It Looks Like Our Government Is Crumbling before Our Eyes

[MineralMan]

Is that what some "progressives" wanted to happen? Based on posts here and on other political forums, I think so. I remember reading many posts and replies saying exactly that, both in 2016 and in previous elections. Some people apparently believe that it would be better for the government to fail completely, so it could be rebuilt anew with a more progressive model.

Well, we may be getting our chance to see how that works out. Led by Donald Trump and supported by Republicans in Congress, we appear to be dismantling our federal government, step-by-step. Will that lead to a rebuilding, led by those "progressives?" I don't think so. I don't think so at all.

Instead, it's more likely to well lead us into an abyss of inaction and terrible actions by the government we allowed to be elected. We're seeing a healthcare system that sort of worked being dismantled and replaced with something that isn't completely clear yet, except that it's going to reverse whatever progress was made by the ACA. Yes, single-payer would have been better, but we're going to end up with a you-payer healthcare plan.

What else? Well, Trump and the Republican Congress are about to put an end to a bunch of government departments and agencies that have long done the job of regulating and supporting programs that benefit a broad range of people. Education, Food and Drugs, Environmental, Science, Labor, and Arts and Humanities agencies are being essentially defunded and unstaffed. Rebuilding those will be very difficult, once they've been destroyed.

Trump and the Republican Congress also appear to be looting and burning even the State Department. Nobody is being appointed to important positions in that Department, leaving us with an impotent and non-functional diplomatic corps. Even the DOJ is being dismantled, with all US Attorney positions currently empty. Trump does not appear to be in a hurry to fill any open posts, and the ones he fills are getting Trump sycophants appointed to them.

So, we may be watching an abrupt destruction of our system of government, just as some apparently wanted. So far, though, I've seen no plan for rebuilding from the very people who wanted that destruction. Nothing. Some pipe dreams are being mentioned, and methods that are not practical are being suggested. How is this rebuilding supposed to happen? I'm hearing crickets.

Still, it's obvious that we must do something, and do it pretty damn quickly. The only thing I can think of is to start now to rebuild our Democratic Party and take back the Senate in 2018. Then, we must take back the White House and House of Representatives in 2020. That's possible, if we work our asses off and work together to achieve the goals we actually do have in common. If we don't, there will be no rebuilding of this nation at all. It will have ceased to function in any beneficial way.

Let's get started, shall we?

[Cary]

1. I am getting attacked here for calling treason treason

[MineralMan]

2. You are? That could be because Treason is a very

specific crime, defined clearly in the Constitution. Right now, it would be very difficult for anyone to be charged for that crime.

Maybe looking closely at the terminology you are using would help. Trump will not be charged with Treason. Read the definition of Treason from the Constitution. It's very, very specific.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

[Squinch]

6. But I agree with those who say that cyber war is war. Perhaps we can call it

"Cyber Treason"

[MineralMan]

8. Maybe we should just call it "High Crimes and Misdemeanors"

That would be sufficient, I think. If we accuse of the wrong crime or attempt to redefine what is clearly defined, we will lose.

[Squinch]

11. True.

[Cary]

14. I don't agree with conflating criminal prosecution with political speech

Those are 2 different standards in 2 very different contexts with 2 extremes of burdens of proof.

[Cary]

12. Except I'm not prosecuting any crime and this isn't a court

You're applying constitutional law and criminal standards to political speech.

I see sufficient evidence, including Trump's own call to Russian spies to hack Democrats, to invoke the term "treason" for my purposes.

But you were able to state your disagreement without attacking me personally. That is acceptable. Attacking me personally is not acceptable.

[MineralMan]

16. I would not attack you, personally.

Political speech, I think, needs to be practical and directly apply to reality. That's why I object to terms being misused in attacks on politicians. Accusations of treason, for example, are easily dismissed, due to the actual definition of the term.

That's why I would never use that word in relation to our current office-holders. There are many other words that can be used with more accuracy.

[Cary]

18. Crumbling our government is treason.

And nowhere am I constrained in regards during that conclusion by the Constitution or by statute.

[uponit7771]

28. +1, Bastard Bannon said publicly they wanted to dismantle the admin state... wtf else does anyone

... need ?!?!

