The French election proves that it wasn't Russia that elected Trump,it was the Republicans and Comey

[poli3]

Russia intervened against both Macron and Hillary to help out their preferred candidates, Le Pen and Trump. However, the difference is that the GOP and Comey actively aided Trump, whereas the Republicans and conservatives in France aided Macron.

If you want to stop someone, you actually have to take action against them, otherwise you construct a self-defeating prophecy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defeating_prophecy

[C_U_L8R]

1. Or maybe the French are just smarter

[JTFrog]

23. They paid attention to what happened here.

Definitely smarter.

[annabanana]

37. this . . .n/t

[FarPoint]

55. Exactly....

Remember...DU also was seriously Hacked on Election night... Trolls​, Russia and GOP were obnoxious here during the campaign and still are here I sense.

[NewRedDawn]

79. Yes

I was arguing with one here yesterday on a thread about Putin wanting to give Russia more of the credit for winning WWII who thought Stalin was a Great man & saved us all from the Nazis.

[DrDan]

43. this

[pnwmom]

45. AND they learned from our mistakes. nt

[BainsBane]

67. Yes, less susceptible to propaganda

The ultimate responsibility lies with the citizenry.

[nikibatts]

72. It only proved our voters aren't as smart in some areas.

And, the French had our 2016 election to learn from.

[hrmjustin]

2. Nope!

Wrong conclusion.

[triron]

17. Yep, Clearly wrong conclusion. wtf anyway

How does it do that? Non sequitir

[Botany]

3. Please!

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/01/24/russians-suspected-hacking-wisconsin-dems/97023222/

BTW the French vote on paper ballots that are put into a see through box and are hand counted too.

[MoonRiver]

4. Maybe their elections are honest.

[chelsea0011]

5. Ok....No one has said that Russia elected Trump. But, it certainly was

a contributing factor ina US election. And we need to know how many trumpsters we can fit in the traitor mobile.

[poli3]

10. Point is that the blame relies on the GOP and Comey

Putin's help would've made zero difference if Comey and the GOP hadn't supported Trump in the first place. Just like how Putin's help didn't help Le Pen.

[Turbineguy]

6. France does not have Fox News either.

Fox + RW Hate Machine + Stupid voters + Putin + DNC = Trump.

I think it's a combination of forces.

[Leith]

13. France Had Advance Warning

They saw what happened in the US and Britain.

[Turbineguy]

48. Indeed they did.

The U.S. had advance warning too, but we like to ignore those things.

[delisen]

70. We should have had advance warning-but the news was kept from us.

[brush]

78. Yep, Comey kept his investigation of trump secret instead of divulging it alone with the Clinton one

Not to say I'm agreeing completely with the OP. Russian operatives and their hacking revelations revealed by weasel Assanges' Wikileaks certain contributed to the negativity towards Clinton which of course influenced some voters.

[NewRedDawn]

81. Ding Ding Ding.

We have the winner!

[Sculpin Beauregard]

7. No, ffs, it was Mercer/Bannon (GOP) and Putin.

Mercer and Putin each ran a coordinating disinformation campaign. Read this Guardian article. Mercer already tilted Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

[poli3]

9. Except that the 'alt-right' media exists in the every country

The same exact propaganda campaign occurred in France too. The difference is that in other countries, conservatives will vote for the left over the alt-right, instead, in the US, the GOP and Comey supported Trump.

[Sculpin Beauregard]

15. Read the article.

[poli3]

19. That's more murdoch's doing

[Sculpin Beauregard]

21. Jesus Christ, don't read it then. smh.

[LaydeeBug]

8. *nope*

[BannonsLiver]

11. Nyet, comrade.

[ProudLib72]

12. Nyet!

It was because the French actually listened to the warnings about Russian meddling and gave a shit. Plus paper ballots without any computer interference in the counting process. Plus Sunday elections. Plus no fucking stupid electoral college.

[poli3]

14. Except the French media couldn't report on anything due to the blackout

so that argument doesn't make sense. It was the republicans in the US that backed Trump, whereas republicans in France backed Macron.

[ProudLib72]

16. Yeah a whole 44 hour blackout

Before which they could warn, warn, warn. And there was no blackout on any other country's media, which means the French could listen to what was happening the whole time.

