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BainsBane

(53,031 posts)
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 07:12 AM Feb 2017

A 50 state strategy requires a big tent

It means being accepting of red-state Democrats who may be more conservative than progressives and liberals like.

Targeting Dems like Joe Manchin and Mary Landrieu is inconsistent with a fifty state strategy because the politics of those states are quite different from blue states and districts that produce reps like Keith Ellison, Maxine Waters or Al Franken.

People may insist that true progressives could win in those states, but we haven't seen evidence of it. The defeat of the Bernie-backed candidates in 2016 demonstrated that progressivism does not necessarily mean greater electoral success, and those weren't in deep red areas.

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A 50 state strategy requires a big tent (Original Post) BainsBane Feb 2017 OP
I'd give anything to have Mary Landrieu as my Senator instead of Inhofe OKNancy Feb 2017 #1
Yet we still see people targeting Joe Manchin BainsBane Feb 2017 #2
Here in Kentucky get the red out Feb 2017 #4
speaking of Rand BainsBane Feb 2017 #6
I noticed that about Rand too get the red out Feb 2017 #44
Rand and Ryan are dreaming of an Ayn Rand utopia(dystopia) njhoneybadger Feb 2017 #77
That's what Dr. Dean thought and to a point, he was right Warpy Feb 2017 #76
Baucus had lots of problems but I don't think that was one of them dsc Feb 2017 #81
He wasn't ordinarily Warpy Feb 2017 #86
Very true get the red out Feb 2017 #3
This is the reality BumRushDaShow Feb 2017 #5
Yes, there are few safe blue states anymore BainsBane Feb 2017 #14
There's a chance to correct NJ this year crazycatlady Feb 2017 #29
Yup. BumRushDaShow Feb 2017 #30
He's been touring the state crazycatlady Feb 2017 #34
LOL that's cool! BumRushDaShow Feb 2017 #38
A Blue Dog Democrat is still better than a Republican any day of the week. Willie Pep Feb 2017 #7
As hard as it is for me to accept those postiions BainsBane Feb 2017 #8
I have always objected to the term pro-life. Demsrule86 Feb 2017 #22
+100,000.. PoiBoy Feb 2017 #57
Thank you. Demsrule86 Feb 2017 #64
When we have a majority, liberals will be committee leaders IronLionZion Feb 2017 #9
Exactly. A lot of people don't understand this. yardwork Feb 2017 #13
And moreso BumRushDaShow Feb 2017 #16
K&R Progressive dog Feb 2017 #10
Yes, she has been great NewJeffCT Feb 2017 #20
I think we will have to do more than "start over" with the party yuiyoshida Feb 2017 #11
Open our big tent, get rid of as many GOPers as we can first, then deal with Blue dogs and others nikibatts Feb 2017 #12
The problem with the Democrats who are really GOP-lite is that Republicans do not consider Vinca Feb 2017 #15
In this case BumRushDaShow Feb 2017 #19
if Democrats had just won one more seat in the senate NewJeffCT Feb 2017 #21
We should have gotten Feingold and McGinty BumRushDaShow Feb 2017 #23
I've seen several stories quoting Republican Senators rpannier Feb 2017 #35
I'm not sure Murkowski and Collins would have voted against her though. They knew the count seaglass Feb 2017 #37
Would Merkowski and Collins have voted against her in that case though? sweetloukillbot Feb 2017 #67
The problem with your contention is there are no GOP-lite elected officials mythology Feb 2017 #24
"Lean left" BainsBane Feb 2017 #47
Compromise *is* essential, but it's damn hard to do when the other side thinks compromise is evil. YoungDemCA Feb 2017 #70
When circling the wagons, it's best to point the rifles outward. ehrnst Feb 2017 #17
Some people tend to think people believe as they do...but it is rarely true. Demsrule86 Feb 2017 #18
This OP presumes Keith Ellison will only pick far left liberals for every seat. Dustlawyer Feb 2017 #25
The chair doesn't pick candidates BainsBane Feb 2017 #27
+1000. (nt) ehrnst Feb 2017 #28
I think we need to support whoever wins the primaries. Let the people in each state decide. jalan48 Feb 2017 #26
Yep. K & R JHan Feb 2017 #31
Gaining control of local, state and federal offices requires a big tent. democrank Feb 2017 #32
How do we demand action BainsBane Feb 2017 #36
I may have not been clear enough, BainsBane. democrank Feb 2017 #73
We need to especially vote in the elections preceeding the census BumRushDaShow Feb 2017 #39
Thank you for this excellent post and reminder. I am amazed at the short-sightedness and VANITY... NurseJackie Feb 2017 #33
Really? We're going to talk about people not winning elections now? Kentonio Feb 2017 #66
Sure. Why not? It's good to avoid repeating dumb and vain mistakes. Don't you agree? NurseJackie Feb 2017 #71
Yup, I most certainly do. Kentonio Feb 2017 #72
So here is one of my questions. pangaia Feb 2017 #40
Only if those issues aren't connected to Democrats BainsBane Feb 2017 #48
Thanks.. good points.... pangaia Feb 2017 #75
Manchin's a Democrat? rpannier Feb 2017 #41
He's registered as a Democrat and runs as a Democrat BainsBane Feb 2017 #46
You mean, what he said on TV rpannier Feb 2017 #85
He is a Democrat... Demsrule86 Feb 2017 #65
And please tell me where I said I wanted purity rpannier Feb 2017 #84
Wow.... deja vu all over again! HenryWallace Feb 2017 #42
What's your evidence to support that? BainsBane Feb 2017 #45
OK... HenryWallace Feb 2017 #60
That isn't evidence BainsBane Feb 2017 #83
Sadly, it is evidence; it is just not what you want to hear. HenryWallace Feb 2017 #87
What do you mean by this? leftstreet Feb 2017 #69
It means just that BainsBane Feb 2017 #82
Absolutely. All congressional elections are local elections. MineralMan Feb 2017 #43
No Deplorables. AngryAmish Feb 2017 #49
You'd think this would be obvious, right? DanTex Feb 2017 #50
Some of the comments BainsBane Feb 2017 #51
Focus on getting rid of the Permanent Apportionment Act of 1929 BarackTheVote Feb 2017 #52
How do we do that with a GOP majority? BainsBane Feb 2017 #53
The Act is unconstitutional on its face BarackTheVote Feb 2017 #54
Thank you, Bains. brer cat Feb 2017 #55
No argument here... Wounded Bear Feb 2017 #56
Indeed, but there has to be a bare minimum for what it means to be a Democrat. rogue emissary Feb 2017 #58
I'm fine with that.. vi5 Feb 2017 #59
That's true kiranerys Feb 2017 #61
I never forget how lucky I am to live in Washington state ismnotwasm Feb 2017 #62
We need to turn red states blue if we want to win Gothmog Feb 2017 #63
It's a fair point, but.. Kentonio Feb 2017 #68
You prefer to remain in the minority? BainsBane Feb 2017 #79
You don't need to win 50 states to win the Presidency. Kentonio Feb 2017 #88
K&R mcar Feb 2017 #74
Totally agree. Literally our party's run in 2018 races is a fight for the survival of the country. bronxiteforever Feb 2017 #78
Careful there, or you'll be tarred as a "third way DLC humping centrist". Tarheel_Dem Feb 2017 #80

