Can Mueller subpoena the tax returns directly from IRS,

[MoonRiver]

or does he have to get them through Chump?

[CincyDem]

1. Most likely yes.

There appears to be some question as to the specific mechanism but the outcome is the same. Some argue the Special Counsel has the authority to request it directly from the IRS. Other's argue that the order has to come from a federal judge. Immaterial point and nobody is arguing that he needs Trump's permission.

[MoonRiver]

4. So, just clarifying, he does NOT need Chump's permission?

What if the idiot just refuses to hand them over? Can his lawyers tie up the matter indefinitely?

I ask because, to me, these returns are key to the whole case. I think the evidence of collusion and worse is right there.

[Cicada]

9. Tax returns report income and loss, not motivations

Collusion: give us dirt on Hillary and I will lift sanctions.

That doesn't get reported on a tax return. Interest paid to Russians would be reported but that only shows possible motive to be nice to Russians.

The tax returns can show income from Russians known to have illegal income they need to convert to "clean" money, such as ownership of a Trump apartment. But it is hard to prove Trump knew the funds arose from crime.

I'm not counting on convictions. The only real solution is to vote him out in 2018.

[CincyDem]

12. I believe there is a path for Mueller to obtain Trump's tax returns without Trump's permission.

This isn't about Trump physically handing them over. This is about the IRS releasing the filed returns directly to Mueller.

In any case that requires tax returns as evidence, the only returns that would be trusted as "true" would be provided by the IRS. There's a form you can fill out to release your returns if that's to your benefit but the attorney's would get a certified copy from the IRS. Same if you're buying property and the lender needs proof of income. Sometimes your company's info is sufficient but some want your prior year tax returns - so ya sign the form.

The reason is obviously because it's the only source that can be trusted to deliver the returns you filed. Had a friend that went through an ugly divorce. They had to provide each other with tax returns to balance support annually. Something didn't make sense about his over a couple years and they went to court, got the IRS returns and voila - the copy being shared wasn't what was actually filed. That got messy.

[Sienna86]

2. Yes

That's how it's done.

[madaboutharry]

3. With an order from a Ferderal judge.

And Mueller can get them without Trump even knowing.

I wouldn't be surprised if he already had them.

[MoonRiver]

5. Thanks

[Catmusicfan]

6. It would explain why they are following the money.

[Gabi Hayes]

7. Hence the pardon palaver

KT Tur likes alliteration

[dalton99a]

8. "veteran federal prosecutors said it could all take place in a matter of hours"

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/31/could-the-russia-investigation-reveal-trumps-tax-returns-215212

A broadly worded provision of the Internal Revenue Code gives Mueller, who acts with the authority of the Justice Department in his new post, the ability to obtain the returns from the IRS if he can demonstrate to a federal judge that there is “reasonable cause to believe, based upon information believed to be reliable, that a specific criminal act has been committed” and that the returns “may be relevant” to the investigation. Under the law, there is no requirement that the subject of the investigation—in this case, Trump—even be notified of the court order to IRS. The move does not require a formal subpoena or the action of a grand jury; veteran federal prosecutors said it could all take place in a matter of hours.

[MoonRiver]

11. Great info, thanks!

[annabanana]

10. He may already have them . . . .n/t

[CincyDem]

14. He likely has 2015 and prior...what he doesn't have is 2016.

2016 K-1 reports (LLC filings) are due 9/15 and Trump's 1040 is due 10/15. I think Trump is starting to get a glimpse into those numbers now and they're incriminating. He needs Mueller gone before Mueller gets the last piece of the puzzle.

Al Capone taught crime families they can cheat the public, they can cheat each other but they can't cheat Uncle Sam. Trump may be an idiot but I can't believe he's going to play games with income tax evasion.

[beachbum bob]

13. yes. Its a federal investigation