Dear Allies: Use WHATEVER WORKS.

[LaydeeBug]

Holy fucking Lord Jesus motherfucking Christ on a cracked up fucking pogo stick: These. are. unprecedented. times. We are the party that supports gay rights. They want to ship gays off to Chechnya. So we when say, "Why is Donald Trump all over Vladmir Putin's dick" or "the best use of Donald Trump's mouth is as Vladmir Putin's cock holster", it isn't because anyone is trying to bother gays, and you know it. It bothers *them*, and *we* know that, too.

Saying either one of those things is a far fucking cry from alienating the gay community. Pretending it does gaslights this whole situation. Fuck that. I am a *strong* supporter of the gay community, of gay rights...always have been. No one is going to tell this hag that shit. *Nope* And pretending that should be our focus, OR THAT WE HAVE TO REMOVE THAT LANGUAGE FROM OUR ARSENAL TO APPEASE ANYONE IS BULLSHIT. Use WHATEVER WORKS.

When someone gets referenced as a "bitch", it is not always an insult to women. Pretending that it is, or THAT WE HAVE TO REMOVE THAT LANGUAGE FROM OUR ARSENAL IS GASLIGHTING. Use WHATEVER WORKS.

I am serious right fucking now, this is some BULLSHIT right here. When they go low, DON'T BACK DOWN. Don't *cater* your outrage to appease someone else's spite invective...there is a *politics* to that kind of censorship, and we all fucking well know it.

When they go low, DON'T BACK DOWN.

WHEN THEY GO LOW, DON'T BACK DOWN.

WHEN THEY GO LOW, DON'T BACK DOWN.

*That* is how we undo the coup.

[aikoaiko]

1. The old ends justifies the means argument.

Meh.

[LaydeeBug]

2. You can't claim the moral high ground while we're on a sinking ship...

You have to remove the captain and change the course.

Feathers might get ruffled, because the majority of this will be the typewritten word.

[moriah]

6. The only people I care about potentially offending ARE my allies.

I thought it was perfect BECAUSE of Putin and Trump's avowed anti-gay crap, and the poutrage from those who just wish they could use the insult themselves (literally, it was not "that is bad" but "If someone said that word on Fox...&quot has me feeling much shadenfreude.

But I don't want to offend people *here* I care about, and I get why it is that it's a sensitive subject. Society has made the metaphor of having a penis in your mouth to mean that you're weak, dominated, etc. I'd rather the idea of reclaiming it, but I can only reclaim words used against me, it's up to others to decide if they want to reclaim that one.

[LaydeeBug]

8. The point is, since we're *allies* and all, not to be offended...

Because we need to fight THEM, and not each other on HOW to fight them.

Use WHATEVER WORKS.

[moriah]

15. I just can't tell someone else not to be offended, ya know?

I haven't had that insult used to demean me. I can't speak from that experience.

Hasn't stopped me from sharing the brilliance of the rest of Colbert's great rant. Because it does fight the common enemy.

[LaydeeBug]

48. I get it, but the same coin says, they shouldn't tell us either. nt

[moriah]

52. Actually, as allies, I thought our job was to listen and act accordingly.

Of course, not everyone even who HAS had that insult and other tropes thrown at them is going to have the same opinion of the term in general usage, or as Colbert used it.

All I know is DUers have expressed discomfort and so while I will share the righteous rant, I won't specifically point out that part when I'm highlighting the other great content. Best I can do.

[LaydeeBug]

98. You make a lot of assumptions and presumptions on that pitard.

[Ms. Toad]

165. Thank you for getting it. n/t

[pnwmom]

81. You are saying that dehumanizing gay people -- weaponizing them -- is okay if it works.

And that's despicable.

[LaydeeBug]

83. *nope*

[pnwmom]

86. That's exactly what you said. It's okay if it works as an insult to DT/Putin,

regardless of the effect on gay people.

[LaydeeBug]

88. No. it isn't.

[KingCharlemagne]

44. The capitalist ship is going down and you think changing the captain

of the vessel will fix matters?

Give me a friggin' break.

[MFM008]

130. Some time they do

......

[TheFrenchRazor]

191. pretty much. some people will dump morality at the slightest excuse; it tells you a lot about a per

a lot about a person when they do that.

[RedWedge]

3. There's plenty of strong, profane and vulgar language that doesn't demean ourselves.

Why you'd want to use language that does is beyond me.

[LaydeeBug]

5. ...'that doesn't deman ourselves'? Is this the royal 'we'?

[RedWedge]

7. No.

[LaydeeBug]

9. Awesome. It's probably best to realize that you aren't the arbiter of 'demeaning', then

Since BOTH gay references in my OP are not demeaning at all.

[RedWedge]

11. Has anyone told you that they are?

[LaydeeBug]

13. Yes. The one who told me to use 'vulgar languange not demaning to ourselves'. nt

[RedWedge]

14. Am I the only one?

[LaydeeBug]

18. Yes.

[RedWedge]

50. Except for the others on this thread?

[pnwmom]

56. No, you are not the only one. This is infuriating, the more it goes on. nt

[RedWedge]

57. I can't figure out why the OP is so bent on being able to use certain terms, even when

others say it hurts. Like...way to show you won't be bossed around? That will really stick it to the GOP? I guess?

[pnwmom]

65. I do not know why she is willing to sacrifice a group of allies. It's appalling. n/t

[RedWedge]

67. Agreed.

[cwydro]

74. Sad, but I don't find it surprising.

Not with this particular poster.

[whathehell]

121. Yeah..

It's not a bright strategy.

[pnwmom]

28. But they are being USED in an effort to demean (presumably) straight people.

And that contributes to a homophobic cultural atmosphere.

