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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm going to be in the minority here re NK but...
NK has violated 8 agreements and played us the US for suckers.
I hope chump tries to put pressure on china to shut down their nuclear program .
I hope chump tries to negotiate with them.
I don't think this will work.
But this little punk Kim Jung Un is a thug, murderer and dictator.
If he gets long range nukes that can wipe SF off the map, I would want to see some response.
At that point it the US should take out his weapons by conventional weapons.
I know that's blasphemy here but that's how I feel.
Go ahead , flame away
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VMA131Marine
(4,138 posts)not all of which we can locate, you also have to knock out all the artillery on the Southern border of NK before it flattens part of Seoul. You'll probably also need to commit several hundred thousand ground troops to stop the invasion of SK by over a million NK troops.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)We can destroy North Korea, but at what cost.
I am trying to think of an analogy. I have one. I have a buddy... A big guy, a competitive bodybuilder. He's 6'5 260. There's always some drunk guy in a gym who wants to fight him. Before he was married and had a kid he would oblige him, get in a bar fight, win, and then get arrested. Now he just laughs it off. Better than going to jail.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)oh...we can put pressure on china and offer to negotiate but if that fails, then we just watch?
VMA131Marine
(4,138 posts)So just drop that strawman. We do need China to be much more aggressive in putting economic pressure on the NK regime though; it is clearly not in their interest to have a rogue nuclear armed state on their border.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)
Yupster
(14,308 posts)We should leak info to the NK government that their top generals and economic leaders are in talks with the US to assassinate Kim.
Kim will then have them killed in creative ways.
Then keep doing that until the remaining generals and other leaders decide they have to get rid of that monster since they will be next to be killed.
That's how I would do it.
WestSeattle2
(1,730 posts)Yupster
(14,308 posts)If anyone can get rid of him, it will have to be the generals.
We have to make it worth their while.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)killed himself.
Yupster
(14,308 posts)They failed and many lost their lives for the attempt.
Separation
(1,975 posts)During the purge, Stalin killed so many of his Generals that Germany was able to steamroll its way into Russia because there was zero leadership at the time Germany started Operation Barbarossa.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)
Docreed2003
(16,858 posts)At the first signs of a strike or provocation, NK's initial response will be to launch the full force of its southern artillery which will decimate Seoul. By the time we have enough troops to prepare for an invasion, NK will likely already have control of the peninsula.
VMA131Marine
(4,138 posts)NK has a lot of troops, but their equipment is mostly obsolete and their command and control system would quickly become non-existent. The North's air force would last only marginally longer than Iraq's did in Gulf War I, so ground troops would be sitting ducks to air attack. Nevertheless, there are enough of them that they could do a huge amount of damage before being stopped.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Those people have been imprisoned. Very few truly support this crazy dictator. They are only on board to keep their families alive.
I trust China's judgment much more than trump and friends. We don't have Obama and a rationale leadership at the helm now. We have Iago, Bannon, whispering in Dumpy's ear, start a war.
Yupster
(14,308 posts)What happens when their soldiers get to Seoul and see it isn't the starving hellhole they've been taught to believe their whole life?
still_one
(92,139 posts)That is the wild card, and why it could escalate in a very bad way. Trump's comments reversing the U.S. one-China policy, along with supplying Taiwan missiles, has complicated this issue.
former9thward
(31,981 posts)Who is the "we"? South Korea has one of the largest armies in the world -- 3.7 million. They are well equipped and well trained.
Docreed2003
(16,858 posts)Yes, all told, the ROK army is about 3.7 million, but only a little over 650,000 of that number is active forces. My point was not that the ROK army couldn't hold its own, it was that if NK starts with an artillery bombardment of the south immediately, Seoul will be crippled and the ROK will need immediate help. Mobilizing a sufficient force of US and allied troops to aide South Korea and hold back a full invasion of the South will not happen overnight.
Mendocino
(7,486 posts)if we start anything on the Korean Peninsula.
still_one
(92,139 posts)reversing the one-China policy, and pushing sales of arms to Taiwan.
This macho bullshit has the potential to cause things to get out of control, and once that happens it will be very difficult to stop it, and a lot of people can get killed because of this, including us
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Mendocino
(7,486 posts)I vowed to return to the Philippines to protect my investments.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Mendocino
(7,486 posts)"General Custer when they get done with you, there's going to be nothing left but a greasy spot".
Kimchijeon
(1,606 posts)Nazi-worshipping sycophants like Bannon would love nothing more than to decimate the Korean peninsula, and that's what makes the current situation most worrisome.
unblock
(52,197 posts)we just think donnie is the *last* person we want in charge of that.
in fact, we're scared sh*tless of how he might handle the situation.
unblock
(52,197 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)unblock
(52,197 posts)Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)and is trying to develop intercontinental ballistic weapons .
VMA131Marine
(4,138 posts)That won't comfort SK or Japan however.
unblock
(52,197 posts)bathroommonkey76
(3,827 posts)http://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2017/02/25/north_koreas_chemical_weapons_110864.html
VMA131Marine
(4,138 posts)As would an attempt to launch a nuclear tipped missile at the US, Japan, or SK. The question is whether or not Kim Jong Un is suicidal.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)the entire Trump administration should stand trial in the Hague for crimes against humanity.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)He despises the Hague, and any institution that could have authority over him, he's quitting, underminig, or fails to recognize. In principle, I agee w you. I think principles are like fake news now.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)all...why not>
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)...too much risk, for one thing in taking the lid off and having real hearings.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)I doubt Trump would go willingly to the Hague, but the Democrats would have to extradite him.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Kingofalldems
(38,451 posts)Didn't realize being critical of Trump bothers you.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)That's why Hitler ate his own gun in the bunker at the end.
These evil fucks know the fate awaiting them so all the nukes will launch, all the nerve gas gets delivered, all the arty roars and 1.2 million active soldiers, and 7.7 million in reserve head across the DMZ.
It will be an unimaginable nightmare when the draft dodging boy general Trump pulls the trigger on NK, count on that!
Doreen
(11,686 posts)Trump does not like SK. I think he would go with the attitude that they should deal with an attack themselves. Remember he is pissed that China if giving them weapons to protect themselves from NK.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)period
Doreen
(11,686 posts)heard it wrong ( I was probably talking here 
. ) I still do not think Beelzebub likes them though.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Egypt and Israel did not sign it either.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)unblock
(52,197 posts)Alice11111
(5,730 posts)does not insure against, "acts of God," war, but some add costs for terrorist coverage now. For something of that magnitude, even reinsurers like Lloyd's, could not manage it. I don't think it would be covered, unless DT just got it becase he intimidates, by his position, of retaliation. Probably a moot point anyway, once that is unleashed, who knows?
