Even if Trump is jailed for treason and Pence exposed for complicity

[Tom Rinaldo]

Climate control will be gutted, millions will lose health care, Medicaid will loose guaranteed federal fiscal support, the ultra rich will be given hundreds of billions in "tax relief" forcing essential services to forfeit funding, diplomacy will be jettisoned to pay for mega weapons, public education will be starved, consumer protections will end and so much more, if the Republican budget plans become law. And it will take more than just protests to reverse those moves once made with Republicans still in control of the White House and both Houses of Congress, regardless of what happens to Trump.

I am as riveted, alarmed and angered as anyone else is while watching the high crimes and misdemeanors of Trump's White House and our Democracy's attempt to fight them off. But I worry when I find myself transfixed by that to the inadvertent exclusion of sustained nuts and bolts organizing among those who will most be hurt by the drastic cuts in services, benefits, and protections that loom before us. It is hard to focus on anything except the unique threat that Trump embodies. I think Republicans in Congress and their handlers in the oligarchy are counting on that.

[heaven05]

1. the republiKKKans

are the most dangerous foe ever faced by DECENT americans of every race, creed, religion. Prezidents Bannon, miller, trump and advisors duke, jones, pence, sessions, ryan, oconnell and 66million boy-potus voters are our enemy. Yes, ENEMY!!!!!!!!!!! Civil War II is in motion and sides have been declared. At the bottom of this whole fiasco? RACISM and virulent hate of 'others' by white americans and their UNCLE TOM and other supporters from every subgroup and minority... I hate them just like they hate me.

[nycbos]

2. My theory is Pence has been deliberately kept in the dark about the Russian...

... connections so he can have plausible deniability.

[Tom Rinaldo]

3. Pence is a late addition to Trump world

He was never in Trump's inner circle before Trump secured the Republican nomination. Trump's ties with Russia predate Pence by years if not decades. I agree that he has been kept in the dark about details to the extent possible. But the man willingly climbed into bed with team Trump, so he too is exposed.

[WhiteTara]

15. Don't forget that Manafort brought Pence in

to the party. He is in this up to his neck.

[Panich52]

4. Repub pols backed Trump because thay wanted Pence

They knew as well as we sane anti-Trumpers that the lying narcissist would get into deep trouble. Pence is a true, hardline conservative without the blatant psychological problems. With the exception of the "wall," Pence would continue the decimation of civil rights, environment, economic parity, etc—fears in original OP—with full backing of Repub leaders.

Was post that asked when you were most ashamed of our country. I'll be 65 this year, and my answer was 11/9/16.

[nycbos]

5. Agree 100%

[Tom Rinaldo]

7. The reason why we can't lose focus on the policies

Trump will be propped up and defended as long as possible to front the oligarchy agenda, until the evidence against him is overwhelming and/or he loses too much support in the Republican base, and then Republicans will move on to Plan P. Trump is ultimately disposable when he no longer is useful. In a worse case scenario they can even afford to lose Pence, putting Ryan in the White House instead.

The issues raised by Donald Trump personally being President are huge, but so is the distraction factor of his malignant circus dominating the news. If our protests get channeled primarily into opposition to Trump the person and/or his surrogates in power, that is ultimately a tactical win for the Republican agenda, which keeps proceeding forward every day underneath the waves.

[Panich52]

38. So true

[Norbert9]

27. I'm only 29, but the first words out of my mouth on 11/9/16

"I've never been so embarrassed to be an American"

[Panich52]

39. That was my 1st tweet that day

[JTFrog]

18. Doubtful.

I'm pretty sure he is up to speed on all things Russia and probably has been from the get go. Everyone Trump has picked is tied to Russia. Why would we assume any different of the Perfidy of Pence?

[nycbos]

21. Pretending to be ignorant allows someone to get away with a lot.

[Tatiana]

40. Not completely in the dark. And he's no fool.

This is why we need to regain control of the House in 2018 and impeach him first.

[truebluegreen]

6. Can we please stop with the "treason" talk?

it is a very narrowly-defined crime that does not fit what Trump and his evil spawn and minions have done. As has been pointed out by others, "treason" is providing aid and comfort to the enemy. An enemy is someone we are at war with. We are not at war with Russia.

Nail him for things he has actually done. I think it is most likely he has tried to use his position for profit, and made a deal with Putin to enrich himself. Oil revenues maybe? It fits with everything he has done in his entire life, it proves that he doesn't actually give a shit about anyone but himself, it demonstrates how stupid and immoral he is for all to see.

We don't just want to get rid of him, we want to discredit him and his entire effing party of sycophants and thieves. Do that by charging him with things that will stick.

