General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHow does a person respond to this?
My cousin, trump supporter, commented on a comment of mine re; Medicare for all, single payer...
"Americans will never have equal health care for all for ONE reason. End of life care. Until people realize and are willing to accept it is not worth spending a million dollars treating a 70 year old person, health care will NEVER be affordable as a one payer system. Period."
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)It's a two word response ending in "you".
liberalmuse
(18,672 posts)One day it's 70 year olds, the next it's the disabled, then it's sick children. When you think you have the right to put a price on a human life, you have no humanity. I'm so sorry this person is your cousin.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,673 posts)trof
(54,256 posts)Charles Bukowski
(1,132 posts)Not sure how your cousin would take that, but it's the truth.
GReedDiamond
(5,311 posts)...death panels, do ya?"
Because that's what it sounds like, to me.
chillfactor
(7,574 posts)one of those that is "not worth a million dollars treating a 70 year old person." LIFE is worth more that a million dollars. I am grateful for my Medicare and if the recons threaten my coverage, I will be at a town hall screaming my head off! I enjoy my life and the butt-head who said that is a despicable asshat!
JI7
(89,247 posts)Caliman73
(11,730 posts)Other countries have people over 70 in them like Germany, France, England, Switzerland, Denmark, etc... and they all receive end of life care. We are not asking for "equal" care for all. We are demanding adequate care for all with the costs spread out over society based on ability to pay. Rich people will always be able to access better care for elective services. They can buy that. We can certainly pay for very good basic care services for everyone without destroying society except for ONE thing. Fools like your cousin don't care about others.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)just don't spend any money to treat the old folks, the disabled, people with chronic health problems, etc., etc. They really do believe that. They heard it on Fox News, or on the radio, or read it in an e-mail, or someone told them it happened to somebody, so it must be true.
Gabi Hayes
(28,795 posts)cos dem
(903 posts)This includes how to make it sustainable, affordable, and how to handle end-of-life.
onecaliberal
(32,822 posts)regnaD kciN
(26,044 posts)MyOwnPeace
(16,925 posts)I was gonna' say "Republicans."
Same difference!
pangaia
(24,324 posts)liquid diamond
(1,917 posts)are multi-billion dollar establishments. They will not give up their financial interests to provide universal healthcare. It's no use comparing this country to others on this issue.
samnsara
(17,616 posts)HoosierDebbie
(290 posts)When we can spend multiple millions on a 70 year old playing golf at his club and on his kids skiing in Aspen? And his wife and kid being protected in New York City?
Old Terp
(464 posts)did all the leaf blowing, bulb planting, plant cleanup and cutting back, and so forth. My much younger lawn mower is impressed on how much I did. Your cousin should watch out for 70 year old people. I can barely keep up with my 85 year old friend who still mows her lawn. Hillary's girls are strong and are still here and supporting her goals. We plan to die many years later at a party with a glass of wine in our hand.
Squinch
(50,948 posts)often a huge percentage of the cost of their lifetime care. Often it has nothing to do with the patient him or herself. Often it has more to do with hospital protocols or a family's inability to let go of a dying relative.
Though I consider 70 to be very young, and I think it IS worth a million to treat a 70 year old who will have quality of life after the treatment, I do think there needs to be a completely different approach to end of life care. There is no reason to throw every possible treatment at an obviously dying patient, causing them suffering and terror in their last days.
I DO think there should be end of life counseling and end of life consultants to prevent the cruelty the medical community often inflicts on the dying.
So I think there is a gram of sense in what your relative is saying.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Squinch
(50,948 posts)beaglelover
(3,466 posts)GitRDun
(1,846 posts)On one of my visits he told me he was on his way to see more than 10 patients at the hospital who were being kept alive by family members who could not let go. He said none of them was going to live due to their illnesses but their family members could not let go. The worst part he said, was that none of those family members came to visit their dying relatives.
I don't know how prevalent this is, but I don't think we should dismiss a discussion out of hand as cruel. I experienced the tension in these moments in my own family....this is a real issue.
I hope we can have a conversation about this without impugning people's motives.
