Why does North Korea hate the United States? Lets go back to the Korean War.

[rug]

i]North Korean soldiers take part in a military parade. (Reuters)

By Anna Fifield May 17 at 2:03 AM

SEOUL — Any day of the week, the North Korean propaganda machine can be relied upon to spew out anti-American vitriol using some formulation of “imperialist” and “aggressor” and “hostile.”

The Kim family has kept a tight grip on North Korea for some seven decades by perpetuating the idea that the Americans are out to get them. From the earliest age, North Korean children are taught “cunning American wolves” — illustrated by fair-haired, pale-skinned men with huge noses — want to kill them.

Kindergartens and child-care centers are decorated with animals holding grenades and machine guns. Cartoons show plucky squirrel soldiers (North Koreans) triumphing over the cunning wolves (Americans).

“North Koreans live in a war mentality, and this anti-American propaganda is war-time propaganda,” said Tatiana Gabroussenko, an expert in North Korean propaganda who teaches at Korea University in Seoul.

The thing is: there is some element of truth to the North Korean version of events. It’s only a kernel, and it is grossly exaggerated, but North Koreans remember very well what most Americans have forgotten (or never knew): that the Korean War was a brutal one.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/05/17/why-does-north-korea-hate-the-united-states-lets-go-back-to-the-korean-war/?utm_term=.12be49ed9eb2

[jberryhill]

1. "the Korean War was a brutal one"

Yes it was.

So was WWII in Europe and the Pacific. We dropped two atomic bombs on Japan, but it's not as if there has been a continuing program in Japan or here to nurture continuing resentments and recriminations.

[rug]

2. North Korea was never occupied by the U.S.

Assuming you're seeking an explanation.

[geek tragedy]

9. Neither was Vietnam ex post 1975.

[rug]

11. They won.

[Orrex]

22. No no no

We "failed to achieve victory." Big difference!

[rug]

41. Mea culpa.

[Wounded Bear]

12. Not entirely true...

we did move deep into the North, and were approaching the Yalu River when the Chinese intervened. From there, we were pushed back to the 38th Parallel, which is the curren DMZ.

We didn't "occupy," but we did "invade."

Doesn't justify the current position of the NK gov't, but it provides a kernel of truth for them to grow their propaganda from.

[rug]

16. That was the ebb and flow of the war, not a post-war occupation.

The succeeding 64 yeas of the suspension of armed conflict, but not the suspension of hostilities, is what has shaped North Korea. Understanding that is essential to cutting through the propaganda. It's something trump cannot grasp.

[Wounded Bear]

21. Understood...

but it does feed the propaganda. Kim can tell his people, "They invaded us once, they want to do it again." Since there are still people who physically remember that, it has real strength. They keep that from fading by the effort in the schools to teach the alternate history.

[JayhawkSD]

4. And then we spent decades rebuilding them

The Axis surrendered, the war ended, and then there was the Marshall Plan in Europe, and similar in Japan.

We bombed North Korea literally into rubble, there was no surrender, the war did not end but remained in a state of suspended hostility to this day.

Not that we're either good guys or bad guys. It was war, and that's what war is. I'm just saying that any claim to equivalence between the aftermath of WW2 and the aftermath of Korea is spurious.

[jberryhill]

18. What "claim to equivalence" have I made?

To say something to the effect of "DPRK has grievances over how the war was conducted" as a basis for understanding the continued hostility of their government toward the US, or as a basis of understanding hostility of the general population toward the US, IMHO, misses the point that those grievances are nurtured and reinforced by their propaganda program well beyond any justifiable proportion.

Clearly, it was okay with them if the evil US and allies defeated Japan, thus allowing any sort of independent Korean future, but I do wonder how they deal with the inconvenient fact that the US defeated what had been their historical primary foe for centuries. That part does not seem to figure into the balance, and neither does an accurate history of the origins of modern hostilities in the Korean peninsula.