OKNancy

(41,832 posts)
1. I'd give anything to have Mary Landrieu as my Senator instead of Inhofe
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 07:15 AM
Feb 2017

Better to have someone vote with you 50-80% of the time instead of 0%.
And of course the obvious... numbers count in the Senate. Committee chairs are everything.

BainsBane

(53,031 posts)
2. Yet we still see people targeting Joe Manchin
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 07:17 AM
Feb 2017

Now, i would not be happy with Manchin as my rep, but I don't live in W Virginia. People need to think about what a 50 state strategy entails.

BainsBane

(53,031 posts)
6. speaking of Rand
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 07:27 AM
Feb 2017

His spine has dissolved with the election of Trump.

I take your point. Even though Manchin is more conservative than many of us would prefer, he's one seat closer to a majority, and that matters.

get the red out

(13,461 posts)
44. I noticed that about Rand too
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 11:10 AM
Feb 2017

Maybe he's jealous that Trump gets to be the number 1 crazy in Washington?

Warpy

(111,245 posts)
76. That's what Dr. Dean thought and to a point, he was right
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 04:12 PM
Feb 2017

but we also got "Democrats" like Max Baucus who held up the ACA because he was terrified some woman would use it to get an abortion, even though the Hyde amendment forbade any Federal dollars, even those going to subsidize health care for the poorest, should ever go for abortion. He was a fucking fool who almost killed the whole thing.

However, in general, I'd rather have Baucus than most of the Republican ideologues and clowns that are sitting in there now. The worst Democrat is always better than the best Republican.

Bad Democrats need to be primaried out when we can do it, so the Manchins and Landrieus need to listen to their constituents and to the rest of the party instead of only to corporate lobbyists.

However, a wide net is also going to get us a few good ones from places we never considered. Look at Senator Udall, from my own state. He replaced a conservative old fossil named Pete Domenici that people had voted in for decades out of sheer habit. Nobody saw that coming, a true liberal replacing a bedrock right winger.

So yes, I'm all for the 50 state strategy and accepting some dross along with the gold.

dsc

(52,155 posts)
81. Baucus had lots of problems but I don't think that was one of them
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 05:23 PM
Feb 2017

I might be wrong on that but I don't recall him being a huge anti abortion politician.

Warpy

(111,245 posts)
86. He wasn't ordinarily
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 06:23 PM
Feb 2017

He was more worried about the ACA's deleterious effect on insurance company profits and the job security of their lobbyists, being heavily funded by that industry, himself. However, he thought that adding the antiabortion language would get a few of the more reasonable Republicans to vote for the bill, so he insisted on it at the last minute and held up the vote until he got it.