Squinch
(50,948 posts)she agreed to but which anyone could see she was too weak to survive. But as soon as she consented to the surgery, her written and legal healthcare directives were thrown out the window because the hospital's post-op protocol takes precedence. For a month, they kept testing and prodding and poking at her, though she clearly had at least three post-op strokes and could not survive off a respirator.
We wanted to put her out of her misery, but the hospital would not let us take her to hospice. They, a major and highly respected NY hospital, said we were not allowed to take her off the respirator to transport her to hospice from the ICU. If we took her off the respirator she was likely to die and then they would have to statistically report her as a surgical failure. Finally we made them find us a portable respirator so that we could get her out of there and off the protocol and into the hospice where we could get her off the respirator.
It was a surreal catch 22 and took every dignity out of the end of her life.
My aunt, on the other hand, came to a point where the inevitable was obvious. She stopped taking her meds and died in her living room while having her "afternoon tea" which consisted of a glass of her favorite single malt scotch with her friend.
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)Three doctors in a group said there was no hope. He had pancreatitus.
After two had left one came back and said there was some hope.
My brothers and I gave that doctor no credibility as he would not disagree in front of his colleagues.
My mom let treatment keep going for a few days until my father refused to see her. The kids signed the order to stop treatment in the end.
I'm sure most of us have stories about end of life. I am sure just that last few days was $250,000 that should not have been spent, in my fathers mind...he wanted to go.
We should deal with these issues as a part of any reform. I am sure my father would rather the money spent on his last few days go to caring for someone in need that wasn't terminal. Dying is a part of living.
Squinch
(50,948 posts)That said, when the time comes, I wonder if I will be as brave as my aunt and be able to say, "enough. It's time."
I hope so. But she was much more bad-ass than I am.
Crunchy Frog
(26,579 posts)Especially one who's making blanket statements about a whole demographic group.
I don't want that guy sitting on my death panel.
lisa58
(5,755 posts)It's not an insurable risk - fire is - auto is - professional liability is. Life is underwritten according to your health at the age purchased. Everyone is going to need healthcare...so Medicare for all with the option of purchasing different levels of 'premium coverage' is the most effective version of the future of healthcare.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)caroldansen
(725 posts)leave you on the curb when your seventy. Is that what you want. We can't. We're democrats and we don't treat people like that. We have compassion. One of the very many things
republicans lack.
mnhtnbb
(31,382 posts)My husband--an MD--has been a member of PNHP for years and also an advocate of a single payer system.
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/what-is-single-payer
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single-payer-faq
And lots of info to use in responding to right wing propaganda. And that's really what your cousin is offering you. Republicans and right wingers want to shoot down single payer because it takes the profit motive out of providing health care. It makes health care accessible to everyone, not rationed by income level. You have to remember that Republicans are all about money. That's how they value the worth of a person.
Maybe one way to respond would be to put it right back in your cousin's face and ask "So, you're advocating putting elderly people out on an ice floe to let them die?" Or, only people with money get to decide to extend their lives and not be shipped off to the ice floe?
mountain grammy
(26,619 posts)I've seen that site before, but this time I bookmarked it.
democrank
(11,092 posts)Medicare for all.
PoiBoy
(1,542 posts)If so, I would imagine that they'll be pushing 70 sooner rather than later...
Tell him/her that the next time they have dinner together to look his/her mom in the eyes and tell her.. to her face.. that he/she doesn't think spending any amount of money on her and dad's upcoming end of life care is worth it..
If he/she can do that, then he/she is truly deplorable...
IMO all life is precious... some people just handle it better than others...
MFM008
(19,804 posts)When your young .
Life and age will bitch slap him sensible
Then it will be woohhh is me.
Greywing
(1,124 posts)probably didn't use it much and now deserves to have it available at the end of life. Further more most people don't die from a long illness but pass away rather quickly (sometimes unexpectedly). There is a reason insurance entered into the business of health - it is highly profitable.
LakeArenal
(28,817 posts)ismnotwasm
(41,976 posts)With little chance to live. Or the follow up for bone marrow transplants that don't quite take. Or the many surgeries for chronic illnesses like ulcerative colitis. Or the expensive meds for progressive multiple sclerosis.