[poli3]

20. What were they warning about? They didn't say anything

Fillon was saying that there was no Russian interference. The emails released directly before that blackout.

[ProudLib72]

30. Warning ahead of the election

Twitter and non-French news feeds after the blackout covered it all.

[poli3]

33. French don't read non-French news

The point is that russia had limited impact, it was only Comey and the GOP establishment that elected Trump. Without the GOP backing Trump, he doesn't win. They're more responsible because they knew about Trump.

[Greybnk48]

18. Nyet! n/t

[6000eliot]

22. Completely disagree.

Nice RT talking points, though.

[poli3]

26. Not talking points, these are facts

Hitler was only elected due to German establishment types like Von Papen backing him.

[L. Coyote]

24. Trump was the GOP's choice by a mile.

Wow, you should know that Trump wasn't "aided" by the GOP, he is the personification of the GOP.

[Hugin]

25. How do you figure?

All France proves is that once the populace is wise to an outside social engineering influence, they tend to massively reject it.

It's the realization of the old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

[kydo]

27. Message deleted by DU the Administrators

[poli3]

35. No, it proves that russian interference doesn't matter

If you are dealing with principled and rational actors, which the GOP isn't. The GOP put Trump in power.

[kydo]

40. Message deleted by DU the Administrators

[blm]

77. GOP purged Dem voters in swing states thru Crosscheck AND Russia interfered maliciously, so...

please cut the horsesh!t.

It's called working in tandem. That is the reality.

Few of us here are as simpleminded as some would hope.

[elleng]

28. Doesn't 'prove' anything.

Don't overreach.

[Stinky The Clown]

29. Not so. Different election. Different issues. Different timing. Altogether different.

[TexasProgresive]

31. In real life usually there are several factors that give an outcome.

Trying to access 100% blame to any one of the causes leads to a false conclusion.

Russian hacking, Comey, angry lower middle class white voters in the rust belt, people at wits end believing the scam would solve their problems- this list goes on. Fortunately some of those who were angry and bought it are seeing that they were conned. Some people are only educated by experience. Parent, "Don't touch that. It's hot!" Child, "What, this?" touches the pot, "Owwww!" Parent, "Now you know about hot." puts package of frozen peas on scorched hand.

[tammywammy]

32. No, it doesn't. n/t

[0rganism]

34. remember that France holds its runoff election much sooner

relative to its primaries than we hold our general relative to our primaries

the Russians had much less time to operate and they still got a fat email dump to wikileaks. would have been much more damaging if the election had been delayed by another 4 months.

[beachbum bob]

36. the fake news that russia pushed against hillary had an effect and the russians pushing the

not "supporting the lessor of 2 evils" storyline....

[poli3]

38. but the same happened in france

All the exact same variables, the only different variable is that the republicans in France backed Macron, while the republicans in the US backed Trump.

[BeyondGeography]

39. Here's to the French system as well

Last edited Sun May 7, 2017, 05:53 PM - Edit history (1)

In France, you can create a party on the fly and win the presidency. Absent a conventional party label, Macron was much better able to define himself and fit his candidacy to the moment; it was Le Pen, the would-be insurgent, who looked stale and flat-footed. With our entrenched two-party system (not to mention the institutional stagnation within the parties) it would be much harder if not impossible to pull that off.

Democrats should be able to understand the difference of what happened here vs. what we are seeing in today's French election. In the face of Trump, their leaders cleared the decks for an establishment figure who many Americans were never going to like in what everyone understood to be a change election. In our system, there's no fallback if one party produces a suboptimal candidate to face an extremist. And there's no second round with a straight either/or choice.

When there are more than two relevant parties when it comes to actual power (Socialist/Communist/Republican/FN...and now, En Marche!), you need two rounds so the President ends up with something of a mandate rather than 30% of the vote. One result is people are able to vote with their hearts and their heads in the respective rounds, making it a little more difficult for extremists to rise to the top.

[Lotusflower70]

41. Not really

It proves that the French are smarter and learned from the shit show that happened here. Plus Macron got advice from President Obama that helped him avoid the pitfalls that happened here.

[Me.]

