General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMy US citizen daughter was denied entry to the UK on Saturday.
Because
a) after many years of hard work she is currently unemployed (silly us--great time for a vacation, we
thought)
b) she is poor, only having a thousand dollars cash and her credit card--not a criminal, no criminal record. Of course we planned to send her more money, but she had no proof of that.
c) her Scottish boyfriend is also poor, only being employed full time as a hotel clerk, and
d) she made the mistake of saying they would like to marry and live together in the UK someday.
Apparently the last bit, saying she wanted to live in the UK someday, was the real closer.
Now my sad daughter has to come home humiliated and possibly even marked for life. Her intentions were good, she was so happy to go be with her friend of many years, her fiance. Will they ever let her in?
I am quite perplexed by this cruelty.
Any comments/suggestions?
Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)The reasons mentioned do not sound like issues.
https://uk.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/denied-entry-to-the-uk/
Listen, and ask why you were not admitted. Be sure you clearly understand what you will need to do the next time you intend to travel to the U.K. i.e. will you need a visa? Is there a waiting period before you can apply to re-enter?
Ask for documentation of the refusal as you may need to show it to U.K. officials at a consulate in the U.S. if you require a visa.
Contact your airline if you are not being returned to the U.S., as you will be responsible for re-booking or purchasing a new flight home from your last port of departure.
librechik
(30,673 posts)there is a document, which I used to make the list in the OP. And, yeah, they don't sound like real issues. At the UK website, it said US citizens don't need a visa unless they wish to stay longer than 6 months, which she was not requesting.
JustAnotherGen
(31,780 posts)I've come and gone many times from there and never had to answer those questions.
Never in my travels back and forth in any European country have I encountered that. Most questions have been my 'dark passport days' when I was a little one.
Was she going on a Visa? Or just a passport?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I travel quite a bit and I've never been asked questions like that on arrival to the UK (or anywhere else for that matter). Does she have a criminal record?
librechik
(30,673 posts)the only thing I can think that she did wrong is to say she would like to live there with her boyfriend instead of "vacation," which might need a different visa. He was so happy that he rented an apartment for them, and that was thought of as a negative.
brush
(53,740 posts)KatyMan
(4,177 posts)But I suspect the issue came from being too 'chatty' with the Customs officer. I always stress to our kids that when cops/government officials ask you anything, don't elaborate. Just say yes or no or vacation or whatever. Anything beyond a standard answer seems to raise flags. Never reply to cops of any stripe in any country beyond what they ask.
Apologies to the OP, I wasn't judging your daughter or her actions, UK Customs did a crappy thing. Just making an observation; we've lived in the UK and in Ireland and never had this situation come up. Tragic.
librechik
(30,673 posts)my honest daughter revealed all at once. If only she had been less honest!
KatyMan
(4,177 posts)And can return soon; maybe she should fly into Scotland directly. Or fly into Dublin and take a ferry to Scotland?
Good luck to her and her boyfriend and all of you!
librechik
(30,673 posts)aikoaiko
(34,162 posts)Not as expensive as western Europe and probably less picky about visitors.
librechik
(30,673 posts)a man she has known over ten years, who has visited us here several times. And Scotland is beautiful too.
aikoaiko
(34,162 posts)CatMor
(6,212 posts)she was going to stay 6 months to be with her boyfriend. She made the mistake of having a resume in her luggage. They saw it when she went through customs and they made her turn around and fly right back home. I think she waited a year and applied for a Visa and it was granted. They are now married and and she has lived there for 12 years now. Her mistake was definitely saying she wanted to get married.
librechik
(30,673 posts)darn it. That is so crazy. They need immigrants, especially in certain fields. Happy to hear your daughter made it work, despite the obstacle.
CatMor
(6,212 posts)my daughter now has a great job there, something she was having a hard time finding here.
librechik
(30,673 posts)My son has lived and worked in Australia for ten years or so, after finding no job here. He married an Australian girl and had no problem with the immigration authorities, so was not expecting this. I am hoping my daughter will eventually find the opportunity yours did. The US can be a tough job market indeed.
