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H2O Man

(73,528 posts)
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 08:24 PM Sep 2017

Wired

“Mr. Madison thought it indispensable that some provision should be made for defending the Community against the incapacity, negligence or perfidy of the chief Magistrate. The imitation of the period of his service, was not a sufficient security. He might lose his capacity after his appointment. He might pervert his administration into a scheme of peculation or oppression. He might betray his trust to foreign powers. The case of the Executive Magistracy was very distinguishable, from that of the Legislature or of any other public body, holding offices of limited duration. It could not be presumed that all or even a majority of the members of an Assembly would either lose their capacity for discharging, or be bribed to betray, their trust.”
Framers Debate on Impeachment; James Madison; Philadelphia, PA; 1787
http://www.famous-trials.com/johnson/487-constitution


The Founding Fathers had serious concerns about government corruption. They knew that a corrupt person could be elected to office. More, they recognized that a previously honest person in government might be corrupted, and even be part of a larger group of corrupt officials. The remedy they prescribed was a civil trial within the House and Senate for the executive and judicial branches. Interestingly, they would even note cases of impeachment as an exception to the president's power to pardon.

“Constitutional law” is, of course, how the US Supreme Court has interpreted that Constitution. But from the Founding Father's era until present, the relationship between potential pardons and possible impeachment is unexplored in the federal courts. Obviously, they were aware a president should not parson any official being impeached. Since an impeachment could involve group corruption, it is worth considering if they intended to limit the president from pardoning associates in common corruption. We need look no further to the past than Richard Nixon for an example of a president aware of this dynamic (or to George Bush the Elder for one who violated this trust).

It has become increasingly clear that Mr. Mueller is investigating the Trump-Russian scandal in the context of a Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization Acts (RICO) case. The news regarding what his investigators are focusing on, and who has been called before the grand jury, suggests that the case is moving along quickly. This increases pressure on everyone associated with Trump. Hence, we read that White House staff are paranoid that co-workers may be “wearing wires,” and that Trump's top lawyers discuss the case over lunch in public.

The model I think best illustrates what is happening is with the Trump White House as a mobile, like those that hang over an infant's crib. Trump is, of course, the central piece. If one other piece moves – either on its own, or due to external pressure – the others must adjust. As the Trump piece attempts to dig in and hold its position, it is putting itself under pressure. Trump has tried to make other adjustments, such as firing Mr. Comey, to secure his position. Clearly, that did not help.

Paul Manafort is another piece of his campaign mobile that Trump pretended to sever ties to. As we've learned recently, Manafort is under increased pressure, as Mr. Mueller's investigators' informed him he will soon be indicted. More, that the FBI had a FISA warrant and recorded his calls at important times – including, most likely, discussions with Trump as late as January, 2017. There is a good possibility that the pair discussed their “Russian problem.”

As I write this, my Little Sister sent me the link to an article on this topic. (See below) Charles Pierce is a good source. I think it's good to keep the mobile in mind while reading the article. We are living in strange times.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a12274488/mueller-investigation-manafort/

Peace,
H2O Man

11 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Wired (Original Post) H2O Man Sep 2017 OP
How do you think Manafort will react coeur_de_lion Sep 2017 #1
That depends H2O Man Sep 2017 #5
Good Christ coeur_de_lion Sep 2017 #11
Mobiles Are Actually Fragile Me. Sep 2017 #2
Right. H2O Man Sep 2017 #6
I Read That 45 Me. Sep 2017 #9
Let's hope Mueller has a giant pair of tin snips. democrank Sep 2017 #3
Right! H2O Man Sep 2017 #7
Thanks Beringia Sep 2017 #4
Thank you. H2O Man Sep 2017 #8
K&R... spanone Sep 2017 #10

H2O Man

(73,528 posts)
5. That depends
Wed Sep 20, 2017, 08:48 AM
Sep 2017

on if the indictments are from NYS or the federal prosecutor. It's safe to speculate that Manafort anticipates a pardon from Trump if there is a federal indictment. But he did not anticipate that Mr. Mueller would coordinate with the NYS Attorney General -- which strongly suggests Mr. Mueller is seeking to prevent such a pardon.

It seems that the FBI raid was rather upsetting for Manafort and his wife.

coeur_de_lion

(3,676 posts)
11. Good Christ
Wed Sep 20, 2017, 12:27 PM
Sep 2017
It seems that the FBI raid was rather upsetting for Manafort and his wife.


Ya think? Should have thought about that ya bastard.

Me.

(35,454 posts)
2. Mobiles Are Actually Fragile
Tue Sep 19, 2017, 10:17 PM
Sep 2017

and the wrong type of a swat can break a string easily and leave it completely lopsided.

As to the Supreme Court...My faith in it began to fail when they appointed * president and then to hear Sandra Day O'Connor later wonder if they made a mistake.

H2O Man

(73,528 posts)
6. Right.
Wed Sep 20, 2017, 09:12 AM
Sep 2017

The USSC betrayed the nation with the Bush v Gore decision. No question about that. Yet, if it were to actually decide a case involving the abuse of presidential powers -- or to define the limits of such powers -- it is possible they could render a decision based upon (of all things!) the Constitution.

In 1973, Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., published his wonderful book, "The Imperial Presidency," documenting the unfortunate tendency for all presidents to expand executive power. The expansion was always in the name of national security. Nixon, of course, lost his attempt to keep his tapes secret, despite his claims of presidential power, in the Supreme Court.

Attempts to expand executive powers by Reagan-Bush, in the Iran-contra scandal, were put in check by Congress. Still, with Bush-Cheney, we witnessed the rise of the revolutionary presidency. Still, the federal courts did provide some limits, in terms of domestic operations. Not enough, of course, but still some.

Today we have the criminal presidency. The campaign, the administration (Sessions), and the White House is saturated with criminals, who conspired in what is clearly a RICO fashion. Thus, presidential pardons can only be viewed as an abuse of power. Trump's legal team is fully aware of this. Yet, Trump himself will likely try to protect himself in this way. It will create a constitutional crisis that the USSC will eventually have to address.

Me.

(35,454 posts)
9. I Read That 45
Wed Sep 20, 2017, 09:59 AM
Sep 2017

By the guy who did his book (Schwartz, I think), that he would allow his children to go to prison to save his own skin.

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