There's only one man who can take down Trump and we'll need to prop him up: JOHN MCCAIN

[ElementaryPenguin]

He's going to stand up to Trump. He didn't survive hell on Earth to allow his country to be overtaken by the same enemy (for, of course, it was the Russians who were backing the North Vietnamese - and the Russians backing Trump and threatening to end American democracy.

The opposition must come from within the GOP - and it will be McCain who eventually call for an independent prosecutor. As Trump's star continues to decline - McCain's will increase. The Resist movement mustn't just oppose Trump - it must champion McCain. His popularity will increase - McConnell, Ryan will decrease. Republicans in Congress will fall in line behind McCain, who will become the defacto GOP leader.

McCain has the military and the intelligence community on his side. He will even get many Trump supporters and his poll numbers will skyrocket. John McCain is 80 years old and just won probably his final 6 year term. Trump publicly ridiculed his service to his country. Once again, his country needs his service. John McCain needs to be an American hero again. And we will need to help build him up.

[coco22]

1. Wrong!

We shouldn't have to prop him up he should do it as a duty to his country. What in the hell is wrong with the rest of their party. DO YOUR JOB!DO YOUR JOB!DO YOUR JOB! REPUBLICONS.

They can find all of the energy in the world to fuck over the American people.The CONS say move on we want to work on policy,yes Policy to destroy lives.

[ElementaryPenguin]

5. Yes, we know the GOP sucks - but they're the ones that have the power to stop it

And. McCain is the man of the hour - like it or not

[coco22]

10. ONE ..

if he dies then what?Mr. Vapors...I DON"T LIKE IT.

[ElementaryPenguin]

84. Then he'll be a martyr

[nikibatts]

59. He hates Obama too much to do it.

He secretly hopes Trump will do all he says and succeeds just to show up Obama.

[ElementaryPenguin]

87. I believe he hates Trump even more!!

Trump publicly ridiculed his service, stole what he himself had worked hard to achieve - the Presidency. I guarantee you he has no respect for the Orange Menace!!

[ElementaryPenguin]

6. I agree

[pangaia]

14. I wouldn't trust McCain as far as I can throw him.

[jodymarie aimee]

77. remember what a shit he was to Obama

when he lost...my goodness..took shots at him daily.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

3. It's still a month and a half to April Fool's Day!

[ElementaryPenguin]

7. You really don't get it, do you?

[50 Shades Of Blue]

13. I get it all right! McCain always caves!

[ElementaryPenguin]

64. We need help from the GOP

Who do you see as a better candidate for this role?

[50 Shades Of Blue]

68. Well, we're not gonna get it from John McCain!

I don't see any Republican risking the wrath of Trump. Least of all John McCain.

[ElementaryPenguin]

79. You may be right, but I don't think so.

[LanternWaste]

69. "We need help from the GOP" is a far cry from "McCain is the only one who can stop Trump

"We need help from the GOP" is a far cry from "McCain is the only one who can stop Trump," the latter lacking any objective evidence to support its own weight.

Moving goal posts, and continuously redefining a premise to fit the immediate rhetorical needs does not a good point make.

[Jim Lane]

135. Collins and Murkowski voted against DeVos

You ask about a better candidate for the role of Republican who'll stand up to Trump. Those two have walked the walk, at least to the extent of that one step. They were reported to be undecided about Puzder, too.

McCain has more stature and could do the cause more good, but he doesn't seem to be quite the "maverick" he once was.

[TrekLuver]

4. I'll "support" anyone who wants to take this asshole down.

[ElementaryPenguin]

8. Exactly!

x

[Ilsa]

50. "Wants" and is willing to act, against all pressure

from his GOP buddies. McCain wants stuff, but he isn't always willing to go to the mat. Maybe he's too tired, in which case he shouldn't have bothered to run.

[truebluegreen]

53. Has he ever gone to the mat?

I can't remember a time. He always seems to be posturing and taking "principled stands"--being all mavericky an' stuff--and then he caves.

[Ilsa]

60. I think the last time might have been when he was a POW.

And I deeply and humbly respect him for that. Battered, injured, tortured, the VC wanted to send this son of an admiral home for their propaganda, but only him. He declined unless all of the POWs were allowed to return home. I admire the strength and resolve he had to remain with his military brothers, even though he didn't know if he would survive. I hope he can muster that strength one more time.

