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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWomans Brilliant Analogy Sums Up The Insidiousness Of Victim Blaming
One woman’s powerful message about victim blaming has gone viral.
On July 19, 22-year-old Bree Wiseman posted a photo to Facebook of her adorable dog obediently sitting next to a plate of food. At first glance, the photo looks like your run-of-the-mill cute pet post, but a closer look reveals something much more powerful.
“To the people that say women get raped due to the way they are dressed,” Wiseman wrote in the caption. “This is my dog. His favorite food is steak. He is eye level with my plate. He won’t get any closer because I told him no. If a dog is better behaved than you are, you need to reevaluate your life. Feel free to share, my dog is adorable.”
snip//
“If a 4-year-old pit bull understands the word ‘no,’ even though he is looking at something he wants so bad he is literally drooling, then adults should understand ‘no,’ no matter how the other adult is dressed. Appearances shouldn’t make any difference in sexual assault cases,” she said, adding, ”How is it that a simple-minded animal has the ability to understand better than a large part of the adult population?”
Read More:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/womans-brilliant-analogy-sums-up-the-insidiousness-of-victim-blaming_us_5979fb39e4b0da64e87739ed?q1&ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009
This is brilliant, so simple a 4 year old dog understands that no means no!
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Liberal Jesus Freak
(1,451 posts)...and it brought me to tears. So simple, so brilliant.
sheshe2
(83,746 posts)No means no.
GeoWilliam750
(2,522 posts)
sheshe2
(83,746 posts)Thank you Geo.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Is it they just want to wear whatever they want wherever they want?
Do they just want people to stop pointing out that some guys are worse than dogs and so it is unsafe to wear certain clothing around them?
Do they want to just pretend that if they just make enough noise criminals won't be criminals?
What is the end game here?
Just curious.
lostnfound
(16,176 posts)They don't want judges to let rapists off the hook for dumb reasons.
And they want enablers to recognize the absurdity of excusing despicable behavior.
The end of slavery didn't start with slavers being convinced that slaveholding was wrong, but it did start with the conscience of enablers being awoken. Eyes opened by Harriet Beecher Stowe and Uncle Tom's Cabin or Mark Twain.
The arc of justice needs allies. ."Be an ally, not an enabler" is the message.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Or are they "just doing their job" when they employ such a defense?
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)
Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,848 posts)yeah, they should be able to wear whatever they want wherever they want.
If it were the case that only scantily clad young women were ever raped, then maybe the "how she was dressed" defense would have some merit. But given that men rape women regardless of how they're dressed, rape pre-adolescent girls as well as babies, women well into their elderhood, the "how she was dressed" claim is meaningless. Not to mention the guys who are triggered by how a woman is dressed don't exactly make that known. They don't carry a sign that says, "I rape scantily clad teens". That would be helpful, perhaps, but they don't.
The problem with rape is a problem of men, not women. Men who don't want to take responsibility for their actions, who want to say "It's HER fault!!!" rather than exercising a bit of self-control over themselves.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)I am also quite sure there are assholes out there that think she deserved it because...a.b.c
That said the reality is some males are worse than dogs. They just are. No amount of peer pressure will change that to any extent. They are flawed individuals.
While I wish women or anyone could wear whatever they want whenever they want. Some flawed people are triggered by clothing.
Much better in my mind to recognize that and do what you can to ensure you are safe than to just pretend that because you should be able to wear whatever you want it is safe to do so.
I am sure people will try to call that victim blaming but I don't see it that way any more than I would think a diving instructor was victim blaming if they said you should not dive around sharks with open wounds.
There is no excuse for rape period. Not is there any excuse for any number of crimes yet they continue to happen. The human race is a flawed and despicable life form
We may want to pretend we can change that but our entire history would argue otherwise.
I guess what bother me about these sorts of posts as a guy with a young daughter is they seem to want to be about what is right instead of what is.
I know I will not be telling my daughter she should wear whatever she wants whenever she wants. I will be teaching her that some men are worse than dogs and while it sucks it is reality and that she should do whatever she can to protect herself including paying attention to her surroundings and eliminating risks where possible.