The Republicans, of course, voted in a bloc against it.

get the red out

(13,461 posts)
3. Very true
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 07:22 AM
Feb 2017

No purity tests please, it alienates people, to ever get this country to go in a more progressive direction, we need to elect people who will fight against gerrymandering.

BumRushDaShow

(128,844 posts)
5. This is the reality
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 07:24 AM
Feb 2017

It will take time to mix out the "red" in these "red" states in order to get the best progressives/liberals elected. But in the meantime, in order to get the chairmanships of committees in either or both chambers of congress, we need enough Ds to get to the majority. But the irony is that in some "blue" states, like NJ & MD & MA, you have GOP governors (when we don't turn out to vote), so it behooves to take care of our turnout problem in general.

And yes, we have felt the pain of the couple votes these folks have made for the other side for certain policy decisions but overall, they allow us to control the legislative calendar, hearings, and votes.

BainsBane

(53,031 posts)
14. Yes, there are few safe blue states anymore
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 08:40 AM
Feb 2017

and turnout is key.

I think people got complacent with Obama. Trump is changing that.

BumRushDaShow

(128,844 posts)
30. Yup.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 09:46 AM
Feb 2017

Am waiting to hear him start ratcheting up some commercials (I am in Philly so we cover South Jersey's media market). And he can't wait and think he can coast in.

crazycatlady

(4,492 posts)
34. He's been touring the state
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 10:07 AM
Feb 2017

I went to a packed house town hall with him and Levi Sanders (Bernie's son) and was really impressed with him (aside from the fact he gave me a shoutout for my pussyhat).

Willie Pep

(841 posts)
7. A Blue Dog Democrat is still better than a Republican any day of the week.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 07:28 AM
Feb 2017

Even a politician like Joe Manchin votes with the Democrats most of the time. Another red state Democrat who I really like is Louisiana Governor John Bel Edwards. Edwards is conservative on some issues like guns and abortion but from what I understand he is still liberal on things like economics (he issued an executive order to expand Medicaid) and issued an LGBT anti-discrimination order, so he is not a total conservative on social issues either.

I am a pro-life Democrat myself so I fit the profile of a person who would support somebody like Edwards or Manchin without too many reservations, but I know that many liberals probably dislike their stances on certain issues. I can see wanting to support a more progressive candidate in blue states or districts. But in red states we need more candidates like John Bel Edwards because I don't think an across-the-board liberal would be as likely to win.

Demsrule86

(68,552 posts)
22. I have always objected to the term pro-life.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 09:08 AM
Feb 2017

It is anti-choice. No one likes abortion but it is a woman's right and very important for proper health care. I was left infertile by a 'Pro-life' doctor who insisted on waiting for 'proof' that I had miscarried in Georgia...bloodwork...I began hemorrhaging in my kitchen...terrifying my small children...I was rushed to the hospital and left to lay on a gurney in a pool of blood... unattended... while my doctor waited for blood work...never mind I had an ultrasound that clearly showed fetal death...never mind that I was in severe distress...luckily hubs got there in time...fired the doctor and a young intern/resident saved my life. I spent three weeks in the hospital and needed multiple transfusions...I almost died and left three small children behind and my dear husband. I was unable to have more children thanks to Dr. "pro-life...or Dr. Death as I prefer to call him...so don't talk to me about pro-life...because people who would deny women healthcare and who would allow a woman to die as my doctor nearly did are not pro-life.

Demsrule86

(68,552 posts)
64. Thank you.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 01:51 PM
Feb 2017

My experience caused me a great deal of anger of course...but then came determination...hell no...we will not go back to that sort of thing.

IronLionZion

(45,427 posts)
9. When we have a majority, liberals will be committee leaders
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 07:49 AM
Feb 2017

and they would decide which legislation and investigations to pursue. We need a Dem majority to be a check on the power of a dangerous president and vet his appointees.

yardwork

(61,588 posts)
13. Exactly. A lot of people don't understand this.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 08:16 AM
Feb 2017

The party with the majority in Congress controls the entire process. They chair and dominate all the powerful committees that decide which bills get considered and voted upon.

It's very worrisome how little many people understand about our political process, especially the legislative process that determines what laws are written and passed.



BumRushDaShow

(128,844 posts)
16. And moreso
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 08:45 AM
Feb 2017

far too many posting here on DU have no understanding of how congress works. A Democrat can pound the podium and yell in the mike and submit legislation, but as long as we don't control the committees, that legislation essentially gets tossed into a virtual committee circular file to die. I.e., it becomes a lot of sound and fury resulting in nothing.

Progressive dog

(6,900 posts)
10. K&R
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 08:00 AM
Feb 2017

Kirsten Gillibrand ran as a conservative leaning Democrat for Congress. She won in a district that had not elected a Republican in decades. Eleven years after that win, she is one of the more liberal Senators.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
20. Yes, she has been great
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 09:01 AM
Feb 2017

She was one of only a handful of Senators that did not vote to defund ACORN after the O'Keefe guy made his outrageously doctored video that everybody believed. That really impressed me.

