Punching Nazis feels good, but it's a selfish act, not something that leads to victory

[geek tragedy]

Nazis don't get defeated by street brawls. That's precisely how they rise to power.

They do get defeated by nonviolent resistance by a much larger mass of people. (that is, within a society/government).

Certainly people who punch Nazis are not anywhere nearly as bad as the Nazis they're punching. But they're also making things worse and directly feeding into the dynamic the Nazis are trying to create.

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. Whatever..

Notice how nazi events are being canceled and that cantwell or whatever that asshole's name is is in tears and fears?

These bastards can only understand force or the threat of force. Fuck them.

[obamanut2012]

15. THIS

[Lunabell]

44. Yes!

You can't fight fire with niceness. The only thing they understand is violence.

[Adrahil]

2. The last time Nazis came to power, it took a LOT of violence to defeat them.

Here's a true story.... I've replicated this another source, but this is about me.

I thought the time when this story was relevant to be long passed. But apparently not, so here goes.
In October 1979, I was in 8th grade and my sister was in the high school marching band. We were in Baltimore because my sister and her band were in a Columbus Day parade. During the parade, a neo-Nazi was coming through the crowd and passing out fliers. I can still picture him. Shaved head, with a flat cap, and a big, waxed handlebar mustache. As he passed out the fliers, most people just crumpled them up and tossed them on the ground. But not my mom.

Ya see, my mom was born in Berlin, Germany in 1938. I still have her "little brown book." It's a sort of birth certificate/official papers. It's naturally covered with the eagle of the Third Reich and swastikas. Her childhood was hell, to put it mildly. And she harbored a deep and abiding hatred of Nazis.

So as this guy handed her a flier, my mom began to see red. Her face turned red from the neck up. Her eyes went wide. And she turned her 5' 2" frame around and popped this guy right in the nose. This guy grabs his now-bleeding nose and begins to draw himself up, but my dad, and several other folks in the crowd came up next to my mom and this Nazi asshole decides to leave.

My mom had many faults. But that day she made me proud. I saw my mom punch a Nazi in the nose.

[geek tragedy]

4. yes, but they rose to power precisely through chaos and street battles

Once they rise to power, yes, the only solution is to kill as many Nazis as possible.

But when it comes to preventing that rise, violence doesn't work.

[Adrahil]

7. A great deal of their power comes from fear...

... and the idea that they are supported from some kind of silent majority.

We need to make sure it is clear we are NOT afraid to oppose them, and that they do NOT have the support of some silent majority.

They are making a play right now. We need to stop them.

I do not suggest initiating violence. But protesters on our side should be prepared to defend themselves, IMO.

[geek tragedy]

17. I agree action and resistance, but not violence.

Antifa types are spoiling for a street fight.

[Adrahil]

20. Some are...

And I don't much blame them. Nazis are evil.

See my story about my mother above.

The damage they do is not theoretical.

[womanofthehills]

75. Antifa types??????? Should't we all be antifacists?

"Years before the alt-right even had a name, antifascists were spending thankless hours scouring seedy message boards and researching clandestine neo-Nazi gatherings. They were tracking those who planted the seeds of the death that we all witnessed in Charlottesville. Agree or disagree with their methods, the antifa, who devote themselves to combating racism, are in no way equivalent to alt-right trolls who joke about gas chambers. Behind the masks, antifa are nurses, teachers, neighbors, and relatives of all races and genders who do not hesitate to put themselves on the line to shut down fascism by any means necessary."




https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2017/08/16/who-are-the-antifa/?tid=ss_fb&utm_term=.de72538e9366

[Squinch]

26. We do that by showing up in numbers that are ten times theirs, and by shunning them and

verbally rejecting them in normal society.

Hitler rose to power because the majority in Germany said, "Yeah, I hear you. What you are saying is what I want to hear." Those saying that here are a tiny minority.

[obamanut2012]

18. This is absolutely not true -- they came to power through appeasement

And by "good people" thinking Hitler was just a populist and a bit of a fool, but would be good for business.