I was not claiming "equivalence" so much as drawing a distinction. Everyone can have grievances over historical events. They are not useful in determining what the future should look like.

[dembotoz]

3. We did bomb the snot out of them

[rug]

6. And MacArthur was openly pushing for tactical nukes.

[jberryhill]

20. So?

Who was harmed by "MacArthur openly pushing for tactical nukes". He was also relieved of duty.

[rug]

35. Are you as sanguine about nukes when trump proposes it?

[jberryhill]

61. No, Trump is every bit as stupid as his counterpart

That doesn't make either one of them right, or sympathetic.

[Lurks Often]

34. The use of nukes back then didn't have the political and moral implications it does today

US military doctrine for decades allowed and planned for first use of tactical nukes. I am pretty certain NATO planned on first use of tactical nukes into the 1970's to stop or slow down a Warsaw Pact invasion.

[rug]

37. I'm sure thaty was comforting to Korea.

In any event, it was not doctrine during the Korean War

Pricr to 1953 there was no serious effort in the Army to cevelop
any organizational or doctrinal warfighting changes to accommodate
the employment of tactical nuclear weapons.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a240197.pdf

[former9thward]

42. You own link shows that tactical weapons just started to test in 1953

So it would make sense their was no doctrine before then.

[rug]

46. The doctrine did not develop until after the Korean War was suspended.

They came so close to using it that someone had the bright idea of suggesting they think it through.

In any event, Korea, the USSR, and the PRC all knew that the DPRK was an ongoing target of nuclear attack. As they've known it for the past 65 years.

[Lurks Often]

78. Yup, it was a brand new weapon and they didn't fully understand the

consequences in using them.

[Bucky]

5. Of course it was begun by an unprovoked attack by the North on the South

I mean, I feel bad about all those atrocities committed by US and UN troops. But they pale in comparison to those committed by the North Koreans.

[rug]

7. Both North ans South were cold war pawns.

It wasn't exactly Hitler invading Poland.

The Cold War ended but they're still pawns of a different sort.

[brooklynite]

47. Of course, some of those pawns have democratic freedom and prosperity...

[rug]

49. As much freedom as can be bought.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

8. Which is a real reason for caution while dealing with NK

Not making bellicose comments and provocative moves that help reinforce their paranoia. There's probably not much we can do about them either other than keeping them contained in concert with our Asian allies and hoping that the Kims all die off w/o successors and/or the people in NK rise up and take back their country from the Kims. But this gang currently in charge here in the US doesn't understand this, doesn't understand diplomacy, and what's worse, they've gutted the State Department to the point where it seems like nobody's home over there.

[rug]

10. trump's foreign policy lacks any sense of history and is based on who he thinks likes him.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

15. Trump's Presidency lacks any sense of........sense

Despite rattling sabers, he also has said that he wouldn't mind meeting with the current "Kim", which doesn't surprise me because I'd imagine that they would have a lot in common. Trump doesn't kill his opponents (yet) but he is a spoiled man child and thinks that he can do pretty much whatever he wants (and has an army of fawning enablers supporting his every action).

[rug]

17. .

[Lee-Lee]

13. Yeah, you don't get to be bitter about events in a war you started

That's like the schoolyard bully holding a grudge because he picks on someone who fights back and kicks his ass.

Especially when you look at how the North conducted itself. All these people circulating North Korea apologist memes as of late should study some of the accounts of how US POW's were treated by North Korea.

[rug]

19. Schoolyard analogies are a piss-poor basis for foreign policy involving nuclear weapons.

[jberryhill]

23. When those weapons are in the hands of children, they certainly are

[rug]

26. Neither Kim nor trump are children.

So they're not.

[jberryhill]

27. They certainly are

They both have clear developmental deficits.

[rug]

31. Analogizing trump to a person with "developmental" deficits is repugnant.

[jberryhill]

32. Too bad. He is not emotionally an adult

And that is as plainly obvious as is the fact that DPRK is an experiment in mass psycopathy.