It's also no coincidence that since ACORN was defunded in 2009, Democrats have tanked at the local & state level.

yuiyoshida

(41,831 posts)
11. I think we will have to do more than "start over" with the party
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 08:06 AM
Feb 2017

The thing is the Republicans have all the power, and will probably hold on to it for a very long time, doing what they always do.. put all the factors in their favor, which includes all the way they cheated to be where they are in the first place.

They own the Voting machines.. or the Corporations do. The Corporate elite are Republicans. They are not about to give up power soon. Democrats have to have votes to get into office. If the REPUBLICANS block them in every way, its not going to happen. Democracy as we know it will soon be dead by people who love and dream of being ruled by a dictator... The land of the Brave and the Free is dying.. slowly.

But Minorities are growing in numbers. Its going to be up to us to change things..some how.

 

nikibatts

(2,198 posts)
12. Open our big tent, get rid of as many GOPers as we can first, then deal with Blue dogs and others
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 08:12 AM
Feb 2017

once we are in power.

To say that we Dems did not try to appeal to the red state Dems is not true. Hillary did and was ignored not only by the media but by our own voters. They just didn't want to hear it from her after hearing so much about her (faux) ties to Goldman-Sachs her transcripts, her links to her own family Foundation, her being part of the "establishment", the "rigged system." We couldn't hear her for the screaming in our own ears about free college, universal health care, e-mails, and even at one point screaming about her being unqualified. She sanctioned the most progressive platform of any Dem since FDR. BUT..you know he history.

We cannot afford to make the same mistakes this time... in 2018 oe 2020. We cannot and should not over-promise and we need to tell people what they need to hear, not what they want to hear, but in a way that offers them hope and challenge instead of dread and fear.

Vinca

(50,261 posts)
15. The problem with the Democrats who are really GOP-lite is that Republicans do not consider
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 08:43 AM
Feb 2017

compromise an option. It's their way or the highway. We've been losing because we've been trying to entice the right. A big tent is fine, but we will get nowhere if we don't lean left instead of right.

BumRushDaShow

(128,844 posts)
19. In this case
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 08:51 AM
Feb 2017

the GOP purged their "moderates" during the teabagger wave. So the moderates on our side have fewer and fewer (almost none) to "compromise" with.

We need to focus on our states and take them back so we control the redistricting for the 2020 census. Redistricting is not a federal function, it's a state function once states are notified how many seats they will have. And how those lines are drawn happens at the state level (although it affects the federal House districts).

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
21. if Democrats had just won one more seat in the senate
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 09:04 AM
Feb 2017

If Toomey lost or Feingold had won, Betsy DeVos would have gone down in defeat, as Dems would have only needed 2 votes to defeat her and not 3.

BumRushDaShow

(128,844 posts)
23. We should have gotten Feingold and McGinty
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 09:09 AM
Feb 2017

especially McGinty given the other statewide offices here in PA that went to a D. We have our work cut out for us.

rpannier

(24,329 posts)
35. I've seen several stories quoting Republican Senators
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 10:09 AM
Feb 2017

who said if devos needed the votes Collins would have voted for her

seaglass

(8,171 posts)
37. I'm not sure Murkowski and Collins would have voted against her though. They knew the count
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 10:11 AM
Feb 2017

and voting against her was safe.

sweetloukillbot

(11,008 posts)
67. Would Merkowski and Collins have voted against her in that case though?
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 01:55 PM
Feb 2017

I got the impression they voted against because they knew it wouldn't make a difference in the end, while shoring up their "compromise" bonafides at home.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
24. The problem with your contention is there are no GOP-lite elected officials
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 09:14 AM
Feb 2017

Joe Manchin votes with the Democratic party about 75% of the time. The most liberal Republican Senator votes with the Republican party about 73% of the time. It's a really silly argument to make that Joe Manchin is Republican-lite with that sort of voting disparity.

BainsBane

(53,031 posts)
47. "Lean left"
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 11:23 AM
Feb 2017

Last edited Thu Feb 23, 2017, 06:02 PM - Edit history (1)

I can't even count the number of times I've seen people invoke left without any mention of what that means. The one thing I know for sure is that people use it to mean what they believe, even if those positions are antiegalitarian.

Compromise is essential to getting anything done if government. Refusing to compromise is fine for people who prefer the government not function or see politics as about affirming their own views rather than serving the people.

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
70. Compromise *is* essential, but it's damn hard to do when the other side thinks compromise is evil.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 02:00 PM
Feb 2017

nt

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
17. When circling the wagons, it's best to point the rifles outward.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 08:47 AM
Feb 2017

The term "true progressive" that omits Planned Parenthood, the Black Congressional Caucus and LGBTQ rights as "identity politics" has a pup tent.

Demsrule86

(68,552 posts)
18. Some people tend to think people believe as they do...but it is rarely true.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 08:51 AM
Feb 2017

We have Sherrod Brown in Ohio...I consider that a miracle in this state...hope we get to keep him...100 million of Koch money coming against him which is why we simply can't drive off our donors as the 'pure' want us to.