[ElementaryPenguin]

63. I agree with you - but a POW vet...

He's got to have fortitude - even if he's often been a weak "maverick"

[ElementaryPenguin]

119. I'd be willing to bet he's got enough fight left in him to take on traitor

Trump!!!

[get the red out]

56. Me too!

This country might not survive Trump.

[bdamomma]

85. Yes we need

a politician who loves their country and not their party. For god's sake we have a threat in the WH, or a few threats in the WH.

[lame54]

9. Some talk - no action...

McCain as our savior?

Depressing thought

[ElementaryPenguin]

15. Allowing Trump to convert the US into a fascist regime - even MORE depressing!

[lame54]

20. That is in no way...

Last edited Wed Feb 15, 2017, 02:02 PM - Edit history (1)

A defense for your weak prediction

It's McCain or fascism?

They need to be taken down but I'm not counting on that phony

[ElementaryPenguin]

30. lame, I've hated most of McCain's politics - but a

Anyone who had to endure being a prisoner of war does need to be accorded a certain measure of respect for that alone - and I don't qualifies as someone who doesn't take action. My prediction may not be as weak as you think - at least we all better hope it isn't

[Blanks]

54. It isn't just McCain...

Graham is raising his voice to investigate.

We need to spin this in such a way that whoever is 'standing up to Trump' the strongest in the senate is likely to be the VP choice when Trump resigns.

That'll get some more senators on board.

[bdamomma]

86. yuk Graham

he had some choice words for Senator Warren.

[Blanks]

126. The point is that it isn't just McCain...

And it seems like there's another one coming out of the shadows.

[bdamomma]

129. i hope more than one

before he starts a fucking war.

[Blanks]

132. Rubio...

He was on the ABC evening news talking (briefly) about the Russian connection.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

11. The Enemy Of My Enemy Is My Friend

That's probably the best way to put it. While I disagree with the vast majority of McCain's policy positions, I do recognize that he is a legit war hero and he seems to be a good man, which our current White House resident is definitely NOT. So I say that ANY Republican willing to aid us in our fight to get rid of this farce of an administration should be welcomed with open arms.

[ElementaryPenguin]

17. Thank you! That's EXACTLY the point.

[SchrodingersCatbox]

130. The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy, nothing more

John McCain is not my friend. Having a common enemy only makes us allies of necessity or convenience.

[kentuck]

12. McCain would go down in history if he put country over Party.

There are few patriots left.

[ElementaryPenguin]

19. I agree, Kentuck, and I can't imagine him not taking this on.

[ElementaryPenguin]

24. Would be a true Profile in Courage

[bdamomma]

89. how about

a gofundme. page for McCain that is the only thing they seem to understand. $$$$$$

[Hekate]

25. The last old Cold Warrior standing, as Weiner said on Rachel last night. McCain is trying...

...to rally the troops as we speak. Good luck, Sir. They are a sorry lot.

[ElementaryPenguin]

33. And the military hates Trump already

Can't see them siding with Traitor Trump over Hero McCain, can you?

[Hekate]

43. By "troops" I mean his fellow Republicans in Congress -- who are a sorry lot

Personally, I never ever want to see a case where our historically nonpolitical military comes to our "rescue." That way lies real authoritarian government.

We have to make civilian politics work again, all three branches of the federal government, in order to save this democratic republic.

[ElementaryPenguin]

65. Gotcha

[Proud Liberal Dem]

16. John McCain is like Lucy with her football and we're like Charlie Brown hoping to finally kick it

Every time we keep hoping for him (and in some cases, Lindsey Graham) to be the lone sane and responsible GOP voice in the wilderness, he invariably disappoints us. We need to fold our arms, NOT hold our breaths, and WAITS until he actually does something productive and responsible before we start canonizing the guy. He is a GOPer first and foremost and his loyalty to McConnell and the RNC (and even to Trump) seems to be higher than that to the country.

[ElementaryPenguin]

21. True. But he's going to come through this time

[atreides1]

55. Uh huh

And you know this, how?

