Paul Ryan is a practicing Catholic. How can he lionize Ayn Rand, an avowed atheist?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

No man can serve two masters: for either he. will hate the one, and love the other; or else. he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Matthew 6:24

[Warren DeMontague]

1. Because neither believers or unbelievers have a monopoly on morality?

[SharonAnn]

21. Maybe he attends Mass, but he doesn't actually "practice" the religion.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. No True Scotsman?

[Crunchy Frog]

82. He doesn't believe in or practice the teachings of the religion he claims to follow.

While he actually embraces and follows the teachings of someone diametrically opposed to eveything the religion teaches.

I'm no true Scottsman, and claiming that I was wouldn't make it so.

[Warren DeMontague]

92. So "real" Catholicism is incompatible with greed, then.

[Crunchy Frog]

98. More that it's incompatible with Randian Objectivism.

(It's purely academic for me, as I'm neither.)

[Warren DeMontague]

102. One would think, although in reality- particularly US political reality for the past few decades-

the party of Bible thumpers has also been the party of objectivist economics.

So at some point, again, the whole true scotsman thing applies. If large numbers of self-professed warbnoodlers are frimhatzing, it becomes meaningless to say that real warbnoodlers don't frimhatz.

Edited to add: Also, "randian objectivism" to my mind, is so functionally indistinguishable from "greed" that I think it's really just a fancy way of saying it, one that apparently involves having to subject yourself to badly written fiction containing 40 page monologues on the virtues of selfishness.

[WinkyDink]

118. Do you suggest the Vatican become as ISIS and the Taliban, and destroy these artistic treasures??

They are not being used to enrich any man.

[Warren DeMontague]

140. I'm suggesting the underlying premise here that believers are inherently more moral than unbelievers

Is bullshit, tiresome, and offensive.

[WinkyDink]

142. Excuse me, but you are confusing "Catholicism" (as in, a religion with tenets) with its

"believers," too many of them anyway.

And what has your reply to do with either your photo of what I presume is a Vatican treasure and my response?

[Warren DeMontague]

144. well, the vatican could take some of that scratch and feed the world's poor, couldn't they?

Beyond that, im not confusing anything. Maybe you missed the context of the thread. Do you think Atheists are any less moral than people who believe in "Gods"?

[WinkyDink]

152. Oh, brother. See my post above about the destruction of priceless art. Secondly, I MARRIED AN

AGNOSTIC**, AND HE WAS THE MOST ETHICAL, MORAL PERSON I'VE EVER MET. AND he was the son and the brother of Protestant ministers.

YOU seem to think that non-believers are more moral.

Bah. I'm done.

**Yes, I DO know which term I used.

[Warren DeMontague]

156. Agnosticism is great, as a general approach to everything. However, I suspect most "agnostics"

aren't quite as agnostic on, say, Zeus or Poseidon or Quetzlcoatl.

I find it funny when Theists demand belief or obsequiescence to a concept they're not even willing to flatly define.

But no, I don't make blanket statements about the morality of individuals. I do think the morality of the Vatican as an institution is certainly worth debating, wouldn't you agree?

The Vatican has forced centuries of priests into celibacy to facilitate its own institutional wealth accumulation. This isn't even really a questionable point.

There are certainly other criticisms that can be leveled at Rome for its behavior in recent decades, too, in case you follow the news.

You can't possibly think that institution is somehow above moral reproach?

[whathehell]

158. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise...

but Rand's philosophy was pure selfishness, which is antithetical to Christianity, as well as many other religions..Religion isn't necessary for altruism, and so her philosophy was unrelated to her atheism

[Warren DeMontague]

160. Here's another point. Christianity didn't invent selflessness or "do unto others"

A lot of the core "tenets" of the words ascribed to Jesus quite possibly came from Buddhism.

I could expound at great length as to how I feel that "selfishness/altruism" is a false dichotomy, that heightened awareness combined with ego loss can lead to illuminated states whereby one realizes they're actually indistinguishable.

But I'm sure nobody wants that.

Ayn Rand's primary flaw, if you ask me, was a failure of vision and imagination, along with zero sum thinking.

Problem with The Western Monotheisms (among other things) is that along with some of those deeply embedded core truths, there's a whole lot of hoo-hah about sky wizards and guilt around basic primate sexuality, etc etc.

[Orsino]

132. One can certainly claim to be Catholic, and claim to "practice" the rites...

...but Ryan's professional agenda is more or less the opposite of the big ideals of Christianity.