[LaydeeBug]

33. *nope*...stop making presumptions when they're making ATTACKS.

when they go low, you don't back down, and you *certainly* don't remove weapons from your arsenal

ANY of them.

This is undeniably stupid, and it hamstrings us.

*nope*

In fact, I implore my gays to give us fresh ammunition because "suck a golf ball through a garden hose" is dated by now, and I'm sure there's something more fresh out there.

But ***FUCK*** that "don't say "he's on his dick" or say "they're bitching and moaning" because that might offend people in our community.

FUCK THAT ALL DAY LONG. PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO IMPOSE THAT SHIT ARE DIVISIVE AND GASLIGHTING US. FUCK THOSE MOTHERFUCKERS. I AM NOT EVEN KIDDING. FUCK ***ANYBODY*** WHO TRIES TO FIGHT *US* WHILE WE'RE FIGHTING *THEM*. THEY ARE ONLY HELPING TRUMP CHUMPS. SHIT, THEY COULD EVEN BE RUSSIAN. WHO KNOWS.

I know this: *they* have gone so low, that I will NOT back down. If GOPee party people get 'outted' because some of those motherfuckers are so far in the closet they're in Narnia, TOUGH FUCKING SHIT. I won't even be sorry... and know that outting someone in the closet is a huge no. Wanna know why I dpn't give a shit...like I won't even be sorry...TREASON IS WORSE.

Fuck that.

all day long.

USE WHATEVER WORKS. Call them bitches, 'mo's, ho's, motherfuckers, assholes, I don't give a flying rat's ass, but best BELIEVE anyone trying to hamstring you on this issue wants you to bring a pen to a gun fight.

FUCK THAT.

[pnwmom]

106. "I implore my gays." This sounds like DT talking about "my blacks."

You don't own gay people. They are not yours to weaponize against DT.

[cwydro]

158. "My gays"???

Are you for real?

[greytdemocrat]

211. Apparently...

Yes.

[cwydro]

212. Yikes.

Reminds me of someone else's similar quote during the campaigns...

[Caliman73]

160. How is not using certain insults hamstringing anyone?

I am not getting it. Saying "Donald Trump is gay and sucks cock" is insulting to him, yes. He would probably be very offended by hearing or seeing that. HOWEVER you ask yourself WHY? Because to him and many other people, being gay is bad and sucking cock is about the worst thing a non-gay man can do. So who are you insulting? Well, Donald Trump yes, but you are doing so by saying that he is gay. Why is that an insult? You are saying that sucking cock is bad. Why? Is it? Is it bad when men do it to other men only? Is it bad when women do it? Where does the insult come from? What makes "gay" a bad word?

That is what you need to think about.

"Not backing down" does not mean that we act just as shitty as they do. It means we fight.

Have you ever been in a physical fight? Like a real fist/kicking, beating with a stick type fight? You can defend yourself and stop your opponent without being a dirtbag. You can knock someone out without calling them slurs or demeaning them.

Also, gaslighting is when a person tries to make another person doubt their reality. I do not see how pointing out that using "gay" as an insult is demeaning to gay people would be gaslighting. Can you explain that?

[cwydro]

167. Gaslighting seems to be this poster's go-to phrase.

Boring.

And used wrongly most often.

[Caliman73]

173. Yes I've seen it used a few times now.

I like having discussions but I think that in order to do that, you have to be on somewhat of the same page as to what terms mean, which I why I ask questions and ask people to explain what they mean.

I understand the passion and sense of urgency that people have. There is a sense that things are spinning out of control and some people see these issues about language as distraction, but language is shaped by and shapes thoughts, attitudes, and behaviors. I said in another thread, which is the thread that sparked this thread, that when I was young, I used to use words like, "gay" and "retarded" as insults, then I started to figure out that the insult is actually supposed to be the comparison of the individual you are insulting with the condition of being gay or having an intellectual disability. Having friends who are gay and having worked with people who have intellectual disabilities, I see now that using their human condition, their being, as an insult is damaging and that it can certainly lead us to become like these Republican and conservative leaders and many followers who do not even see gay people, black people, disabled people, other minorities, or women as full human beings. So, it is a big issue.

[pnwmom]

177. I once had a young relative,

a teenager in a red state, use the expression "that's so gay" -- referring to something negative.

When i told her that that expression was hurtful, her first reaction was to say that of course she wasn't talking about gay people. But as I explained, she quickly understood -- and mentioned that her best friend's brother was gay. She never would have purposely said something that might hurt him.

That was that. She eliminated the phrase from her vocabulary. I'm disappointed to see adults here in blue DU who are much more resistant than she was to listening to reason, and caring about people's feelings.

[Caliman73]

184. True

Which is why I always ask, "What is the insult you are trying to communicate with that word or phrase?"

[whathehell]

123. Yeah..

and maybe we might actually find demeaning straight people as important as demeaning gays? Just a wild assumption.

[mythology]

21. Likewise you aren't the arbiter of how other people feel

You repeatedly insult anybody who has the temerity to disagree with you and yet in your arrogance, you don't even begin to notice the irony of you claiming no one is the arbiter of the meaning of a word.

[LaydeeBug]

22. The only irony is that I never tried to arbitrate how *anyone* feels

as Eleanor Roosevelt said, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent".

"Have the temerity to disagree with me?" LOL, oh, you're a SCREAM!

False equivalence much?

[kcr]

49. Actually, it seems to me that's exactly what you're doing.

And about that awful quote. For one thing, as with a lot of quotes floating around, it isn't correct. What she actually said was, "A snub is the effort of a person who feels superior to make someone else feel inferior. To do so, he has to find someone who can be made to feel inferior." It was in response to someone asking her how she felt about some controversy in the Roosevelt administration. In context it was a subtle jab at the snubber, not the snubee. She was basically calling the snubber out while telling them their nonsense didn't work. It was not the bullying victim blaming quote that it was twisted into.

