General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIn case anyone asks, Trump et al. are guilty of "18 U.S. Code 2384 - Seditious conspiracy"
18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy
The Law:
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States,
Conspire to
- overthrow,
- put down,
- or to destroy by force the Government of the United States,
- or to levy war against them,
- or to oppose by force the authority thereof,
- or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States,
- or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof,
they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
Trump campaign et al. conspired (colluded) with Russia to take information from the DNC and Hillary's campaign (which we know from Don Jr.'s admissions and emails) as well as to disrupt election systems in several states (which we know from all the intelligence agencies) in order to gain Trump's commitment to prevent or delay the execution of Russian sanctions (which we know from Flynn's conversations with Russia)
It is that simple and there is enough evidence now IN PUBLIC to indict.
Goodheart
(5,307 posts)The definition of "war" would have to be interpreted by the courts to also include cyber warfare.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)taking property and disrupting systems and delaying execution of laws that are all conveniently ORed together.
rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)I don't think so.
rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)"by force" if I hit you over the head, knock you out and take the keys out of your pocket, I took it "by force." How was the DNC, Podesta and Hillary stuff "property of the United States?"
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)And it is what Russia did in exchange for getting the promise of lifting sanctions by the Trump administration.
Furthermore, Property of the US would involve the networks that these information systems ran on. Nearly all information traveling across networks in this country flows through government owned infrastructure.
rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)So everything on the Internet, DU, the porn, eBay, Amazon, my emails and yours are "property of the United States?" Give me a break.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)"Pentagon has concluded that computer sabotage by another country could constitute an act of war"
rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)decide that.
bench scientist
(1,107 posts)the "or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, " seems the strongest.
rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)bench scientist
(1,107 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)If someone stole my wife's panties off the clothesline it would not be an act of force and computer hacking isn't either.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)Oh, and bite me.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)Because it's clear you know nothing of the topic.
rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)Squinch
(50,901 posts)bench scientist
(1,107 posts)seems like a good case for this.
Squinch
(50,901 posts)The legitimate government was not allowed to be elected and this sham piece of shit government was put in its place.
rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)In this instance if ICE has a warrant for someone I know and I lie and say he left the country, I hindered without force. If I knock the ICE guy on his ass so my acquaintance can make a break for it, that would be hindering with force.
YCHDT
(962 posts)rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)onenote
(42,531 posts)Breaking into your house is burglary, which is category of theft that is distinct from robbery, which is the category that involves taking property by physical force or threat of force.
onenote
(42,531 posts)The law distinguishes between different types of misappropriation of property.
"Theft" (or sometimes "larceny" or "stealing" is the term commonly used broadly to refer to the unauthorized taking of personal property with the intent not to return it.
"Robbery" is the term used to distinguish simple theft or larceny from theft that is accomplished through the use of physical force or fear of physical force (e.g., intimidation).
When the law talks about taking property by force, it is referring to physical force committed in the presence or near presence of the person whose property is misappropriated.
Sorry, but the OP's theory won't fly.
rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)The UN considers cyberattacks "use of force". Refer to stuxnet.
Ask Skinner of the election night hack on DU was a use of force.
Just because the means of force change over time, doesn't mean the law doesn't apply.
onenote
(42,531 posts)The reason that some legal experts consider the use of the stuxnet virus to attack Iran's nuclear program to be an act of "force" was that it was an attack designed to destroy or damage property. A cyberattack that kills or injures someone or destroys or damages property can be considered an act of force.
But that's a different situation from cybertheft that does not in a proximate way endanger life or property, but rather misappropriates it (and does so, unlike traditional theft, in a way that doesn't deprive the owner of the property of that property).
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)Russia hacked the election and in return for the promise to lift sanctions. Stuxnet also needed to infiltrate systems before it could do damage. We do not yet know the full damage to our election system but we do not information was purged and/or modified.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)Winning an elections as a goal doesn't seem to fit any of the charges listed.
Winning by affecting the opinions of voters doesn't seem to fit.
dee135
(4 posts)Our national sovereignty is something that we ask young men and woman to give their lives to preserve and protect. For President Trump to dismiss his (and his family) conspiring with a foreign nation as an acceptable political practice is an insult to all those serving in the military and their families!