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)he'll just stiff the creditors. He's done it many times.
in Seoul, Daegu and Busan.
I've seen one of the 3 in Seoul.
jpak
(41,757 posts)I don't think so...
wont be so funny when they figure some things out.
And your practical idea is ?
jpak
(41,757 posts) Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)Just admit you have no solution.
edhopper
(33,573 posts)and are you prepared for a shooting war with China?
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)I don't generally see support for war on this site. I consider all wars stupid and unnecessary.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)Yet the former oil executive had little new to offer on the policy front. “We look to China to fulfil its obligations,” he said. Like his predecessors, Tillerson appears to think that if only he can enlist Beijing’s support, then US-backed economic sanctions can compel Kim to give up his nuclear arsenal.
This approach is no more likely to succeed now than at any other time since the mid-1990s, when Kim’s father first began launching missiles in the direction of Japan.
In North Korea’s game of chicken with Malaysia over ‘hostages’, who will blink first?p
Firstly, it is doubtful how much diplomatic influence Beijing really wields in Pyongyang. Certainly North Korea is not the obedient client state of China that US President Donald Trump’s campaign statements allege. Kim has yet to make an official visit as North Korea’s leader to Beijing, and has never met China’s President Xi Jinping (習近平
.
Nor does Kim have much incentive to heed Chinese calls to halt his weapons programme. To the North Korean leader, nuclear missiles are the one guarantee of his regime’s security in a hostile world. Giving them up would be political suicide.
http://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/2079968/real-reason-china-wont-exert-economic-pressure-north-korea
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)I have no idea why you find it credible. You don't go after someone who has nukes and will lob them at S. Korea or Japan and God Knows who...and if we used nukes then Trump and his entire administration needs to be hand delivered to the Hague for crimes against humanity...no more wars...we need to find another way or just tolerate North Korea and see what happens...it may come down on its own. It is in China's interest to have stability.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)Further more, it's an opinion piece. Look, we get it. You want to go to war with NK and you want to do it with Shit Gibbon in charge. Two of the worse ideas in human history.
I don't have a "solution" because there are no guarantees in life but then again, neither do you so we're on equal footing. Might I suggest that you worry more about the tin pot dictator who has thousands of nukes at his disposal and is just as crazy as NK's.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)with asshat Trump in charge is insane...I am against war in general, but that man is crazy...and I mean Trump...
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)if we have a brain...nothing you say would ever convince me that would be a good plan...it is completely idiotic.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)brother ...more casualties than any war before or since...I believe this could have been settled without war...WWII...could have been prevented in my opinion ...once Hitler was on the march, there was little choice...we were attacked by a foreign country. However, all of the proxy wars since including Korea,Vietnam should never have been waged and did no good for anyone. The war in the middle east is a disaster and the last thing we need is to pick a fight with Korea...they have nukes. There is no point in more wars. It is simply a 20th century solution for 21st century problems. There is a reason why we lose...you would think that after engaging in the same failing strategies for more than 50 years, we would seek better solutions .
Yupster
(14,308 posts)I asked him if he had godlike powers and he knew that slavery was going to be gradually ended over a generation starting in say 1885, would he agree to not fight the Civil War, or would the Civil War still be necessary?
He said that was a good question and sat for a while pondering. Then he asked for more time to think it over. When we met again a week later, he said he had thought about it and talked to friends and family and decided the war would have to be fought out. Slavery had gone on too long and needed to be ended as soon as possible.
It was an interesting discussion.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)I will say two wars stand out in our history that ended great evil...the civil war and WWII...now I would consider the revolution and the war of 1812 successful as it drove Britain out. And we can all see how colonies of Britain fared. Now could an alternative method have end this evil. I don't know the answer to that, but we should have tried..now all the other wars, conflicts whatever you want to call them were pointless. There has been no war in my lifetime that obtained anything good. South Korea is a remenent of foolish war from the 50's ...we lost. And it would be the height of stupidity to engage in another pointless war which could cost millions of live this time. War is a 20 century answer to 21st century problems...and we fight such wars with tools that are obsolete...we spend millions on obsolete military shit. We need to find a better way to prevent war before we destroy ourselves.
edhopper
(33,573 posts)but you advocate starting a war that will surely end in mass destruction of our ally and probably a nuclear exchange.
Why do you imagine we could actually take out all his nukes in one shot with conventional weapons?
Right now containment is the best option. I don't believe he will use his nukes unprovoked.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)Youre willing to bet that that he wont use nukes?
You base that on what exactly?
edhopper
(33,573 posts)a nuclear war? And a war with China?
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)will kill many of China's people, probably a lot of Japanese and Russians on nearby islands. By using a nuke on NK, we open up a Pandora's box, and likely set off destruction of the world.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)China has even more troops that NK ready to fight. Threats don't work with Kim Jong-Un, they simply make him more unbalanced and put more effort into weapons. The situation is very dangerous now, especially since we now have two crazy people playing chicken with each other.
Motownman78
(491 posts)Is that Kim is just Sabre rattling. As Dr. Strangelove stated "Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy the FEAR to attack". NK is developing WMD's because of the "Axis of Evil" speech, which I consider the worst speech by an American president EVER. The one "Axis of Evil" with no WMD's gets invaded and taken over, WTF did that moron David Frum and Colon Powell think the other two were going to do?
PearliePoo2
(7,768 posts)Young Kim is absolutely determined to become a nuclear player. They just tested, apparently successfully, a high-thrust rocket engine. Kim says they will have a test launch of an ICBM soon. (capable of reaching San Francisco-Portland-Seattle)
What does the world do if a roll-out of this missile to the pad is detected? Immediately take it out? If his missile facilities are destroyed and bombed, I would assume South Korea and Seoul then gets hit instantly from N. K.'s massive artillery. Massive casualties.
Then it escalates to what? An all-out assault to destroy North Korea? Yeah, probably.
His father reportedly told young Kim, if you're going to be taken out, take everyone you can with you.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)I would love to hear any solution to this you might have .
PearliePoo2
(7,768 posts)When you say young Kim is a murderer, that's putting it mildly.
He recently suspected some aides were gossiping about him, so they needed to die. He pulverized them and turned them into hamburger with anti-aircraft guns. (not exactly your normal firing squad weapon). I can't even wrap my head around something so sadistic and maniacal. He's one sick fuck.