Dustlawyer

(10,495 posts)
25. This OP presumes Keith Ellison will only pick far left liberals for every seat.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 09:17 AM
Feb 2017

He has experience and is not naive. He knows that to win in certain areas you need center left candidates. If you want better turn out you need a Keith Ellison instead of an Establishment Democrat.

BainsBane

(53,031 posts)
27. The chair doesn't pick candidates
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 09:30 AM
Feb 2017

Last edited Thu Feb 23, 2017, 10:14 AM - Edit history (1)

They recruit them, but voters determine nominees. Last night, Ellison was careful to point out that the chair must remain neutral.

The OP not only doesn't assume what you claim, but it doesn't assume Ellison will be Chair. It's a caution to those who rail against certain Dems while also claiming they want a 50 state solution.

democrank

(11,092 posts)
32. Gaining control of local, state and federal offices requires a big tent.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 10:05 AM
Feb 2017

We can ignore all red state Trump voters, tell Bernie supporters to get lost, ignore Independents and Greens....but how will that help Democrats recover from our tremendous losses?

Over the last eight or so years, Republicans have gained complete control over about 32 states. Democrats have lost about 1,034 state and federal offices. Obviously these losses directly impact Democrats' ability to go forward with our priorities. If our support continues to come (mostly) from the two coasts and a couple of states in the middle, Republicans will maintain control of Washington and the national agenda. We can't let that happen which means the "Big Tent" idea must be realized. The Electoral College rules.

Not all Democrats are the same, so there is a chance the same goes for Republicans. I know some Trump voters who voted for President Obama....twice. They were not driven by racism in 2016. We should try to reach voters like that, voters who sat home on Election Day, and others. One thing we could try is reinvigorating Howard Dean's 50-state strategy and dive deep into these red states with a new Democratic message that focuses on old fashioned Democratic values of social and economic justice, education, the environment, human rights, to name a few. A West Virginian coal miner has some of the same concerns as a potato farmer in Maine, a logger in upstate New York, or a former factory worker in Michigan.

We should outlaw lip service and demand action in Chicago, Flint, with the Standing Rock Sioux, in Appalachia, and elsewhere. We should throw any hints of elitism out the window, roll up our sleeves, open the tent flaps and get to work. We can do this and come back stronger than ever.

BainsBane

(53,031 posts)
36. How do we demand action
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 10:10 AM
Feb 2017

From the GOP in Flint, Standing Rock, and Appalachia and have it be more than lip service?

What action are you talking about in Chicago?

democrank

(11,092 posts)
73. I may have not been clear enough, BainsBane.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 02:57 PM
Feb 2017

To answer your question, I don't expect we'd get results by demanding anything of the Republican leadership. Most of them are more interested in saving "no" to any Democratic proposal or solution than they are doing something good for their fellow Americans. Party before country is their way of operating.

We CAN demand certain principles, priorities and solutions from Democratic leaders....and from ourselves.

As to your Chicago question, I certainly don't have all the answers, but I'm sure there are folks out there who could help us come up with solutions. I'm sickened by what I see and read about violence in Chicago (and other places) but I've gained some hope after hearing from local leaders, church members, teachers, parents and others who have begged for economic development, mentors, after-school programs, stricter gun safety laws and more. It would be such a wonderful thing if large groups of Democratic leaders CONSISTENTLY showed up in some of our troubled cities and took a stand.

There is so, so much to do and we'll need a lot of help doing it.

BumRushDaShow

(128,844 posts)
39. We need to especially vote in the elections preceeding the census
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 10:21 AM
Feb 2017

at the STATE level. Whoever is in office in 2020 will control the drawing of both the federal House districts AND the state legislative districts.

Democrats CANNOT keep sitting out off-year elections.

There are elections THIS YEAR - 2017 in states nationwide. Every state has some sort of election EVERY YEAR. We ("editorial we&quot need to be there at EVERY ELECTION, no matter how "minor" - school boards, commissioners, city councils. Register of Wills, etc.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
33. Thank you for this excellent post and reminder. I am amazed at the short-sightedness and VANITY...
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 10:06 AM
Feb 2017

... of the purists who would prefer to LOSE a contest with their "ultra pure" candidate. In a predictable manner, they console themselves (and chastise others) with some nonsense about how they "went down swinging" and "didn't compromise" and "sent a message".

Yeah, they sent a message all right. The message was "we're stupid and we don't know how to win elections".

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
40. So here is one of my questions.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 10:22 AM
Feb 2017

I am NOT any kind of political expert, obviously, and do understand that different states are varying degrees of light blue, dark blue, pink, purple, dark red, light red, etc....and certainly am not in favor of saying any democratic candidate must subscribe to 100% of "our" list of issues.
But, the little I know tells me that when issues and what is actually going on are explained clearly and truthfully, a huge percentage of Americans, even in the redest, baddest areas, tend to agree with our positions.

