No Bill Maher, you cannot have it both ways

[question everything]

You cannot proudly post a sign that "a woman should be able to be what the fuck she wants," and then decry Muslim women covered from head to toe. I don't know, you don't know, whether some of these woman preferred to be covered that way, for whatever reason, including the shelter and safety that this full cover provides. In some of these cultures men consider a view of skin as whoring, invitation to rape and murder. But this is not the women's fault, this is the men.

I see in our city women cover they heads with hijab and it appears that they do this freely.

I remember the revolution in Iran, when I was amazed to see how so many beautiful, professional, well dressed women chose to wear the chador (full cover with face exposed) after the Shah left. And then in Cairo, when women participated in the protests, with bare heads. One of them was on your show, dressed in Western clothes, talked to you, peppered her talks with some f-bombs. But immediately after Mubarak left - was it really worth it? - they all covered their heads.

I don't understand it, but neither do you and you should not decide whether wearing the chador, or hijab, or the full burka is oppressive to all women.

(One exception, of course: when applying for a passport or a driver's license, the face should be exposed).

[Jonny Appleseed]

1. That's exactly what I said as I watched.

Maher contradicted himself more than usual today. His interview with Tapper was good though.

[pangaia]

4. He's an actor.. making a huge salary...

[milestogo]

18. He's a misogynist.

He's a smart, funny man but I wouldn't take anything he has to say about women with more than a single grain of salt. He's clueless.

[pangaia]

22. Agreed

[question everything]

32. Indeed, he is. I was going to write to Obama to please not meet with him

not with two beautiful daughters who will have to struggle with so many bigots.

Never got around and Maher did put that last feather in his hat

[Doodley]

2. "I see in our city women cover they heads with hijab and it appears that they do this freely."

But their culture has conditioned them to do it. So, are the doing it freely?
But Western women are conditioned to put chemicals (make up) on their faces. Are they doing it freely?

[Hortensis]

59. Most want to, and that's more than enough.

Agree entirely with the OP. Maher's a jerk who displays the intolerance of the far left so well that sometimes I can't tell where he leaves off and the far right begins.

[JenniferJuniper]

3. Not defending nor not not defending Maher but

How many human beings with free will really want to always be covered from head to toe in public in sweltering weather?

I'm guessing not too many.

[Jonny Appleseed]

5. Neckbeards do it every day

Don't be a bigot

[JenniferJuniper]

8. Fair enough but,

that tree in the right background is barely in bloom.

[Orrex]

41. While the tree in the center background is lush and full.

Hmm.

[Kimchijeon]

9. LOL

[question everything]

12. Apparently wearing loose dark cover is not too oppressive

Many Bedoins - nomads in the Middle East - wear dark clothes while wondering the deserts.

What I used to have trouble with, after seeing Gone with the Wind - is the Southerns of those days wearing all the layers of clothing - men and women - in that sweltering heat. At least the heat in the Middle East is dry.

[JenniferJuniper]

13. This is a serious false equivalency

and I think you know that.

[JHan]

6. He was partly correct...

You mentioned the hijab and chador - they both allow a woman to speak freely but the idea of covering the woman's body is connected to sexual shame . Then you have the burka, which covers a woman from head to toe, impairs movement, and removes agency. If you're completely covered, you are invisible to society. Sure , some women choose to wear these garments and are happy with it, as a woman I find the burka in particular to be horrific, and some women freely decide to relegate themselves to second class status, but I can accept that a woman can make that choice while also acknowledging the misogynistic roots of the burka in particular.

[Alice11111]

28. I take the French position. The burka is akin to saying I

want to be abused and be a second class citizen because that is the culture I had to submit to in order to live. Now, I don't want to be rejected by my family, my husband, separated from my children, so I choose this.

There is no choice. They were and are prisoners of a repressive culture. Moreover, they are modeling the continuation of this practice for their daughters. If they had not been forced into submission and they had chosen this freely as an adult, maybe, it would be a different story.

The only way to free future generations is to ban the burka. These women risk everything in their lives to reject it.

[AgadorSparticus]

31. +1

[question everything]

33. I don't know. Has any French sociologist or criminologist ever asked any of these women?

I am sure that there are many intelligent, educated, Muslim women who participate fully in French life who could be asked. At least, in this country we see them. I've seen Anglo women in town dress with the Muslim style cover, though not necessarily black. Probably who converted to Islam, but they still go with their regular lives, to restaurants and stores.

[Dem2]

46. Agreed

On balance, it represents repression and is extremely misogynistic in my opinion.

[RoadhogRidesAgain]

54. But you can't say that!

Because speaking out against a cultural practice is the same as speaking out against a racial group of people!