[LaydeeBug]

51. It can SEEM any way you want, but the TRUTH is something else. No weapons removed from

our arsenal during these unprecedented times.

(and I am not wrong on the Roosevelt quote either, but I appreciate your attempt to marginalize me)

http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/04/30/no-one-inferior/

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/e/eleanorroo161321.html

https://simple.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eleanor_Roosevelt

[kcr]

54. If there were no other weapons available, ok.

But a weapon that also damages you while you use it might not be the best choice. Hurting allies in order to hurt enemies makes no sense.

And that first link backs my point about the quote being wrong.

[LaydeeBug]

111. There is no link in your first link.

[pnwmom]

66. It isn't morally justified to weaponize other people against their will

and that's what you are doing here.

You are treating gay people as a group to weaponize against DT/Putin -- and that's just as wrong as when right-wingers hurl those slurs at gay people.

You can't say it's wrong for Republicans and Russians to hurt gay people while you are doing it with every word coming out of your mouth.

[LaydeeBug]

78. You don't get to claim the moral high ground while you're standing in quick sand

And that's NOT what I am doing here.

I am treating WORDS as weapons, not gay people. You think that's yours to *assign* to me. I can assure you, it is not.

Because your insistence on fighting *this* HELPS them divide and conquer us.

Really.

[pnwmom]

89. You are insisting on your right to USE a specific group of vulnerable allies in the fight.

As if the English language isn't ripe with other possibilities, as if only hurling gay slurs will be insulting enough.

You can't even see your own homophobia. But that's often the way it is.

[LaydeeBug]

92. This has been explained to you SEVERAL times. see post #33. nt

[pnwmom]

99. And I've explained to you several times that homophobic hate speech isn't okay

no matter what you think.

Weaponizing gay people is using them -- is dehumanizing them.. Period.

[LaydeeBug]

101. and I've explained to you it isn't homophobic. Period.

[pnwmom]

112. It's exactly the same thing RWers do in the service of their cause.

They want lower taxes, so they weaponize homophobia and gay slurs.

You want DT out of office, so you weaponize homophobia and gay slurs.

Same thing.

[Ms. Toad]

172. So I'm waiting for you to call them N*****s.

They would certanly find it an insult, and if there aren't weapons removed from your arsenel, it must be perfectly fine for you to use.

Go ahead. I'm waiting.

Although I suspect you know very well how offensive that would be to people you claim are your allies - for exactly the same reason that calling somene gay as an insult is offensive to members of the LGBT community.

Unprecedented times do not make it acceptable to use people you claim are your allies as a battering ram. In fact, it is times like these that make it even more important that we act gently with those on our side - and that includes listening when members of a group to which you claim to be an ally ask you to step off of their foot.

[LaydeeBug]

206. so I'm waiting for you to get off of my dick.

Last edited Fri May 5, 2017, 07:31 PM - Edit history (1)

[Ms. Toad]

207. If you hadn't been waving it around showing it off . . .

Seems to be a thing these days.

Not to mention that people who waggle their dicks around in public shouldn't be surprised when bad things happen to their dicks.

The topic of bad “allies” has come up a lot lately. Some people want to know how to identify bad allies. Others want to know if they are being bad allies. Below is a list of common issues in the ever popular internet quiz style to help you determine if yourself or someone else might be a bad ally.

http://juliepagano.com/blog/2014/02/26/bad-ally-quiz


0-1: Either you’re an amazingly awesome ally or you lied on the quiz. The latter seems more likely – shame on you.
2-10: You’re doing a pretty good job, but remember that being an ally is an ongoing process, so you should continue to work hard.
11-24: You’re making some mistakes and have room for improvement, but you are making good progress.
25-49: You make a lot of mistakes, but might still act as an ally at times. You have a lot of room to improve. You should spend more time educating yourself.
50-99: You are rarely or never an ally, but might be able to start developing your skills if you’re willing to work hard. You need to spend a lot of time on educating yourself.
100+: You’re not ready to be an ally. Stop claiming you are. Go educate yourself.
1000+: You’re not even close to being an ally. In fact, you’re probably actively harming members of the group you’re supposedly allied with. STOP IT. Work on improving asap.
5000+: You’re not an ally. You’re a shitty human being. What the fuck is wrong with you?

Just in this thread, alone, I can count to more than 1000.

[LaydeeBug]

208. Of course, this subthread PROVES my fucking point

And your participation shows your very own hypocrisy, complete with a SCORING system.

[Ms. Toad]

210. I am not claiming to be an ally. I am a lesbian.

The scoring system has nothing to do with me. It is a scoring system for those who claim, as you have, to be an ally.

As a lesbian, that gives me the right to address whether using me as a battering ram to insult others is acceptable. (It is not. Ever.)

[pnwmom]

26. Are you the arbiter of what is or isn't offensive to the gay community?

We should all error on the side of NOT being offensive.

[LaydeeBug]

34. Are *YOU*?

[AngryAmish]

41. No, I am.

[pnwmom]

59. More so than you are. It doesn't matter if a random gay person here or there agrees with you.

If you are offending or wounding a significant group of gay people with your slur, then it is wrong.

If you have enough empathy, which you apparently do not, then try to imagine being a 14 year old boy just becoming aware of his identity. Kids that age DO watch Colbert. And what happens when they become aware that gay sexual practices are viewed as the ultimate insult?

And here you pretend to be an ally but you want to add your voice to that. You want to USE gay people for your purpose of hurting Putin and DT in what you view as the ultimate way.

[pnwmom]

29. They are being used in order to demean Putin and Trump -- in their minds.

You said:" it isn't because anyone is trying to bother gays, and you know it. It bothers *them*, and *we* know that, too."