[Proud Liberal Dem]

66. What makes you so certain?

n/t

[ElementaryPenguin]

72. He believes he's a patriot

I don't like his politics any more than you do. But I don't believe a man with his history is going to idly sit back and watch a threat like Trump destroy a democracy he fought in war to defend (at least that's how it was characterized by our government at the time). Besides - Trump was also stupid enough to make it personal by ridiculing his service. A do-nothing draft avoider bashing the service of a decorated POW - wouldn't YOU go after him under those circumstances?

[dalton99a]

18. Problem is: When did McCain not vote with Republicans?

[ElementaryPenguin]

22. Very long time, it's true - but Trump isn't just a Republican - he's the biggest threat we've faced

[nolabear]

23. We don't need a savior. This needs to be a massive bipartisan act.

We need to back up the idea that the government on the whole is supposed to work for us, and demand that they do their jobs and get this travesty out of OUR White House!

[ElementaryPenguin]

26. But for GOP to get there - I'm afraid they will need a leader who will politically force them to do

The right thing

[nolabear]

27. Might be. Heck, I can't say I'd hate it as long as something happened.

[ElementaryPenguin]

35. All it gets us is a President Pence, but that's survivable

Whereas Dictator Trump may not be

[nolabear]

36. What a lousy set of choices, eh?

[ElementaryPenguin]

109. Indeed.

Pisses me off is that Hillary won this damn thing - and the Senate too!!

Cheating scum!

[truebluegreen]

61. McCain barely won the nomination in 2008...

and then lost the election: too moderate for the GOPee then. They haven't become more sane since. In short I doubt they consider him a leader, particularly in a direction they don't want to go (cutting their throats with their base).

[ElementaryPenguin]

67. I'm thinking they are going to end up wanting to distance themselves from the Trump hard right like

Ford did from Nixon

[truebluegreen]

122. I disagree. They are all the hard right now;

Trump is...something else. A wild card, unpredictable and uncontrollable. They will use him as long as they can, and then jettison him, as soon as they can cut him away from his base. Ironically, the Russia connection may do that: despite their admiration for the Great Leader, they want Trump to be strong and decisive like Putin, not subservient to him.

[Zoonart]

28. I agree...

Perhaps, if the Republicans continue to refuse the investigation, the Democrats in Congress and Senate should lock their doors and leave town to come home and confab with their constituants. Shut it down so they can't continue to take the train apart with 45 as their rubber stamp.

[ElementaryPenguin]

38. I like that idea, actually

[Ilsa]

62. McCain needs to be 1 of many 2 remind others about being on the right side of history. nt

[ElementaryPenguin]

83. Can't see too many other GOP members of Congress

With the credentials to do that better than McCain

[JI7]

134. agree. we should support mccain and anyone who wants the truth but stop with this "only one person "

Thing.

[Lotusflower70]

29. Makes sense

In a way. We need reasonable Republicans, I know that combination is hard to find. Because it can't just be Democrats. We have to move beyond the witch hunt, as least that's what the Republicans will label it in order to move forward. Granted we have to weed out those that are all talk and no action as well.

[Smickey]

31. Is he still the "Maverick" of times past folks will ask?

Probably not to the same degree but at this point who gives a shit. He's a patriotic American, like him or not he a powerful politician, knows the system and he seems to still be rational.

45 is a malevolent force that does not appear to be any of the above.

Come on Mav, your country needs you right fucking now.

[ElementaryPenguin]

39. Exactly!

[Blue_Tires]

32. uh.... no

Not quite ready to sign on to this yet...

Pence will be running the show in the event Trump gets removed, and there's no changing the line of succession...

[ElementaryPenguin]

42. McCain isn't going to become President and I understand your reluctance

But we haven't got a lot of great options at the moment

[LanternWaste]

71. Failure to see additional options does not deny the existence of additional options

Failure to see additional options does not deny the existence of additional options, it's merely a rationalization for an undisciplined mind.

I understand your desire to hold your idea as the only practical method, but it reflects bias and a refusal to allow any but your own unsupported premise as The method rather than A method.

We have many options at the moment... we need merely apply rational thought rather than maintaining the pretense that shaking a Magic 8 Ball is the only viable, available and valid option.

[ElementaryPenguin]

75. You make an excellent point, LW...

But we're going to need a movement within the GOP in Congress to pursue or threaten impeachment - and who do see effectively leading such a movement besides John McCain?