[Cary]

30. Yes and said he is a Leninist

[uponit7771]

27. MM, Benedict Donald said hack her emails IS "giving them Aid and Comfort" What else is needed?!

The state and local electoral boards WERE a part of the national voting infrastructure IIRC ... this is no doubt an act of war.

Even if they weren't, BECAUSE of Russia and Benedict Donald's actions we did NOT have a free and fair election.

We're not sending 3 million to their deaths, we're just not normalizing Benedict Donald's actions with marginal positions that don't change the overall base of the bottom line position which is; Benedict Donald is a traitor ....

How much to send him to jail... arguable

That he is a traitor ... no arguable.

[randr]

42. I think Putin got a lot of aid and comfort knowing Twitler won.

[Stonepounder]

49. I think it IS Treason.

Trump and his goon squad (including many GOP in Congress) ARE levying War against us, but that is a bit of a stretch. However, Trump IS giving 'aid and comfort' to Russia in general and Putin in particular.

[FreepFryer]

23. Whether or not its the eventual charge, its the essential charge. You have my full support! (n/t)

[Cary]

31. Nice way to put it.

[uponit7771]

24. +1

[Orrex]

51. If we're talking about the same thread, you weren't attacked

And it wasn't for calling treason treason.

[Cary]

54. Please stop stalking me.

[Orrex]

56. It's hardly stalking, but since you asked so nicely.

Sure.

[Squinch]

3. I'll add, though, to the list of things that are being destroyed, our ability to be Democratic.

Republicans are ramping up their gerrymandering efforts, calling for a constitutional convention, taking extreme and unprecedented steps to ensure that their minority can keep power in the future. And they will be able to stack the Supreme Court to support all their moves.

So this collapse that our "friends" were wishing for may not be reversible. It may be generations before we can restore Democracy, if it is even possible then.

[still_one]

4. I agree with you MM, however, 2018 for the Senate will be very difficult. We stand a better chance

in the house, but it is still an uphill battle.

As to rebuilding the Democratic party, the only way that will happen is starting at the state and local levels first

[MineralMan]

9. Yes. At the state and local levels.

Right down to the individual precincts. We all need to get active in our local Democratic organizations. That's where it starts. We don't do that, though. I think we'd better start.

[still_one]

15. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[NurseJackie]

5. Yes, that's exactly what she wanted. FUCK SUSAN SARANDON!!

[Demsrule86]

38. double fuck that woman and Russian puppet Stein as well...

[dchill]

7. Crumbling? Not so much...

It's being Jenga-ed.

[blue cat]

10. Does it matter what someone thinks?

Magical thinking doesn't work BTW.
Things have changed because of people's actions.

[MineralMan]

13. Thought generally precedes action.

So, yes, it matters what someone thinks. It matters very much.

[ismnotwasm]

17. I agree

Last edited Sun Mar 12, 2017, 01:22 PM - Edit history (1)

I distinctly recall the "everything is sold to the oligarchs" type people who seemed to want to pull our entire system down. Worse, until recently, They were those who seemed to think we would get "single payer" out of the Trump disaster. I've always thought there was a distinct lack understanding on how the workings of political change actually…work.

Saying "I told you so" is cold comfort to me. Getting involved Feels good.

[MineralMan]

21. I appreciate that.

I'm trying to find practical solutions for the dilemma we are facing. I know of no other way to fix things. The solution is relatively simple to describe, but so difficult to achieve. I hope we can get there. I think we must get there.

[Hekate]

19. Kudos for a very temperate explication of the situation

[MineralMan]

20. Thank you so much. This is one in what I hope will be a long

series of posts calling for actual action on the part of all of us to take the practical steps needed to reverse what has happened. Yes, we're angry. Yes, we're depressed about what has occurred. But, there are ways to correct it. They're not easy to accomplish, but are more than worth the effort.

Now that Democrats are well and truly out of power, the only answer is to do what is necessary to regain that power. It's going to require unity, hard work, and even some compromises within the motley group we call progressives.

[Susan Calvin]

45. I appreciate hearing your POV. It makes sense to me.

(And your other posts as well.)