42. Not So

Macron's campaign paid attention to what happened to HRC and when the attack began they had a countermeasure in place. They turned the tables on the hackers by embedding what was clearly fake news for the hackers to capture and thus discredit them. Plus the hack and the immediate countermeasure happened not long before the blackout and many French people didn't even see the results of the hack.

[poli3]

46. most of the wikileaks clinton material was fake news anyway

And Clinton Cash came from breitbart, remember. The difference is that the GOP used that material to smear clinton, even establishment republicans like pompeo used the leaks against Clinton. In France, the establishment conservatives opposed the leaks and backed Macron.

[Me.]

50. But You Are Missing A Major Point

The Macron campaign took charge of the situation and played the hackers and gave them much of the fake info that was revealed. Another thing Macron did was own his issues and what he stood for, no waffling, walking back etc, no fear based reactions to fake news. Further, if the Clinton campaign had been alerted sooner they might've formulated a strategy to stop it. In addition, the entire scenario should've been made public. And lest we forget, there may yet be proof of collusion between the trumpets and Russia so the Breitbart thing was/should be no surprise.

[poli3]

56. The Clinton campaign also did that, remember Clinton's point about the intel agencies in the debate?

The Clinton campaign also tried to warn that there was fake news in the leaks, but that didn't matter. What mattered was that the GOP believed it, and used it against her. The republicans in France didn't promote it, that's the difference. Ryan's PAC was using the leaked info against Clinton.

[padah513]

44. Russia has played their hand

And it's out there now for all the world to see. Unfortunately it was too late for us, but the rest of the world can see the results of a Trump presidency and what candidates of his ilk are capable of, and I don't think they like it too much. The Netherland and now French elections should serve as proof of that fact.

[poli3]

47. It's not about Russia, it's the GOP

Berlusconi won his elections with establishment conservative support, just like Trump and Hitler. It's about how the right-wing establishment acts, that's the key.

Hitler wouldn't have even been elected without Von Papen's support.

[Me.]

51. Then You Are Being Willingly Blind About THis

[poli3]

54. no, it was the GOP that turned a blind eye

Without the GOP, russia would be meaningless. The point is that whatever percentage russia swung is minuscule compared to GOP+Comey support. Back in March of 2016, Trump was polling at 35% nationally exactly like Le Pen, what happened during the GE? The GOP fell in line behind him.

[Me.]

60. Interesting How Easily You Want To Excuse Russia

When there is so much info to the contrary.

Yes the GOP had a hand but they were aided and abetted.

[poli3]

63. Same situation as with the deal the GOP had between Iran and Reagan

Iran delayed the hostages, and Reagan paid them back with iran-contra. Iran/Russia, etc. are powerless on their own, it was only with GOP support that they were able to be relevant players. It's a symbiotic relationship, one cannot live without the other.

[Me.]

69. Like I Said

[tblue37]

84. You also ignore the impact of the cynical and shameless media. nt

[Squinch]

49. I lulzed. Nice try.

[Coventina]

52. Riiiiiight.....

[CousinIT]

53. I agree. Russia's interference didn't do as much as Comey and voter suppression did. However,

Russia's interference cannot and must not go unanswered by our gov't and particularly when the "winner" in 2016 was complicit in that interference if he didn't outright collude with Russia in it (he and his alt-right/KKK/skinhead/meathead terrorists).

That the US gov't has not responded AT ALL to Russia's interference in the 2016 election is part of what emboldened them to try the same shit again in France and will continue to embolden them to do it elsewhere. This is WHY our previous President and most before considered Russia a power hostile to Democracy and therefore has sanctions against them.

As far as SHitler - yea that was Comey and the Greedy Old Psychopath party.

[librechik]

57. Rule #1 for stealing an election: The polls must be no more than a 6 point spread

A close election allows the stealer to claim the vote flip "just happened." Farther apart than that ( like the 30 pt spread between Macron and Le Pen) is impossible mathematically and will raise alarms.

The spread was close in Bush v Gore. Stolen election. The spread was close in Bush v. Kerry. Stolen. McCain v. Obama? Not close enough to steal.

Hillary v El Capo? Something a little different happened here, because the polls were not that close. Thirteen points is too far apart to credibly steal. So they plant false stories to discredit Hillary. Comey appears and says exactly the wrong thing at the wrong time. The poll spread shrinks (just in time) and voila, President Trump. Stolen election.