Where Ryan says he wears his suit to on the occasional Sunday doesn't make him less of cruel, murderous traitor. Catholicism enshrines the subjugation of women pretty baldly, so it would be the flavor he'd be most comfortable claiming.

[whathehell]

161. Ryan is not Catholic because

he's "comfortable" with the "subjugation" of women...He's Catholic for the reason most people claim to be of of a certain religion -- He was born and raised within it.

[Orsino]

169. Yeah.

Those who are comfortable with the identity may or may not practice it, and those who attend church--or pose for photos there--may or may not be believers.

A Ryan or a Trump could be usefully challenged if interviewed in any depth on the subject of reputed beliefs, which is why they don't let much of that happen. The contracictions are too near the surface to escape determined scrutiny.

[BCBacon]

24. I think he will have some conflicts to work out though.

Christianity and Objectivism are fundamentally opposed at the metaphysical layers, as well as ethics.

There could be some wiggle room however for him in the Christian anarchist camp of thought - which honestly, if one is a Christian, makes a good deal of sense. The central theme being that only God has authority over man, which implies man can't have authority over man.

Many people toss out the fact Jesus said "Render under Caesar"... but that never implied Caesar was actually owed anything. It could have been very clever wordplay to avoid him having to state that taxes were immoral, which would have been an instant death sentence for him.

Very good article here supporting the idea that Jesus was an anarchist.
http://anti-state.com/redford/redford4.html

[Warren DeMontague]

43. very good argument here supporting the idea that Jesus was an entirely fictional entity

originally with an entirely spiritual existence as part of a rather standard "mystery cult" of the day (think Mithras, etc) whose literal historical "existence" was written into the narratve around 100-300 AD or so, as Christianity matured into the form it has today.

http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/books/The%20Jesus%20Puzzle.pdf

[WinkyDink]

145. So what's your point? Based on a historic figure or not (Yeah, yeah: Mithras; Dionysus; whoever),

THE TENETS ARE STILL THE TENETS.

[Warren DeMontague]

154. This is a discussion board, not a church.

I'm discussing.

[TheBlackAdder]

41. This came up a few years ago, and Ryan disavowed Ayn Rand and professed his Catholic Faith.

.


He quoted a few Catholic Priests and went about his merry way. His bullshit was successfully consumed.


.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

61. Yep. During the 2012 Presidential campaign

He ran from Ayn Rand like a scalded dog.

Totally denied forcing his new hires to read Atlas Shrugged. Liar liar pants on fire.

[Adrahil]

62. Rand wasn't just an atheist.

She was an anti-theist. She was also a reprehensible person.

[Warren DeMontague]

63. And a lot of very devout believers in magic sky wizards are reprehensible people, too.

What's an "Anti-Theist"?

[Adrahil]

88. See below.... Thanks!

[Lordquinton]

75. I second Warren, what is an anti-theist?

And if it means what's implied, how is it any different or worse than theists who are anti-atheist?

[Adrahil]

87. It is what you think it is....

someone who actively hostile to any religion.

It's not particularly any worse than an atheist-hater , although as an atheist myself, I do not subscribe to that philosophy.

However, it is strange that anyone who is devoutly religious would embrace such a person so strongly (and yeah, despite denials, Ryan LOVE Ayn Rand).

[Lordquinton]

94. In general religion is anti-atheist

I wonder why the double standard, anti-theists are villanised, while anti-atheist is considered the norm.

[Crunchy Frog]

83. I'm pretty sure that believers in Ayn Rand have no morality at all.

[WinkyDink]

143. You are ignoring the word "practicing." If that is how Ryan perceives himself, then he is a sinner

IN THAT FAITH.

IOW, your reply is a non-sequitur.

[Warren DeMontague]

157. The RCC forbids masturbation and the use of birth control.

By that yardstick, how many Catholics are "practicing"?

[wcast]

2. Unfortunately, the same way Christians can pretend that Trump is a God fearing man.

And that Obama was a Muslim. It seems to be true that many Christians are only about political power and keeping the white power structure alive and well. They believe it is what God truly wants.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. Jesus wasn't white.

[wcast]

8. It is fun to tell Christians in my rural area that.

They are stunned and don't know how to reply. There was a book a few years ago that turned out to be fake called Heaven is real. It was purported to be "written" by a little boy who had "died" for a few minutes and saw Jesus. I read the book as my MIL raved about it. They even turned it into a movie that the local movie theater ran and religious groups lined up to see it.