I agree with the person who posted the pic of her dog that men should be better..the problem is they aren't. Like her dog some are great but at the same time try that with another dog and they will probably eat the steak.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,848 posts)How will you warn your daughter to dress given that there are men who will attack a women no matter how she is dressed? Yes, teach her that some men are completely despicable.
I also hope you speak up when in the company of men, especially when they start making jokes that demean women. Double especially if they make rape jokes.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)I did read a study on clothing and rape after responding in this thread and it will have an impact on my talks with my daughter.
I am desperately trying to raise her with a strong sense of self worth and Independence. Based on the studies I read today that sense of self worth and Independence may go further than anything else in helping to protect her.
I think a part of that self worth and Independence includes wearing whatever clothing she wishes to.
That said as a guy I am certainly sexually attracted more to some clothes than others and despite the studies I read on rapists know how they affect me. I will definitely make sure she understands that.
That is in no way to say that clothing is an excuse for rape or unwanted attention. It is only meant to make sure she understands the effects it can have on young men and to try to make sure she takes care to be aware of her surroundings and the people around her.
As a bottom line clothing in and of itself may not be the motivation for rape but rape is a pretty low bar. A guy who would never dream of rape might think nothing of groping or other unwanted attention.
Denying the effects of clothing I think is a fools errand. Simply based on my own experience with myself. A girl in a bikini is going to catch my eye much faster than a girl in jeans and a blouse.
We are all sexual creatures and trying to deny that sexuality has no effect seems ridiculous to me. Might be my own personal bias but then I am not nor will I ever be a rapist. It is entirely possible that someone who is a rapist is motivated by different things.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)with your feelings as a father about a valid but limited message.
But, I'm curious. What DID you find out? Does clothing compare at all as a factor to LOCATION?
Or does location, being in the wrong place, at the wrong time, with the wrong people, far, far, far outweigh clothing? As a father and sensible man, you know the answer of course.
I entirely agree with both the OP and with you in saying what I'm copying below.
But, the pretence that how women dress is as significant, and more, than all other much more important, real-world, factors comes to us via social/religious conservatives who want to confine women to what they consider traditional roles. "Good" women, to be protected. Harlots who deserve whatever happens to them.
And of course, many of this subgroup decide who are the good women and who deserve what they're "asking for" at a glance by how they dress. Maybe warn your daughter about these potentially dangerous people to NOT hang with? Identifying social conservative males hostile to modern female behaviors isn't all that hard when you know what to look for.
I know I will not be telling my daughter she should wear whatever she wants whenever she wants. I will be teaching her that some men are worse than dogs and while it sucks it is reality and that she should do whatever she can to protect herself including paying attention to her surroundings and eliminating risks where possible.
I agree with the person who posted the pic of her dog that men should be better..the problem is they aren't. Like her dog some are great but at the same time try that with another dog and they will probably eat the steak.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)are human beings with a right to wear what is pleasing to them without some salacious comments or men stalking, groping, grabbing as that boy who is president encouraged. Yes a woman or girl can have a sense of self worth, self respect and independence NO MATTER the clothes worn. Men are attracted to women, women are attracted to men, fact of nature, yet relating to sexual desire, IF a man feels that way on encountering another human being, I think he should keep it to himself until nature works out the situation in a manner favorable to both parties. To me it's as simple as that. "Your "young men" and even my old ass must keep our "sexuality" based on us being "sexual creatures" in perspective and civil. Denial has nothing to do with us respecting another human being as having rights to her own body and loving themselves. No matter the clothes worn. I live in a college town.
sheshe2
(83,746 posts)yardwork
(61,598 posts)Nothing at all. Sexual attraction does not lead to rape.
Rape is a crime of violence perpetrated by people who want to do violence against another person.
Rape is not triggered by sexual attraction.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I'm finding certain posts in this thread absolutely unbelievable.
yardwork
(61,598 posts)A lot of people don't understand the difference between sexual attraction and rape. The rapists take full advantage of that confusion.
sheshe2
(83,746 posts)sheshe2
(83,746 posts)Well first, Egnever let's make something clear. Rape is never a game. It is a vicious assault against women. It is a crime where the victim is many times assaulted a second time by defense attorneys and judges. The victims are assaulted on social media as well. They deserved it! Look how they dressed is bullshit.
