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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSaudi police arrest model for wearing Skirt in Public.
Saudi Arabia is leading a propaganda campaign falsely accusing Qatar of supporting extremism in the Middle East, but it just arrested a young model named Khulud for taking a walk at a historic site in Najd wearing a halter and a skirt. The Saudi government insists, despite temperatures of 111 F. in the shade, that women cover themselves up in black robes.
That big black robe accompanied by a complete face veil, called a niqab, is actively forbidden in modern urban societies such as Egypt.
One of the reasons even Middle Eastern governments are afraid of the niqab is that it obscures identity. The state, as James Scott argued, wants its citizens to be transparent to it. Hence, the demand for a first and last name (that was imposed on Iran in the early 1930s by military dictator cum shah, Reza the Great). When somone is wearing a niqab you dont know their real gender or age. Guerrillas in Algeria during its war of independence from France used to fool the police by dressing as women in niqab. Youd be surprised what you can hide in those robes.
Making women non-transparent, as Saudi Arabia routinely does, renders them second class citizens.
The extremists who kill women and children in acts of terrorism first strip them of any human identity, which is easier if they are in essence already buried under a niqab and its robes.
The extremists who traffic in and enslave women, who beat and abuse them, are in part inspired by a Saudi/Wahhabi vision of gender relations. Women are erased in public, which therefore means woman are second class citizens. They cannot move around without a male guardian.
https://www.juancole.com/2017/07/slamming-extremism-arrests.html
cwydro
(51,308 posts)delisen
(6,042 posts)in foreign affairs.
An immediate response on the above is usually that America has often violated the human rights of people in other countries; or ignored violations for trade, resource access, or stability in international relations.
This is true--but it is not an excuse for continuing.
We also have a history of advancing human rights and now is the time to build on that history-not the oil drenched policies of the past.
We don't need the old oil policies of the past. We can survive and prosper on the modern alternatives.
Cicada
(4,533 posts)We arrest women for being topless. So are we really that superior to the Saudis?
Of course our punishment is mild. Hopefully that will be true in Saudi. If not I too will declare the Saudis monstrous.
HAB911
(8,867 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)Wow.
Cicada
(4,533 posts)And so too Saudi similarly suffers
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Women are not allowed to fucking DRIVE in Saudi. They can't even sit in the front seat of the car.
They cannot get a passport or travel without a male relative's permission.
Do NOT compare this country to that one. I'd say more, but never mind.
Cicada
(4,533 posts)But with respect to naughty clothing we have been a repeat offender. I just think we should see our hypocrisy in this limited area.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I just think we should also realize that degrees often create a relevant distinction in and of themselves.
You may believe the two are equitable, while others (myself included) believe the Saudi dress code is merely one indication of a larger bigotry against women, and that criticism of that bigotry is not hypocrisy.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I'm guessing you're a male.
And I do not approve of women or men being punished for what they wear. My point is that so long as we punish people for what they wear we do not have grounds to complain when others do the same thing.
The rules we have about clothing are only ARBITRARiLY different from the rules they have. In 1981 after I went to work for 2 months in Saudi Arabia I went jogging in shorts and a tee shirt. I was told I could not do that. So after that I jogged in long pants (I forget if I had to have long sleeves).
It is their country and they have the right to have their clothing rules. Just as in our country we have the right to have our - very similar - clothing rules.
I think such rules are stupid. They are stupid and we are stupid. To argue that we are enlightened and they are primitive when it comes to clothing rules is to be blind to the fact that we are pretty much the same in what we are doing.
It amuses me that many here do not see this obvious point.
Marengo
(3,477 posts)Cicada
(4,533 posts)There is virtually no public nudity in those countries where it is permitted because of social disapproval. Using the legal system to enforce something rare and harmless seems expensive for minimal gain.
I read about a religion in Borneo, I think, where eating bananas was taboo. Even though bananas grew wild in huge numbers everywhere. I think many of our sex related religious based rules are similarly stupid.
Marengo
(3,477 posts)Point.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)we have clothing rules for work (try to vary your clothes if in the military, or police, or a fireman.) Military rules also dictate haircuts and facial hair.
Our school district here has spelled out rules of student's clothing.
The LPGA just released new rules for their players. The PGA has had rules in place for years.
btw - I lived there for 4 years. My wife and I jogged frequently together - but she would always wear long pants and a long-sleeve shirt. We were frequently stopped by the mutawa (religious police). I would politely ask if it was ok if my wife walked . . . if so, why could she not run. She was dressed modestly so it never went further than that.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)perhaps a small distinction - but a significant one
yardwork
(61,539 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,294 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)Whataboutism. Excellent.
I needed the smile. You are so right
Ilsa
(61,690 posts)the mode of dress in Europe, etc. Do you think if SA repealed their burka & niqab laws, women would be able to change their public dress? I think it would take decades, multiple generations, to get men to release that level of control over women.