[workinclasszero]

22. Semantics really but not crumbling in my opinion. More like....

Its being systematically destroyed by the rich and powerful for their benefit.

[MineralMan]

26. Crumbling because they're pulling bricks out,

one-by-one, until the entire structure collapses. That's why I chose that word.

[Susan Calvin]

46. Yes, and it's scaring the out of me. nt

€¥£¢. DU took the symbols out of the title.

[FreepFryer]

25. You don't know what you got till it's gone. We'll recapture, and rebuild... painfully. (n/t)

[uponit7771]

29. +1, ... and the people who proffered such are people who thought they wouldn't be as affected by...

... watching someone else's house burn down for the sake of saying they're right.

[KPN]

32. I agree -- LETS GET STARTED!!!

How about we start by terminating the blame game and ridicule? Holy Moly!

[MineralMan]

33. Yes! Thank you.

[KPN]

34. It's the ONLY OPTION we have.

[MineralMan]

35. So it seems to me, as well.

[KewlKat]

36. 2018 Senate Seats - we have our work cut out for us and not a minute to waste!

Democrats up for reelection in 2018:

California: Dianne Feinstein (Won by 63% in 2012) (Intent for 2018 unknown) Current age: 83
Connecticut: Chris Murphy (Won by 55% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 43
Delaware: Tom Carper (Won by 66% in 2012) (Intent for 2018 unknown) Current age: 70
Florida: Bill Nelson (Won by 55% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 74
Hawaii: Mazie Hirono (Won by 63% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 69
Indiana: Joe Donnelly (Won by 50% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 61
Maryland: Ben Cardin (Won by 56% in 2012) (Intent for 2018 unknown) Current age: 73
Massachusetts: Elizabeth Warren (Won by 54% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 67
Michigan: Debbie Stabenow (Won by 59% in 2012) (Intent for 2018 unknown) Current age: 66
Minnesota: Amy Klobuchar (Won by 65% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 56
Missouri: Claire McCaskill (Won by 55% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 63
Montana: Jon Tester (Won by 49% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 60
New Jersey: Bob Menendez (Won by 59% in 2012) (Intent for 2018 unknown) Current age: 63
New Mexico: Martin Heinrich (Won by 51% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 45
New York: Kirsten Gillibrand (Won by 72% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 50
North Dakota: Heidi Heitkamp (Won by 50% in 2012) (Intent for 2018 unknown) Current age: 61
Ohio: Sherrod Brown (Won by 51% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 64
Pennsylvania: Bob Casey Jr. (Won by 54% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 56
Rhode Island: Sheldon Whitehouse (Won by 64% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 61
Virginia: Tom Kaine (Won by 53% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 58
Washington: Maria Cantwell (Won by 61% in 2012) (Intent for 2018 unknown) Current age: 58
West Virginia: Joe Manchin (Won by 61% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 69
Wisconsin: Tammy Baldwin (Won by 51% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 54


Independents up for reelection in 2018:

Maine: Angus King (Won by 53% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 72
Vermont: Bernie Sanders (Won by 71% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 75


Republicans up for reelection in 2018:

Alabama: Luther Strange (Intent for 2018 unknown) Current age: 63
Arizona: Jeff Flake (Won by 49% in 2012) (Intent for 2018 unknown) Current age: 54
Mississippi: Roger Wicker (Won by 57% in 2012) (Intent for 2018 unknown) Current age: 65
Nebraska: Deb Fischer (Won by 56% in 2012) (Intent for 2018 unknown) Current age: 65
Nevada: Dean Heller (Won by 46% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 56
Tennessee: Bob Corker (Won by 65% in 2012) (Intent for 2018 unknown) Current age: 64
Texas: Ted Cruz (Won by 57% in 2012) (Running in 2018) Current age: 46
Utah: Orrin Hatch (Won by 65% in 2012) (Intent for 2018 unknown) Current age: 82
Wyoming: John Barrasso (Won by 76% in 2012) (Intent for 2018 unknown) Current age: 64

[MineralMan]

37. Thank you for your list!

People in those states should begin working right now to find an ideal candidate for those offices, or to begin working for incumbents. I'm already in touch with Amy Klobuchar and have offered her my support. It's important to realize that working within your own state is far more effective than trying to influence an election in some other state.