[Tom Rinaldo]

9. I usually side with precision, so I can agree

In this case Trump seems to be allowing his personal needs to guide him in letting his decisions as President serve the interests of a foreign power in some instances, rather than the interests of the American people. That may not qualify as treason, but if true it could still be grounds for impeachment which has a different legal threshold to clear than that needed for treason

[truebluegreen]

12. That is true.

But I don't think we should rely on the "grounds for impeachment" thing either. That is whatever Congress decides it is, and this Congress isn't going there. Even if they do an investigation I doubt if it will be a real one. In my view an independent prosecutor is our only hope of actually jailing this mofo and he will need a boatload of help from the media and the IC to do it (the drip drip drip of information).

I think it would be the best way to deal with Trump anyway (and the most painful--I confess to bloodthirstiness on the subject). Death by a thousand cuts, dragged out over the next year and a half or so, while his administration and party flails and fails in full fascinated / appalled view of the public.

That will get us to the mid-terms and maybe even provide an exit ramp from this fugging mess.

That's the best we can hope for imo.

[ElementaryPenguin]

16. Ok, ESPIONAGE - for which the Rosenbergs were executed.

You will recall that we were not in a declared war with the Soviet Union.

[truebluegreen]

17. You will recall--since it was a minute ago--

that I said to nail him for something he has done.

[LanternWaste]

19. That's not accurate.

"An enemy is someone we are at war with..."

That's not accurate. An enemy is any country, government, group, or person that has been engaged in hostilities, whether or not lawfully authorized, with the United States. Additionally, all wars are hostilities, yet not all hostilities are wars (by the very narrowly defined legal definition relevant to the context, yes?).

If we are determined to demand accuracy from others, we would do well to heed that ourselves as a much higher priority.

[truebluegreen]

24. If we were speaking English, no doubt you would be correct.

But we are not speaking English, we are speaking legalese. The meaning of the word "treason" is very specific in legal terms, as I said above. The difference is similar to the way the term "theory" is used in science, as opposed to common parlance. In science, a theory is "a coherent group of propositions formulated to explain a group of facts or phenomena in the natural world and repeatedly confirmed through experiment or observation."; in normal conversation it means "an idea."

We have trade with Russia, our citizens visit Russia, we have diplomatic relations with Russia. In legal terms, they are not an "enemy" (and fwiw that doesn't change based on a Gallup poll asking what people think).

[JTFrog]

20. No.

Because it is what it is.

Some Democrats and Republicans are both starting to call the Russian hacking an act of war.

So maybe we could stop telling people to stop talking about "treason" when that's exactly what it was.

[truebluegreen]

25. I don't care if they call it a ham sandwich.

I repeat,"treason" is a very narrowly and strictly-defined term IN THE LAW. It doesn't matter a bit what people think it is, be they Republicans, Democrats, Independents or purple.

It also doesn't matter a bit if people think the Russian hacking is "an act of war" until and unless Congress declares it to be so. Until then we have diplomatic relations with Russia, we have trade, our citizens go there, etc. I.e. not an "enemy."

[rzemanfl]

28. Enemy definition-

"a hostile nation or its armed forces or citizens, especially in time of war: (emphasis mine)

[truebluegreen]

30. Black's Legal Dictionary:

"What is ENEMY?
in public law, signifies either the nation which is at war with another, or a citizen or subject of such nation."
http://thelawdictionary.org/enemy/.

We have diplomatic relations with Russia, we trade with Russia, our citizens visit Russia, ergo Russia is not our enemy.

Adversary? Sure. Do we like or trust them? No. Do they like or trust us? No. "Enemy"? No.

[rzemanfl]

32. I've been trumped (in the card playing sense). n/t

[truebluegreen]

34. ...

[Hortensis]

33. We know what traitors are and we know exactly

what we mean when we accuse people of treason. The common meaning of the word treason is just as real as the legal meaning.

If the federal government prosecutes treason under laws that use other terms, fine. As long as treason is prosecuted.

Merriam-Webster: "a person who betrays his or her country : a person who commits treason."

Now, enough of the patronizing dictacticism? No one needed this lesson.

[truebluegreen]

35. Fine. Sell it in a court of law.

I'm only interested in real charges that will stick.

[Nitram]

8. You may be right, but the 2018 elections will change the balance powerfully, and

Democratic control of both houses of congress can put things back together. It is more than likely that enough Republicans in congress will jump the sinking ship and vote with Democrats to block big changes well before that.

[Tom Rinaldo]

10. I agree that is our game plan

But in seeking to replace dozens of Republican incumbents we need to organize within their constituencies around those issues where they side against the interests of those constituents. Otherwise I have no doubt that many will pose as true defenders of the Republic against a despotic President, after the worm has turned - and attempt to return to office on the basis of that "integrity".

[Cosmocat]

11. I doubt it

They won't jump ship at all prior to 2018 unless they see VERY big gains in the municipals this fall.

Odds are VERY long we get either chamber in 2018, if it were today it would not be close.

This country is that full on fucking stupid.