BTW, I live just north of 5 major military facilities in Western Washington State, including Naval Base Kitsap (Bremerton/Bangor). Nearly one-quarter of America's 9,962 nuclear weapons are now assigned to the Bangor submarine base on Hood Canal, 20 air miles northwest of downtown Seattle. This makes Bangor the largest nuclear weapons storehouse in the United States, and possibly the world.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)adigal
(7,581 posts)If anything started, they thought Trump,wpild use a tactical nuclear strike. Words that should NEVER be used.
Yupster
(14,308 posts)I propose we win through good old fashioned espionage and disinformation.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)We should put a spy into the leadership of NK ?
And we should use disinformation in a closed society?
Yupster
(14,308 posts)Just give the leadership information that members of the leadership are disloyal.
Let them tear each other apart until they get sick of it and get rid of the little monster.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)Feel free to post your solution ?
And yes we all agree for china to put pressure, offer talks, etc.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)Tillerson and his crew just want a war so stupid ass Trumpie can march around pretending to be a wartime president...and since he has advocated using nukes...that would be disastrous.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)Sounds good tho.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)his brother and keeps killing his upper leadership off. Give China time to find the right method for weakening Kim, I trust the end result of that more than I trust the end result of war (which could be fatal for the world).
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)If we strike him militarily, we make him stronger. If we use tactical nukes on his country, we draw China into a fatal war with us.
Kim's behavior is bad for China and China seems to have recognized that for several years now. I think that if we showed China that we could do a disinformation effort to weaken and rid NK of Kim and his cronies and China's hands won't get dirty, China could well step back and let us do it, as long as they get someone running NK that they are comfortable with after Kim is gone.
dalton99a
(81,455 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)the only hope is trying to de-escalate tensions and get China to push NK in the right way. But I don't think Trump is capable of such nuance and his tweet Friday didn't help.
So it looks bad...
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)You want to start a war?
Iggo
(47,549 posts)I don't think he's answered one of those yet.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)If there is no choice, yes.
I put no faith in China, I put no faith in direct talks.
I don't want to wait until they have a weaponized nuke to put on a warhead.
No I don't want to start a war. But neither am I willing to wait 5 years till they figure it out.
And some here say wait till they use it, ONLY then we can respond. Not me.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)that we have had for decades, for no reason other than they have gained a weapon. They have a term for people that start wars for no reason.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)all of our troops in South Korea could be killed. We have maybe 60,000 troops there to face down a million person army. Also, war has the risk of bringing China into the conflict, and they won't enter on our side. Very quickly we could be facing a combined 4 million person army. If we use tactical nukes (a concept tested experimentally, but never in real life), the nuclear fallout and dying people could cause NK and China to strike back with nukes, then, it's game over for the world.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Unless one believes that a leader of a country, any country, is willing to die for the sake of using nuclear weapons, why would anyone seriously think that it is likely that a hypothetical leader would engage in what would be suicide by nuclear weapons?
Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)the other in charge here.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)about N. Korea.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)do think the NK guy is completely loony and capable of coming to a conclusion that he could somehow survive a nuke war.
Otherwise what is he doing? Does he not know Trump is also a crazy idiot who is more likely than any human being alive to push the button?
I am asking, sincerely.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I am of the opinion that Kim would not use his weapons unless he thought he were to be attacked.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)Whats your solution?
Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)Its funny ...everyone recoils at the thought of a pre-emptive strike but when you ask for a solution...nothing.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)but if it was, this group is the last one I want doing it.
Sometimes there are no solutions when madmen are in charge like these two
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)kind of military operation, is Trump, the 2nd to the last is Bannon. The 3rd, Tillerson.
Nothing good will come of anything they do.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)Once Kim Jong Un is confident his ICBMs can launch and hit their targets reliably, what happens to SK? We've been playing a waiting game while NK developed its nuclear arsenal. If we interfere now, SK is obliterated. If we wait a little while and then interfere, California is at risk, and SK is obliterated. Before someone tells me this either or argument is a fallacy, please point out a third option in which NK gets what it wants and goes away quietly...for good.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)stopped whining and voted for Hillary?
You see there is no answer to this, now. With fuckface and team in power and insane murderer in NK, millions ARE going to die.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)from the likes of Tillerson. That's for damned sure.
And with Li'l Donnie's attitude toward NATO and the UN, who of our allies is going to step up?
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)he doesn't care.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)anymore on this board.
I wont refer to him as president, and I wont pay him the respect of calling him by his full name so not sure what to do.
He is likely going to facilitate the end of all life on the planet, so respect isnt something I care about in reference to him.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)I hope to God they impeach him or use article 25.
True Dough
(17,302 posts)It truly is a rock and a hard place type of scenario. There is no simple solution. The strategy has been appeasement for decades but meanwhile the risk level has increased due to North Korea's slowly but steadily improving military technology.
Renew Deal
(81,856 posts)I think that's morally unacceptable. So is the loss of millions, but the US should not recognize NK.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)It's better than the loss of life. My only concern is that it would not be enough to satisfy Kim Jong Un.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)
BunkieBandit
(82 posts)NK has done it before and they'll do it again. Instead of 5 year plans it is 5 year cycles they go through for money, grain, power plants etc.
Calculating
(2,955 posts)Little Kim is an absolute monster. He's guilty of horrific human rights abuses which are on par with those committed by the Nazis(although smaller in scale). He maintains concentration camps where he'll send a political offender and 3 generations of their family to be tortured, experimented on, worked and starved to death. After the holocaust people all said "Never again". Well guess what, it's happening again and nobody cares. He had his half brother assassinated in an INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT with VX (A weapon of mass destruction). He ignores all kinds of nuclear agreements and continues to develop longer range missiles. Eventually he'll have one which can reach America with a nuclear payload. Then what? Then he'll be a major nuclear power and we'll lose the ability to do anything against him. He CANNOT be allowed to develop ICBMs capable of getting nukes here. If we need to stop him, so be it. We're literally letting the next Hitler take hold because we're afraid of the consequences of stopping him.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)I agree with your post.
adigal
(7,581 posts)You don't poke a hornet's nest. You lose today, rather than some day in the future. Kim does not care of he kills 1/2 of his people. You contain him, not bomb him.
Once you hit Kim with any bombs, he responds with nukes and we 're off to the races. Where we kill millions at the end. And I do wonder if you would have this opinion if you lived in Asia, where he can reach today. Cause the American way is to start a war and then watch Dancing with the Stars as we kill millions.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)adigal
(7,581 posts)Since he doesn't care one whit about his citizens.
And then maybe you try to talk to him.Maybe. Call me nuts.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Huge! That was without and before Dumpie's upstage. DTs going over to bully China to the world will just backfire. They won't cow tow to him, but they will try to stop NK. They were the adults telling Rexie boy to slow down and let them try to work it out.