Everyone will not agree with 'us' on abortion, types of gun control, transgender bathrooms,and other, now that I think about it, mostly "social" issues, (and I am not so sure all of "us" agree exactly on everything either), but, but.. it still seems to me that these 'red side' people WOULD in fact support Democratic candidates if they can just be.........
well......

.........EDUCATED!!!

Am I wrong? Could be......



BainsBane

(53,031 posts)
48. Only if those issues aren't connected to Democrats
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 11:28 AM
Feb 2017

Because the fact is people don't vote on issues and policy. That is as true among Democrats as nationally, as we saw in the opposition to Clinton from self-identified progressives. Many never bothered to even inform themselves on her policy positions. If we can't educate liberals and progressives, how do you propose to educate red state voters?

Social science data shows that voters make decisions based on cultural signifiers rather than issues. That's why we see so many Trump voters who disagree with him on ACA and other issues.

rpannier

(24,329 posts)
41. Manchin's a Democrat?
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 10:24 AM
Feb 2017

Saw an interview where he said he's really an independent
And that bullsh!# is the problem with him and some like him. It's not that he's more conservative, it's that some like him are really quick to throw the party overboard, publicly criticize the party and then distance themselves from it.
Name the last time you heard a Republican senator or house member claim he or she was really an independent. Murkowski could have certainly done that since she won in 2010 as an independent, but she didn't and they don't.
This cuts both ways. If Manchin wants to be a Democrat, then be a Democrat. Don't get on TV and say? "I'm really an independent."
If he can't do that, he doesn't deserve our support
If he can't bring himself to not publicly undermine Democratic policies, not undermine other members of the Party then there shouldn't be any handwringing when he loses because he said he wasn't really a Democrat anyway.
Susan Collins would never do that. Former Sen Mark Kirk-IL never publicly demeaned their party. It destroys message discipline and gives fodder to the Republicans.
Maybe that's where Manchin should start?

BainsBane

(53,031 posts)
46. He's registered as a Democrat and runs as a Democrat
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 11:15 AM
Feb 2017

Which can't be said for some. I can't speak to what you see on TV.

Do I take your response to mean you prefer fewer Democrats rather than working toward a Majority?

rpannier

(24,329 posts)
85. You mean, what he said on TV
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 06:19 PM
Feb 2017

or of Obama, the Obama energy and environment policies crushed West Virginia’s spirit.
or
“the Democrats are preventing the working class from working.”
or in 2012 2 weeks before the general election on whether he'd support Pres Obama
“I don’t feel compelled as I did in 2008,”

I have supported moderate and conservative Democrats in the past, so your question is moot.
My argument rested on his assertion to faux spews that he was independent, but to be fair claimed that his brand was Democratic, so he gets points for that part.
His public criticism of the party is something you don't get from Republicans toward their party, and one can make a very solid argument, smarter and more connected people on both the right and left and center have, that party discipline is undermined when prominent members publicly lash away at the party. It's part of the reason why Republicans began pushing people like Lowell Weicker out in the late 80's and early 90's, to get rid of the public critics.
I am okay with Nelson (D-FL) and Rep Tim Ryan (D-OH).
But when Manchin, the most prominent Democrat from West Virginia publicly attacks the party and praises Hair Douchengroper, while refusing to attend a meeting with outgoing Pres Obama and making sure the whole fricking world knows it, I could easily argue that he is doing damage to the party as well.

Demsrule86

(68,552 posts)
65. He is a Democrat...
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 01:54 PM
Feb 2017

and unless he caucuses with the GOP...then we support him...you won't get anyone better in WVA...and you get a GOP and that person votes against us 100%. You have to be realistic...you have a 50 state strategy, you will have more than a few like him...but you may also have the majority and get some important legislation passed...a minority no matter how pure will get nothing done.

rpannier

(24,329 posts)
84. And please tell me where I said I wanted purity
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 06:07 PM
Feb 2017

There is nowhere that I chided any of his being too conservative and
I stated
1. He said he was an independent.
2. He airs his grievances publicly and undercuts party leadership and the party when he does so. Example: Manchin says, it’s almost gotten to the point that “the Democrats are preventing the working class from working.” or he said, "Obama energy and environment policies crushed West Virginia’s spirit." as he was complementing Hair Douchebag
3. This behavior undercuts party discipline and messaging. It's part of the reason why Republicans do better at the state and national level (IMO) is because you know where they stand, they look organized and competent to the average voter.


 

HenryWallace

(332 posts)
42. Wow.... deja vu all over again!
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 10:27 AM
Feb 2017

Truman won in 1948 by ignoring your post! He ran against a "do-nothing" congress (sound familiar?) and helped every down-ticket democratic candidate.

Your not getting it; progressive issues are extremely popular! West Virginia & Louisiana wouldn't favor universal heath care?

BainsBane

(53,031 posts)
45. What's your evidence to support that?
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 11:12 AM
Feb 2017

Why did the Bernie backed candidates lose, in some cases underperforming Clinton, in 2016?