Anyway, in the back of the book were pictures the child allegedly drew after the encounter. As soon as I saw a white skinned, blue eyed, blond hair Jesus, I knew it was fake. A few years later the dad, who was a preacher, admitted he and his wife made it up. They sure did make some money off of it though.

[erpowers]

19. Different Book

I think you are thinking about a book called The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven. The two books are very similar and are part of the same genre. However, as far as I can tell, the boy behind Heaven Is For Real is still standing by his claims. An interesting note is that the last name of the boy who wrote The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven is Malarkey.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/15/377589757/boy-says-he-didn-t-go-to-heaven-publisher-says-it-will-pull-book

[WinkyDink]

146. You must be fun at parties.

[JDC]

12. A Long haired, dark-skinned liberal

Xstians can't ever wrap their heads around it when pointed out.

[Act_of_Reparation]

65. A long haired, dark-skinned liberal who tacitly approved of slavery...

...prohibited divorce, and proclaimed over and over and over again that anyone who didn't follow him was doomed to spend eternity in the furnace.

Maybe he had more in common with Republicans than some would like to admit.

[JDC]

70. ha

[demosincebirth]

71. I do - without question.

[WinkyDink]

147. Make that "Socialist."

[msanthrope]

20. Jesus wasn't anything. There's simply no reasonable evidence he is anything but myth. nt

[Ruy Lopez]

25. Moses did not exist. Prototypes of Jesus and Muhammad 'might' have existed

Jesus might have been the guru of a small Jewish cult.
While Muhammad might have been some kind of shaman/public speaker.

[Wounded Bear]

34. I'm an amateur, of course...

but I've always held that Jesus was probably an amalgam of the numerous prophets running around occupied Palestine at the time.

Would explain the number of "Gospels" out there, too.

[Ruy Lopez]

165. I'm not sure we'll ever know now

Was the story of Jesus completely made up to fit the OT prophecies or did a little Jewish sect try to paste those prophecies on their founding guru?

Given the lack of real evidence after two millennia, it would now take some extraordinary stroke of luck to be able to settle the question.

[Wounded Bear]

166. It is certainly doubtful...

that at this date some scientific or even historically verifiable evidence would surface.

[WinkyDink]

148. Are you intimating that the very real historic figure of Mohammed might be fiction?

[Ruy Lopez]

164. There is growing evidence of large discrepancies in the 'story' of 'Muhammad'

Patricia Crone started a chain reaction of critical reassessment of the canonical canon.

And that canon is pretty much in tatters now among historians.

[snooper2]

167. yes, along with his flying horse LOL

Which is a good thing as a 9 year old girl by the name of Aisha wasn't really raped then....

[Eliot Rosewater]

55. Not the point though, the believers think he did and yet the Ryan's of the world

turn away from every teaching of his or alleged teachings.

I am an atheist but the real christians I know can be relied on when necessary who would never support this monstrosity healthcare repeal.

Truth is I dont know many that think this way, but they are out there.

[Crunchy Frog]

86. Weren't there a fair number of itinerant preachers with small groups of followers

in that time and place? I find the existence of such a person at least plausible.

I'm reminded of the scene in Life of Brian, where there's some prophet preaching on every block.

[Warren DeMontague]

67. Yes! EXACTLY!

Just one of many things that he wasn't.

http://www.alternet.org/belief/5-reasons-suspect-jesus-never-existed

[WinkyDink]

119. Nor was He Christian!

[lapucelle]

153. I'm a foreign language teacher.

In grad school I read an article in a professional journal concerning a debate over the elimination of World Language programs from the Texas state curriculum. One legislator argued:

"If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for the schoolchildren of Texas."

Not only was Jesus white, he also spoke English. With a Texas twang.

[Warren DeMontague]

46. The idea that morality is synonymous with "God Fearing" is itself bullshit.

A lot of the most moral people I know are unapologetic Atheists, and some of the worst ones go to church all the time and swallow up everything they hear there.

[Greybnk48]

3. He's a Cino. Christian in name only. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

47. No True Scotsmen running wild in this thread

[Greybnk48]

85. I'm not sure what you mean.

Would you explain?

[Warren DeMontague]

93. No True Scotsman Fallacy:

No Scotsman would eat quiche.

Bob eats quiche, and Bob is a Scotsman.

No True Scotsman would eat quiche.