I am curious what people who write these kinds of things are looking for
Is it they just want to wear whatever they want wherever they want?
Do they just want people to stop pointing out that some guys are worse than dogs and so it is unsafe to wear certain clothing around them?
Do they want to just pretend that if they just make enough noise criminals won't be criminals?
I have no clue your need to even ask this, heartbreaking that you are. Women want to be recognized as human beings not an object or a toy. We want respect and the freedom to speak as we want, dress as we wish and be considered an equal. And when we say no, we mean no.
The dog understands that.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)You want that and I want that for you but reality is stuck right in the middle of what you and I want.
That dog won't eat the steak. Try it with another dog and that steak is gone. That is reality.
I would love for you to have full equality but when it comes to rape it is about power and in the vast majority of cases when it comes to power the scales just are not equal. They just aren't.
There will never be equality between men and women when it comes to raw power.
Pretending otherwise is setting yourself up for failure. Much better to recognize there will never be that equality and act and prepare accordingly. Pretending that the most important aspect of rape the power is equal is dangerous in my mind.
As a species where are driven by sex on a fundamental level. Practically every thing we do is driven by it in one way or another.
I agree that it is important to educate as many people as possible so that our society is monolithic in it's condemnation of rape but I think pretending that if everyone just agreed rape was wrong it wouldn't happen is delusional.
ck4829
(35,064 posts)The notion of getting others to do what you want?
To me, then, it sounds like men who don't rape have the capacity for more power than men who can't help themselves and feel like they have to sexually assault women.
If the latter group is doing something because of a simple destructive urge, then people have to use their superior power to condemn and sanction this group.
ismnotwasm
(41,976 posts)Interesting you bring up dogs--one of many creatures that do dry humping to demonstrate dominance. If a woman has a gun and is very able and quite willing to use it, what does that do to the concept of greater physical strength? There are numbers of ways to level the playing field of strength. Perhaps that's why we saw a rise in drugging women at bars, at parties, anywhere a rapist could. What's also interesting is the additude of the culture surrounding these kind of rapes. I'll guarantee you are doing your daughter a disservice telling her she will be safer based on how she's dressed. That's patently ridiculous, and panders to the culture that makes rape acceptable and continues to shame women for getting raped
I don't know how old your daughter is, but there will also come a time when she's not going to listen to everything you say. If she wears revealing clothing or decides to work as a sex worker and gets raped, who will you blame?
As far as sex--who gets to define it? Do you think a women who has been raped thinks she had sex?
NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)NOT about sex. Power. Yes, of course sex enters into it, but only as a way of establishing control and power. Dress has nothing to do with that. A woman can be wearing a burka and she'd be potentially as vulnerable as a woman in a miniskirt.
ck4829
(35,064 posts)What defines power and sexuality are fluid concepts that are ever-constructed.
niyad
(113,274 posts)
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)Sure, the dog wants the steak, but it respects the owner. Rapists don't respect the women they rape. Just the opposite.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)It does have to do with what you wear. Hookers and strippers dress like they do for a reason. If it didn't matter they would be indistinguishable from anyone else.
They dress scantily because it evokes behavior in the men they are trying to attract.
If clothing had no effect on people there would not be huge industries dedicated to making clothing that is fashionable.
The problem is the men to be sure but clothing can absolutely provoke the men that are predisposed to rape in the first place.
sheshe2
(83,746 posts)It comes down to the fact, no matter how they dress some feel that is their privilege to take what they want.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Maybe grandma was mean to them as a child.
Who the fuck knows.
Just because people are sexually attracted to different things does not mean that clothing does not evoke sexual feelings in people and when that happens around a dog that isn't as well behaved as the dog that doesn't eat your steak you get bit.
Not the woman's fault to be sure.
Pretending clothing means nothing is outright dangerous.
You suggest sack cloth and Burkas as the only way to stop a mans uncontrolled lust? Give me a break. Men need to get a grip. Guess Viagra should not be free under the GOP heath plan since they are unable to control themselves.