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)However, that figure certainly understates the true depth of the two countries’ economic ties. The South Korean estimates, which are derived largely from China’s own trade figures, show North Korea running a persistent trade deficit of between US$500 million and US$1.5 billion a year. Considering that North Korea cannot borrow internationally to finance this apparent deficit, it must have other sources of foreign currency income. The bulk of these are likely to be the thriving black market trade across the Yalu River which marks the Chinese border, and remittances from North Koreans working in China
http://m.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/2079968/real-reason-china-wont-exert-economic-pressure-north-korea
The coal will flow and China knows this.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)NK has few other options. They are at China's mercy.
That doesn't mean this crazy little boy dictator won't kick China and starve his own people more, but China will take control. DT has the worst judgment of any world leader. Keep him out of it in everway.
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)But I just don't think that it's as powerful as people think.
In my opinion the events of the next few days will be key.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)North Korea...but Trumpy needs a war damn it...He needs to stride around and pretend to be a wartime president...will probably wear a military uniform complete with gloves for his tiny hands.
stillcool
(32,626 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)out maneuver the North Koreans.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)everything he touches. That we do know. China has far more power and better judgment that Donnie Toddler. For him to stay out of it, is our only hope. We do not have adult leadership now. This is not Obama, or even our last 10 administrations. DT is almost as crazy as NKs dictator.
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)Bernie got blasted from saying this but he was on point. My only worry is that China doesn’t have the sway with NK the world thinks it does. IMHO this is why China has been reluctant to publicly put serious pressure on the regime. They don't want it know that their hand is actually weak.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)Renew Deal
(81,856 posts)He wants status quo. That's fine with me, but the experts on this stuff are getting alarmed about the NK situation. Supposedly Obama told Trump that NK will be his biggest problem.
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)I would point out that he wasn't asked what would he do once the biggest threat to America was identified. He did give some insight though. I also agree with him. Regardless of what the true power China has over NK, they are our only diplomatic option at this point.
I don't doubt what you are saying about what Obama told Trump at all... I hope I'm wrong but shit is about to get real if things don't calm down.
Renew Deal
(81,856 posts)"President Barack Obama on his final day in office told Trump he believed North Korea is the biggest national security threat to the US."
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)
I can only imagine what the Intel Obama was privy to.
I really hope that you are right and this NK stuff blows over. There's just to many bread crumbs for me to think that this is just smoke.
Renew Deal
(81,856 posts)I'm just saying that NK will probably not follow up on their threats. Trump is a different story.
Buckeyeblue
(5,499 posts)Is it the love of his own life and the power he has? Because he has to know that the second he attacks, he will be targeted and his country will be decimated.
But to the point of an earlier post, he keeps his people afraid and hungery. And tortures those he considers a threat.
I'm not advocating a preemptive strike I'm just trying to understand what prevents NK from waking up one morning and saying today is the day?
PearliePoo2
(7,768 posts)The nuclear ICBM that can reach Seattle. But he's getting closer to achieving it at a rate faster than expected.
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)IMHO the threat from him comes more from internal sources. Meaning if he's about to be toppled I don't think he would have a problem letting the world burn in one last action.
Almost all nuclear armed countries have protocols in place to stop a rogue leader from launching a strike. I highly doubt NK does.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)NWCorona
(8,541 posts)From him just making glass on a whim.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)democrank
(11,093 posts)especially given the fact that Kim Jung Un and Trump are both reckless narcissists determined to have their way at all costs. Nobody wins.
We can't give up on diplomacy, sanctions, whatever alternative there is to nuclear war.
Calculating
(2,955 posts)A classic case of when two assholes collide.
spanone
(135,826 posts)Bradical79
(4,490 posts)I just don't want Trump at the helm when it does. That would be worst case scenario for a North Korea war.
citood
(550 posts)"If he gets long range nukes that can wipe SF off the map, I would want to see some response."
He doesn't yet have a missile that can reach SF...or a warhead that could fit on a missile, if he had one. IOW, he is an enormous threat to his neighbors, but not an existential threat to the US.
When I first arrived in Korea while in the army, one of the first orders of business was a briefing on the situation. The gist - both sides have gazillions of rockets aimed at each other, and there could be a 30 mile wide charcoal path dividing the north and south if things went bad.
Which begs the question...why do we have so many troops there? To his credit, Rumsfeld reduced that number. It should be reduced more. Our presence there is part of a Cold War strategy, that is no longer applicable.
The North's dictator is a terrible guy...and the middle east has some terrible gu's in charge...as does Africa...bottom line, we can't police the world anymore.
Renew Deal
(81,856 posts)NK is a matter of perspective. I don't think they have the guts to make any big move first. So they can do what they want, but they aren't really accomplishing anything. Some people take the threat as serious and iminent. I'm not convinced.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)Leading in that direction...Yes.
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)"hurry up and wait" comes to mind. Or that saying about the frog in that pot of water.
Renew Deal
(81,856 posts)I don't. It's all about survival for them. Lil Kim will not jeopardize his cush lifestyle.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)The problem now could be nothing compared to later when his program is advanced.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)They were wrong...war is stupid and pointless. And to even consider war with NK...shows how insane Trump really is.
Renew Deal
(81,856 posts)Obama told Trump that NK would be his biggest issue. William Cohen said the same thing last week. A DUer in one of these threads made the point that they want to deal with this before missiles can reach California. This issue isn't as clean cut as Iraq. Iraq was clearly an optional war to enrich the Bush syndicate. The question is what does NK want? I think they want to keep their racket going, so war does not favor them. Building nukes likely prevents some American president from rolling them like they rolled Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)How many US military body bags? How many Japanese folks?
NK not only has nukes, it has a vast arsenal of nerve agents and gas. I assume the second an attack is detected by the evil NK dictator, every NBC weapon he has gets launched.
And then there's the conventional weapons like thousands of artillery pieces aimed at Seoul and ready to fire in seconds.
As we dwell in safety during the during the draft dodger-in-chiefs Korean adventure in search of his manhood, keep this in mind....
NK may just send some nukes or bio-chem weapons our way.
Calculating
(2,955 posts)It took a lot of casualties stopping Hitler and the Japanese in WW2, but that was no reason to just give up and say "sure, have Europe". Stopping evil isn't free. There's always a price to be paid. Ignoring evil tends to just make the problem worse in the future though. In 10 years the price of stopping little Kimmy will probably be even higher. This guy is a serious problem and he isn't going away on his own. He seems to just get bolder and crazier as time goes by.