[Greybnk48]

121. I'm not sure this fallacy applies here.

To say that Ryan does not follow or take seriously the basic and fundamental tenets of his religion means that he's not a follower of that religion, no? I think he claims to be Catholic, without actually living a Catholic life in ANY meaningful sense.

I'm waffling a bit here Warren, but doesn't saying that "I'm a participant in the Catholic religion' have to be meaningful?

FTR: I'm an unapologetic atheist.

[Warren DeMontague]

141. At some point we need to acknowledge the on the ground reality, though.

I mean, a lot of Catholcs use birth control, too.

[Orsino]

4. Being a GOP Congresscritter means ignoring cognitive dissonance for money.

If you can't claim both A and not-A in the same paragraph, go the fuck home and make way for a Republican who will.

[Wounded Bear]

35. I think you mean "exploiting" not ignoring...

[Orsino]

37. Well, both...

...but the OP asked how anyone could stand all the lying. I think that that answer, ultimately, is money.

[DetlefK]

6. Meh. One can be religious and tolerant of other faiths at the same time.

Just look at the ancient Middle-East and Mediterranean. Several dozen countries. Each with their own gods and own religion. Yet they never went to war over religion, it was always about power and conquest.

[bdamomma]

7. postcard mail out date is March 15th tomorrow

send him a postcard if able.

Home address:
Paul Ryan
5320 N. Lake Drive
Whitefish Bay WI 53217-5372

For good measure
Headquarters:
PAUL RYAN
700 ST. LAWRENCE AVE.
JANESVILLE, WI 53545

[Kolesar]

9. I'll tell you about my selective Catholicism after I slough off this condom

Pardon my flippancy. To be a Christian, one must accept all of the Christ story and orthodoxy. I doubt if there are many who contemplate what angels and cherubs are up to today. I think I know one woman who prays the rosary. Something does not fit, obviously.

He calls himself a Catholic so that he can display moral outrage about abortion and be cruel on every other political issue at the same time. Yes, I think you were hinting at that.

[HoneyBadger]

10. Because even practicing Catholics are rarely religious extremists

Most people are tolerant.

[Ilsa]

11. Ryan requires a highly structured religion and rules to

**cough** cough** live under or live by because without them, his natural sociopathy shines through.

[vlyons]

13. As Ayn Rand would say ---

"That is a contradiction. Check your premises."

[sharedvalues]

14. Ayn Rand' work is oversimplified, poorly written garbage

Ayn Rand's books are terrible. They seem to make sense when you read them as a teenager. But as you grow intellectually and understand how the real world works, you realize how simpleminded and wrong her arguments are. Most people by college get educated enough to reject Rand.

Ryan demonstrated his lack of intellectual heft first by backing Rand. And now he's demonstrating it by showing such weak command of healthcare policy.

It's easy to counter Rand: "Read Piketty - Rand's policies end up with wealth concentrated at the top. Government is necessary to share economic gains with everyone."

[Mendocino]

50. "There are two novels that can change

a bookish fourteen year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is childhood fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course involves orcs."

John Rogers

[sharedvalues]

96. yup

[Vogon_Glory]

15. George Orwell said it concisely

Doublethink. Doublethink is the act of holding two mutually-contradictory memes in your head-- and believing both of them.

[lunasun]

16. Hitler was Catholic . check out some past popes

[WinkyDink]

120. Born Catholic; practicing Occultist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_and_the_Occult

[atreides1]

17. That's his problem!

He's been practicing for years and still hasn't gotten it right!!!

[nikibatts]

18. It's all about "religion of convenience." People don't really believe in their religion...they just

say they do for political reasons. You must be some kind of God-fearing Christian to be successful GOP politician. Never mind how you actually live your life.

[SharonAnn]

22. Except that I think that Tim Kaine actually practices his Catholicism.

He seems to try to live Christ's teachings.

[Wounded Bear]

36. Tim Kaine is not a GOP politician...

[nycbos]

54. Indeed

Joe Biden, and Jor Kerry are also good examples.

[coco22]

23. Because he is a hypocrite ..

lying asshole..

[Squinch]

29. Yup. We need look no further for complex explanations.

[democratisphere]

26. Fake Catholic for appearance only.

[3catwoman3]

27. He'd better practice some more.

He's not very good at it.

And why doesn't he have 12 children?

[Tom the Mechanic]

28. You say that like athiests are bad and catholics are good

There shall be "no religious test".

There's a reason that's in the Constitution, Article VI.

Because religions divide us.