..........................................
A Recent History of Republicans Talking About Rape
http://images.gawker.com/17xhlz0hugzqnjpg/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800.jpg
Egnever
(21,506 posts)That pretending you can do anything you want and won't be raped because ... equality ...is delusional.
ck4829
(35,064 posts)Blaming the victim narratives that are pushed in major cultural, media, and political events only serve to support dominant narratives, the status quo, blaming the disadvantaged for their position, etc.
It's not your friend.
ismnotwasm
(41,976 posts)What century am I in?
JHan
(10,173 posts)when conservatively dressed women get assaulted just as often as women who are "provocatively" dressed - and "provocative" spans a spectrum depending on the perverse subjective view of the only person at fault here- the RAPIST.
A rapist would use any excuse for provocation , even if it's the slightest hint of cleavage, or even if a woman is fully clothed.
Elderly women who are fully clothed get raped, and the research suggests that rapists don't select a woman to rape based on her sexual attractiveness or a bare leg or breasts, but how vulnerable she is and their own sadism. Some rapists even select a conservative woman because they see them as more conventional, thus more submissive.
It's 2017, let's do away with the antiquated sexist nonsense please.
I am arguing that provocative clothing is in fact provocative.
I am more than happy to see the study that says rape happens equally often regardless of clothes or age or attractiveness.
I look forward to seeing it.
If that is true and I have to say I highly doubt it. Then that points to a mental dysfunction instead of a lack of understanding that it is wrong and all off this dog stuff is complete nonsense anyway.
JHan
(10,173 posts)No really?
Your argument is "they looked for it"- there are thousands upon thousands of cases where the rape victim was fully clothed, rape victims span all ages, even gender ( men get raped too, don't you know?), sizes, class, color....-
And your rationalizations in this thread is why there's institutional sexism, where a judge could look at a victim and say "She looked for it" , she "was out too late", her "skirt was too short" and any number of rationalizations to place the blame on the victim.
And if you were really interested, look for what I got - FIRST RESULT IN GOOGLE: https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200901/marked-mayhem
Egnever
(21,506 posts)It is arguing exactly what I am. Criminals are attracted to victims by a variety of things and clothing is one of those things.
Thanks for providing the link to back it up even if that was not your intention.
JHan
(10,173 posts)that is from the same link you claim you read.
sheshe2
(83,746 posts)I am thrilled, Jhan. Women and POC finally have equality. Yes! We finally achieved the ultimate prize. We are now raped equally. We did it girl, we grabbed that ring. Yes! We are now equals under the law! Young, old, POC we are equal.
Here...fug anyone else.
Stand by me~
Egnever
(21,506 posts)I stopped before your quote.
I have since read a study on it and appears that contrary to my belief that provocative clothing is a factor it is apparently often the opposite.
I was wrong in my assumption.
It appears that submissiveness is much more a factor and that in fact conservative clothing can signal submissiveness as much if not more.
That said my main point is that these folks are predators not trained dogs. This is a mental deficiency that is not solved by slogans or memes.
I do agree that too many get away with it because people think they were "asking" for it and if that is what this is directed at the folks that excuse it based on clothing then education is effective.
What I don't think is that it will stop any rapes. Rapes are done by people that are flawed in my opinion. The same as pedophiles. Training and incarceration I do not believe will change them.
I think it is vitally important that the dangers are acknowledged realistically and not in terms of how it should be.
I was wrong about clothing being as big as a factor as I thought and surprised to discover that provocative clothing may in fact decrease your chances because it tends to project confidence.
What I am trying ham-handed to say is that I am wary of messages that if we just teach people it is wrong it will go away. I don't believe that for a second and think it is dangerous.
If the intention is to affect what goes on after the rape then I am much more receptive to it. Those people are reachable the rapist I don't think is.
JHan
(10,173 posts)...I accept it is a very simplistic analogy however, but it is about consent and boundaries- ( and the importance of being taught those boundaries).
That pathological men cannot help themselves, thus women must somehow anticipate the impulses of men and adapt, is the sort of rape affirming toxic thinking that puts women in danger in their communities, and it is deeply insulting to men. It also affects how women navigate the public space, what is expected of us and what is allowed and excused from men.