In other news, NK is threatening to nuke us again....
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/598029/North-Korea-Nuclear-Kim-Jong-un-US-Strike-Single-Bullet-South-Japan-Foal-Eagle-USS-Carl
North Korea issues SHOCK war warning: ‘If a single bullet is fired, we WILL nuke the US’
In a statement, North Korea’s Foreign Ministry said: "The Korean People’s Army will reduce the bases of aggression and provocation to ashes with its invincible Hwasong rockets tipped with nuclear warheads and reliably defend the security of the country and its people’s happiness in case the US and the South Korean puppet forces fire even a single bullet at the territory of the DPRK."
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Has the dictator of NK attacked us? Maybe I missed it? 
These same arguments were made over Iraq and Saddam. How did that work out for us?
This is like deja vu all over again!
Calculating
(2,955 posts)NK succeeds in building proper nuclear ICBM's within about 10 years and then they try to invade SK or some other aggression? Then they'll have an actual means to get nukes to mainland US, and they'll just say "What are you gonna do about it" as they attack SK. Right now we still have some semblance of ability to remove Kimmy from power. If we give him another 10 years to develop better WMD's we'll lose that chance for good.
I know, this sounds a lot like the justification for the Iraq war, but IMHO Kimmy is MUCH more dangerous than Saddam ever was.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)We got no business going around the world knocking off people we don't like IMO.
And in this case we are talking nuclear weapons and nerve gas. Look up the effects of those weapons and be scared shitless.
It would make Iraq seem like the good old days. You think the world will thank us for millions of deaths and horrible casualties a nuclear/NBC exchange with a madman will bring?
Really?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Are you suggesting we leave Seoul vulnerable to a nuclear attack to pre-emptively attack North Korea?
We were the good guys in WW ll. If we pre-emptively attack North Korea and they nuke Seoul we will be pariahs.
Crunchy Frog
(26,579 posts)And it's not a comparable situation to Nazi Germany or imperial Japan. They were both engaged in active aggression, having conquered most of Europe and Asia. And even then, we didn't go to war until after we'd been attacked.
Kim isn't going to be invading anyone, as he knows he'd be obliterated if he tried.
Fuckface will do what he wants, but I can't see any positive utility to encouraging him, or contributing in any way to a whipping up of war fever in this country while he's squatting in the WH.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)PearliePoo2
(7,768 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)http://www.businessinsider.com/why-north-korea-is-a-real-threat-to-the-us-2016-2
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)The problem with NK is that they could utterly destroy South Korea and Japan.
We don't start shooting wars with Russia because they could destroy us.
Generally you don't want to provoke a war with an opponent when you don't want to deal with the consequences.
Yes, NK is a terrible place with a terrible leader and getting ICBMs is a scary thought. It's a tough situation for the US. I have zero trust that Rex Tillerson plus Jared Son-in-law, by themselves with no help from a destroyed State Dept, have a good shot at solving such a tough problem.
Sure wish we had a sane leader, who had American experts to consult with, right about now.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 19, 2017, 10:46 PM - Edit history (1)
What's your solution to curing cancer? It's a false dichotomy to claim that either your plan is good or I must have a solution. In this case, there are no easy solutions.
In cases where there are no good solutions, what you want is a group of smart, experienced, patriotic Americans doing their best to solve the problem. (for example: to cure cancer, you support a lot fo good smart scientists to work on the problem.) Unfortunately, the Trump admin and GOP are the opposite of that.
edit to add: this is not personally directed at you. I think it's just that this is a hard problem and I think it's likely the kakistocracy in America is going to get it wrong. To all of our detriment.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)If he did, Tillerson wouldn't be doing what he's doing.
Doreen
(11,686 posts)We are screwed. Beelzebub does not care about Washington state as he lost here and we are a blue state.
lies
(315 posts)As long as you agree to personally go to North Korea after it all settles down and explain to the parents of all the dead kids you're advocating for and explain to them why their murder was a good idea.
Exactly.
People that advocate for murdering kids are pretty awful, especially when they can "justify" it.
War with ANY country should be ONLY after they attack us or an ally.
Anything other than that is just murder.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)Sorry to disagree.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)So it was " just murder?
Do you REALLY not know why the US got into WW2?
I mean really... I've seen some ridiculous comments, but, wow.
And hey, if you'd like me to play along, ask the people of Dresden what they think about your question.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)"On September 1, 1939, Hitler invaded Poland from the west; two days later, France and Britain declared war on Germany, beginning World War II."
No US involvement.
"On September 17, Soviet troops invaded Poland from the east. Under attack from both sides, Poland fell quickly, and by early 1940 Germany and the Soviet Union had divided control over the nation, according to a secret protocol appended to the Nonaggression Pact. Stalin’s forces then moved to occupy the Baltic States (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) and defeated a resistant Finland in the Russo-Finish War."
No US involvement.
"On April 9, 1940, Germany simultaneously invaded Norway and occupied Denmark, and the war began in earnest. On May 10, German forces swept through Belgium and the Netherlands in what became known as “blitzkrieg,” or lightning war. Three days later, Hitler’s troops crossed the Meuse River and struck French forces at Sedan, located at the northern end of the Maginot Line, an elaborate chain of fortifications constructed after World War I and considered an impenetrable defensive barrier. In fact, the Germans broke through the line with their tanks and planes and continued to the rear, rendering it useless. The British Expeditionary Force (BEF) was evacuated by sea from Dunkirk in late May, while in the south French forces mounted a doomed resistance. With France on the verge of collapse, Benito Mussolini of Italy put his Pact of Steel with Hitler into action, and Italy declared war against France and Britain on June 10."
No US involvement.
"On June 14, German forces entered Paris; a new government formed by Marshal Philippe Petain (France’s hero of World War I) requested an armistice two nights later. France was subsequently divided into two zones, one under German military occupation and the other under Petain’s government, installed at Vichy. Hitler now turned his attention to Britain, which had the defensive advantage of being separated from the Continent by the English Channel. To pave the way for an amphibious invasion (dubbed Operation Sea Lion), German planes bombed Britain extensively throughout the summer of 1940, including night raids on London and other industrial centers that caused heavy civilian casualties and damage. The Royal Air Force (RAF) eventually defeated the Luftwaffe (German Air Force) in the Battle of Britain, and Hitler postponed his plans to invade. With Britain’s defensive resources pushed to the limit, Prime Minister Winston Churchill began receiving crucial aid from the U.S. under the Lend-Lease Act, passed by Congress in early 1941."
Aid and material support, but no military commitment.