CatMor
(6,212 posts)on another subject my daughter is happy with her health care there.
TheBlackAdder
(28,167 posts)CatMor
(6,212 posts)it was a costly mistake for her.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)Being too chatty and sharing more than the information requested is never a good thing crossing borders.
I've traveled all across the globe and have learned that saying anything beyond the minimum just causes trouble. Be glad it was the UK, if it was in some South American countries, there might have been a lengthy time in custody.
blaze
(6,345 posts)When he checked in online, he received this message:
"You cannot check in yet as we are still waiting for authorization for you to travel from the US government. You will not be able to travel without this authorization."
He and his wife travel a lot and had never seen this before.
Different times.
mainer
(12,017 posts)I go to the UK about once a year for business. Aside from asking me the purpose of my business, they don't ask about anything else. I've never seen anything about needing authorization from the US government.
blaze
(6,345 posts)He checked in a couple hours later with no problem.
Here's a partial screen shot
https://www.screencast.com/t/o7eXIjVbyRh
BainsBane
(53,012 posts)And saying she wanted to marry and live in the U.K. That did it. Because if she's got a boyfriend, she's probably working, they might assume.
I went through many of those interrogations with the Home Office, and while I was never denied entry I was given a 90 day notice that my visa would not be renewed again.
My boyfriend at the time was denied entry into the US. He was carrying a diary in which he talked about working in the US (he was on a tourist visa).
This was in the 80s. I'm sure it's gotten worse since. As the US makes visiting the country harder, other countries respond.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,548 posts)My cousin's daughter's fiancée from Canada was denied entry to the US for making a similar comment.
Countries tend to be reactive to any hint that someone might come for a visit and decide to stay permanently. My own adult children have been questioned when coming to visit us in BC, asked if they have return tickets, etc.
Sorry this happened over an innocent comment, hopefully it can get straightened out eventually.
librechik
(30,673 posts)Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)It's all about visa fraud and visa overstays.
They ask these questions to weed out people who are traveling on tourist or student visas who intend or may be likely to violate the terms of the visa even if they don't plan to.
If you say you would like to marry and stay- denied.
If you have anything indicating you have been seeking a job- denied.
If you have anything or say anything that indicates a desire to do something contrary to what the visa allows-denied.
it is nothing new and nothing that has changed with the times.
People who plan to travel abroad should be very familiar with what the terms of their visas do or do not allow and know that they shouldn't express a desire or intent to violate them when they talk to immigration officials when entering a country.
It would be nice if they didn't have to be so strict- but there is so much abuse and fraud in visa overstays and violations that the people who abuse it have ruined it for everyone else.
librechik
(30,673 posts)ProfessorGAC
(64,851 posts)I don't know if they still do it, but Australia used to make you show a return ticket if you were on a visa. (Business visa for sure, and IIRC, vacation visas too.)
They wouldn't let you in unless they knew you had a confirmed flight to go back home.
SweetieD
(1,660 posts)important that you have a return flight ticket within 7 days of entry that you can show them, even if you plan on staying longer.
librechik
(30,673 posts)next time!
metalbot
(1,058 posts)This would be very unusual. Most countries require that you have a return ticket for within the period that your passport stamp says you can stay. Unless you are visiting the UK from a country that gets only a 7 day visa, I'd be very surprised that a return ticket in that window would be required.
I agree that you can never make comments about wanting to live there - it immediately forces them to assume that you will overstay unless you can prove otherwise, and most people can't.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,307 posts)Never. Just, never.
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)Doreen
(11,686 posts)when going to live in Frankfurt with my German boyfriend. I do not plan on getting a job as my disability prevents that. From what I understand with Germany is you go through steps of visas. I should be allowed to live there even if I am an American. Maybe I could become a citizen someday ( will not say that to customs. ) My boyfriend has traveled a lot and does not think we will have a problem with it at all.
DFW
(54,277 posts)Make sure you do EVERYTHING by their rules, and be prepared for uncaring bureaucrats denying you things you are entitled to just because saying no makes them able to take their lunch break on time. This is not an exaggeration. I have seen it with my own eyes.