You are advocating the use of this as the ultimate insult against DT and Putin, but by doing so you are validating it as an insult.

[LaydeeBug]

35. see post #33 and never try to hamstring me again.

[pnwmom]

55. Or what? You'll insult gay people some more? nt

[RedWedge]

68. LOL

[moriah]

53. What's sad is that it IS an insult. But there's our society.

I can't sit here, as a straight woman, and tell a gay guy whose been called those things their discomfort with the term is irrelevant.

It's not up to allies to start telling the people we're supposed to be allies with how to feel and why they shouldn't be offended. Mansplaining, whitesplaining, straightsplaining.... it's all part of the same shit.

[whathehell]

120. Um, no...It means "women" I'm one and, yeah, sorry, I agree with her.

I find your language ugly, even 'coyote ugly', apologies to coyotes

[angstlessk]

4. Come on, sista, tell me how you really feel!

Kick & rec...you hold nothing back..

[Sculpin Beauregard]

10. I cocksucking, motherfucking agree!!

I will not stand for my language being policed—there lies the way of the doubleplus ungood authoritarian police state.

Which is what the Trump regime is doing its best to manifest.

[LaydeeBug]

12. A-motherFUCKING-men to that. We can't *have* those small squabbles. We need to fight THEM

[Sculpin Beauregard]

16. Indeed. The soul of democracy is at stake.

[pnwmom]

71. We will lose our own souls if we sacrifice other vulnerable people to this fight.

The English language is full of language that could be used that isn't hurtful to a specific group of allies.

[LaydeeBug]

118. Thank you.

[Caliman73]

162. What does that even mean?

You know that rich people are 60% likely, or more, to get their proposed legislation passed while non rich people are about 20% likely to have the same?

How is learning to use language that is not demeaning to marginalized groups an obstacle to "saving the soul of democracy" when the votes of non rich people are already worth so little?

We can chew gum and walk at the same time. We can encourage people to think about what they say at the same time we encourage them to fight.

[ProudLib72]

17. I don't think it was homophobic

Did he actually say that being gay was wrong? NO! He implied that tRump and Putin are intimately tied and that tRump is in an inferior position. Suppose it was Melania he was talking about. Would it have been horribly wrong then? No, nobody would have said anything because it would imply straight sex. But sex is sex, gay or straight.

There has been plenty of gay bashing in the protest against Putin, and I will agree that it should be stopped. Colbert's joke, however, was not gay bashing.

[LaydeeBug]

19. perzactly.

[pnwmom]

30. Using gay sexual acts to insult Putin and DT contributes to our cultures's homophobia,

whatever the intention behind it.

[fishwax]

138. "that tRump is in an inferior position"

This analysis (which is spot on in terms of how the language was used) would seem to suggest that sucking cock makes one inferior. And that's part of the reason people object to language like this.

[ProudLib72]

140. Nah

It has been used to cast women as inferior as well. Anything having to do with penetration automatically assumes the person being penetrated is in an inferior position.

[fishwax]

143. Yeah, I know ... that's just another part of the problem

Sucking cock doesn't make you inferior, whether you're a man or a woman. But those insults both draw on and ultimately shore up support for that assumption.

[bettyellen]

169. That's exactly the problem- it's sexist and homophobic. I don't want to see "bitch" thrown around

Here either. We have community standards, and we agreed to them when joining. Y'all got the entire rest of the net for sexist shit.

[demmiblue]

174. Well, that is fucked up too.

What the hell? I am amazed at the casual acceptance/promotion of homophobia and sexism.

[ProudLib72]

190. Never said it wasn't fucked up reasoning

It has to do with our culture's sexual taboos. In a sexually repressed society, straight sex missionary style is the only acceptable sex.

[Saviolo]

20. I get it, I'm not an idiot

They're not attacking gay men like myself with their rhetoric when they're saying that Trump and Putin are having sex together. They're using gay imagery and iconography to make fun of Trump and Putin's toxic masculinity. And yeah, it's pretty funny sometimes.

I also got called fag and cocksucker for decades.

So, every time you use those words out loud in front of people, you might be pushing one young gay kid further into the closet because he thinks it must be SO WRONG to be gay that they're using it to insult these terrible people.

Does it bother Trump and Putin? Yeah, absolutely. In Putin's case, it likely means that he's going to put MORE pressure on homosexuals in Russia, and they're already rounding them up in Chechnya and telling mothers to KILL THEIR GAY CHILDREN SO THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T HAVE TO!

So pardon me when I ask for my allies to please not use homosexuality as an insult. I'm not demanding it, and I know it's not gonna stop. The target is just too juicy. I just wish sometimes that my allies on the left weren't so eager to try and upset and demean a strong man literally killing gay people with "Haha, he's a gay!" jokes.

[mythology]

23. Thank you for your well reasoned post

It's sad that people here feel the need to use such language/imagery. If the worst thing you can think to call somebody is bitch or gay, you're saying that being female or being gay is bad. Plus is shows a remarkable lack of imagination in one's capacity to insult.

[cwydro]

45. Thank you.

Unfortunately, the op doesn't get this.

[Behind the Aegis]

24. Apparently, homophobia is OK...sometimes.

The only people I see calling for Colbert's head are hypocritical republicans who couldn't care less about homophobia. As I said in another post, the irony here is the RW is howling about homophobia, while the left, our supposed allies, is ignoring the homophobia. This isn't the be all to end all of anti-gay insults, and as far as Colbert is concerned, he is very gay positive, but it doesn't change the fact it is demeaning to gay people.

Some animals are more equal than others. Apparently, we need to be 'splained to as to why using homophobia is OK when our side does it to "bad" people.

[LaydeeBug]

36. *nope*. It is NOT homophobia to say Trump's mouth is Putin's cock holster.