There is a tendency to assume everyone thinks as we do, but that isn't the case. Everyone doesn't have your life experiences or values.

Additionally, this is not 1948. The demise of JimCrow means the Democratic Party now has to think about more than white, middle-class men.

 

HenryWallace

(332 posts)
60. OK...
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 01:13 PM
Feb 2017

What's your evidence to support that?

David McCullough’s Truman… Easily verifiable elsewhere.
http://predictwise.com/politics/pollfish-public-opinion-polling


Why did the Bernie backed candidates lose, in some cases underperforming Clinton, in 2016?

Your best question; lets me put forward the thesis that their message was not fully supported by the national campaign or possible that non-establish Democrats got their shot in areas with the “longest odds”; I grant that this is not entirely adequate!

However, more to the point, your question is a deflection of the bigger question at hand; why have Democratic candidates’ underperformed down-ticket.


(T)his is not 1948.

Nor is it 1992!

The demise of JimCrow means the Democratic Party now has to think about more than white, middle-class men.

Here we are again, I don’t have the energy to even start to unpack this statement!

Let me just state my belief that a commitment of the Party to “stay-the-course” and just do a better job at messaging has not worked yet this millennium and dooms the Party to similar results.

BainsBane

(53,031 posts)
83. That isn't evidence
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 05:57 PM
Feb 2017

It's an assumption that your views are universal.

I didn't say the party didn't need to change. What I said is that a 50 state strategy is inconsistent with the impulse to purge everyone who doesn't meet progressive criteria. Additionally, that particular approach to politics is very much tied to the white male bourgeoisie. Other people besides you count, and their concerns matter. The assumption that the party only needs to do what a faction of progressives demand to win comes from an ideology rooted in race, class, and gender privilege, the kind of privilege that leaves people unable to see beyond themselves.

the thesis that their message was not fully supported by the national campaign or possible that non-establish Democrats got their shot in areas with the “longest odds”;


This again is based on the assumption that there should be one message based on what you and your like-minded friends want, with no conception of differences of local issues. It's also a cop out. The part about the longest odds is patently false. Feingold (whom I like very much) lost in Wisconsin and Teachout in New York state. Those aren't even close to the longest odds. To claim so is absurd.

You have no evidence. What you have are assumptions that come out of a movement determined largely by a certain class, race, and gender.

I also wonder how you all will define progressive when Bernie isn't around anymore, it's clear that issues matter far less than connections to him. We see that through the support for conservatives like Tulsi Gabbard, those who are anti-choice or object to the Iran nuclear deal. And as we know immigration and guns are not considered important to the "progressive" cause because of Bernie's own record on the issues and whom those issues impact. So we have an absence of anything approaching ideological consistency other than what is most important to the white, male bourgeoisie. Your reference to 1948 hardly dispels that impression.

It would be nice if people would think less in terms of wielding control over the party and nebulous labels like "progressive" and "left" and more in terms of problems and solutions, along with an understanding that the concerns of others in the country matter as well. That message has been communicated regularly for over a year now, and the answer has consistently been: your concerns are a distraction, divisive. What really matters is what we want. It didn't work among Democrats, and it isn't going to work in red states. I would suggest you could try to encourage some candidates that fit your criteria to run to test the idea, but you've already decided the failures are never the candidates' but always someone else. That leaves us in the realml of faith, and no amount of empirical evidence will influence it in anyway.
 

HenryWallace

(332 posts)
87. Sadly, it is evidence; it is just not what you want to hear.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 08:31 PM
Feb 2017

If the Party cannot muster a full-throated support for economic and social policies that materially benefit the great majority of Americans, well maybe it’s time it faded into history! And no, “hang in there because we are better than the alternative” is not articulating a clear vision of a better future.

Become the Party of rational centrists; well, the Whig party disappeared in eight years when it couldn’t adapt.

You desperately want to bring Bernie Sanders in this; but he is irrelevant now! You have yet to deal with the reality of a massive Party implosion: It has been over 90 plus years since fewer Democrats have held elected office (you know, since right before the last Progressive Era https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Era)


PS: Since you clearly distain the wisdom of those who have gone before us, I will leave with another Truman quote:

"Given the choice between a Republican and someone who acts like a Republican, people will vote for the real Republican all the time..." (Written in a personal letter to LBJ: Yet another southern Progressive)

leftstreet

(36,106 posts)
69. What do you mean by this?
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 01:58 PM
Feb 2017
The demise of JimCrow means the Democratic Party now has to think about more than white, middle-class men.


BainsBane

(53,031 posts)
82. It means just that
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 05:29 PM
Feb 2017

In 1948, much of the nation was prohibited from voting due to race. That isn't the case anymore.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
43. Absolutely. All congressional elections are local elections.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 10:27 AM
Feb 2017

What will fly in some districts won't in others. In a conservative district or state, Democrats from other areas need to understand that electing someone who votes with the Democratic caucus most of the time is better than a Republican who never does.