This is one of the reasons I got my daughters U.S. citizenship at birth. They automatically got German citizenship because their mother is German and they were born in Germany. I called the US Embassy and asked what they needed for my infant daughter(s) to receive US citizenship, and did everything immediately as soon as they were born. It was a pain in the ass, but each time, I walked out of the US Embassy the same day I went to register them, and I had their U.S. birth certificates, US Passports and social security numbers in my hands.
As for me, when my intercontinental travel got to be too much, I decided to move my residence over to Germany. Before applying, I went to the bureau for foreigners (Ausländeramt) and asked what I was expected to do. I had to provide proof of marriage to a German citizen (check), proof of employment (check), health insurance (they accepted my US Blue Cross), proof of financial stability--i.e. never having paid into the German system, they wanted to be sure I wouldn't ask for welfare, although they granted exactly that to a few million so-called "exiled Germans" from Eastern Europe in the last few decades who never paid a cent, either. They all got apartments, huge monthly cash allowances, in some cases cars and cell phones paid by the government. My wife, a German social worker, dealt with these people for decades. Most of them got pensions greater than her own. Anyway, though not a relative of the Koch brothers, my bank balance in Dallas convinced them I would not be panhandling at the Bahnhof Zoo in Berlin any time in the near future.
I also had to prove proficiency in German. It took them about 30 seconds to waive that test, as my German is approaching native fluency. If yours is not, work on it. They care, and it makes a BIG difference when they ask you questions if you can answer unhesitatingly in German. If all you know is English, they will give you a hard time. In Boston, if all you know is German, they'd probably give you a hard time, too.
A lot depends on the good or bad mood of the official you land with. The first office I tried for my residence was run by two complete incompetents, and I got nowhere. They gave me some questionnaire in German to fill out. I said no problem. Frustrated that I was OK with their request, they suddenly said, no, no, your employer in Dallas has to fill it out, and they have to do it in German. I said OK, our head of personnel is a native German, she'll have it back to you in a week (she did). They were disappointed, but they couldn't think of any other ways to harass me. The second time I tried (a new office had since opened up nearer to me), I did it all again, and I had my residence and work permit within 8 weeks. Luck of the draw. Get a nice person, and they'll walk you through it. Get an asshole, and you could be Angela Merkel, and they'll still find a way to send you to Turkey on a one-way trip.
Case in point: a year ago, I arrived in Germany from a trip to the States. I know most of the Customs officers at my airport, have worked with them in an official capacity at one time or another. But this was a new guy. He stopped me and asked--in English--what was the purpose of my trip to Germany? I said I had a very solid purpose, namely that I live here. I showed him my residence card. He then said, "but if you live in Germany, the you must speak German." I said, "I do speak German." Then he gave me a hard time, asking why I was speaking in English. I said, "you are the one who started speaking in English. I don't give German customs officials orders regarding what language they are to use. If you want me to speak German, then speak to me in German." He realized that he wasn't getting anywhere, so he pulled the last resort: are you carrying cash? I said, "of course I'm carrying cash. The taxi driver isn't going to drive me home for free." Then he gave up and let me go.
Again, I must stress that the officials here are not by any means all like the idiots I have sometimes had to deal with. But some of them are, and you must be prepared for the worst.
When you come, if they ask the purpose of your visit, say it is to visit a friend, and have a return flight reservation you can show them if they ask. If they ask how long you intend to stay, make it short. 90 days--the max allowable without a visa, will come across as very suspicious. They know full well how long most Americans get in vacation time. If you plan to ask for a residence, do NOT mention this when you arrive from the States. Go to the Ausländeramt and ask what they would need to grant you a residence permit. Make sure you are only making an inquiry out of curiosity, and do not make the request for residence on the spot. Say you have met someone, and are considering it and want to know what the requirements are. Be aware that from the second you are granted a residence, they consider you a tax resident of Germany. They WILL come after you to file a tax return (you must continue to file in the USA as well). Even if you have no income, get advice.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)I just read Frankfurt's trying to become the post-Brexit London, or something like that. In any case, enjoy.
