Pardon me? So all of this investigation can be stopped dead in its track by drump pardoning

[Liberal In Red State]

himself and his cohorts? Really? That's what I am reading everywhere today. So we can spin our wheels to confirm he colluded with a foreign country to gain access to the White House, sell our country and its secrets to the highest bidder, and he can just say "I'm pardoning myself and my family . . . moving on to other matters" REALLY!?!?!?!?!

[Shell_Seas]

1. I don't think anyone really knows.

There isn't a law written about this, it's not in the constitution, and it's never happened before.

Hence why everyone keeps talking about how we are approaching a constitutional crisis.

[NCTraveler]

2. It's not as simple as a "move on" ordeal.

This would cause a pretty serious uproar.

[Eliot Rosewater]

14. What happens to Trump is really secondary (though if he skates I will be furious)

what matters is the GOP is supporting a traitor.

Nowhere to go from there.

[NCTraveler]

15. "the GOP is supporting a traitor. "

I don't think we can talk about that in absolute terms. A number of them have already shown they won't be a rubber stamp for Trump. That could get worse.

[PoliticAverse]

3. It's rather unlikely that the courts will find that the President can pardon himself. n/t

[jmg257]

4. I think you have to actually be charged/convited before you can be pardoned.

Sort of goes with the definition of "pardon".

[KT2000]

6. Nixon was pre-pardoned n/t

[unblock]

8. no, undocumented immigrants have been pardoned, as was nixon.

you can be pardoned at any point after the violation of law.

[jmg257]

16. Cool- thanks, you 2!

[davekriss]

21. It does mean, though, admission of guilt

[unblock]

23. Not until the grantee actually uses it in court

If potus pardons someone without their consent, the pardoned person obviously hasn't admitted anything. They might not even be aware of it.

Heck, pardons can be granted posthumously. The dead admit nothing.

[davekriss]

24. You are correct

[Brother Buzz]

17. Carter pardoned draft dodgers

Most were neither charged nor convicted.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/carter-pardons-draft-dodgers

[C_U_L8R]

5. It's an admission of guilt

And he'd be impeached. Even by Republicans.

[unblock]

11. legally, granting a pardon isn't an admission of guilt, but actually using it is.

so nixon never admitted to any crimes. had the federal government charged him with something, and nixon gone to court and presented his pardon, that would technically be an admission of guilt. but of course, knowing he had a pardon, the federal government never bothered to indict him.

politically, though, a president pardoning his inner circle and family and even trying to pardon himself would certainly carry a big stinking sulfurous stench of guilt. but of course, fakesnews will simply say he's stopping a witch hunt....

[davekriss]

22. I wouldn't count on that

The current Repub congress answers to no one except their rich sponsors and themselves.

[freddyvh]

7. a friend emailed me this

to receive a presidential pardon, you must admit guilt first.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/236/79/case.html

i don't understand "legalese", so i don't understand the link.

if this is true, the question is....can a pardoned president be impeached?
is there a "high crime or misdemeanor"?

[unblock]

12. a pardon can't stop the impeachment process; that's explicit in the constitution.

as for admitting guilt, the pardon isn't effective until the person it's granted to accepts and uses it. that act is an admission of guilt, because you're saying to the court, this pardon says you can't punish me for violating the law that i violated. if you're insisting you never violated the law, then the pardon wouldn't apply.

[KT2000]

9. Jeremy Bash said -

the investigation began with the national security threat by Russia. tRump is involved because he may have colluded with Russia. He is under scrutiny for quid pro quo. The national security investigation would continue whether or not trump and his minions were criminally charged and/or pardoned.

But of course he could engineer the firing of anyone appointed to investigate the national security threat, therefore assuring Russia controls our elections.
This would be where there would be a really good case for treason.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

10. Here is some great info I found on Twitter

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[unblock]

13. pardons must be presented to be *legally* effective in court; *however*

the federal government would naturally chose not to pursue an indictment against anyone they knew had a pardon. for example, they never bothered to charge nixon after ford pardoned him. technically, nixon never accepted it, but because the federal government dropped any case against him, he never had to. no court ever recognized the pardon because no court ever saw any charge against him.

similarly, if benedict donald announces pardons for his whole crime family, what attorney general would spend months building a case against them when it would get tossed out in under 10 minutes?

[Vinca]

19. That's interesting because money laundering must violate state banking regs.

So if they take a pardon on federal charges which admits guilt, they would be sunk in a state case.

[rock]

18. I don't think so

There's a little matter of state crimes which there may be plenty of evidence for. And Trump cannot pardon himself. There's even good arguments that he cannot pardon family (it certainly doesn't occur in other circumstances).

[Worktodo]

20. Pardoning and pleading the fifth

Trump pardons person X. Then person X can either a) decline the pardon, or b) accept it. Accepting the pardon means they can't be charged with a crime (and here's where I'm foggy because that applies at the federal level only?) and potentially could be held in contempt if they refused to testify.

Second:

Let's say the president steals a ham sandwich and then lies to the FBI about having done so. Lying to the FBI is a federal offense. After leaving office security camera footage emerges and he is prosecuted. Could he have pardoned himself prior to leaving office? I think yes. The constitution's limit on pardon power only means the President can't dodge impeachment by Congress.


Gerald Ford pardoned Nixon for any crimes between two dates (who knows what else he did?). Would it be possible to restrict a pardon cleverly to gum up the courts? Possibly.


A pardon is a public act with political consequences.


Anyway I just think this is a great place heading into the Mid-Season Finale of Trump Season 1. So many unanswered questions!