[lunasun]

32. Agree on all

[GoCubsGo]

30. He is a sociopath.

He is a liar and a manipulator, just like everyone else in his ratfuck party.

[erpowers]

31. Maybe He is Not a Practicing Catholic

Catholics, at least some of them, were angered a few years ago when it came out that Paul Ryan was an Ayn Rand supporter. The Catholic Church, as a whole, claims to not support Ayn Rand, mainly due to her atheism, but also probably due to her support of abortion and her hatred of the poor.

During that time Ryan walked back his support for Rand. I think for a while he claimed to have rejected her ideas. He may have even gone as far as to try to claim that people had lied when they claimed he was a major Ayn Rand supporter. I know that may seem weird in that Ryan seems to be a vocal support of Rand. However, I think what happened was that he claimed to be a Rand supporter, the Catholic Church balked at that idea, and then he backtracked his statements of support and tried to claim he had been a fan of her in high school, but once he entered the real world he realized her ideas were wrong.

[Johonny]

33. Because he doesn't understand either the Catholic religion or Ayn Rand's work

When you're a simple minded ideologue life is easy. Everything fits in your basket.

[smirkymonkey]

104. +1000

This!

[Greybnk48]

38. Ayn Rand was not just an Atheist.

An atheist, by definition, is someone who is without a religious belief system. Nothing more, nothing less. The word literally means "without religion."

Ayn Rand was an avid crusader against religion; and anti-religion zealot in her writing on the "Virtue of Selfishness."

She was a clumsy thinker who failed to distinguish between actual selfishness and enlightened self-interest, which is not selfishness. Clumsy thinkers like Ryan who read her, fail to make this distinction as well, and think, gleefully, that it's rational and moral to be a selfish prick. Even Hobbes rejected that thinking as self-defeating in Leviathan.

[LaydeeBug]

39. We should be taking pro-death Catholics to the same woodshed they take pro-choice Catholics to

Someone should call his office:

Did Russian Ryan swear an oath to the Constitution? Did he take the Eucharist in church this Sunday? Did he try to stop the death penalty anywhere? War? blight?

These motherfuckers need to be called up for ex communication just like they do to weaponize being pro-choice.

[NNadir]

40. If you've gotten over your acne, and still admire Ayn Rand, you're permanently puerile...

...a pure simpleton who should not be trusted with any responsibility.

(Alan Greenspan's "best" contribution to the world was the 2008 economic collapse, from which the world was only saved by the election of a smart person to the US Presidency.)

Rand utilized Medicare and Social Security as she was dying from lung cancer, a disease she certainly deserved. She was, on this score alone, full of shit.

That vicious racist asshole Ryan wants to destroy both.

Her books are stupid as sin. In particular her fantasy novel "Atlas Shrugged" involved among other fantasy junk, a violation of the second law of thermodynamics, not that she was educated enough to know that inviolable law of physics.

[dalton99a]

44. +1

[hatrack]

123. Dorothy Parker on "Atlas Shrugged":

"This is not a book to be put down lightly. It is to be thrown, with great force."

[NNadir]

162. Well, as a chronic insomniac, I can say that the book had a certain therapeutic...

...value.

In a clinical trial involving only myself, I found that reading five lines of John Galt's very stupid speech, even a chronic insomniac can either go to sleep or become brain dead.

It appears that part of the country, some of them represented in Congress, chose "brain dead."

[hatrack]

163. Well, as Alice Roosevelt asked when informed when Calvin Coolidge had died . . .

"How can they tell?"

[no_hypocrisy]

42. Because Ryan worships wealth, not God or Jesus.

In a Calvinist way, Ryan's philosophy is God loves rich people and condemns those who are poor. The latter offend God with their idle, slothful, irresponsible laziness and poverty.

Ayn Rand made greed and selfishness religious memes to be emulated and spread like the Gospel.

[WinkyDink]

122. Mammon.

[MrScorpio]

48. You don't actually take his religious protestations seriously, do you?

[Warren DeMontague]

49. Ayn Rand is exactly as indicative of the moral caliber of "all" Atheists

As Fred Phelps or Osama Bin Laden were of all people who believe the Universe is run by a giant invisible man in the sky.

[elleng]

51. He may 'practice,' but I don't think he's got it down yet.

[pangaia]

52. Paul Ryan is a practicing shit bag. And he practices a LOT!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

53. I wonder if he ever goes to confession?

"Bless me, Father, for I have sinned; I just voted to kill 29,000* people over the next 10 years." How many Hail Marys does he have to say to atone for that one - or does he just head straight to Hell?



https://thinkprogress.org/trumpcare-deaths-uninsurance-484738b03825#.y34v033ep

[Progressive dog]

56. I really disagree the premise

that your question assumes.