45 and his admin are going to have to continue to be what they are AND Rs are going to have do some pretty heinous shit in congress to get the sheep would up enough to hold them accountable.

[atreides1]

29. Maybe

But, before the 2018 elections, there will still be few if any of the promised jobs, the replacement to the ACA will not have materialized, and repeal will result in people actually dying from lack of health care access! The military build up will require a Republican Congress to bring back the draft, and Trump and his puppet Mattis will have us in a war against North Korea!

Stupid tends to fly in the face of survival and self preservation, when the shit becomes real, I think enough people will get smart, real fast!

[Cosmocat]

36. 2004

I don't mean to hammer you, you are on the right side.

But, you are giving both the Republicans and the people of this country a lot more credit than they have earned.

Bush lied us into Iraq and it was a flaming mess when he was up for reelection. We were running an honorable man who served and was injured in his service, while W had ducked actual service.

Rs, being the shameless scumbags they are painted Kerry as soft, Swift boated his service and told the country we had to reelect W because he kept us safe.

Country reelected the twit who froze up reading my pet goat while planes were slamming into the Pentagon and WTT.

I sure hope this country wtf up, but until proven otherwise, I will assume we will indulge whatever innane bullshit meme they pull out of their asses.

[Tom Rinaldo]

13. Even on a thread I wrote to warn about focusing only on Trump - I keep falling inro that

I've noticed that in my own replies. Will he or won't he be removed from office blah blah blah. I'm as guilty of that as anyone else. What I think I should focus on more is the Republican move to block grant Medicaid, and all of the implications of that. Sometimes I feel like Trump is a fire and I am a moth.

[flamingdem]

14. We need to delegitamate them to the point that they can't get legislation

passed.

A few Republicans are sane and for example may not vote for ACA repeal

[Tom Rinaldo]

23. We also need to alarm enough voters over what they will lose

if the Republicans get their way with the budget.

[Motley13]

22. Paul Ryan is 3rd in line, we are screwed no matter what

[Eliot Rosewater]

26. Yeah, they stole this election for a reason. They are going to take every penny we have.

[caroldansen]

31. The election was rigged. There should be a do over. Just because it was never done before doesnt

Mean it shouldn't be done now. It should be done. If we do the election over again Russia will find it fruitless to ever try hacking the election again. Also, if we just let it ride and do nothing, Russia will feel they won and are pulling the strings on the United States of America. Doesn't that just make them laugh with glee.

[MedusaX]

37. 1 war with multiple battle fronts to man...

There is no hidden magic resolution that will fix everything once found.....

Specific legislation related issues require Pressure to be continuously exerted in hopes of minimizing the damage done Daily ...
• Congress passing GOP ideology - resistance efforts at all levels
• 45's Executive orders/ Bannon's Directives - resistance efforts at all levels
• cabinet & other nominee hearings -
• Representative/Senator accountability for their actions - call them out
• Press Normalizing 45 actions - communicate directly with the news agencies
• demanding transparency & independent investigations - expressions of expectation at all levels & communication by all methods
• keeping press attention focused on Governments Actions ..

In order to have any hope of effectively pressuring legislators to act /not act , it is necessary to
• pro actively seek information about upcoming legislation
• communicate with Reps/Senators & even state Governors early & often & by many methods
• build alliances at the local level & on line to share information
• keep press focused on the legislation / departmental policy issues
• communicate with the various Departments to encourage transparency and positive acts of diplomacy, policy & accountability

The most important piece of Russia related legislation is S.94 ... it basically turns the 2014 Russia sanctions into law for 10 years ... this will effectively make it pointless for Vlad to continue to court 45...
when/if the bill gets into the spotlight it will be imperative to rally in support of it being passed... as 45 will likely Veto it ... forcing congress to have to hold another vote to overrule the veto... that will
Require a large percentage of yeas... so public pressure will need to be HUGE!


As other legislation is passed / orders signed, it will be necessary to support those who are directly affected
•direct assistance locally
• foundation/organization donations & volunteering

It is also necessary to evaluate upcoming legislation possibilities that will directly impact each of us personally &/or our family /friends...
hope for the best but have a plan to address the worst ...
be aware of exactly how you & yours will be affected by possible
healthcare or tax reforms, budget cuts, trade agreement alterations, currency issues, investment regulations, interest rate changes etc.
plan ahead / be prepared to make changes personally or help others know what to do

Encourage non-voters to get informed & help them register to vote
Research & Support candidates for the 2018 elections at all levels

Be passionate....
but not emotional when you communicate with others...
at any level...
even the most valid points can be overpowered by an emotional delivery...


Ideally, all of the above will help slow down the legislative process, lock in the sanctions and
maybe the GOP will begin to push back on the Bannon driven policies...
As perhaps the Dept. Secretaries will also begin to do....

In the meantime, a case may be made forcing 45's removal from office or requiring resignation....
or it may not..