These good people turned their backs on who were fighting the Brownshirts.

[geek tragedy]

23. They reached critical mass through street brawls and chaos.

They forced people to pick sides between them and the people they were brawling with.

That's how they work. They sow chaos, force people to pick a side (which exponentially increases their numbers), and then promise "law and order" to restore the peace.

[lapucelle]

88. They reached critical mass through online communities

that offered anonymity, validation of their aggrieved sense of lost privilege by all manner of politicians who wished to exploit their rage for their own purposes, and the media narrative of false moral equivalence motivated by the utter lack of seriousness of purpose of the punditry in the service of ratings.

Remember the outrage when they were called deplorable? No one who had a hand in this in any way gets a pass.

[geek tragedy]

89. I'm talking about the German Nazis nt

[lapucelle]

90. Then why is your OP entirely in the present tense?

[krawhitham]

32. Well they control the White House now, current plan is clearly not working

[geek tragedy]

37. the white house doesn't control local law enforcement nt

[krawhitham]

59. Not yet

Martial law is coming

[geek tragedy]

64. doubtful, he can't even control his own white house nt

[LanternWaste]

51. no objective evidence that violent opposition to the Nazis directly resulted in their ascension to p

The Nazis rose to power through intimidation, organization, propaganda, direct action, and widespread economic misery, fear, and perception of worse times to come, as well as anger and impatience with the apparent failure of the government to manage the crisis.

There is however, zero objective evidence in the historical record that violent opposition to the Nazis directly resulted in their ascension to power.

[geek tragedy]

54. the street brawls helped undermine the civil government.

It was an integral part of their strategy.

Had the Communists just had the police crack down on the Nazis (something they certainly could have done given their electoral domination of Berlin) much different story.

Nazis were a small group generally disliked by the majority of population. Their tactic was to force everyone into joining one of three camps--support Nazis, support the Communists, or neutral on both.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

3. With Nazis, we can defeat them with violence now or defeat them with violence later.

[geek tragedy]

5. that's what the Communists said in the 1930s. Before the Nazis liquidated them

Look at the backlash that's going on. It's because of Nazi violence, not because of antifa violence.

[obamanut2012]

19. Yes, and they liquidated them because GOOD PEOPLE turned their backs on the fighters

And "waited it out," instead of fighting back. It could have been stopped.

[geek tragedy]

29. That's the problem, there are three reactions to street brawls between rival gangs

People side with one gang, the other, or they just pray for it all to end.

Forcing people into that kind of choice is EXACTLY what the Nazis intend to do. It dramatically increases their own ranks, and dilutes the ranks of those who oppose their agenda.

This is their playbook.

The attitude of "they're scumbags, the police need to take care of them" is how they're kept in check.

[speaktruthtopower]

6. It is dangerous and lets them get away with things like this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_massacre

I was a freshman in college in NC when that happened. Four dead, no convictions. We are very lucky it didn't happen again.

[obamanut2012]

12. ONLY the Nazis were violent at the Greensboro Massacre

And, the GPD knowingly allowed the violence.

[speaktruthtopower]

25. The rally was called "death to the Klan"

and they got off on self-defense.

[MyNameGoesHere]

8. Not punching Nazis leads to genocide

History has shown us that.

[obamanut2012]

13. This -- I do not get the calls for nonviolent protest

[Foamfollower]

9. Captain America, Miss Victory, Wonder Woman and Indiana Jones say YOU'RE WRONG!

[JHan]

35. Post of the thread!!!

[Foamfollower]

53. .

[GeorgeGist]

10. I doubt you've ever punched a Nazi ...

so I'm not buying.

[haele]

24. I kicked one in the balls once. Well, he probably was a Bircher instead of a Nazi.

But the rantings were the same, and this guy in his late 20's/early 30's thought he could show off how tough he was by intimidating high school kids while he and his buddies were standing around yelling at anti-Nixon protesters and other liberals.