[RedWedge]

58. I'm wondering if you can walk us through your reasoning, instead of just saying "nope, that's

not the intent."

[pnwmom]

72. What she doesn't understand is her INTENT is irrelevant.. She is USING gay slurs,

and thus gay people, as a weapon against DT/Putin.

When she weaponizes gay slurs, she is dehumanizing gay people.

[LaydeeBug]

75. *nope*

Your insistence that we fight each other instead of them is MUCH more of a threat to the gay community.

[pnwmom]

77. No, I'm insisting that you not USE gay people. Unless you have a very limited imagination

or vocabulary -- and I know Stephen Colbert doesn't -- there are plenty of other equally insulting things that could be said to a narcissist that wouldn't involve hate slurs.

[LaydeeBug]

80. Nice try. No dice. I insist that you not censor me at ALL.

[pnwmom]

137. Are you insisting on your right to use racial hate speech against him, too?

Because there's no difference.

[whathehell]

136. Not female slurs?

or are we just not that important?

[pnwmom]

150. I don't think men are entitled to use female slurs. Women are free to, if that's what they want.

And it is a different thing for a gay person to choose to use a slur like this than for a straight so-called ally.

[whathehell]

156. I disagrees with your first declaration..I guess they are "free"

To use them, but so are men and that's not the point --- It's self-hating, stupid, and sell-defeating.

[ProudLib72]

27. I'm not trying to downplay the gay bashing

I'm not trying to explain away something that exists. I can see how a lot of people would jump on the Colbert thing and call it gay bashing. But I just don't see that as a rational response. I see it as a RW attempt to make it into something it isn't. And, yeah, I can also see that trying to turn it into something it's not can be dangerous as well.

What I hope for is a more open discussion of gay issues. I don't think it's enough to say, "Oh, let's all embrace the LBGT community" and then go on about our business as usual. Come to think of it, I've been keeping a mental note of how many (few) threads there are about LGBT issues. I see them every once in a while, and it seems like it's the weekly "token" thread. In other words, I feel like the correct response is to call out the RW pundits for twisting the narrative while having a meaningful dialogue about gay issues. Otherwise, the RW wins.

Finally, I admit that I am writing this from the privileged position of being a straight, white male. So, no, I can't truly imagine your experience. I just don't want you to think I'm making light of it.

[pnwmom]

32. You are being hypocritical. If right-wingers were using the exact same language to attack

people on the left, you would recognize it as gay bashing.

But somehow you think that being an ally of some sort allows you to use gay slurs against people you don't like.

You're wrong. It doesn't. Whether you are gay bashing is NOT dependent on some feeling inside your head -- in other words, if you hate gay people, it's gay bashing; if you love gay people, then it's not bashing.

No, that's not how it works. Whether it is bashing or not depends on the words you use, not your feelings when you use them.

Find some other way to insult Putin and DT than a slur that refers to gay sex.

[LaydeeBug]

40. *nope*. Not being hypocritical at all...being real.

"Find some other way to insult Putin and DT than a slur that refers to gay sex." <<<<<-----*NOPE*

Use WHATEVER WORKS.

[pnwmom]

193. Then don't call yourself an ally. And stop referring to "my gays."

Any true ally would make an effort to listen, and no gay people belong to you.

[LaydeeBug]

194. Then DON'T THINK YOU ARE THE ARBITER OF THIS. Get off of my dick

[pnwmom]

200. When you stop being offensive, people will "get off your dick."

Do you think you're being clever?

[ProudLib72]

202. I've been thinking about that situation

You are probably right, I would call it gay bashing if a RW person said it.

[pnwmom]

203. Thanks for reconsidering this, ProudLib72.

It's sort of like someone saying "I only hit you because i love you." No one can measure or prove the feeling inside the hitter's head. But the hitting is tangible.

[LaydeeBug]

42. Holy fucking WOW full of Oh HELL NO....

every time you use WHATEVER WORKS, you are showing that closeted gay kid that standing up for yourself is something they can do too.

Holy fucking *WOW*. These are unprecedented times.

[Saviolo]

43. You are like every "ally" I had in high school

... who put their arm around my shoulder and said, "You're okay, man. I don't want to insult you, but THAT GUY OVER THERE IS A FAGGOT! LOLOLOL!!!"

[pnwmom]

63. This is USING gay people, not standing up for them. Compare DT and Putin

to raw sewage, compare them to intestinal worms, compare them to whatever you want -- except for using anti-gay hate speech for your ends. That's not acceptable.

It's not any more acceptable than if you were using slurs comparing them to black people or to Jewish people. Or are you fine with using any group of vulnerable people for your purpose?

[pnwmom]

61. Thank you for your very strong post. I wish I could write about this as well,

but it's making me too angry.

[Saviolo]

62. I'm trying to be nuanced

But I'm getting pretty upset about it, too. I wrote a very long essay in the "Colbert has no regrets" thread, and I feel I may have overdone it!

[pnwmom]

64. In my opinion it isn't possible to overdo it. Would it be okay to use racial slurs to insult them?

Or slurs attacking them for being Jewish?

This is no different.

[Sissyk]

127. +1000

Excellent post!

[pnwmom]

25. No, I strongly disagree. Anytime you use a gay-related term as a SLUR, or an attack word,

you're hurting other gay people. Especially young gay people who are still trying to figure out their place in the world. Or the children of gay people who are trying to figure out their family's place in the world.

There are a lot of other words in your arsenal. Pick some that aren't homophobic, racist, sexist, etc.

[LaydeeBug]

37. *nope*. see post #33.

[pnwmom]

31. I'd love to know how many of the people dismissing the significance of this are gay themselves. n/t

[LaydeeBug]

38. I'd love to see the gay community fight *THEM* instead of complaining about *us*

Oh...THAT'S RIGHT....a LOT of the gay community have no compunction whatsoever about any of that shit.