How does your cousin value people? In my field, we've transplanted kidneys in people who are developmentally delayed and require lifetime care. Is that worth it?
We care for prisoners, some who need life saving surgeries---that Ok with him? Or should they just die in prison?
And while the majority of gastric bypass surgeries these days don't have complication there remain those that do. And those complications are dire, expensive and can last a long time. Shall we shame these people for trying to change and save their lives?
How about junkies with abscesses in their arms and legs and buttocks with a case of vegetative endocarditis? Should we give them long term anti-biotics and cardiac support, or just let them die?
How about people born with certain "syndromes"--ones that almost guarantee disability and organ disfunction as some point in their lives--do they get to live?
Your cousin isn't thinking clearly, or knows little of the ways people suffer. Ask him/her if he thinks there should be some sort of health care lotto for the underserved and chronically ill and you know you have someone who would willingly walk into dystopia.
Crunchy Frog
(26,579 posts)are creeping up into the 80s, and their health care expenses are way less than ours are.
Anyway, 70 year olds are already covered under a single payer system here. Adding younger and healthier people to Medicare would lower the per capita costs.
We need to study how they manage it in the civilized world.
Juliusseizure
(562 posts)He's the cousin with alternative facts.
The top ten healthcare systems in the world are all first world countries with either single payer or hybrid systems where the government pays the substantial portion (~75%) of costs.
The primary obstacle in the US is political corruption. For profit healthcare and pharmaceutical companies made a half a trillion in profit last year. Pharmaceuticals have an average 43% profit margin, the largest of any industry. They have a stranglehold on congress that prevents any system that threatens those profits (Obamacare included).
[link:https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2017-01-11/10-countries-with-the-most-well-developed-public-health-care-systems-ranked-by-perception|
MyOwnPeace
(16,925 posts)spend the money to keep our elders alive than to spend billions to bomb people to death.
"The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind.............."
whathehell
(29,067 posts)NanceGreggs
(27,813 posts)... where we have universal healthcare. ALL citizens get full care, regardless of age.
The system not only works - it works extremely well.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)does Canada.
The majority of health care expenditures are in the last year of life and sometimes providers throw too much at treatments not likely to help and not helping sick people's quality of remaining life.
Here's a few short articles on how the British ration and what some would call their death panel.
https://www.pri.org/stories/2010-12-17/how-uk-rations-health-care
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/08/nhs-rationing-denying-patients-care-cash-crisis-survery-doctors
Truth is, we are going to have to make some tough decisions to provide an affordable system and one that wrings unconscionable profits out of the system. No one wants to talk about it. And I'm no 20 year old isolated from rationing.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)That phrase is generally used in connection with hospice or other care for the terminally ill.
H2O Man
(73,534 posts)Heartstrings
(7,349 posts)as he seems relentless in being combative, to the point of arguing just for the sake of arguing...
His parents, my aunt and uncle are 67 and 73 respectively....so not sure why he feels this "blanket" statement is the ONE area that determines everything...considering his parents ages and the fact his mother was an RN for 30 years and advocates for patients rights to make their own end of life decisions....it's mind boggling.
Can't pick your relatives....
politicat
(9,808 posts)My great-grandparents, great-uncle, step-father and grandmother have all had long, extended end-of-lives in the last few years. They're a pretty good spectrum of desires and needs, and all were on the American equivalent of single-payer (Medicare).
My great-grandmother was the first to go. I've done a retrospective on her medical records, and she was massively misdiagnosed multiple times over her lifetime. Eventually all of the misdiagnoses compounded into kidney failure that caused cardiac issues (or maybe the other way round). She was a fighter, and wanted every single day of life she could have, so did two years of dialysis and heart meds until it didn't work. Nobody ever told her she was done, or to stop trying, or tried to ease her into hospice against her will.
My great-uncle went a few years later, of a shorter illness. He'd been in indifferent health for a couple years, but the last illness was a sharp decline. He had a living will that refused artificial ventilation, nutrition, and hydration. His children followed his wishes, but he never needed any of the three. His medical staff offered and wanted to start significant intervention options, without any discussion of hospice. My uncle just died faster than they could operate.