/s

[Kimchijeon]

7. Well I'd have to say I'm more along Bill's line of thinking there.

Sorry, just the "but it's their religion" is not an excuse to allow the oppression of women. Same thing could be said for female genital mutilation etc. Nah, I'm not a fan of allowing religion or any other woo-woo nonsense to fuck over anyone's lives. Hurting women, children, anyone - not good. Not okay. It's okay to point out when things hurt people, even if its "a religion/culture". Doesn't matter, at least from my perspective.

And yeah, I agree too with what Bill says, "a woman should be able to do what the fuck she wants." The funny thing is though, when you are brainwashed by a religion you don't necessarily get to REALLY choose that. Sure, I bet someone can find some rarity grown ass woman who shouts from the rooftops how she freely chose her burka after a full lifetime, as a grown adult. (vs. being indoctrinated at childhood.) Well good for her, she's the exception.

Just saying, I don't think it's unusual to have those lines of thinking as Bill does. I agree with it, myself. I can see both sides there. I don't need to be part of the cult/religion/etc itself to understand that the group's practices are hurting/oppressing people. I don't think people should be afraid to point out the obvious, just because we don't want to be seen as "picking on their religion."

Don't mean to offend ya either. Just had to say I can understand both sides here.

[JenniferJuniper]

11. If one isn't supportive of fundie Christian males

who think wives should be submissive to them at all times, never work outside the home, and be slapped for even thinking of using birth control behind the backs of their headships, then I can't fathom why one would think it's okay for Muslim males to treat women like invisible pieces of property.

Both cultures suck bigly.

[Kimchijeon]

17. Yeah, for sure. Agree with ya there!

[BannonsLiver]

35. +1

[Doodley]

51. What about male genital mutilation? Circumcision. It is accepted because it is part of our culture?

What about over half-a-million gun-related deaths in USA since 9/11 - part of our gun culture. What about having over 7000 nukes and electing a deranged man like Trump? Who are we to impose our ideals on others when we haven't got our own house in order?

[Crunchy Frog]

10. Is he spending another episode going after Muslims again?

I'll have to skip it this week if he is. This country has enough scapegoating of Muslims going on without an alleged liberal getting in on the act.

[question everything]

14. Not the whole episode, only the last minute rant of his "New Rules." (nt)

[NurseJackie]

15. Bill Maher is worthless. He's dead to me.

He's a complete fraud. He and Milo and Coulter can go find an island somewhere and make their little love-nest together.

Fuck Maher.
Fuck Coulter.
Fuck Milo.
Fuck Sarandon.

[JHan]

19. lol.

[SunSeeker]

16. Full face coverings may be required for survival in some Muslim countries, but not in the West.

The hijab (head scarf) does not cover a woman's face, it does not erase her. But a burka and chador/veil do. I cannot imagine why a women would voluntary choose to wear a burka or face veil in a western country, other than misogynistic cultural/religious brainwashing.

[JI7]

20. i don't think most women cover their faces out of choice

i can see them wanting to wear the headscarf . but not the things that cover their faces.

[Warpy]

21. We have a lot of new Muslim immigrants in my part of town

and I've only seen one niqab so far. Most of the rest will start off with the full body veil and I've seen some of them progress to the simple head scarf. Few people bother to stare any more, it's gotten common enough around here that they're not made to feel uncomfortable no matter how they're veiled. That's a good thing.

Some will likely adopt reasonably Western dress (although I don't expect to see them in Daisy Dukes and halters) and some will not and it's not up to the rest of us and that's fine.

As for the men, they've seemed disinclined to treat the rest of us like we're worthless floozies, so I guess the local Imam has clued them in to that, too.

[Marie Marie]

23. Why do so many women squeeze their feet into stiletto heels that

deform the feet, put pressure on the back and knees, inhibit a natural gait and are extremely uncomfortable? Because, for whatever reason, they choose to. No one questions their right to do so. I doubt that Mahr has a problem with this because he probably finds these shoes attractive on women. If a Muslim woman chooses to wear whatever head covering she deems appropriate, then that is her right. I may not understand it but I don't have to. JMHO.

[stevenleser]

24. There is a reason that podiatry is one of the fastest growing medical specialities

I don't put that in the same category as Niqab/Burka but if the subject of shoes comes up I try to have that convo with female friends. Destroying your feet with those kinds of shoes is a prescription for having a much less pleasant life than you otherwise should have had.

[Alice11111]

29. Like the ancient Chinese practice of foot binding

Some women have part of their feet removed so they can wear sexy pointed toe shoes.
Geez, what about the beach?

[grossproffit]

25. There are no stiletto police but there are Islamic morality police in some Islamic states.

News that Iran has deployed thousands of undercover agents to enforce rules on dress has cast the spotlight on an institution that is a major feature of daily life in several Muslim-majority countries.