"By early 1941, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria had joined the Axis, and German troops overran Yugoslavia and Greece that April. "
Still no US military involvement.
Now pay attention to what happens next;
'With Britain facing Germany in Europe, the United States was the only nation capable of combating Japanese aggression, which by late 1941 included an expansion of its ongoing war with China and the seizure of European colonial holdings in the Far East. On December 7, 1941, 360 Japanese aircraft attacked the major U.S. naval base at Pearl Harbor in Hawaii, taking the Americans completely by surprise and claiming the lives of more than 2,300 troops. The attack on Pearl Harbor served to unify American public opinion in favor of entering World War II, and on December 8 Congress declared war on Japan with only one dissenting vote. Germany and the other Axis Powers promptly declared war on the United States.
So an Axis country attacked the US, and when we declared war JUST on who attacked us, so not Germany, Germany and the rest of the Axis countries declared war on US.
We were attacked first.
http://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/world-war-ii-history
As for Dresden:
"From 13 to 15 February 1945, British (and some American) heavy bombers dropped 2,400 tons of high explosives and 1,500 tons of incendiary bombs onto the ancient cathedral city of Dresden. In just a few hours, around 25,000 to 35,000 civilians were blown up or incinerated.
Victor Gregg, a British para captured at Arnhem, was a prisoner of war in Dresden that night who was ordered to help with the clear up. In a 2014 BBC interview he recalled the hunt for survivors after the apocalyptic firestorm. In one incident, it took his team seven hours to get into a 1,000-person air-raid shelter in the Altstadt. Once inside, they found no survivors or corpses: just a green-brown liquid with bones sticking out of it. The cowering people had all melted. In areas further from the town centre there were legions of adults shrivelled to three feet in length. Children under the age of three had simply been vaporized."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/11410633/Dresden-was-a-civilian-town-with-no-military-significance.-Why-did-we-burn-its-people.html
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)" Germany never attacked the US."
lies
(315 posts)The military alliance Germany was part of did. And you KNOW that. After that Germany and the rest of that alliance declared war on us.
If you REALLY need to parse things to this degree to feel better about some bloodlust you have, fine, but to anyone NOT trying to do that, it's clear you're making a distinction without a difference.
So.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)Enlist and volunteer to lead that invasion. While you're at it, brush up on your Chinese. It'll come in handy when we go to war with them, too.
stillcool
(32,626 posts)it would take to wage a war, into providing a path to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to people in this country...I know that's ridiculous, so anyone who wants to go to war, needs to enlist and truly experience all that war has to offer. Especially the after-effects. In that case I would gladly cheer them on.
edhopper
(33,573 posts)North Korean deaths you think is acceptable with an American first strike.
Were the hundreds of thousand Iraqis we killed not enough for you?
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)but neither is an openly hostile regime that puts its entire GDP towards building a nuclear program and openly states it will use it.
We can wait.....but the problem will be 10 x more complicated in the future.
edhopper
(33,573 posts)which will result in many, many deaths, with no guarantee it will eliminate all his nukes and could set off a nuclear exchange or a global war.
Good solution there.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)edhopper
(33,573 posts)he doesn't now?
So how many Americans will you sacrifice for this crusade?
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Is we were past the point of no return 15 or so years ago when NK got nukes. One of North Korea's biggest wishes seem to be negotiating face to face with us, that cause me to feel they want to be seen as being at the big kid's table, not being ignored and lectured to at the little kid's table. I wonder what would happen if we said "Ok North Korea, we are sending an official delegation to North Korea to talk to you about how we can solve our differences". While such an act would cause a US President to be called weak, it may in fact be the only act now that makes sense. Also, talking to them in their country doesn't mean that we give in on anything.
Cosmocat
(14,563 posts)1) The US can not do anything militarily against NK without China's say so. That is the bottom line. The moment we use military force against NK without China's say so, they will consider it an act of war against them. That means it won't be like any of these middle eastern countries that we can just kick its butt and not worry about it. A military strike against NK without China say say will kick off WWIII.
Just as if China or Russia went stomping into Canada or Mexico, or if we went stomping into the western "block" countries.
2) SO ... You can't start to draw the lines in the sand with NK if you don't know that you can actually back it up. Which means you have to lean on China to get them to the point where, in back channels at the very least, they say you can. THAT is the problem here. These idiots can't think one dimensional much less three dimensional.
3) Before you go talking big on NK you have to square with China, which means an exhaustive round of discussions about it. And, in the likelyhood they don't agree to, THEN, you put them against the wall more publicly. You put them on notice, and make the case to the world that because they won't agree to allow NK to be dealt with, that they own them, that they are responsible for their actions, and they either take care of the problem themselves or you will do it. That has to become the worlds policy about this, and the close that NK moves toward being a true threat to Japan and other pacific countries, and moving toward possibly having ICBM capacities, you make China own it, so that if it does get the point that you have to intercede, they can't clam that it is an attack on their sovereignty.
Any chance 45 and his clown show can pull that off?
Calculating
(2,955 posts)Instead we have the population of the local nuthouse steering the ship through these iceberg filled waters.
Cosmocat
(14,563 posts)fucking dumbasses in this country ...
delisen
(6,042 posts)China will be involved in any solution.
karynnj
(59,501 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 19, 2017, 04:59 PM - Edit history (1)
just what Obama did. They are working with China to increase the pressure on NK to stop the provocations. Only China has real power to pressure NK via sanctions as they buy 70% of what they buy from China. Here is a January 2016 news report of Kerry visiting under somewhat similar circumstances.https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/28/world/asia/us-china-north-korea.html Here is the current NYT link for Tillerson - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/19/world/asia/rex-tillerson-xi-jinping-north-korea.html
The tone may be different. President Obama and Secretary Kerry had a far higher bar set for them by the media than Tillerson does - which oddly may respect that the media held them to higher standards because they were capable of it -- and there was not fear that they were completely over their heads.
Going back to January 2016, because it is history, we know what eventually happened. Here is the NYT from slightly over a month later. The US and China worked to toughen the sanctions on China. (Note that the NYT credits the State Department and the Tresury Secretary Lew -- rather than Kerry, who was very closely involved and had better than average relations with both Xi Jinping and Wang Yi( the FM) , having been the key person who negotiated the breakthrough US/China climate change pact. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/03/world/asia/north-korea-un-sanctions.html?_r=0 )
Let's hope that Tillerson has the success that Kerry/Lew/Obama et al had in early 2016. Clearly NK is testing the Trump administration - and it was not helpful that Trump opted to publicly call out China.