I was 14, played soccer and probably about a foot shorter than him. And he and his "friends" were blocking us and had already made my best friend break down in tears. Which made me see red.
Kicking was pretty much my best option at that point, and he went down hard.
I didn't like doing it - actually felt rather sick. But even at that age, you sometimes have to do things to protect yourself and your friends.

Haele

[obamanut2012]

11. Turning the other cheek is why Nazis rose to power

Fuck passive resistance.

We shouldn't initiate the violence imo, but once it starts, we should be warriors against the Fascists.

All of you saying nonviolent resistance against Nazis works are totally wrong.

[geek tragedy]

22. No, they rose to power in an environment of chaos and street battles with Communists.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/how-the-nazis-succeeded-in-taking-power-in-red-berlin-a-866793.html

A Strategy of Provocation

Goebbels turned Berlin into a violent laboratory for the future dictatorship, availing himself of the services of the uniformed Sturmabteilung ("Assault Division&quot , or SA, whose members were known as the "brownshirts." The SA combined soldierly romanticism, the hatred of younger people for the older elites, and the rage of Berlin's working-class in the eastern part of the city against its wealthier western districts.

For the Nazi Party, the brownshirts -- who included the unemployed, the underemployed, apprentices and high-school students -- were "political soldiers." In Goebbel's view, their task was the "conquest of the street." In the melting pot of Berlin, these primarily young men were supposed to reconcile and embody two previously hostile worldviews: nationalism, which Goebbels believed had to be "reshaped in a revolutionary way," and a "true socialism" free of Marxism.

The Communists tried fighting Nazis in private street battles. They wound up in the soup.

Civil law enforcement is the only way to keep these bastards bottled up. I'm no big fan of the police in a lot of cases, but they need to be the ones fighting Nazis.

[ProfessorGAC]

40. The Communists Were Pushing A Violent Agenda Though

There's a difference between fighting against, physically, a violent agenda and fighting for one's own violent agenda.

I think you're comparing apples to oranges.

[geek tragedy]

46. The Communists were routinely getting over 50% of the vote in Berlin

And yes their willingness to engage the Nazis with violence lead to their downfall.

[ProfessorGAC]

55. So, You're Vehemently Agreeing?

I see a huge difference from taking physical action of those who intend violence and two "intent on violence" groups duking it out for power.

Also, the chaos already existed because of the punitive nature of Versailles. That spun Germany into an macroeconomic sinkhole and made it impossible for the new government to improve the lot of the average German.

So, the chaos was already extant, and these two groups of violent goons (a great many of whom were WWI ex-military) went at it in the streets. If the chaos was not already present, they would have been small groups of cranks.

Punching a Nazi because they are fomenting violence is not the same as what happened in Germany. There is no comparison.

[geek tragedy]

57. Antifa strike me as the Black Bloc crowd, under a different logo.

Their agenda--being anarchists--not terribly different from that of the Nazis, in terms of desired immediate outcomes.

Self-defense is a right, but it has to be actual self-defense.

[ProfessorGAC]

61. Yeah, I Can Agree With That

But, there's a big difference from the Black Bloc and just ordinary people willing to fight fire with fire. The latter aren't looking to gain power, just to send a message from those who do want to grab it and do terrible things.

[geek tragedy]

62. best way for Nazi marches to be received is with cops maintaining complete control,

and overwhelming numbers of counterprotestors reacting with icy but peaceful contempt and scorn towards the marchers.

[ProfessorGAC]

67. That Actually Happened In My Town

Back around 2002.

Some idiot nazi passed through town and stopped in a tavern. Must have figured that whatever yokel he had a beer with represented the whole town.

So, his group of illinois nazis ("I hate illinois nazi's&quot decide to stage a march in our town.

City blocks off the main downtown street, just north of the other main street (Small town of around 6000)

The counter-demonstration, which outnumbered these losers about 20 to one, (20 of them and 400 locals), involved simply walking in a circle back and forth in the north crosswalk. Nobody driving by could see them. Nobody on the other side of the street could hear them or see them.