[rug]

40. That's not a developmental deficit.

And you're a lousy armchair diagnostician.

[jberryhill]

43. I'm not any kind of psychologist at all, so how does that grab you?

But who gives a shit. My kids had more emotional maturity at eight years old than either of these two nitwits.

[rug]

44. I revel in the obvious.

[Lee-Lee]

25. Doesn't change the fact that North Korea started the war

Your gripes about how your were defeated don't have any validity when the fight was 100% a result of your own agrression.

[atreides1]

29. Question???

Why are you attempting to apply logic to a regime that doesn't use it???

[rug]

30. 100%? Read about the Mungyeong Massacre six months earlier.

Read about the actions of Syngman Rhee in the ensuing six months. Read about the hundreds of thousands sent to the Bodo League camps.

History is not written by Marvel Comics.

[jberryhill]

45. So fucking what

Yeah, and the Germans killed millions in concentration camps.

The war ended, treaties were signed. Done.

If Kim Dil Do wants to call it done, he can do so too.

But he is not threatening to nuke Seattle because of some shit that went down 70 years ago.

[rug]

48. Get a grip. Hundreds were killed in the months leading up to it.

Hundreds of thousands more were imprisoned.

That's so fucking what.

You can unwrap old copies of Bircher newsletters and say the evil,l pathological, inhuman North Koreans out of the blue invaded the peaceloving land of Samsung and Kia but you'd look ridiculous.

There's plenty of blame to go around as it is.

[jberryhill]

50. "Bircher newsletters"

Yeah, look. Lots of people died on both sides. That fact is not unusual to human history anywhere in the world. Oh, hell, we can never move forward as a country because of Andersonville or Sherman's march either, I suppose.

You know who else is dying and being tortured? People in the prison camps that the DPRK is running TODAY.



I guess maybe 70 years from now, someone will be pissed off about that.

[rug]

52. How many nukes do you think that calls for?

[jberryhill]

53. Ask your friend Kim

Since his family would rather build nukes than feed people.

[rug]

54. Ah, ducking the only answer with an ad hominem.

No wonder your cow is laughing.

[jberryhill]

55. It's a stupid question

Quite obviously no one has nuked North Korea.

But your rules of discussion, which are very much like the DPRK rules of discussion, is that you can fling poo like "You can unwrap old copies of Bircher newsletters", but a reply in kind is an ad hominem.

DPRK is in the business of killing its own people more effectively than anyone has done to them in two generations.

If your point is that they haz a sad over shit that happened 70 years ago, it's pretty obvious that I had nothing to do with it.

Within recent memory, they shelled the shit out of Yeonpyeong Island, killing people and injuring others for no good reason. When was the last time the US or anyone shelled their territory?

Oh, yeah, I forgot. The "retaliation" was an evacuation of the island they were shooting at.

[rug]

60. I didn't say you were a friend of Robert Welch.

Although everything you've just typed I've heard before years ago. It's just as jingoistic now as it was then.

[jberryhill]

62. What happened, did your concert tickets get lost in the mail?

Bummer that the Moranbong Band tour was cancelled, I know.

Speaking of being "sanguine" about nukes, I'm sure you've seen this on your hit parade, but still a classic (literally, since they cribbed it from Vivaldi's "Winter" from the Four Seasons)

[rug]

66. Yes. Has your objectivity gotten lost?

Oh, here's something for you to relive your glory days:

[jberryhill]

68. David Hasselhoff is an official spokesperson of the US?

That's news.

[rug]

69. My bad. I thought you'd like him.

I'll try again.

[uponit7771]

51. lofl - "Kim Dil Do" ... yaw crazy

[pangaia]

57. I am getting the feeling you do not like the North Korean government.

[jberryhill]

59. Depends

On policy, I give them a 0.