ChicagoRonin
(630 posts)Are you Korean? I am (half-Japanese to be technical).
Do you have family in Korea? I do (including my 93-year-old grandmother who survived both the Japanese occupation and the Korean War).
Any US attack on the North would result on some form of massive retaliation on the South.
My family is in Seoul. They'd be dead.
I do think North Korea needs to be confronted, but I think your answer is simplistic and dangerous, and unfortunately one of the ones Donald Trump is probably considering.
I cannot think of an effective solution, but luckily I am not responsible for that.
And I also think it is for the good of the world that neither are you.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)Nk could do that now WITHOUT any provocation.
And once they can add a nuke to a short, medium or long range missile , they will not fear any retaliation. The problem could be infinitely worse for SK ...and Japan....and the US
"I do think North Korea needs to be confronted "
So do I.... If they don't believe we would take out their program, how should we "confront" them?
And if we don't confront them now, don't bother confronting them later.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)for at least the last 15 years, but they have not tried. Exactly HOW NK getting an ICBM change that dynamic? Their immediate problem is our troops in South Korea, not San Francisco. They use an attack on the US mainland as a threat, there are no war things that we can do to get them to back away from that behavior.
matt819
(10,749 posts)We do what we've done for 20 years. It may not have been entirely successful - they did go ahead with their nuclear program - but they have not done what Tillerson et al have alluded to - they have not initiated a pre-emptive strike. And don't give me the Condi Rice nuclear cloud argument. That's just fear mongering.
The problem, of course, is that we are now the rogue state, and there's no way any other nation will join with us in any sort of multilateral approach.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)If Iraq had nuclear weapons, or even serious WMDs or a viable military, we would never have invaded them.
I realize NK's leader is crazy, but so is ours.
Don't have an answer, but I think it is a good time for some CIA activities rather than bombs and bullying. Maybe we can send Rodman over again.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Negotiating with them don't mean we have to agree to anything, but it lowers the heat on both sides and allow diplomats and military people on both sides to talk directly with each other. I hope our next President has to moral courage to talk to NK one on one, if we are alive to see the next President.
North Korea really want us to help them with growing food and sustainability. We can use our help as a wedge to have them give up their nuclear ambitions, or at least freeze them where they are. If they want to put up communications satellites, we can launch them into space for them and even offer to have one of their people on the international space station. In short, the less North Korea views us as a threat, the more mangeable and less dangerous they become.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)for years with what we spent invading and bombing them. That would have done more long-term good. We could do the same for NK, or something similarly positive. I am still concerned with irrational leadership on both sides.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)The problems inherent with giving aid- food, money, etc- to totalitarian regimes?
They're not terribly hard to figure out.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)a country that allowed slavery, interned Japanese, endorsed racism, etc. I also understand that this country still has a lot of callous, racists, white wing warmongers, and worse. Iraq, would damn sure be better off today, without our invading their country because they were a "totalitarian" Muslim country. We and the rest of the world would be better off too.
Warmongering will not change NK or Iran. I think there is a better way.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I'm saying that one, North Korea is a totalitarian shithole- no quotes needed, it's a simple statement of fact-
and two, in regards to your suggestion of aid, while in the case of somewhere like Iraq it makes sense, of a sort, because in addition to the war we ended up dumping billions of dollars worth of duffel bags full of cash there as well; the fact is, in general, when we, say, deliver food to a Somali warlord because the people in Somalia are starving, who do you think gets the food? The starving people?
No, the warlord takes it.
So it's questionable whether aid in such a situation will do much of anything except entrench the powers that be.
I marched against the Iraq war every chance I got. I'm not advocating for war against North Korea, my main response in this thread is that North Korea is a perfect example of why we want competent, intelligent, thoughtful leadership in DC- because there ARE no easy answers, and a damn shortage of good ones.
But I'm also not going to sit here pretending that somehow, even with the assholes in our country, even with our history, even with the orange clusterfuck in the oval office we have now- that there is any sort of comparison between the system we live under, and the shit that the poor people of North Korea have to endure.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)not by much. Heck, think about how undocumented workers are living right now. Sorry, it might be a lot colder in NK, but I am not sure they are any worse off than some right here.
Truthfully, I think we are debating the same thing and agree that bombing/nuking NK ain't the answer.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Maybe you should read this book.
https://www.amazon.com/Escape-Camp-14-Remarkable-Odyssey/dp/0143122916
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)that will help their people or even the dissidents.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I had members of my extended family die in other concentration camps, 3/4 of a century or so ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/17/north-korea-human-rights-abuses-united-nations
Shining a light on atrocities may not solve them, but ignoring them certainly won't.
I can't fathom why anyone should have to justify speaking out about human rights abuses. Why? I'm a human being, that's why.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 20, 2017, 06:20 AM - Edit history (1)
For 3 generations or more.
Trying to draw a parallel between their political situation and ours makes whoever is doung the comparing sound foolish... to put it generously.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)I guess in your world, Iran is next.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)No, it doesnt "sound like us at times", for fuck's sake.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/30/asia/north-korea-prison-camps-new-satellite-images/
JesterCS
(1,827 posts)Too long has NK played victim and sovereignty cards, and it hasn't changed anything one iota. Either take out the little fucker, or disable/destroy the ability to harm ANYONE outside of their borders. Sorry if that sounds R of me, but I've been hearing out NK and their shenanigans since I was a kid in the 90s.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)and we have largely played into their playbook. North Korea wants us to help them feed themselves, it would do wonders if we actually sent people to show them how to farm and fish efficiently, with the requirement that they freeze their nuclear and missile program. We could even agree to launch or let China or Russia launch satellites into space for them. Maybe if North Korea no longer saw us as a threat, we could make more progress toward peace with them.
Calculating
(2,955 posts)Their leader intentionally keeps the people starved and ignorant to maintain power. If people speak out or do anything to piss off the supreme leader he'll have 3 entire generations of their family sent to concentration camps to be tortured, experimented on and starved to death. Kimmy had his own half brother assassinated with VX nerve gas in an international airport. All media in NK is tightly controlled and tells the story that NK are the good guys, and the rest of the world is some kind of hell. Anybody caught with foreign media is subject to death and or torture. Kimmy is almost satanically evil. There can be no peace with such enemies.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)And I think the time is now.
The unfortunate thing is who would be in charge of doing it. We have the Keystone Kops headed by a guy who doesnt know anything with delusions of grandeur.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)8 times they agreed and 8 times they violated and ignored them.
As I understand they stole 1.5 billion dollars worth of food and supplies in the interim.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)We have negotiated with them.