[Afromania]

34. In getting rid of Trump fine

anything else no, he's not trustworthy at this point. As for the 46th president, fat chance, because he's not in the immediate line of succession. Also, once again, he's not trustworthy.

[ElementaryPenguin]

40. He's not going to be President - but he might be more important

If he could engineer this

[Afromania]

57. gotta grown a real spine first

and separate himself from the Republicans and even then he gets the dirty side eye. We've been stabbed in the back enough.

[ElementaryPenguin]

80. Well, a POW has been confronted with much tougher

Circumstances, which is true even for one whose political stances have so often disappointed us

[Afromania]

82. indeed

which is why his flip flopping in regards to voting for Trump and generally walking lockstep with the Republicans while they drive the car into the ditch is troublesome. Either he's lost that backbone or he actually believes in the Republican shit enough to allow them to drive the car into the ditch and is just playing at being sane. Either way I'm not trusting anything he does until he does it.

[SticksnStones]

37. McCain?

The guy who wanted to be president so badly that he didn't bother to have Sarah Palin, et al properly vetted?

The guy who is a hammer and every global conflict is a nail?

That guy?

While I certainly see that McCain is no fan of 45, and is a leader in his party...I would not place all my eggs in his basket.

I'll wait to see what his actions are before dusting off my pom poms.

And in the meantime, I'll "prop up" Schumer and Schiff and all the leaders of the Democratic Party.

I trust their motives.

[lunatica]

41. McCain taking Trump down would be true Karma at its finest

[ElementaryPenguin]

70. Indeed!

[JenniferJuniper]

44. No reason to have any faith in him, although

at his age he should be thinking about his legacy and his place in history.

Think hard, Senator. Very hard.

[ElementaryPenguin]

49. I think his legacy will play a big role in this.

And he ran hard a couple times to President - whereas this fraud colluded with Russia to steal it

[hamsterjill]

45. I'd like to be hopeful about McCain.

Lindsey Graham, too.

But every time, thus far at least, that they even start to sound compelling, they have backed away, gotten in line and been good little Republicans.

I'd love to be surprised.

[ElementaryPenguin]

48. But there's so much more now...

Coming out - guys like McCain and Graham will have the upper hand attacking a weakened Trump'

[hamsterjill]

96. Hey, I hope you are absolutely right on target!

But I'll believe it when I see it actually happening.

[Hamlette]

46. I'm putting my money on the intelligence community to bring him down

They have the tapes this time. And if Trump doesn't stop blaming them for everything that goes wrong, they will simmer and leak.

[ElementaryPenguin]

47. Yes, the Intelligence Community is bringing it out

But to impeach - or the threat of it will have to come from GOP congressman, who I think would follow a popular McCain

[bdamomma]

92. yes the intelligence community has the information

on this POS, right now we have the Judiciary Branch and the CIA. I wouldn't mess with them.

[eleny]

51. He has enough personal reasons to lead the charge over the hill

It could be a great victory for him to deliver Pence to the Oval Office.

One thing I wonder, though, is if Pence is knee deep in this mess by knowing early on what was going on, then it's dicey for McCain. A major legacy could turn sour.

So I think we'll know a lot about Pence by McCain's actions. Unless of course he'll throw caution to the wind and take a chance. Trump's stepping down can be a huge smokescreen for Pence.

I may be undecided but your point is well taken. If someone is to lead the charge from the right, McCain is the major player. God knows that McConnell has very little role but to follow any parade.

[ElementaryPenguin]

73. Great post, eleny!

[Eliot Rosewater]

52. He has twitter, please tweet him respectively requesting he do this, everybody please do.

[ElementaryPenguin]

76. An excellent idea. Thanks!

[lame54]

58. When you think of McCain you think POW - I think of this...

[msanthrope]

74. Nope, nope, and nope. nt

[ElementaryPenguin]

78. Yes, yes, and YES!!!

:

[herding cats]

81. McCain is carrying Trumps water.

His response to the Flynn situation is to prop up the "it's that he lied" official WH spin. The Russian connections, the weakening of our intelligence community and the fact that a foreign country meddled in out elections are all a big "meh" to him. He's not going to take on Trump.

McCain questioning WH on Flynn's 'lies' to Pence

(R-Ariz.) wants to know why former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn lied to Vice President Mike Pence.