Police forces tasked with implementing strict state interpretations of Islamic morality exist in several other states, including Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Malaysia.

Many - especially those with an affinity with Western lifestyles - chafe against such restrictions on daily life, but others support the idea, and growing religious conservatism has led to pressure for similar forces to be created in countries that do not have them.

Here are some places where "morality police" forces patrol:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36101150

[BannonsLiver]

37. +1

So many attempts at false equivalence in this thread. It's like being in a room full of Trumpers when they find out he's broken the law again.

"Well back 80 years ago President so and so did it too!" or some variation of that.

[Marie Marie]

47. I understand your point but I am referring to women who are NOT forced to wear them

but choose to continue because of their faith or culture. Big difference. Wow, I've never before been compared to Trumpster. Sorry that you feel that way.

[BannonsLiver]

58. Ok

[tirebiter]

26. Women's shoe styles do have politics

High heels are the norm during conservative times, flats are the norm during liberal times.

[question everything]

36. This is why the British parliament is considering a law forbidding employers to demand high heels

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/06/world/europe/uk-parliament-nicola-thorp-heels.html

after a receptionist was sent home for wearing flat.

That employer, by the way, was PricewaterhouseCoopers, the same company that sacked from the Oscars both accountants, the man and the woman, even though it was the man who missed giving the correct envelope because he was busy twitting and basking in his "resemblance to Matt Damon."

[melman]

27. Bullshit

Maher is totally right.

[Alice11111]

30. Maher made fun of a woman with no arms last week.

I have a problem with the burka, as posted above, but I intentionally didn't watch his show this week. However, my bigger problem with Maher came last Friday, when he made fun of a woman with no arms. Is no one here, of all places, outraged by this??

This was a young woman, and then he followed up with a misogynistic joke about her " blowing someone." He played a large video of her lighting candles with her feet. Obviously, it was without her permission. The crowd booed. He snarled, ah, "come on, get over it."

We may be in the Age of Trump, but, with me, it's not anything goes. I have loved BM for over 30 years, and I have forgiven him many times, but this was even worse than what trump did to the handicapped reporter.
Unless he apologizes on his show, I am over him.
Actually, I think I'm over him. Period.

[BannonsLiver]

38. The show was on hiatus last week

[Alice11111]

39. I recorded it. It's possible it was not last weeks.

Not likely. I skipped over the first part after 5 minutes, the interview w the boring Republican, which went on 30 minutes, but several people on DU liked that. There was a thread here about him having an "off" night. Ill say.

[BannonsLiver]

40. I can say with certainty it was not last weeks show

Because he was off last week. They likely ran a repeat. I've been googling Maher makes fun of woman with no arms and variations of that but not getting anything. What was the context?

[Orrex]

42. Frankly, I would not be at all surprised if this were true

I find Maher completely disgusting, and it baffles me why so many progressives can overlook his transphobia and his endorsement of child rape. It would not shock me in the slighted to learn that Maher had also mocked the disabled.

I've seen a reference to this claim on Twitter, but I likewise can't find the original piece.

[BannonsLiver]

44. I enjoy Maher but don't agree with everything he says

It's not unlike feelings I might have about a particular pol who I disagree with on a few things but like overall. But I get it, he's not everyone's cups of tea.

[Orrex]

45. Love your screen name, by the way!

[Alice11111]

43. It was a handicapped misogynist joke. He showed

a young women w no arms, a birth defect, who was lighting candles with her feet, 10, I think, but it was irrelevant. For her, it was an accomplishment. For him, it was stupid. It doesn't matter. He said something like, she just needs to give some guy a blow job. I suppose he meant, from his point of view, it would be a better use of her limited body than lighting the stupid candles with her feet. I think he showed a photo of some guy that he suggested, as part of the joke. By that point, I was not paying attention to the fine details. Disgusting! I'm sure you can find ot on the web. I was so turned off by it, I couldn't get into the rest of the show, and turned it off. His audience booed him.

Too bad. I've watched him for years. Record it every Friday.
I might see if I can recover it for a date.

[Idoru]

53. He has been saying sexist shit for YEARS

I have watched him on and off for, well, decades now? Since Politically Incorrect was on network tv. I've watched his standups. He has always had "issues" when it came to women and at several points over the years, that, plus a lot of other things made me stop watching. Can he be very funny? Absolutely, that is why I watched him. But he isn't half as smart as he thinks he is and that is another reason I stopped watching. He annoyed me as much as he amused me and I never forgot all the sexist shit he has said over the years. None of this surprises me. He hasn't changed.

[Alice11111]

57. There were similar references on google of porn w/o arms

or legs.Vague stuff, and while I was searching under Bill Maher, I didnt check them out, as I was feeling sickened by it all, so I can't really say about other specific times, but it seems, he's made similar jokes before. I went through 20 pages! of google and many on u tube, in order to prove my point w some who challenged me on this.
I tried going back to my recordings on 2 devices, which had been deleted, and maybe I deleted it in disgust. Evidently, it was a rerun, but a fairly recent one.