We will not back down. We will not relinquish *any* weapon.

words are words and if they bother them, that helps *us*.

Get ready to hear more "sand in their pussy" over this or that.

That word 'pussy' *bothers* them.

***GOOD***

[pnwmom]

73. You are dehumanizing gay people -- turning them into weapons -- with every use of gay slurs.

Which is exactly what homophobic right-wingers do. And just like you, they think they're doing it for a higher cause.

[LaydeeBug]

79. *Nope* Your broken record technique does not make it so.

[pnwmom]

180. You have provided dozens of examples of that technique. n/t

[moriah]

122. ... here's some links about what being an ally IS.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/11/things-allies-need-to-know/

http://urge.org/how-to-an-lgbtq-ally-without-being-a-jerk/

So far you've marginalized the viewpoint of every person who has identified as a gay male who does feel that, regardless of context, it's still an anti-gay slur. Even the VERY reasonable posts where they said it was hilarious, of course Colbert shouldn't be canned and the RW poutrage has nothing to do with supporting the LGBT community at all, but acknowledged the anti-gay nature of the slur, you've jumped over.

Are you LGBT? I normally don't ask, because I figure if you wanted me to know about your sexual orientation you'd tell me. But in this post you're seemingly saying you're an ally.

Well, take the first REAL step in being an ally. Shut up for a moment, listen to your fucking allies, consider their point of view, and don't talk down to them.

I say this in the spirit of doing, as the last link suggests, creating a safe space for my allies then shutting the fuck up myself.

[RedWedge]

125. Excellent post. nt

[cwydro]

149. Perfect post. nt

[cwydro]

46. I'm gay, and I hate being gay used as an insult.

I think you're wasting your time using reason with this particular op however.

[pnwmom]

60. I'm the daughter of a gay man, and i loathe it being used to insult.

I often experience the world like a closeted gay person. Not because I'm purposely closeted anymore (as i was decades ago), but I don't hang a sign around my neck and there's no way to tell by looking at me.

So people make assumptions, and they say things that they probably wouldn't say if they knew.

So I can imagine how you feel, cwydro. Unlike the OP.

[TheFrenchRazor]

192. ditto; this shouldn't require an explanation. nt

[Jno_Gilmor_]

39. Hopefully we can shame Trump into doing something about it.

Even Marco Rubio spoke out against what's happening.

[Gothmog]

47. K&R

[pnwmom]

70. I have to say I'm really disappointed, Gothmog.

I thought you would "get it."

The OP's point of view is toxic to many people in the gay community, and that includes me, as a daughter. Gay slurs should never be used as a weapon against anyone, even straight loathsome people. Because it is validating the use of gay slurs when even allies use them.

[RedWedge]

69. Why not go full asshole and use racial slurs as well?

I mean...

[pnwmom]

76. Exactly. She can't understand why using hate talk isn't okay. And that she's not much of an ally. nt

[LaydeeBug]

84. And you must not be that much of an ally if you want to hamstring speech. nt

[RedWedge]

87. What do you lose if people ask you not to use a word that's often heard as a slur?

[pnwmom]

90. I am asking you not to become the enemy in your defense of us. But that's what you're doing.

There are a million other words in the dictionary. Pick some.

[LaydeeBug]

95. post #33. Stop thinking you can *assign* my words to me. You can't.

[RedWedge]

103. "Stop thinking you can *assign* my words to me."

Oh wait, I see. You actually don't know how words work. I'm sorry.

[pnwmom]

114. I'm not. Pick any words that aren't hate speech against a group of vulnerable allies.

There are hundreds of thousands of them, even in your apparently limited vocabulary.

[cwydro]

110. Just from reading that one's posts,

I'm thinking she may not be possessed of a large vocabulary.

Every post uses the same foul language and the same trite phrases.

"Get woke" indeed. Oh the irony

[LaydeeBug]

116. Truly. This is why I need people to stay off of my dick.

[LaydeeBug]

82. Why not try to use false equivalence and fight THEM, and ot *us*?

[RedWedge]

85. Seriously though, why not. I mean, WHATEVER WORKS.

Also, calling out a supposed ally isn't fighting.

[LaydeeBug]

91. YAWN

Distracting one with WEDGE issues is indeed fighting. It normalizes the coup

and they've been trying this shit since the coup.

It started with bathrooms.

Last week, it was abortion.

This week, it's Trump's Putin's penis holster of a mouth.

The enemy is Russia. Get woke.

[RedWedge]

94. LMAO. "Get woke," she says.

There are none less woke than those who refuse to awaken. Why not use racial slurs against white supremacists of the GOP? Seriously though, why not? You wouldn't be using the slurs against people of color. Think of how mad it would make Republicans! WHATEVER WORKS!!1!!!!!11

[LaydeeBug]

96. post #33.

[cwydro]

124. Bingo. nt

[pnwmom]

93. It is not FALSE equivalence. Redwedge has made the perfect analogy. nt

[LaydeeBug]

97. It *is*. Post #33

[pnwmom]

102. #33 is as wrong as the first time you directed me to it. nt

[LaydeeBug]

104. *nope*.

[RedWedge]

100. Oh wait, I've got it! To stay 'woke,' why not call the RUSSIANS racial slurs?

They would absolutely flip! They would hate it even more than homophobic slurs! DO IT, LaydeeBug! Take a stand and show how no one will hamstring your speech! WHATEVER WORKS!!1!!!1!

[LaydeeBug]

105. There you go again...wedge issues and all....

[pnwmom]

107. You know Redwedge is right, no matter how often you say *nope.*

There is no logical reason why it's okay to use homophobic slurs against DT/Putin and not racial or religious slurs.