The Arizona senator said Wednesday he is sending a list of questions to the White House to try to uncover how and why Flynn misled Pence about conversations he had with Russia's ambassador to the U.S.

"First we need to ask questions and get answers and then decide" what's next, McCain said, according to Politico. "We will be doing that."


Despite renewed calls by some senators to launch investigations into the Trump administration's ties with Russia, McCain said Congress should first try to get an explanation from the White House.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/319663-john-mccain-to-probe-white-house-on-flynn-lies-to-pence

[eleny]

88. So he's making it his mission to prop up Pence

It could be because Pence needs it if he's to step into the presidency down the road. Looks like McCain is carrying Pence's water.

[ElementaryPenguin]

93. Well, Pence seems clean as far as Russia,

Which is obviously why they were keeping it from him. You can bet the evil Bannon is up to his ears in it!

[eleny]

97. So there's all this crap going on all around him and he has no clue? I don't buy that.

Pence is a dangerous element on any given day. I believe that he's capable of looking us in the eye with sincerity and stabbing us in the back - all in a single motion. For all we know he could easily have had knowledge of the Russia connection and be slick enough to put over an alter boy image.

[ElementaryPenguin]

105. Possibly.

[herding cats]

94. True, it's in part about Pence.

It's also the official WH narrative.

My suspicions are he doesn't want to add any fuel to this already scandalous WH that may weaken it further. The Republicans, McCain included, are focused on their own political agendas and careers. Trump being removed would be bad for their careers, even if Pence would be a good rubber stamp for their agendas.

[eleny]

101. I agree with you

But he's been around long enough to know ow a drip drip drip can turn into a deluge. So he may be poising himself for whatever happens. With the NSA going rogue with the leaks even McCain needs to be cautious as he steps into this.

[ElementaryPenguin]

91. Look - in the first days of Watergate congress was not calling for Nixon's head on a platter.

It takes some time to get there - and to get others to come along with him. This is going to build.

[hughee99]

98. Congress was run by Dems when Nixon was president, and

it still took quite a bit of time for them to get there. You won't get republican support by convincing them that Trump did something wrong, you'll only get their support convincing them they're better off with Pence.

[ElementaryPenguin]

103. That's a seriously low threshold to meet!

We'd be better off with our family dog as President!!

[hughee99]

120. Ironically, there will probably be some dems that would rather have Trump as president on the ropes

than actually go through with impeachment and give Pence essentially a fresh start and head start on 2020.

[ElementaryPenguin]

121. Yeah, but we can't wait around to see if this

Baboon is going to start using those nuclear codes ANYTHING to change the subject from his ties to Russia

[hughee99]

123. Well, we're going to have to wait around because impeachment isn't going to happen quickly,

if at all, and it's not going to happen without a significant amount of republican support in the house and senate.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the republican leaders took credit for getting rid of him. It's not like Ryan, Cruz, Rubio and McConnell, or the RNC in general was at all supportive during the primary, and several were reluctant to jump on board during the GE.

[herding cats]

100. During Watergate were the politicians laser focused on tearing down the government?

Because these Republicans in office are laser focused on that, they also know an impeachment would cost them seats in 2018. These are the issues they care about, Trump is just an annoying distraction from what matters to them.

[ElementaryPenguin]

118. No, they weren't.

You're right, these times are different. But Trump threatens to bring ALL Republicans down politically. They will cut him loose before too long.

[ghostsinthemachine]

90. I agree. Put country over party

I just sent him an email. Asking him to spearhead investigations and how, by doing this, he would become a hero. A nice walk off to his career.

Be a hero, Senator McCain. Put COUNTRY over party.

[ElementaryPenguin]

104. Great job! Thanks!!

[workinclasszero]

95. He and Graham need to hook up and take down Team Putin/Bannon 45

Contact between Trump campaign and Russian intel officials would be 'game changer,' Sen. Graham

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028653538

[ElementaryPenguin]

108. Graham will definitely follow him.

[BannonsLiver]

99. McCain is a party first, spineless weasel

Counting on him to do the right thing is futile.

He voted to confirm DeVos for fucks sake. Nothing to lose. Yet he still did it anyway.

Fuck him. That Barack Obama crushed his soul in 2008 to the tune of 365 electoral votes still makes me smile.

[ElementaryPenguin]

106. He's a Republican - but I don't think anyone can call him spineless...

Unless you "like people that don't get caught caught."