The other thing the counters did (which included me) was to walk from corner to corner where the losers were handing out leaflets. Our job was to accept them, not say a word, and crumple them up and toss them into the street. About 60 of us did that, taking turns for an hour or so. All their Kinko's money ended up in balls of paper.

At the end, some high school kids went into the street while the cops held traffic and picked up all the paper and put it into paper bags, donated by one of the grocery stores, and put it into recycling bins.

All that said, most of the adults involved were prepared to fight fire with fire. But, when their little party got ruined, and they were outnumbered 20 to 1, they turned tail.

We never heard from those losers again.

BTW: Deceased DU'er NNNOLHHI, (Don) came west from where he lived to participate. That's how we met.

[geek tragedy]

70. that's a great story, hopefully things return to that pattern nt

[womanofthehills]

80. If Antifa was not at Charlottesville - many more people would have been injured -

Dr. Cornel West says anti-fascist and anarchist protesters protected clergy from being "crushed like cockroaches" by white nationalists Friday night in Charlottesville: "They saved our lives, actually… I will never forget that."

HELLO - we are talking about being antifacist. Why is that the same as being a Nazi to you??????????

[Bonx]

14. But they are dicks, and we have the right to respond to speech with violence.

Is that wrong?

[Squinch]

28. You absolutely have the right, and they absolutely deserve it, but it is not the effective means to

stop them.

It legitimizes them and their methods.

Meeting them with massively larger numbers and non-violence shows them to be the evil assholes they are.

[Codeine]

16. Your concern is noted. nt

[geek tragedy]

31. there are more than enough cops to deal with them.

Pressure the cops to crack down on these guys.

Don't let this become "white nationalists vs Communists" part 2.

[geek tragedy]

36. the antifa aren't about self-defense, let's be honest they're mostly Black Bloc

types who have rebranded

[jmg257]

38. Oh you are talking about just the one group...gotcha.

Do you tend to think 'all would be fine' if there was no violence on the left?

The nazis would just disband peacefully?

[geek tragedy]

42. yeah, I'm not talking about people having the right to defend themelves

I'm talking about the people who go out looking for a fistfight.

For example, the antifa guy who punched Richard Spencer. That wasn't self-defense.

[womanofthehills]

84. So.................

[womanofthehills]

82. Actually, part of the whole Nazi thing is to inflitrate police departments

The cops sure were slow to react in Charlottesville.

[geek tragedy]

85. there were also Nazis with guns there nt

[Towlie]

27. And how did this attitude work out for the Germans?

[geek tragedy]

30. the Nazis rose to power in Berlin by getting into street brawls with the more numerous Communists

it was stunningly effective. When it became Communists vs Nazis the Nazis won. When it was Nazis vs the police they were losing.

[Egnever]

33. Sorry you can be peaceful

I will fight them.

[geek tragedy]

39. peaceful doesn't mean tolerant or accepting.

it just means not feeding into the dynamic of violence, chaos, and tribalization that they're seeking to create

[jmg257]

47. Do you think they would seek to create the violence and chaos if they thought they would lose?

And lose severely.

Interesting.

[geek tragedy]

48. They know they're losing if they don't do that. nt

[jmg257]

60. They know they are losing when they can not act out on their hate without opposition

I think that if they are unopposed, they are, and think they are, winning, and emboldened.

[geek tragedy]

63. opposition and violence are two different things nt

[geek tragedy]

66. theyr'e not required with these thugs, the big problem was the policy

were cowardly this past weekend.

I would anticipate in the future we'll see a much stronger, much better armed police presence where there'll be less hesitation to take these guys down.

Boston, for example, will go much differently than Charlottesville did.

[jmg257]

69. Agree - sounds like Boston will be doing so.

Ands we can always hope they will just fade away.

[hatrack]

41. Tell it to Patton, and Montgomery, and LeClerc

[geek tragedy]

43. They went to war with the German state, not with the Nazi party nt

[hatrack]

45. A distinction utterly without a difference . . .

And I mean utterly.