[Warren DeMontague]

73. Yeah

I get a little tired of the implied argument that belief in invisible beings somehow implies more moral caliber. Anyone who doesn't think Theists are capable of greed hasn't been down to the basement of the Vatican lately.

[still_one]

57. Pope Francis said it is better to be an atheist than a bad Christian.

Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a bad Christian

[Lordquinton]

74. Yea, that was a huge insult to Atheists, actually.

The context was, like here, if you're acting"immoral" you might as well be an atheist.

[still_one]

76. I took it differently, that a moral and ethical person who is an atheist, is better than a christian

who is is NOT moral or ethical

[Lordquinton]

79. I don't give him the benefit of the doubt

"There are those who say 'I am very Catholic, I always go to Mass, I belong to this and that association'," the head of the 1.2 billion-member Roman Catholic Church said, according to a Vatican Radio transcript.

He said that some of these people should also say "'my life is not Christian, I don't pay my employees proper salaries, I exploit people, I do dirty business, I launder money, (I lead) a double life'."

And i see far more out there that supports what i see.

[Dem2]

58. He's as dumb as a brick, and lacks humanity to boot

[straightarrow]

59. Hi Democratic Underground

I just joined the Democratic Underground and don't know how it all works yet, and I haven't posted my profile yet, but first things first. I recently rewrote the lyrics to the 1965 protest song 'Eve of Destruction" by Batty McGuire. I sang the song with the new lyrics on my iPhone via a Karaoke APP of the original song. I also built a video to go along with the song, and posted to YouTube (my first).

I hope you will like it. Here it is. Pass it along.

Share it as you will within this forum and elsewhere.

If I have a positive response I will consider doing others

Regards

[Rhiannon12866]

99. Wow! Well done!

Looks like you didn't leave much out! Welcome to DU, it's great to have you with us!

[straightarrow]

125. Thanks

Thanks for the Kudo. Greatly appreciated.

[Achilleaze]

60. republicans piss on Bible teachings, embrace Mammon

[Act_of_Reparation]

64. Because "practicing Catholics" and "avowed atheists" can have no common ground?

[Warren DeMontague]

69. Atheists are bad people, mmmmkay?

I mean, that's pretty much the subtext when this shit comes up.

[Act_of_Reparation]

90. Pretty much the impression I get.

I mean, one could make the case that Ryan should have no interest in Rand because Rand's economic and moral philosophies are almost diametrically opposed to the stated values of the Catholic Church. Unless one is trying to suggest that Atheists and Catholics can't be friends, Rand's religious beliefs are completely and utterly beside the point. Yet they feature prominently in the OP.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

100. Did the seminal poster argue that atheists and theists can not be friends ?

I thought the assertion embodied in his statement was that he found it odd an avowed Catholic deified someone whose raison d'etre was to undermine the principles of his church.

[Act_of_Reparation]

105. Yes, they did.

If the seminal poster is confused, they should revisit the title of their OP.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

106. Joe said he is a vegan. Why did he invite me to Mortons for dinner?

[Act_of_Reparation]

107. Because he ejoys your company.

Any other ridiculous hypotheticals I can address, or are you getting the point now?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

108. That escalated quickly.

You seem a bit dyspeptic this morning. Tell DSB what's wrong.

Now that we got that out of the way the point of the seminal poster's question and original post concerned a person acting in a matter inconsistent with his beliefs. What part of that don't you understand ?

Joe is a socialist. How can he lionize Carl Menger?

[Act_of_Reparation]

109. I have a medical condition.

It's an acute intolerance to incoherent argumentation. Incoherent argumentation like this:

Now that we got that out of the way the point of the seminal poster's question and original post concerned a person acting in a matter inconsistent with his beliefs. What part of that don't you understand ?

It isn't that I don't understand your point. It's that your point is bullshit. Admiration is not dependent upon a congruity of belief, as even a cursory sampling of random people and their professed heroes would illustrate.

There are progressive liberals, I am told, who admire a 1st century religious fanatic who disapproved of divorce and homosexuality, but approved of slavery.

Joe is a socialist. How can he lionize Carl Menger?

They both like beards.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

110. " Admiration is not dependent upon a congruity of belief" ?

Do you routinely admire people whose beliefs contradict your own ?