[KewlKat]

39. Yes, we need to find candidates to run against those rethugs and

confirm again which are going to run and find replacements for those that are not. We need ground games, funds, hard, hard work to kick the rethugs out of power.

[Demsrule86]

40. Sherrod Brown is a good guy but it will be a tough election.

Trump won by double digits here in Ohio...and Koch ET Al will spend 100 million or more to elect Josh Mandel probably...there is also a rumor that Kasich might run for Brown's seat. People are surprised when I tell them how important this particular mid-term is...although if Democrats want policy and not just a president (that is good too) than get out every election and vote...this includes mid-terms.

[MineralMan]

41. We should treat every election as a tough election, and

not let up until we have won it. Thank you for your information on Ohio.

[SHRED]

43. "Based on posts here..."

I must have missed those here.
Was it wide spread?

Links to examples?

[elmac]

44. I hope it does

along with the country. That is what is needed to destroy the fascist party once and for all. It won't be easy, nor pretty, but that is tough love.

[Valhallakey]

47. I'm not sure

I believe that many people won't see dramatic changes in their lives by 2018 or even 2020, thus there will not be the large backlash that some here might expect. When countries turn facist people still go to work, go out to dinner, watch football on Sundays etc... I think it may take a near total collapse of our system for many on the moderate right/center to take action, vote differently etc... The new healcare dismantlement act is a good example of how they will keep the house/senate in 2018 and get re-elected for president in 2020. They simply push the dramatic effects off until those elections are passed. People will hear the left screaming about how terrible it is (and it is except maybe the cross state selling), yet will not see any differences until after the next presidential election. They will think the left was just crying wolf until too late. I would have thought the last Republican administration would have shown that, but the Democrats focused it on the man in office almost exclusively and not the Republican policies/party. One big step that would make a big difference for Democrats (although it may hurt initially) would be to stop taking corporate money or even PAC money. Just represent the people.

[world wide wally]

48. Democratic candidates have to resign themselves to saying exactly what they mean and NOT

pulling any punches.
We are never going to get 100% of the vote, so atop fucking trying.
If you think voters are stupid... Just say it!
You see what this prick got away with.
Do it with attitude!

[hibbing]

50. Hard to be hopeful

Decades of progress being systematically dismantled day after day after day.


Peace

[Kablooie]

52. At least the Dems might have the talking point, 'we'll bring back your medical insurance'

[littlemissmartypants]

53. Thank you for the post MineralMan.♡

"Stop fretting, start fighting." Tom Perez

[2naSalit]

55. Do you think we'll still be holding elections by then?

I am not so sure there will. I think that we, as a nation, will be too far down the river by then.

[Talk Is Cheap]

57. What posts on DU and others are you referring to? How do you know they are 'progressives'?

How many 'progressives' are you talking about?

Maybe the most important question is: what is your definition of progressive?

Independent of your answers, yes, we need to take back the House, Senate, and the presidency. But,
we need a Dem party that speaks for the 99%. We need Dems with a fucking backbone. And we
need to be active in every county in the USA.

[zentrum]

58. When in doubt...

....blame progressives.

Despite the fact that they are one of the more organized groups, confronting at town halls, calling Congress daily, receiving trainings from the ACLU, marching in the street.

The ones who need to step up to the plate are the MSM and the Dems in office across the land by doing things that force media coverage of the danger we're in. I know they are a minority party--but the majority of the country actually supports them. But they are hard to see or hear because they do things in the same old polite way.

They should hold daily press briefings about DT's corruption. About Bannon's past. About how close Pence and Flynn were on the transition team. They should be shouting.

They should be p[received as fighters--as a force-- and they are not.

[progressoid]

67. +1

[beachbum bob]

59. the wet dream of conservatives coming true...brought to america by those who couldn't

"settle" for the lesser of 2 evils but wanted REAL EVIL to take power so they can sit back and whine even more....2018 is our one aand ONLY chance to take back our country...if we don't....its over and not salvageable

[LiberalLovinLug]

60. Stop it with this fucking war on "progressives"!!!!

No, progressives, liberals, social democrats.....DO NOT WANT TO DESTROY GOVERNMENT!!
I am so sick of these divisive OPs every damn day in here. DU used to be a place where liberals felt safe.