My great-grandfather became deeply apathetic after the deaths of his son and wife. He didn't want to outlive them, but did, by several years. He spent two years under hospice care, getting everything he needed for his comfort, and no interventions to extend his life. He died comfortably, at an extremely advanced age, at home.
My mother's second husband got his cancer diagnosis three days after he turned in his Medicare paperwork. He was in denial about his condition from day one until the day he died -- he was convinced he was going to beat stage IV. His medical staff did include hospice, but if he wanted a treatment, even a futile treatment, he got it. They bankrupted themselves on experimental and alternative treatments, and nobody ever told him to stop or tried to convince him to make the most of the time he had left.
My grandmother wore herself out caring for my great-grandparents and her long-term gentleman, as well as her own career. She was a geriatrics nurse, and had assembled for herself an end-of-life kit* because she didn't want to linger at all. She wrote the most binding living will that was possible when she wrote it, and updated it to the extent her very red, Evangelical state would allow. She had her first stroke in public, and it appears that the hospital where she was taken either a) lost her filed living will and DNR, or ignored it (Catholic). She was also badly underdiagnosed, and was released before the extent of the damage was clear. She didn't use the kit in the six months she was on her own. I don't know why she didn't, but I assume she forgot, or didn't think she was ready yet, or didn't want to be found, or a combination. When her condition got worse, she ended up in care because she lived 1000 miles from her MPOA (me) or any other family. I spent the next two years as her advocate, interpreting both her written instructions and the ones she was able to make while she still had speech, and those instructions were consistently, keep me comfortable, let me do as much as I can for myself, no interventions except for comfort. Which was an often monthly or weekly fight. She refused antibiotics (the nurse part of her brain never failed; she could identify most pills at 10 paces); I had to back her up. She didn't want nebulizers. She hated her walker and her wheelchair; I fought for PT when that was possible and took her anger when she had no choice. In her last months, her brain was more than half dead, due to massively blocked arteries. Her cardiologist really wanted to put in shunts, despite an 80% chance she'd die on the table and 0% chance she'd recover enough to even go back to assisted living. By then, Gran was mostly aphasic, and could usually only get 2 words at a time. But those two words were "No surgery." I followed her wishes. We signed the hospice paperwork about an hour before she died; she was fine on the Monday before Christmas, declined rapidly on Christmas morning and died on Boxing Day.
Four of the five died in red states. (I moved my grandmother to me, because I couldn't go to her, and I didn't know she'd made me responsible until it was way too late to change her wishes, and I wanted her in a state with better care.) I don't worry about death panels at all. I worry about people not being allowed to die, because a living patient is a profit center, and there are a lot of hospitals and doctors who look at their balance sheet rather than their patients' needs and desires.
*She was a teetotaler, but I found the kit when I cleaned out her house. A bottle of opiates, never used, in her name; a bottle of benzodiazepines, never used, in her name, from a different date and doctor; a bottle of vodka into which she'd dissolved candy (I think Jolly Ranchers - it was bright red and sour cherry, her favorite). They were all together, bound in a rubber band. She knew what she was doing.
LakeArenal
(28,817 posts)When he was 88 he had a third heart attack requiring two open heart surgeries. My tough old New England pop, lived on. Walked up the two flights to his apartment. Living on his own, driving his car to the grocery stores and doctors. When his eye sight started to go at 91 he moved into assisted living. Not a nursing home. My dad had all his wits about him, was funny and smart and loved me like the dickens. He died suddenly after complications from another surgery, a hernia surgery...
Tell me again how I should have accept it wasn't worth that money to keep that fine man alive..
Heartstrings
(7,349 posts)TexasBushwhacker
(20,173 posts)BUT I knew my mother's wishes, one of which was to never put a feeding tube into her. She had breast cancer that spread to her bones and brain. She fought a long hard fight for 9 years. At the end of 9 years, the chemo was no longer working and there were no other options. To her oncologist's surprise, she asked for hospice care. She was 2 month's shy of her 70th birthday when she died, without a feeding tube.