Placing victims in categories - those who supposedly invite it and those who don't, because violent male behavior is normalized - morphs rape into violence where the rapist only faces the full brunt of moral condemnation once certain conditions are met . If the issue becomes what the woman wore, whether she was drunk,whether she was not in control of her faculties,or any number of other arbitrary reasons, all bets are off in the way she is seen and treated, even by law enforcement. However if the predator selects the "wrong" target, someone society thinks didn't deserve it, the difference couldn't be more clear. The trauma is no less for these women who follow society's rules and still get raped ........ rape is rape. And when you think about it, this same selective outrage regarding rape is seen in the way prison rape is talked about - laughed at, and even applauded because the victim is a criminal.
The discomforting corollary to all of this, is how decent people in society support these toxic ideas..men AND women, so it's no surprise then that individuals who are angry, entitled, misogynistic and pathological feel free to selectively prey who they wish, without fear of much reprisal depending on the circumstances.
Response to JHan (Reply #18)
chowder66 This message was self-deleted by its author.
JHan
(10,173 posts)Your experience shows this. So many women have experienced sexual trauma , sexual harassment , regardless of their age, what they were wearing , where they were...
In another reply in this thread I pointed to the harm of placing victims in categories - those who supposedly invite rape and harassment and those who don't. Violent male behavior is so normalized it sometimes morphs rape into violence where the rapist only faces the full brunt of moral condemnation once certain conditions are met. Society expresses selective outrage depending on who the victim is and the circumstances of their rape.
chowder66
(9,067 posts)according to the psychology article posted.... there are categories... but they are from the perspective of the criminal and show that dress doesn't matter.
There are those men that think dress does matter (incorrectly) and use it as a pass to TRY to get away with abhorrent behavior or unwanted behavior. That's a problem in and of itself. These men may not go to the extremes but it could lead down a path to more dangerous acts.
But those categories also exist in society. There's selective outrage, and in some instances victim blaming if the victim didn't meet certain standards - e.g. she was dressed "provocatively" or she was drunk etc. Predators pick up on these toxic social clues , and selectively choose who to victimize, in some cases with full knowledge that they won't be subjected to harsh judgement because of their actions. Just last year, cases where judges exercised leniency on the perp because they were "young and promising" - usually young white males -made U.S national headlines.. . Class, the perceived virtue of the victim, and a bunch of other arbitrary factors lead to victim blaming and perpetuates toxic rape affirming attitudes, enabling violence. Sometimes toxic social attitudes enable pathologies, what you describe is an example of that...
What's interesting for me, personally, is that I never assume I will be safe in the public space, sad thing is depending on circumstances I may be judged because of how late I'm out, if I'm alone, what I'm wearing - this reality ends up being an added layer of shame which further traumatizes a victim.
sheshe2
(83,746 posts)I am more than happy to see the study that says rape happens equally often regardless of clothes or age or attractiveness."
You need to stop now please. Please stop. Read what you just said.
I QUOTE!
"
I am more than happy to see the study that says rape happens equally often regardless of clothes or age or attractiveness."
YOU ARE MORE THAN HAPPY TO SEE THAT RAPE HAPPENS EQUALLY OFTEN REGARDLESS OF CLOTHES OR AGE OR ATTRACTIVENESS
You are more than happy about this??? Are you serious? This makes you happy?
Holy shit. Rape is not a happy thing. Oh my, women finally found equality. We got it by being raped. I guess we are equally raped under the law.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Without complete dishonesty from you.
sheshe2
(83,746 posts)Were you the alerter?
melman
(7,681 posts)You deliberately took a line out of context to make it seem like the poster said something they didn't say.
Why?
sheshe2
(83,746 posts)Here is more.
Violence Against Women in the United States: Statistics
Despite the fact that advocacy groups like NOW have worked for over three decades to halt the epidemic of gender-based violence and sexual assault, the numbers are still shocking. It is time to renew our national pledge, from the President and Congress on down to City Councils all across the nation to END violence against women and men, girls and boys. This effort must also be carried on in workplaces, schools, churches, locker rooms, the military, and in courtrooms, law enforcement, entertainment and the media. NOW pledges to continue our work to end this violence and we hope you will join us in our work.