In fact it is quite the opposite. We believe that government should be of the people, for the people. That is all. It has been drifting away from that for awhile now. And yes, some in the Democratic party leadership are responsible for this failed direction.

But people that want to help, or are happy to see, the country turn into a giant shitball are Steve Bannon's alt right, and on the left, extremist Leninist communists, who are the actual 'far left'. Sanders level 'progressive' issues, are of a breed that is the moderate norm in most democracies.

We want the same things you do. Really. In fact, going down the issues, MOST Democrats are progressive minded.
Reminds me of the feminist tag, where you can be for equal pay for equal value, reproductive rights, funding of PP, etc...but for gawds sake don't call me the F word.

But you and others go further than that even. Keeping in the allegory, to get the point through, its like not only would some disdain from calling themselves 'feminists', even though they believe in the exact same issues, but because there are a few radical 'man hating' extremists who self identify as feminist, that means feminism is now corrupted and all feminists are radical evil man hating bitches. To the point where the word feminism itself is something to run from.

Just as the term 'feminist' has been unilaterally redefined, so there is an attempt to redefine the term "progressive". The shocking thing is that it is coming from some in DU. No need for Glen Beck anymore, we have our very own group of frightened conformists who will do it for him. Seriously, have you ever thought what the end game is or what you will accomplish by doing that?

"The only thing I can think of is to start now to rebuild our Democratic Party"
And that is what we want. But believe me there are large forces in the party that want nothing to do with a "rebuild". And by dividing the party and demonizing the progressive base that is usually always right in hindsight, and are among the hardest workers during an election, with this kind of drivel, you only strengthen the established corporate owned leadership to stay the course, and do the same thing again, and expect different results.

[MineralMan]

62. Well, I'm glad to have given you an opportunity

to get that out of your system. You're a Canadian, though, right? Nothing wrong with that, but I'm talking about the country where I live and where I hold citizenship. I promise not to tell you how Canadian politics should be.

[LiberalLovinLug]

65. The reason I am a part of this board is that I think liberals should join together the world over

We have our own segment of deplorables that would probably awaken if given the right leader to rally around. Right now in our country there is a leadership contest for our Conservative party, and one or two of the candidates appeals to the same crowds. Looking around the world we see similar developments. But we also have many liberal minded folks who have much if not all the same values as Democrat voters in the US, as well as around the world. So I see it as not just a national issue. I see it as imperative that more liberal voices speak together to fight right wing populism buttressed by false stories in all parts of the world.

As well, the USA is in a unique position as your politics affect the whole world, economically, and socially. So as a citizen of the world, I feel I should have a voice. Put it down to whatever level of importance you wish.

Thirdly, we are each other's largest trading partners. We are joined at the hip for better or worse. So decisions made in your country affect us more than any other country, economically for sure.

The ideals of putting people over profit, that healthcare should be right, that people should get a livable wage, that women should be equal, that black lives matter, that LGBTQ rights should be respected, clean air and water, fighting climate change...I could go on. But all these issues are world citizen issues. This is no time for isolationist thinking IMO. Trump is just a symptom of a larger boogie man.

But thanks, I am glad I said what I said in that previous post. It had to be said. It would have been nice if you'd addressed some of my points but no worries. I've met many great Americans. They get generalized negatively by a lot of countries peoples, but that's too bad because they are for the most part decent loving people and creative and funny and fearless. As well as caring and empathetic. Cheers.

[nolabels]

61. Well everybody needs to blame somebody.

Please don't look in the mirror

[liquid diamond]

63. Their goal was to sit out the election and let trump win, so that the nation would

be so disappointed with his policies that they would elect a radical liberal next election. However, sane people warned them that there might not even be a government left to save.

[czarjak]

64. Pretty sure...

Elections will be part of the demolition. The orange glow-boy said "2016 could be our last election".

[progressoid]

66. Let's get started, shall we...with an not-so-veiled attack on the left wing of the party.

Good start.

[raven mad]

68. Just a song...........