He can be one of the most incisive comedians, but he lacks empathy filters...I just can't see him in the same way. Beyond the pale.

[BannonsLiver]

34. All religion is silly

[JenniferJuniper]

50. Agree 100%. But some do more harm than others.

[nini]

48. I consider the forced wearing of those things abuse

However I know a few women who wear the hidjab and one who wears the type that covers the hair and shoulders and upper chest.
None of these women are pushovers but consider it part of their culture/religion basically. This doesn't mean there aren't women who are pressured to wear all that stuff.. I just don't choose to judge since I don't know every one's life story.

Considering I went to Catholic school and the nuns were in full blown habits back then in the stone age, it's not really different to me. Those habits were like the these in my opinion.

[pnwmom]

49. Scarves are one thing. But I refuse to believe that in the countries where women are covered

from head to toe, with a screen over their eyes, that they are doing this voluntarily, and not feeling coerced.

[leftyladyfrommo]

61. In those places women dress like that to keep safe.

Showing any skin can mean a public beating or worse. That is a whole different thing than just wearing a scarf.

Many Orthodox Jews, Old Order Amish, other very conservative Christian women also dress very conservatively and cover their hair when in public.

It seems to me that many Muslim women choose to wear the scarves. And I am fine with that if they do so because they want to.

Having to completely cover yourself to keep from getting stoned to death is a whole different ballgame.

[pnwmom]

62. I have (rarely) seen women in a burqa in my US city. I cannot believe anyone would choose

to wear one of those things in 90 degree weather out of their own free will.

[leftyladyfrommo]

64. I saw one in the grocery store.

They were from Somali I think . She and her husband were very tall. I do see a lot of Muslim women on scarves and long skirts mostly in certain parts of KC.

I don't know how they stand it, either.

[JCanete]

52. Maher wants to hold onto this shit sooo badly. I assume its the place where he can part with

liberals to add credibility to his independence. I appreciate his program and a lot of the work he does, but he and Harris are being entirely absurd when it comes to Islam, and it has a price. Its so embarrassing that he would feed atheistic and christian conservatives the red meat of the Koran being some magically evil book that has super powers to radicalize people. They eat that arbitrary distinction up.

To be an atheist and to hold this idea is such a contradiction. It rarely seems to be the actual content of religious texts that influences behavior, or we would never have had wars in the name of Jesus Christ. It is all about the culture and who is using the power of the church or the religion, towards what gain. Radicalization is all about who has little enough to lose that something like a holy war is appealing. The reasons religions evolve towards or away from violence have a lot to do with the changing culture itself and people being unwilling to trade "God's rewards" for human comfort. Religions evolve to stay relevant and alive, and they reflect the places they exist in. That's why Islam in America isn't radical, and frankly, is less radical that evangalistic Christianity.

I wish he would finally have somebody on to not simply tell him that he's mischaracterizing Muslims, but that his whole critique of the religion is starting from that absurd assumption that the religion is the root, not human nature in the face of real-life struggles. Why can't he connect the dots that in war-torn regions where we have meddled and caused regime change, destabilization, and vacuums of power, that where there is proximity to bloodshed and persistent outside threat(but only in those places), the endemic religions might start to reflect that.

And certainly alienating communities in western civilization is not a way to erode antiquated thinking. Exposing them to liberal society, emphasizing rights and protections, and simply presenting an alternative will probably go a lot further than making women themselves feel judged by us for their beliefs and practices. The latter is not empowering them to reject practices they come to disagree with, it puts them instead in the unenviable position of needing to defend their faith and their family and to embrace whatever oppressive baggage that entails in the process.

[question everything]

55. Thank you for a well thought post

On occasion we argue about religion. My spouse claims that religions - all of them - have been behind wars and poverty and misery. I say that for many it is a place of comfort of safety. Both of us are trained scientists, we are used to think logically, yet I accept it that, especially during times of misery, that many people find comfort in god, that at some point god - any god - will take care of me, that this is god's wish, that god acts in a mysterious ways and all the other cliches.

I also would like to think that many religions' command to take care of the weak, the sick, orphans, widows and the elderly are the only reason that people do.

In many religions the extremes are the ones offering food and shelter and schooling for the poor, while government officials take care of their own. This is how many madrasses operated and this is how they got the pupils indoctrinated.

[moonscape]

63. Excellent post. Well-said. n/t

[Gothmog]

56. I stopped watching this show a while back

[Bradical79]

60. I agree with Bill on this one

Though with his toxic reputation on Muslim issues, he's probably not a great spokesman for that position.