We need Democratic majorities in both houses of Congress. Period. If a few Democrats who aren't the most progressive people are elected in some districts or states, there it is. They will vote with the caucus in most cases. No Republican from those states will every vote with the Democratic caucus.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
50. You'd think this would be obvious, right?
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 11:32 AM
Feb 2017

Do the far-lefties that want to primary Joe Manchin really think we can elect a Warren or Sanders in West Virginia?

BarackTheVote

(938 posts)
52. Focus on getting rid of the Permanent Apportionment Act of 1929
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 11:34 AM
Feb 2017

Won't even need to worry about Red states if you double or triple the number of representatives from states like California and New York. Hell, you might even be able to turn a state like Texas blue because reapportionment would require more districts to be drawn in populous areas like Houston and San Antonio. We need REPRESENTATION.

BainsBane

(53,031 posts)
53. How do we do that with a GOP majority?
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 11:36 AM
Feb 2017

I agree with you as a matter of principle. I just don't see how it can happen with the current congress.

BarackTheVote

(938 posts)
54. The Act is unconstitutional on its face
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 11:52 AM
Feb 2017

It needs to be challenged in court on the regular. Thus far, judges have refused to make a ruling on it because of "lack of standing." But when 45* can threaten a state like California with *sanctions* because it has way too few representatives in congress to make any kind of effective retaliation, how can you argue that this does not amount to taxation without representation? How can one argue that the EC is representative of the will of the people when one vote in California is worth less than half of that same one vote in Montana? This one Act completely broke our democracy and subverted every pretense of democratic principal laid out in the Constitution.

Smaller States will always have disproportionate representation because every State gets two senators. But every state should have a number of Representatives that reflects the size of its population. That's how it was intended to be.

brer cat

(24,559 posts)
55. Thank you, Bains.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 12:05 PM
Feb 2017

People seem to forget that lines have beginnings, middles, and endings. Those of us who live in predominately red areas know that the only way to elect a dem at this time is to put forth a conservative, but it doesn't necessarily mean we are stuck there forever. Once we have the attention of people who normally vote consistently republican, we can start moving the marker to the left. We must think long-term in these situations not just the next election cycle. If gaining control of Congress means electing some conservative democrats, sing "hallelujah" that we now have the majority leaders, committee chairs, and control of the agenda.

Wounded Bear

(58,647 posts)
56. No argument here...
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 12:06 PM
Feb 2017

but I have no problem with primarying a few Dems now and then to giver their constituents some real choices.

rogue emissary

(3,148 posts)
58. Indeed, but there has to be a bare minimum for what it means to be a Democrat.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 01:01 PM
Feb 2017

The 50 state plus strategy is crucial to getting Democrats back into the majority. If someone like Manchin is primaried, it doesn't mean someone that primaried him would be some true blue progressive. They can run as a moderate or even conservative Democrat and that person would be better than Manchin. He voted for a racist over John Lewis a party elder and the Senate leadership objection. Frankly, Manchin opened himself up to a primary challenge by voting for all of Donny nominees.

 

vi5

(13,305 posts)
59. I'm fine with that..
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 01:08 PM
Feb 2017

...as long as they don't get to chair any committees or have any positions of power, that allow them an inordinate amount of say or control of what gets through with regard to legislation along the lines of what the conservadems like Lincoln, Baucus and their ilk did with the ACA.

The problem is that too often these folks are essentially given veto power over everything the party does or wants to do.

kiranerys

(54 posts)
61. That's true
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 01:19 PM
Feb 2017

I think we need to consider which things, in particular, we're willing to be flexible about. Which fights are crucial, and which ones can wait or be fought at the state level.

ismnotwasm

(41,976 posts)
62. I never forget how lucky I am to live in Washington state
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 01:30 PM
Feb 2017

My Senators are not above criticism either, but they both are solid Democrats and Patty Murray is a powerful voice. Yet she was on the list of Senators that voted against the budget resolution that allowed Canadian drugs in a cheaper prices. Cory Booker took most of the criticism--the implications being the Democratic Senators who voted against the bill are in the pockets of "Big Pharma"--a appellation that had outlived its usefulness in certain discussions.

Because of this one vote--there were many ready to toss these Democrats under that big ass bus. Not only is this a short-sighted, it's self-destructive.



Gothmog

(145,129 posts)
63. We need to turn red states blue if we want to win
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 01:35 PM
Feb 2017

There are a large number of good Democrats in Texas who are working hard to turn Texas blue. The party needs to have Texas turn blue even if we are as progressive as some may like.

 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
68. It's a fair point, but..
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 01:56 PM
Feb 2017

Perhaps a 50 state strategy just isn't the way forward. If it means selling out that many progressive beliefs, then what would we even be winning by swinging that far right?

bronxiteforever

(9,287 posts)
78. Totally agree. Literally our party's run in 2018 races is a fight for the survival of the country.
Thu Feb 23, 2017, 04:23 PM
Feb 2017

we can't afford to lose again because no institution will be left standing if there is no check until 2020.



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