voting technology and the Brennan Center found that 42 states used voting machines in 2016 that were at least a decade-old and at risk of failing. The EAC was the agency tasked with making sure these voting systems were both modernized and secure.

[pnwmom]

47. Exactly. Pence doesn't have that Svengali thing DT has. n/t

[Jose Garcia]

50. He appears to be more mentally stable than Trump

[Starry Messenger]

51. All of what people have said--plus people aren't factoring in

the absolute carnage Pence would face politically having the head of his party removed in disgrace. People forget how much political and media oxygen is taken up with impeachment proceedings. It would stop the legislative agenda from gaining momentum and totally tarnish the GOP with the stink of failure and loss.

[Squinch]

53. I think it was here on DU that I read the best explanation of this I have seen:

Say you have terminal cancer, and you are driving your car to your chemotherapy and you get in an accident. You get an injury from which you could bleed to death.

When you get to the hospital they're going to treat the "bleeding to death" thing and leave the cancer for tomorrow.

Mr. American Carnage is the immediate bleeding to death. Pence is the long term cancer.

[retrowire]

55. I know it's a stretch and would take double the effort

But why not work to impeach Trump, then Pence, then whoever. Basically don't show any satisfaction until the wrong is righted.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

61. That would destroy the democrats

See what happened to GOP after impeaching him for no reason.

[AlexSFCA]

56. Pence would be better

because he has respect for all branches of government. He is also someone I would call part of the establishment and corporate friendly.

Corporations, donors are now lgbt friendly. Never forget that Pence, under business pressure, signed an amendment protecting gays to that anti-lgbt Indiana law. He will cave under pressure by establishment, business lobby, corporations, etc. This makes him a more conventional republican. We KNOW how to deal with those. He is VERY predictable and brings nothing new.

I think that the only reason trump chose him as VP is that he could get the nomination. Remember, it was far from certain before republican convention that he can lock it in regardless of votes. Pence does not share trump's policies and during the debates and interviews they would often contradict each other.

For all intents and purposes, Bannon now functions as VP.

[notdarkyet]

62. Won't have to. They have Pence lying on tape over and over about Flynn and Russia. He ?

Was defending Flynn honesty(hah). Seems Pence knew the truth.Congressman in ill? Asking for transcripts of the calls and conversations. Liars all of them. Even Pence. Throw them out. Non stop protests.

[Raster]

63. I would also. Everyone says that it was a shrewd move on Pence's part to support tRump*...

...I think it was more of a coin toss... Pence would NOT have won reelection. He is considered to be in the top five of the most unpopular governors.

If nothing else, Pence is not ignorant of the laws, as is tRump*, and would probably not be as erratic.

[Cryptoad]

67. Odds are higher on Trump

nuking the Planet! only difference....

[AwakeAtLast]

70. At least he would be quiet

As a current Hoosier, that is the only positive thing I can say about Pence.