[LaydeeBug]

108. LOL. Ok. Oral sex is not homophobic. AT ALL. Please get off of my dick.

[pnwmom]

115. Making slurs to do with oral sex between two men IS homophobic

whether you do it, or whether RWers do it.

[RedWedge]

109. No, I'm laser-focused on the Russians here. If you can make them and their Republican supporters

angry by using vivid sexual slurs, just think of what you could do with racial slurs. Or...are you less devoted to this cause than you seem to be? Are you less woke than you made it seem? Do you not realize how unbelievably angry and frustrated The Russians and their Republican supporters would be if you, LaydeeBug, used racial slurs to scold them on DU? Don't let social mores hamstring your speech, brave LaydeeBug! These words hold such power, it takes only a few pokes of a keyboard to unleash them!

[LaydeeBug]

113. Again with thinking it's yours to *assign*. Please, please, get off of my dick. nt

[RedWedge]

117. What do you mean by "assign"? Your own words are "Use WHATEVER WORKS."

Don't let people remove certain terms from your arsenal! Don't let people "cater their outrage to appease someone else's spite invective"! Why are you wasting time arguing with us? UNLEASH THE SLURS! Because they won't actually BE slurs, since you'll be using them against The Russians and Republicans, and because you, LaydeeBug, are using them!

[LaydeeBug]

129. Why won't you get off of my dick?

[RedWedge]

131. Why won't you use whatever arsenal you can to insult people? What's holding you back?

[LaydeeBug]

152. Why are you *STILL* all up on my dick? nt

[RedWedge]

154. Why won't you stand up for yourself and refuse to be hamstrung on ALL words, not just ones that

some people feel are homophobic?

[demmiblue]

155. Because you are wrong. n/t

[cwydro]

159. Um. The only one "on your dick," imo,

is you.

You've stepped on it pretty badly.

[LaydeeBug]

204. and yet, here you are.

[KPN]

119. Preach it Laydeebug!

The GOP always goes low. What ever happened to the axiom "nice guys come in last".

Going high only works with fair players. This isn't fair play -- this is a war against the little people.

[LaydeeBug]

126. Thank *YOU* KPN. Your last sentence is *truth*, and these haters are gonna hate anyway.

Going high only works with fair players. This isn't fair play -- this is a war against the little people.

[KPN]

128. No, thank you

for having the courage to speak the truth here in a place that seems more and more hostile to anyone who doesn't speak the official party line as expressed by established leaders. You did so in a non-confrontational way. I applaud you.

[RedWedge]

139. .

[fishwax]

132. Meh. I don't need that language in my arsenal. I'm not interesting in subjecting

the people I care about to collateral damage.

[pnwmom]

133. Thank you, fishwax. That's exactly what they're doing -- making gay people collateral damage. nt

[demmiblue]

135. Well stated.

[demmiblue]

134. This is one of the ugliest threads I have read in awhile.

Shame on you.

[m-lekktor]

141. It's pretty bad. and 25 recs so far.

I think I will take my gay ass elsewhere to discuss the issues.

[cwydro]

148. It's very disappointing.

Smh.

[nolabear]

142. I'm getting disturbed by some of the DU rhetoric right now.

It's dangerous. What on earth has made us so happy to throw over the principles the left certainly SHOULD support? When the going gets tough, the tough turn into left-leaning hatemongers?

It's not the DU I love.

[demmiblue]

144. It is really disturbing.

We have nothing if we do not have our core values.

They are not taking my moral compass, that is for damned sure.

[Saviolo]

147. I'm pretty discouraged

That someone felt the need to actively come out with this OP in response to (what I thought was) a rather measured and rational post where I linked to this article:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029010750

[pnwmom]

181. I didn't realize your OP was first. That makes the other one even worse.

She went to war on your OP.

Wow.

[Saviolo]

182. Yeah,

I can only see this as a direct response to mine, which is incredibly discouraging when I felt my original was a pretty respectful request.

[pnwmom]

185. Yours was very respectful, clear, and well thought out.

Unlike the rant in response.

[Inkfreak]

186. I just read your post and rec'ed it. You are 100% spot on

I think this OP is taking DU for a ride and not to be taken seriously. It's ridiculous.

[petronius]

145. Add me to the list of those rejecting the argument/advice in this OP

Homophobia 'for a good cause' is still homophobia, bigotry 'for a good cause' is still bigotry, and I want no part of it...

[hughee99]

146. Yeah, if this sort of language is "what works" then that's PART OF THE PROBLEM, not a means to the

solution. It's not "okay when we do it". We don't get a pass because "we're good people" or we "know what's best" or we're the party that supports gay rights. This language isn't going to undo anything, it's just going to unnecessarily divide us further. We don't have to remove this language from our arsenal to appease anyone, we have to remove this language from our arsenal because it's wrong.

If you can't make the case against Trump without using this sort of language, you don't understand the problem well enough.

[RedWedge]

151. Very well said.

[cwydro]

157. Ditto. nt

[Saviolo]

153. And while some people die on that hill to use gross language at Trump and Putin

Trump's actually doing damage to LGBTQ communities with his new Religious Liberty EO.

I'd love to see some of the folks who really really want to be able to call Trump and Putin gay stand up for the actual LGBTQ community instead of using us as a prop, allowing us to be collateral damage, demeaning us, and dismissing us while Trump tears our communities apart:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39798989

Seems like we're getting it from both sides, and I wish our allies would stop and listen for a moment every now and than, y'know?

[cwydro]

161. One thing this thread has made abundantly clear

is exactly who are NOT our allies.

Sigh.

[Saviolo]

163. I'm sad and exhausted, now.

And I didn't mean to start fighting the culture wars all over, with folks on "my side."