[BannonsLiver]

112. I'll call him spineless all day

Ever read or hear the accounts of the emergency meeting W. Bush called as the financial crisis was unfolding?

Obama led the meeting while spineless McCain sat there sweating.

W. Bush used his daughter as a racial bludgeon in the 2000 SC primary, and yet...



You can wish and hope for McCain to do the right thing. History says he never does when it counts.

Spineless weasel? You betcha.

[ElementaryPenguin]

117. As is your perogative.

I've got plenty of reservations about him as well.

[nadine_mn]

102. I don't think the current members of the GOP respect McCain

They certainly do not respect anyone who has served our country. You cannot not even wave the flag of so-called patriotism to get the GOP excited (like W could) - it is has been completely been taken over by $$. Every single GOP member will sell their soul, their country, their party for a price.

They don't care about their legacy, their constituents, their country - nothing. It's shameful.

For a party that prides itself on being the party of the military and of the USA, the GOP sure as hell is content to ignore everything that is happening.

My money is on the intelligence community - they are pissed and they have the information to bring down anyone in their way.

[ElementaryPenguin]

111. You make some good points...

But I think they'll start respecting McCain if he's the only Republican with great poll numbers!!

[JMCoast]

107. I agree

that McCain is absolutely a key, if not the key in this whole thing. Lindsay Graham, you could also put up there. It's going to take pressure, and lots of it to get these repubs to stand up and do the right thing. Nothing less than a 9/11 type commission is acceptable. DO YOUR JOBS

[Canoe52]

110. Only one man can fix this?

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I would like to disagree.

A president was just elected with that same promise.

A president is not brought down by one person, a president is brought down by the collective actions of many people, from the ones elected and from the everyday people (public opinion) who make their voices heard in the public arena.

[ElementaryPenguin]

115. Well, not literally one - we all have to make our

Voices heard, as you say. At least one leader must emerge from the GOP, and I submit that the best leader in that role would be McCain.

[Canoe52]

124. Point taken

But is it going to come from anyone from the GOPee? I don't have much hope in that.

[Crunchy Frog]

113. I'll support him if he does the right thing, but I'm not holding my breath.

[BannonsLiver]

114. If you did hold your breath you'd pass out

McCain can be counted on only to disappoint.

[ElementaryPenguin]

116. I can't see how anyone in his circumstances

Could conceivably stay out of this fight, unless they were senile, which he is not.

[BigDemVoter]

125. GAG

I LOATHE John McCain. It would be super, super hard to do, and I would have a hard time not vomiting.

[njhoneybadger]

127. Forget about McCain

He has always been a leaky vessel. Don't even consider it.

[ElementaryPenguin]

133. We don't have the luxury of being real picky!

There aren't a lot of progressive GOP congressional members that can lead a take down Trump movement. It's going to have to come from the majority party!

[Eyeball_Kid]

128. I disagree with the premise of this article.

There isn't "only one man." That sounds kind of corny as well as untrue. There isn't only one man, even though it would make a good premise for a fictional movie. In fact, that's standard fare in Hollywood. There are also many men, and many women, who can stand up to him. In fact, there are tens of millions. We can ALL stand up to him. We can ALL get active. If most of us do that, Trumpy will crumble like stale corn bread.

Pay attention to social media. Organize political protests. Partake. It's like "Communion" for all of us.

[ElementaryPenguin]

131. Eyeball, we do need to be active, but need GOP in Congress to IMPEACH

Or begin proceedings which may well bring about Trumpler's resignation. So the point is McCain best fits the bill to lead that cause - unless you can name someone better, which you are welcome to do. (Rather than merely offer a pointless thread title critique. And with a username like "Eyeball Kid" you would seem to know a thing or two about "corny."

[wildeyed]

136. McCain is the only Rep I ever donated to.

1999 during his primary against GWB. I was an early adopter of GWB hatred. I liked McCain's stand on campaign finance reform and admired his military service. I fully planned to vote for Gore in the GE, even if he won. But I felt like he was an honorable man and a waaaaay better choice than GWB if Kerry lost. I was right too.

Graham has always been ok too. He came out against torture during Iraq, even when it made him very unpopular with his base.

They can both be turds on many issues, but at least there is some glimmer of patriotism and honor left.