On hairstyles, I give them an 8.

On partying, definitely a 10:

[maryellen99]

14. If I was the Korean Peninsula right now,I'd be extremely worried

Trump is desperate for any distraction.

[rug]

24. I can't imagine they're not.

We made some type of psychological accommodation to the Cold War but then we never had a destabilizing ass in the White House during it. That includes Nixon.

[maryellen99]

28. I'm worried as well. He's desperate nt

[LexVegas]

33. Where has that gotten them? I don't give a shit if N. Korea hates the U.S. nt

[rug]

39. Since it dictatates U.S. foreign policy you should.

[LexVegas]

71. They are all talk. nt

[rug]

73. You're going to need a bigger ear.

[LexVegas]

75. Those people know what happened to them last time. That kind of ass whoopin' don't fade away. nt

[rug]

77. 37,000 dead, 129,000 wounded. U.S. military only.

Not counting civilians. Not counting nukes.

Nobody should be waving his dick around with those numbers. If Kim does, we shouldn't join him.

[brooklynite]

36. When you start a war, you really can't blame someone else for what happens.

[rug]

38. The war started long before June 25, 1950.

[pangaia]

63. I appreciate your views and knowledge of all this.

I have dear friends in South Korea. One fellow is about 40. His parents were both from the North. When the war 'broke out," (boy, there's a great phrase), before my friend was born, his father fled south to find work and then planned to return for his wife. But, he could not get back and his wife was trapped. He waited some 20 years. Then he finally re-married and my friend was born.

Several years ago father WAS allowed to return to look for his wife. She had died, as had his other son. His daughter was still living, maybe 60ish years old now ?... He had to return to the south without them.

My friend's father died one year ago.
It is all a very sad business.

[rug]

64. It's a mess. Dehumanizing the North won't help.

I don't know the answer but there must be one based on common humanity.

[pangaia]

74. true that.

My experience with the South Koreans I know is that they have lived with what we perhaps would consider a black cloud over their heads since the 1950's. But, they go about their daily lives, and leave the issues in its proper place.

Without wanting to make an over-generalization, but nevertheless doing so...They are some of the most emotionally and psychologically "well-balanced' group of people I have ever known... there is an acceptance of life, a quietness inside, a certain quality of non-attachment-- I mean to where they SEE the danger of attachment to something. Very energetic, creative, close to what we might call 'nature,' but they instinctively know there is no separation...

Most of then people I know, I must say, are musicians (some rather famous international concert artists included), dancers, couple of chefs, artistic types, but even the taxi drivers, cell phone store clerks,,,

Whenever I land at Incheon Airport, I gotta tell ya, I just feel something special, and whatever issues I may struggle with start to dissolve... a weight lifts,by the time I reach that welcoming terminal I'm in a different place.... and... ok enough..

I live in up-state NY, But thurs night Kyung-Wha Chung, the 69 year old legendary violinist, is playing ALL SIX Bach Sonatas and Partitas at Carnegie Hall !!! I'm flying down tomorrow afternoon. I would not miss that for the world !

[loyalsister]

56. Good point

When the answers to the questions "what happened to my grandfather, your grandfather, uncle, brother" is the they were killed by US forces, the power of the propaganda persists.
It has also been employed as an effective recruiting tool for middle eastern terrorists.

[rug]

58. Yes. Until we understand it, we're just flailing.

Ironically, the memory of North Koreans is as long as the memory of the mujahideen.

[malaise]

65. Message deleted by DU the Administrators

[rug]

67. Amen.

[EX500rider]

70. Message deleted by DU the Administrators

[rug]

72. Doubtless. They're all U.S. Allies. They all participated in the war under the UN Flag.

However, I would say the presence of Ethiopia and Luxembourg is somewhat less threatening than the U.S.

Wouldn't you?

[regnaD kciN]

76. "Don't forget Poland!"

Oh, sorry -- wrong war.