Reminds me of the fig leaf Louis Farrakhan tried to hide behind when he mused that Hitler was "wickedly great."


BTW, you still seem a bit dyspeptic. Here's a while you fashion your response.

[Act_of_Reparation]

111. I already gave you one example in the previous post.

Did you not read it?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

112. You said a socialist could lionize the founder of Austrian Economics because he admired his beard...

You said a socialist could lionize the founder of Austrian Economics because he admired his beard:

Joe is a socialist. How can he lionize Carl Menger?


They both like beards.

-Act_of_Reparation


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8794519

That is as illogical as saying Tom Selleck could lionize Joseph Stalin because he admired his mustache .

[Act_of_Reparation]

113. Oh, for fuck's sake.

I'm talking about this:

There are progressive liberals, I am told, who admire a 1st century religious fanatic who disapproved of divorce and homosexuality, but approved of slavery.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

115. "Oh, for ----'s sake. I'm talking about this: "

Joe is a socialist. How can he lionize Carl Menger?


They both like beards.

-Act_of_Reparation


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8794519

"There are progressive liberals, I am told, who admire a 1st century religious fanatic who disapproved of divorce and homosexuality, but approved of slavery. "

-Act_of Reparation

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8794739

Maybe there are progressive liberals who "like" him because of his "beard".

[Act_of_Reparation]

116. Maybe they do.

Your concession is accepted.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

117. If lapses in logic were gold you would be King Midas.

How can one accept what is not offered?

What part of most folks don't lionize other folks for the most superficial of reasons don't you understand?

[Act_of_Reparation]

137. Can't tell if you're serious...

...or don't understand sarcasm.

And to be honest, I'm not especially interested in finding out. I'll just say my peace here and check out, if you don't mind. If you feel especially compelled to reply, feel free to pretend I read it.

People often look up to figures with whom they have little in common. Christians look up to the egotistical, prudish, and zealous Christ, holding him up as a King of Kings, blissfully ignorant of the fact no modern human being in his or her right mind would want to live in a Kingdom run by a guy who's fucking fine with human bondage. Some look up to Muhammad, who believed the testimony of a woman was inferior to a man, and who had sex with a nine year old Aisha bint Abu Bakr. Americans look up to George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, and Abraham Lincoln, and all of these men held at least some beliefs virtually every modern American would find reprehensible.

Why?

Because we don't lionize actual people. We lionize romantic caricatures of people. We think of these people not as they were but the way we would most like to think of them. You think all those kids running around in Che Guevara t-shirts would want to meet the real Che Guevara? Do you think Che Guevara would want to meet a kid wearing his face on a fucking t-shirt?

And yes, everyone does this. Just scroll through the threads of your own fucking OP and look at all the sycophants claiming Jesus of Nazareth, a 1st century cult leader, held progressive liberal opinions that didn't come into vogue until the late 17th century and beyond.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

138. " If you feel especially compelled to reply, feel free to pretend I read it. "

Can we be more cliched?

The proverbial "I will let you have the last word and declare victory."

Americans look up to George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, and Abraham Lincoln, and all of these men held at least some beliefs virtually every modern American would find reprehensible.

-act_of_reparation

Why?

Why?

Because we look at them in the context of their time and not ours.

[snooper2]

168. How come when I use the bathroom a woman at a Toyota plant drops her impact gun?

[treestar]

130. No I think they are only saying for Lyan Ryan

It is a contradiction. He claims you have to be a Christian to be moral and then admires someone who says that morality is being as selfish as possible. Atheism doesn't really come in here. Ayn happened to be an atheist, but on that alone, Lyan Ryan from where he comes should think she is immoral just there, let alone the vast difference between her moral system and the one Jesus promoted.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

131. "...let alone the vast difference between her moral system and the one Jesus promoted..."

Like this:

All the believers were united in heart and mind. And they felt that what they owned was not their own, so they shared everything they had.

Acts 4:32

[treestar]

133. That's a good one to throw at them

to see how they try to wiggle out of it!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

134. The early Christians were primitive communists.

[Drahthaardogs]

66. A man cannot serve two masters, for he will love one and hate

The other. Be ye not like the hypocrites. For many are called but few are chosen.


Simple, Ryan worships Mammon

[QED]

68. Koch $$$

[Verbose Matthias]

72. He Clearly Needs More Practice

The Mark of the Beast was upon him, though he Walked in the Clothes of The Lamb."