[geek tragedy]

49. it is vastly different to be talking about how Nazis rose to power vs how we defeated them

once they had that power.

They rose to power within Germany by turning politics into a street brawl where people had to pick one side or the other, or just hide in their homes.

[hatrack]

52. Well, you keep on being shocked and saddened . . . .

And if it comes to it, I will do what I have to do.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

50. Literally just walking up to a Nazi and punching him is incredibly foolish.

I understand and complete agree with taking a hard line against him, but you're just acting a fool if you want to take the law into your own hands and starting fights with crazy shitheads.

[GusBob]

56. Let's ask Nevile "peace in our time" Chamberlain

Weird how you can't find one trace of the original Third Reich in Germany

They even reduced the Spandau prison to rubble after Hess died

[geek tragedy]

58. Again, two different considerations for keeping the Nazis out of political power

vs defeating them in a war after they've taken control of the armed forces of an industrialized nation.

[Egnever]

78. They have already taken control

Trump left little doubt of that yesterday. How far does it have to go before fighting them is warranted?

I think the clown from vice is a perfect example of how these fools run their mouth until it actually gets real.

It's time to slap these bullies upside the head so they can creep away like the slugs they are.

[Expecting Rain]

68. You are a voice of reason Geek Tragedy and one who understands the lessons of history.

Chaotic political violence and blood in the streets only feeds the Nazis.

It is how they rose to power in the 1930s.

[jmg257]

72. Hard to imagine when faced with chaos and violence in the streets, the US people will turn to

Nazis to restore peace and not a good ass-wupping.

But who knows?

I just don't buy it.

[Expecting Rain]

73. A lot of Germans didn't belive it either.

They were wrong.

[jmg257]

74. Yep they were also devasted by war and depressions and battling communists.

We have it pretty good right now....and likely comparatively very few people are looking to Nazis for salvation.

Especially if they're getting their asses handed to them as often as possible. Not that many will be sympathetic.

[Expecting Rain]

76. True enough.

But we have a president who at minimum seems sympathetic to these neo-Nazis, and a GOP in power in both houses, and a Court on the edge.

If we keep the moral high ground (which should be very easy given the circumstances) we can rid our country of this cancer.

The only way to fuck this up is to let fringe elements create enough violence that the Trumpist seem justified in making a crackdown.

If we are nonviolent, we will win. Simple as that.

[jmg257]

77. Well - I do hope so. We will have some time to see how it shakes out at at least a few events.

Cheers!

[G_j]

71. agreed

it's playing into their script.

[steve2470]

79. Hitler never got near 50% of the German vote...

He manipulated his way to power via a back-channel deal with Paul von Hindenburg and Von Papen. The theory was that the non-Nazis could control Hitler somehow, which of course turned out to be wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Appointment_as_chancellor

He got 36.8% of the vote in the 1932 German Presidential election versus 53% for Paul von Hindenburg. Ernst Thälmann of the KPD got the remaining 10.2%

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_presidential_election,_1932


In the election above, the Nazis only gained 33.09% of the total Reichstag seats, but they were the largest party. They were definitely a threat to the democratic regime in power.

The main problem was that the civil authorities in Berlin and other cities allowed the SA to run wild in those street battles. I'm sure the Communists started some. The SA were also allowed into the Reichstag, where they were allowed to intimidate the other deputies. If the SA had been neutralized (and the violent communists), there's a chance Hitler would have never risen to power. A lot of this is from memory, so I don't have precise links at hand. I agree we should not be initiating fights with the Neo-Nazis but fighting them democratically and with armed self-defense if necessary.

[LostOne4Ever]

81. I'll keep my Nazi punching to videogames then :P

Time for a return to Castle Wolfenstein!

[JHan]

86. LOLOL

I only got into playing wolfenstein because it involves Punching Nazis

[JHan]

83. No one should punch someone out of the blue obviously...

And Aside from the inherent problem of non-aggressive principles, and since we have laws to prosecute violence, what really is the problem with "punching Nazis"?