.........................................
SEXUAL VIOLENCE
According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, which includes crimes that were not reported to the police, 232,960 women in the U.S. were raped or sexually assaulted in 2006. That’s more than 600 women every day. Other estimates, such as those generated by the FBI, are much lower because they rely on data from law enforcement agencies. A significant number of crimes are never even reported for reasons that include the victim’s feeling that nothing can/will be done and the personal nature of the incident.
More http://now.org/resource/violence-against-women-in-the-united-states-statistic/
I will ask you a question Melman.
Why? Why would you want our voices silenced?> Why?
Why is our voice not heard and why did you try to silence me on a Democratic board?
We are your mothers, we are your sisters and we are beautiful creatures.
hunter
(38,311 posts)Provocative is what happens in your head, not the clothing.
It's ordinary human decency to see only what the wearer of said clothing, or no clothing at all, wants you to see. Even if it might be "Look at me! I'm hot!" That's where it stops.
Nobody wears clothing or no clothing asking to be groped or raped.
It's the difference between the people running around on the nude beach having fun playing in the surf, and the creepy people hiding in the bushes with the long lens cameras.
(Yes I have frolicked on nude beaches, and yes I used to be hot.)
For example, the disgusting orange turd in the white house is one of the creepy groping raping guys.
lapucelle
(18,252 posts)They might otherwise provoke thieves.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)It is the difference in the creepy people on the beach and the ones in the bushes.
The ones in the bushes are the folks I am worried about not the ones on the beach.
sheshe2
(83,746 posts)sarge43
(28,941 posts)Rape is an act of domination, humiliation and, as you say, sadism.
Me.
(35,454 posts)From your words and the use of evoke and provoke you do seem to think it's the responsibility of the victim to not 'evoke' violent behavior. That is why some countries have women wear burqas because men cannot control themselves. They must be covered from head to toe with only a peephole for vision. They will sweat and get dizzy under the weight and heat of the garment but the wearing of the garment will ensure that no men’s behavior will be evoked because they look so frightful and scary.
Clothing doesn’t provoke men into violence something in them does. For rape is a crime of power/submission without consent and trying to make a point that a woman wearing, say a bikini, opens herself up to sexual assault is so far off the mark but the reason why a person like swimmer Brock gets scant punishment and those around him feel it is unfair.
Thank you.
Me.
(35,454 posts)and other mid-eastern countries despite how the woman is dressed and she, the victim is often the one punished.... for provoking the rape.
And one has to wonder what clothing little girls were wearing to provoke their rape.
the provocative Burkas. The little girls and the 80 year old women. How dare they dress to incite a man. A man that seems to be unable to control his impulses. I am pretty sure I know who has issues and it is not the woman.
Lyricalinklines
(367 posts)Nurses wear scrubs.
Lawyers wear formal business attire.
Police wear uniforms.
Most everyones clothing style and work can be linked.
No one dresses intending to be raped.
Predisposition is not an excuse to blame the victim.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)There is no excuse for the rapist.
yardwork
(61,598 posts)
lapucelle
(18,252 posts)It is this kind of thinking that provided the impetus behind the Slut Walk movement.
http://slutwalknyc.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk#External_links
sheshe2
(83,746 posts)No matter who you are
No matter where you work
No matter how you identify
No matter how you flirt
No matter what you wear
No matter whom you choose to love
No matter what you said before:
NO ONE has the right to touch you without your consent. SlutWalk NYC is part of a worldwide grassroots movement challenging rape culture, victim-blaming and slut-shaming, and working to end sexual and domestic violence.
http://slutwalknyc.com/
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)the rapists, it is a power move, rape is not a crime of passion, it is a crime of violence.
sheshe2
(83,746 posts)sheshe2
(83,746 posts)Gothmog
(145,130 posts)
Girard442
(6,070 posts)It pisses me off to no end that dirtbags shaped liked men have sowed seeds of suspicion and fear and mistrust into human relations everywhere.