My father was 75, a smoker, and had a history of strokes and atrial fibrillation. Had he discussed his final wishes with his second wife? No! So when he had a massive stroke, she had to make all the decisions. There was one honest doctor who told her Daddy would never leave the hospital. She called him Dr. Doom.
But other doctors said maybe a pacemaker would help. So they put that in. He had a NG tube for feeding, but got aspiration pneumonia, so they installed a G tube. They tried to turf him to a rehab facility (ha!) but they refused to take him so he was sent to a nursing home where he got a bedsore on his tailbone. So then it was back to the hospital for debridement surgery and then transferred to the ICU. And he just got weaker and weaker. Bedsore got bigger, kidneys started to fail. Tracheostomy for a ventilator. Finally, 4 1/2 months after the stroke, he died in the hospital, just like Dr. Doom said.
Would he have wanted all these extraordinary measures? I have no idea. But here's what I think. I think that when you enroll in Medicare you should be required to fill out a Living Will and a medical power of attorney, because once you have Medicare, you will have it until you die. So expecting people to make some decisions about their end of life care is fair.
Dyedinthewoolliberal
(15,566 posts)many conservatives often go to the worst possible scenario with every idea and imagine that is how it will be. It's like the welfare or unemployment concept. They are afraid if we change the rules and make those things easier to access 'everyone' will want to do that. It's irrational thinking............
ChoppinBroccoli
(3,784 posts).................it won't cost anywhere NEAR a million dollars to treat ANYONE, 70 years old or otherwise.
Do these people not realize that the for-profit healthcare industry CAUSES high medical prices? High prices are not the result of anything other than the greed of the people running the for-profit healthcare industry. Put them out of business and the cost of healthcare will drop dramatically. Just ask any other industrialized country in the world.
Heartstrings
(7,349 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)just by virtue of having multiple payers. Yes end of life care is something we as a society need to have real discussions around. Because at some point there is a cost/benefit ratio that isn't sustainable.
To take it to an absurd extreme, is it worth a million dollars to give somebody another hour of life? What quality of life is given by that theoretical treatment? There is a line for everybody that is different.
ck4829
(35,045 posts)And he cost this country more than any single person on welfare has by an astronomical amount.
Sculpin Beauregard
(1,046 posts)that every other first world country in the world manages it. Also, US healthcare is artificially high. It doesn't need to be that way, but, you see, that interferes with obscene amounts of profit.
Tell him Canada manages it for everyone, at a lower cost. Tell him you heard this first hand, from an actual Canadian.
vlyons
(10,252 posts)Single-payer health care seems to be working ok in countries all over the world and for far less per person than what we pay in the US. How is that possible? For starters, for-profit insurance companies aren't in charge of health care, so they can't skim 20% to 30% of customer premiums into their own pockets and executive bonuses. US citizens average $900 per person a year paid to the administration costs of insurance companies. 2ndly, unlike the US, single payer healthcare countries negotiate for lower wholesale drug prices. Our wonderful Republican congress back in the GWBush days, passed a law forbidding medicaid to negotiate for lower drug prices. So we pay far more for prescription drugs than say our neighbor Canada. Thirdly, end of life care is not the most expensive form of healthcare. There are few surgeries. Mostly just nursing expenses. Then show your cousin a few facts. Show him what the World Health Oraganization has to say about healthcare costs per person by country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita
It's time for all of us to learn a few facts so we can talk to our friends and neighbors about a single-payer healthcare system.
Heartstrings
(7,349 posts)GoCubsGo
(32,079 posts)People there are able to take care of their health issues in the early stages, when they're less likely to die or be incapacitated by them. All because they don't fear bankruptcy.
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)is in your genes
Relative is a half baked argument vampire squid
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)And it IS something we have to consider in any universal coverage system. I should say chronic major disease in late life. We need to encourage planning fo such circumstance.
Vinca
(50,261 posts)He's not to me, but he probably is to your cousin. So why should Trump be saved, but someone's Grandma living on social security shouldn't? It's not a money issue, it's a moral issue.
Dem2
(8,168 posts)How freaking ironic!