"Punching nazis" is more symbolic than literal. Hence the comics Foamfollower shared. The phrase is used to shame bigotry, to fight back against evil.

Civil disobedience is fine - even though it's a bit of an oxymoron - but protest is disruptive, It will be uncomfortable, so what's the point?

See we already have laws to keep the peace, is the argument tactfulness in the face of evil ? Isn't this a fool's game?

Is the argument Tone?

If you believe protest is a powerful tool, then you must accept it will offend.

Further Thoughts on Punching a Nazi:

"Can I punch Nazis?
I don’t know. Can you?
I am capable of the act, yes.
Then you should.
May I?
The answer to that is also yes.
My mother told me that violence was never the answer.
My mother told me I was handsome; you can’t always listen to your mother.
What happened to letting the other guy throw the first punch?
Nazis don’t throw the first punch. Nazis burn the first Reichstag.
Aren’t the Left supposed to be the tolerant ones?
Supposed to be the smart ones, too, but they keep falling for that “I thought you were supposed to be the tolerant ones” horseshit.
What about dialogue?
Dialogue is for reasonable people acting in good faith. Dialogue is between two acceptable positions. “Taxes need to be raised” vs. “taxes need to be lowered” is grounds for dialogue. “Taxes need to be raised” vs. “Jews should be thrown in ovens” is grounds for a beating.
But isn’t this sinking to their level?
That depends. After you punch the Nazi, do you espouse the tenets of National Socialism?
No.
Then you’re better than a Nazi.
But doesn’t this just give the other side ammunition?
The other side in this argument are lying fucks who can twist any piece of information into a swastika-shaped balloon animal if you engage them in good faith; lacking a piece of information, they’ll just make shit up. Might as well punch a Nazi.
What about peace, love, and understanding?
Great goals, and once we get rid of the Nazis we can get to work on them. All three are completely impossible when Nazis are about.
When should you punch a Nazi?
Whenever you get a chance. Preferably when they’re not looking.
What if they’re smaller than you?
Hit them with your fist.
What if they’re bigger?
Hit them with a bat.
Isn’t this a slippery slope?
After we defeated the Nazis in World War II, did we keep shooting people or did the troops come home and start having babies?
The second thing.
There you go. The slippery slope argument is nine times out of ten bullshit. Human beings are good with slippery slopes: we build stairs.
What if you think you’re punching a Nazi, but you just hit a white guy with a shitty haircut?
Run.
What should you do if you hit a Nazi?
You should run then, too. Don’t get me wrong: punching Nazis is still illegal. We’re discussing morality.
But I don’t want to punch anyone.
Then get off your duff, mister, and give aid and support to the boys on the front lines. We’re all in this together. Again."

thoughtsonthedead, On the Propriety of Punching Nazis an FAQ
http://thoughtsonthedead.com/on-the-propriety-of-punching-nazis-an-faq/

[Voltaire2]

91. In the late 20's and early 30s Germans failed to punch enough nazis hard enough

had they been more resolute in their efforts to punch the crap out of nazis WWII might never have happened.

On the other hand promoting the trope that "both sides are bad" is playing right along with our own fascists and their enablers.

[obamanut2012]

92. This -- the SA were allowed to do what the Nazis did in Charlottesville

All over, with abandon, while people looked the other way, or arrested the Communists and trade unionists who were trying to control the Nazis.

Never initiate violence, but always respond to it. It is all they know. They are rabid animals.

[geek tragedy]

93. Having the debate over race relations

devolve into Reds vs Brownshirts battle of the thugs part II is an excessively bad idea.

Antifa goons beat up two reporters in Charlottesville. They're obviously not as bad as Nazis, but there are a lot of straight-up thugs using this as an excuse to act out violently.

[Voltaire2]

94. "the debate over race relations"?

Please, we are not having a debate. There were nazi's in the street shouting slogans that evoked genocide. There is no debate going on. There is no discourse happening between genocidal thugs and civilized people.