[C_U_L8R]

77. Paul Ryan is no christian.

In fact, he seems the furthest thing from one.
Even Jesus would punch him in the face.

[hatrack]

78. He's practicing, all right . . . not actually doing anything Christ-like, just practicing

"Pretending" might be another word . . .

[manicraven]

80. I wish your title said something like this instead...

Paul Ryan is a practicing Catholic. How can he lionize Ayn Rand, an avowed hater?

Just because she was an atheist does not mean something negative, or how do I word that better? Ayn Rand would upset many atheists who believe in treating people with kindness, respect, and compassion.

[yortsed snacilbuper]

95. The catholics need a boogeyman.

to take the spotlight off their crimes.

[WinkyDink]

149. And the Protestants, Jews, and Muslims don't?

[hatrack]

124. All Rand proves is that atheists can be assholes too . . .

Which isn't much of a stretch.

[lapucelle]

81. The social justice group NETWORK (aka Nuns on a Bus)

has been calling Catholic legislators since Ash Wednesday to remind them them to walk the talk when it comes to justice for the poor and the marginalized. We started with Ryan.

Apparently, Ryan's Catholicism only extends to making judgments about people based on their sexuality and preventing women from exercising autonomy concerning their bodies.

I work with nuns. Everyone of them is a Democrat.

Here's my post with information if anyone would like to participate.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028724904

[Bettie]

84. He worships money and power

the Catholic thing is just something he tells the rubes who vote for him.

[Act_of_Reparation]

114. So what does that make him, then?

An atheist?

[Bettie]

135. A guy who believes in his own god

Christians would call him an idolater, one who worships an idol, in his case, money.

But, he puts on a show to make them all think he's pious. You know, that praying loudly in the village square so all may see his piety?

[Act_of_Reparation]

136. So, he literally worships money?

I am unfamiliar with the doctrines and dogma of Moneyist religion. Does he face the direction of the Federal Reserve and offer prayers in the requisite denominations?

[WinkyDink]

151. You've heard of Mammon? Or are you just being a literalist pedant?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon

[Act_of_Reparation]

155. I'm not being pedantic.

I'm trying to get you to see, by line of questioning, that there is no objective measure of who is and who is not a "true believer".

Paul Ryan says he is a practicing Catholic. I see no reason to doubt that. His politics and personal ethics may conflict with the official dogma of the Roman Catholic Church, but I can't think of a single Catholic on the face of the planet for whom this caveat does not apply. Just ask any of the pro-Choice Catholics who frequent these forums.

[Stargleamer]

89. he's also a Practicing Plutocrat

and that trumps anything else.

[milestogo]

91. He has two sets of mental furniture

He applies whichever one suits his purpose best at the given moment.

[GReedDiamond]

97. If Ryan is a "practicing Catholic," he needs more practice...

...because he's getting it all wrong.

I say that as an ex-catholic, now atheist.

Also, I find it totally discombobulating that Ryan's favorite band is Rage Against the Machine.

Lastly, fuck Ayn Rand and her "Objectivist" followers.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

101. The way I think Ayn Rand should have been "lionized"

involves actual lions. Hungry ones.

[JHan]

103. lol

[Orsino]

126. Quietly. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

127. Ayn Rand argued there was no such thing as other directed acts.

She said people do good things for others because it makes them feel good. That seems like a thin reed to hide behind.

[Orsino]

128. No journalist willing to demand he reconcile two opposing philosophies...

...is going to get anywhere near Ryan.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

129. I once saw a great debate between a small c conservative and a libertarian on Firing Line.

The libertarian was arguing there is no role for the state. The small c conservative was arguing there was a role for the state, albeit a small one. They were arguing whose responsibility it was to care for orphans. The libertarian said orphans could be cared for by charities. The small c conservative posited a scenario where there were no charities or relatives willing to take care of the orphan.

What is the role for the state?

The state (community) exists to fulfill needs that can not be fulfilled otherwise.

[WinkyDink]

150. Who cares what she thought? Do people care anymore about what Madame Blavatsky thought?

[DefenseLawyer]

139. He's a sociopath

Sociopaths are incapable of empathy. Sure he can grasp the "concept" and give lip service to it in the context of church dogma, but he can't feel it. His brain is just not wired to care about other people. People like him are drawn to Ayn Rand because she extolls the selfness that they naturally feel and says that not only is it acceptable but treats it as a virtue.

[Yavin4]

159. He's only "practicing" being Catholic.

He doesn't have it down yet.