[octoberlib]

58. Forewarned is forearmed.

Also,

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[MedusaX]

59. Actually.... Comey would not have had any reason to send "letter" if not for the coordinated efforts

Of Russia & Trump Team to influence the election outcome.

Without Russia's involvement,
the laptop would not have been remotely accessible by those who had access to the emails which were conveniently placed on its hard drive....

Therefore, there would have been no emails to discover ..,, and no need to generate a letter ..

And if there was no partnership between Russia & Trump Team....
the NY FBI office would not have known that Russia had successfully accessed the laptop memory/ placed the emails on the drive...

Therefore, no discovery of email copies newly placed on the laptop...
and no letter of discovery issued by Comey

So one cannot factor Russia out of the Equation without simultaneously eliminating Comey from the equation...
Conversely, the presence of Comey in the equation is only possible when Russia and Team Trump together represent a single "term" ...
Since it was the result of the joint effort by Russia & Trump Team that was the subject (cause) of Comeys Letter

[Me.]

62. Excellent

[poli3]

64. which laptop are you talking about?

specify.

[karynnj]

71. Actually, the email problem started with media and Congress requesting Clinton's email

on various topics -- and the State Department not having them to give to them. The emails on Weiner's laptop were there because Huma emailed them to him so he could print them out so she could give them to Hillary.

What the Russian hackers did was to disseminate emails they hacked from Podesta and the DNC. I read the articles and there was very little there -- if you already assumed (as I bet all of us did) that DWS, who was active in HRC 2008 favored Clinton. I would have thought the debate schedule alone would have told that. What they MAY have also done was to get the voter information at the DNC -- which they could have given to the Republicans to help with targeting.

BOTH Comey and the hackers played roles, but they can be separated.

[poli3]

76. well, the recent nytimes story suggests that Comey was apparently influenced by a leaked DNC memo

to go 'rogue'.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/22/us/politics/james-comey-election.html

[jberryhill]

61. Because, uh, sure, there are no other variables

[joshcryer]

65. I think France, after seeing Russia's attempts, didn't fall for it.

The Americans were the experiment, and Americans are extremely social media manipulated.

[poli3]

66. except macron was always polling like this

because macron had institutional party support from the republicans. In the US, the republicans like Pompeo and the Ryan PAC used the propaganda against Clinton, that didn't happen in France.

[blue neen]

68. The Russians also interfered with the Republican primaries, meaning they interfered all around.

They wanted Trump to be the nominee. They wanted Trump to win the General.

Your theory is not correct.

[KT2000]

73. Not really proof

the hacks were continuous against Hillary and her staff, plus the DNC. For Macron the Russians thought they had perfect timing for release of emails but it backfired on them.

[kcr]

74. Wrong. The French election showed exactly why the Russian hacks worked for us but not for them.

The Comey letter didn't happen in a vacuum. If our takeaway from the French election is Russian hacks don't work, we are doomed to be victimized again.

[Barack_America]

75. That probably sounds more convincing in its native Russian.

[lunamagica]

80. Not at all. Remember they don't have the electoral college. Like most (all?) nations

only the popular vote counts.

The archaic, outdated EC is destroying America.

[NewRedDawn]

83. Yes it needs to go like yesterday.

The EC is a built in advantage to the Neo Confederacy Putin Publicans. It nullifies the will of the majority.

[denbot]

82. Nyet.

W/O Russian interference there would be no Trump.. But you know that, don't you.

[poli3]

86. Except, you don't expect Russia to behave, you should expect a major US party and Comey to behave

the fact that the GOP and the FBI Director worked with Putin says more about them, if not for the former, the latter would've accomplished zip.

[pansypoo53219]

85. don't forget the teevee gnewz that pimped turnip for ratings.

[blueinredohio]

87. That's what I think too

they see what we're going through so they knew better than to believe any of the bull

[ismnotwasm]

88. .

[JHB]

89. Actually, it doesn't prove that. It's not as if they're mutually exclusive.

I don't even see the need to prove one to the exclusion of the other: they reinforced each other.

[Cha]

90. The French learned from us.. that's obvious.

It was the Russian hacking, comey, m$m, 3rd party LIARS and Voter Suppression.