[Ms. Toad]

164. As a lesbian, you are NO ally of mine

Last edited Thu May 4, 2017, 05:21 PM - Edit history (1)

if you use being gay as an insult. Period.

Allies cannot claim permission to use words that have been used as weapons against those they claim to be allies to. That is permission that is given only on an individual basis and, as an ally, is limited to using those words in the exclusive company of the individual who granted that permission.

You are not a strong supporter of the gay community when you ignore the voices of the gay community when we tell you it is unacceptable to use being gay as an insult. Period.

As for the Democratic party - please. It is just barely and recently on the right side of this issue. Remember the 2012 presidential election, when all the candidates opposed same gender marriage? Remember DOMA? Remember DADT? Remember Rick Warren?The Democratic party has a long history of standing in our way and on our toes. Maybe, in a decade or so, it will have a long enough track record to have earned a bare minimum of trust.

Unprecedented times does not give you the right to insult me by declaring that Trump and Putin are vile becasuse - like me - they are gay.

[cwydro]

166. Yes indeed.

Thank you.

This thread has been appalling...and illuminating.

[hughee99]

168. On the bright side, it's encouraging to see a good share of DUers stand up and speak out

on why the OP is wrong. It would have been much worse, IMHO, if all the responses were in enthusiastic, or even passive, agreement.

Even the premise is that "it works" is faulty. Is there any evidence that supports the idea that using homophobic language has changed a single person's mind about Trump? I haven't seen any.

That's not really the point, though. Even if it did change some people's minds, if you have to use homophobic language to get through to someone, you've already lost. You haven't won an ally, you've just tricked a bigot into temporarily supporting you. A week or two down the road, someone on the other side will trick them into switching back, and you will have compromised your morals and hurt or alienated a lot of people for nothing anyway.

[cwydro]

171. Absolutely right.

I'll choose to look on the bright side. Many DUers did speak up against this deplorable op!

[pnwmom]

176. I spent a lot of time here this morning and I'm glad if it helped support you

because it was driving me crazy.

I thought at first it was just a mistake on some people's part, but they could be reasoned with. Yeah, right.

[cwydro]

179. I kind of a have a sneaking suspicion about this op.

But I'll keep it to myself.

[pnwmom]

175. +1,000000000000

[madokie]

170. I love your righteous rants

I just wanted you to know that

[countryjake]

178. "Trash thread. nt"

With a nod to the compassion & awareness of a wise DU friend's final post.

[cwydro]

183. Damn right. nt

[beam me up scottie]

187. No.

I refuse to use homophobic, racial, gender-based or any other slurs because I care about my allies.

If an ally tells you a slur is offensive the very least you can do is STOP using it.

[LaydeeBug]

188. Ok.

I am an ally and I find the slur of your censorship offensive. Please stop doing it, because while you are fighting ME, Russia is moving in.

[beam me up scottie]

189. 'Censorship'?

No one is 'censoring' you, your allies are simply telling you that when you encourage others to use bigoted slurs you're not acting like an ally - and I agree with them.

[LaydeeBug]

195. Yep. CENSORSHIP.

Saying someone is up on your dick, or that Trump's mouth is Putin's penis holster is NOT a fucking slur.

At all.

You're welcome.

PS. You *might* want to apply your little meme to the mirror.

[Ms. Toad]

197. You are NOT an ally

As this thread clearly demonstrates. Allies listen to those to whom they claim to be allies - not straightsplain why they have the right to use them as a battering ram, or school them to help them understand that they are misunderstanding their lived experiencea.

[moriah]

198. And if I may, I'll link this again.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/11/things-allies-need-to-know/

More and more, I am seeing precisely what McKenzie is describing – people of identity privilege who are identifying as “allies” almost as if it is a core part of their identity.

What’s worse, I keep seeing people respond to criticism about their oppressive language or problematic humor with, “But I’m an ally!”

For instance, I recently saw an acquaintance (who notably identifies as Straight) post a pretty problematic joke about Gay men on Twitter.

Aside from expressing my discontent in a tweet, I reached out to her in a private message to explain why I took issue with her joke.

Her response, though, was to say, “Jamie, you know that I’m an LGBT ally! I speak out for Gay rights all the time! This was clearly just a joke.”

And therein lies the problem.

The identification of “ally” was so prominent in this person’s mind that she couldn’t even hear criticism of how her actions were out of alignment with her professed desire to be an “ally!”

So “allies,” let’s talk.


... very long snip....


As a person who benefits every single day from White privilege, it is not my place to engage People of Color in a discussion about what is or is not racist. That’s not solidarity.

When we have identity privilege, it's not acting in solidarity to dominate the narrative or to tell people who we claim to be allies with how to feel. We listen. We create safe spaces so our allies can be heard. We tell attempted "allies" when they aren't acting in solidarity. Then we back up and let the people with life experience discuss what is and isn't bigoted speech.

[Ms. Toad]

199. Perfect! Thank you! n/t

[beaglelover]

196. You are a very popular subject at Discussionist

https://www.discussionist.com/10151313214

[loyalsister]

201. So, when racism was exploited by Democrats in order to win it was for the common good?

For select white people maybe. It didn't work out so well for a lot of people. Democratic leadership recognized it and admitted to being wrong.

Maybe it's better to not have to apologize later?

[LaydeeBug]

205. *nope*. Conflate with someone else. I'm woke.

[loyalsister]

209. Bigotry is bigotry

It's a reasonable analogy. If more Dems had been okay with it, George (segregation now, segregation forever) Wallace might have been president. Whether he actually believed that or was courting the KKK so that they would support a Democrat has been debated and I doubt anyone knows for sure. Regardless, when he exploited racism in order to win, he participated in it.

[LaydeeBug]

213. No. It is NOT a reasonable analogy...it is divide and conquer. nt