8 agreements...8 failures.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Why are you so reluctant to do this and instead go right to war? What is in it for you or are you simply that impatient that you couldn't wait while a few weeks of talks play out?
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)no problem here.
I hope we can talk and end this thing.
I highly doubt this happen though.
At a certain point , we will have to face some really tough choices.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)That will move China off their asses.
yodermon
(6,143 posts)Stop it.
Response to yodermon (Reply #182)
roamer65 This message was self-deleted by its author.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)him fight" kind of OP?
You do understand, I hope, that the 38,000 US troops stationed there are dead and Seoul is pretty much a smoking ash heap, right? Right???
roamer65
(36,745 posts)No thanks. I'll pass.
Rustyeye77
(2,736 posts)or maybe he will eventually get weaponized nuclear weapons and tells the US "to go pound sand" when HE starts WWIII.
liberalhistorian
(20,816 posts)been a serious problem for years and that something needs to be done. I just don't trust the current administration and Congress to deal with it AT ALL, and the thought is actually quite frightening.
NBachers
(17,107 posts)A way needs to be found to stop or slow development of his missile capabilities. Here are some ways:
1. The cleanest sabotage is to virus the computers they use to design, develop, launch, or guide. Think Stuxnet in Iran.
2. The next cleanest way is through monkeywrenching or pinpoint sabotage. This means physical activity by people actually in North Korea. Who does this- NK dissidents? South Koreans? Chinese? American Special Forces? North Korean isolation, security, paranoia, and our lack of knowledge makes this probably next to impossible.
3. We can do pinpoint military attacks on strategic locations, but the response by North Korea would probably mean all hell would break loose. If it was done without China's consent, it would be even worse. This really isn't much of an option either.
4. Try to get Un eliminated in a way that looks like a health issue. Is his sister a possible "opening up" prospect, if she replaced him? A coherent plan would need to be in place to prevent a worsening-power vacuum disintegration like we've seen in the Middle East.
4. An alliance of nations in the neighborhood - China, Japan, South Korea, Philippines, whoever. Discussions on how to apply the carrot or the stick approach. Connections with other nations with intelligence and procedural experience.
5. China, as NK's neighbor and trading partner, would have to be the most significant partner. They have the most influence in North Korea. No operations can be conducted without China's consent or participation.
6. During the Clinton Administration, we saw slight softening of relations with North Korea due to our massive food shipments during their famine. China, South Korea, and many other nations participated, through the United Nations. George Bush cut way back on our food-aid, and an opportunity may have been lost. Food & trade negotiations may or may not be possible with Un. China, once again, would have to be the primary initiator and negotiator with North Korea. Trump & Co.'s massive assholeness is sabotaging this for the world. They are intentionally eliminating options so they can have their Fun War!
The woman I know was born before the Cultural Revolution, and felt the full brunt of it's retribution. She sees North Korea as what China was in her past. She says that Chinese leadership that opened China economically and socially have enabled the transformation we see there. She believes that, if similar leadership can be moved up in North Korea, they could have a similar outcome. Without the bombs.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Response to Rustyeye77 (Original post)
GP6971 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Azathoth
(4,607 posts)for their support of DPRK. But, like every other promise that Drumpf made, it won't, because who knew that foreign policy could be so complicated, amiright?
That said, the DPRK is one of the few nations on earth where diplomacy simply will not resolve anything and any administration that convinces itself otherwise is dangerously self-deluded. Trump won't do a single thing to fix the problem, but at least he won't be so enamored of diplomacy that he will think NSC negotiators are going to solve it for him.
Rhiannon12866
(205,233 posts)After North Korea announced its withdrawal from the IAEA in June of 1994, Jimmy Carter went in as our negotiator. He met with President Kim Il Sung (Kim Jong Il's father) and was the first person to cross the DMZ in 43 years. Their talks went well, since President Carter treated him with respect - and he was treated with respect because of his knowledge and experience with nuclear engineering. Not only did Kim Il Sung agree to freeze their nuclear program and resume talks with the US - a dialog that continued with Secretary of State Madeleine Albright - but that agreement established a three-stage process for the elimination of North Korea’s nuclear weapons program. In return, the United States promised to move toward normalized economic and diplomatic relations and agreed to provide assistance with the construction of proliferation-resistant LWRs to replace North Korea’s graphite-moderated reactors.
Kim Il Sung died soon after that meeting, but his son agreed to abide by that agreement which held through Clinton's term as long as the US continued the "respect" that Jimmy Carter had promised. But there was a new tone after George W Bush* took office and relations began falling apart - culminating in Bush*'s "axis of evil" comments in 2002.
Negotiations with volatile regimes like this are incredibly sensitive - something President Carter knew and understood. And an experienced SOS like Madeleine Albright was certainly aware of. But now we have an administration that has managed to insult and alienate even our oldest and closest allies. I fear for our future - and the future of the world - as long as we're being represented by those without diplomacy, knowledge and a sense of history.
Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)Humility is #1 with me when it comes to POTUS's. 
Rhiannon12866
(205,233 posts)We could use a little more of all of those right now. 
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Intelligent, thoughtful and competent people making the decisions in DC.
I leave it to the reader to decide if the current crowd qualifies.
There are no easy answers, but nothing should be done rashly. The stakes are too high.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)the portion of the Earth suffering under the rule of the Kim family in the North would likely be a sliver of what it is, today. If anything.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)Causing a massive war in Asia just to prevent a possible future attack on the US however is certainly not a reasonable response.
Calculating
(2,955 posts)Then they'll just start doing whatever they want under the threat of nuclear war if we do anything to stop them.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)Sometimes there just isn't an acceptable response scenario. As for NK doing 'whatever they want', what is it we think they're actually going to do?
Orrex
(63,203 posts)Anything less paranoid and reactionary would be tantamount to suicide!
DFW
(54,358 posts)They do NOT want a large shooting war on their back doorstep, and most definitely not a nuclear one. I think if Kim come close--in THEIR eyes-- to launching a missile (tipped with whatever) attack on North America, he would disappear in a Chinese cloud of dust before he gets the chance to give the order. I suspect there are moles loyal to China a LOT closer to him (and more of them) than he could ever imagine.
MrScorpio
(73,630 posts)Everything you've suggested would make things much worse there.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)No matter how desirable the removal of NK nukes, any purely military action is going to trigger horrific casulaties.
Demsrule86
(68,552 posts)and it never works.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)SJMULE
(193 posts)Drumpf will just piss of the Chinese who will be less likely to help us. Somehow we need a leader who can negotiate with the Chinese to get them to understand that a nuclear winter in the Peninsula is bad for business.