Doreen
(11,686 posts)Am I screwed or I should not worry?
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Best wishes.
DK504
(3,847 posts)grossproffit
(5,591 posts)grossproffit
(5,591 posts)We had the same thing happen to us years ago* at the Canadian border. We were flagged to the side. After many hours we were finally allowed to pass through. The agent told us that we were a bit too friendly/giddy and that raised a flag. She told us in the future to remember KISS. Keep it simple, stupid.
No good deed (being friendly) goes unpunished.
SharonClark
(10,014 posts)Might one of these apply?
"UK ancestry
If you are a citizen of a Commonwealth country and have a grandparent who was born in the UK, you can apply for a visa to live and work in Scotland and the rest of the UK. This visa lasts five years. You must be aged 17 or over and have the intention to undertake work, as well as showing that you have enough money to support yourself in Scotland.
You can be eligible for this visa through any grandparent born in the UK, the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands, or in what is now the Republic of Ireland if they were born before 31 March 1922. Eligibility cannot be gained through great-grandparents, nor through step-parents.
Tier 5 (Youth mobility scheme)
If you come from certain countries, are aged between 18 and 30 and have £1,890 in savings, you may be eligible to apply for a Tier 5 (Youth Mobility Scheme) visa. This visa will last for up to two years and will allow you to live and work in the UK during this time.
librechik
(30,673 posts)HipChick
(25,485 posts)and hold a US passport...
Never be too chatty with those folks....
I was detained because I said I was there for work...I had to fly on behalf of my company to attended several days meetings...they interpreted it another way, and would not let me in....until one of my managers had the CEO call them and blast their eardrums...
Even though I have a British birth certificate, because I have sworn off the Queen, by obtaining US citizenship...they would frog march me out of there, if I mentioned anything about 'hoping to stay'....I'm leaving in 2 weeks to attend my brothers wedding, and only staying the week...I just smile sweetly and say I am 'visiting'
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)no visible means of support, UK boyfriend, they have her pegged as a potential overstayer. If she does want to live in the UK the way to do it is to apply for a fiancee visa (be advised that it requires her boyfriend to have annual income of £18,600 to ensure that she won't become dependent on public funds).
librechik
(30,673 posts)lunasun
(21,646 posts)daughters intentions are not just visiting for 2 weeks etc and returning.
Other plans have been declared at entry , unfortunately .
Perhaps go through a church group or go for study sign up for a school.
If he is Scottish they can marry later, if she proves her classes she can get a visa in.
Added benefit at school is experience for employment once married. She could do it all in one year I think.
Denzil_DC
(7,221 posts)She and I have been resident in the UK (funnily enough, in Scotland) together for over thirty years.
She entered on a tourist visa, which she managed to extend a couple of times as our romance blossomed (she was also desperate to get away from Reagan's USA!).
We married (a lot earlier than we might have otherwise) because unless we did, she'd have had to return to the US very soon and that would have probably been the end of our relationship.
She has "Indefinite" Leave to Remain. I put that in quotes because we used to take "Indefinite" to mean "endless", whereas nowadays more and more it seems to mean "indeterminate" - i.e. it could conceivably be rescinded at the Home Secretary's whim at any time, though we'd obviously put up a considerable fight.
Things were easier in those olden days, and I doubt we'd be allowed to do the same nowadays. We were as poor as church mice (we're not far off that status now!), but have been pretty much self-supporting ever since.
These cases are often decided on the ground by staff who can be assholes at times (we've had run-ins with horrible immigration officials, which we got through and I won't go into detail about right now, but others have been "What the hell's all the fuss about?" ). Perhaps your daughter hit unlucky.
Like you, I suspect your daughter's declared wish/intent to marry (maybe with the possible implication she might have "fallen pregnant", as they used to say, during her stay, thus adding complications to the case for the government) probably triggered her rejection. It sucks enormously. I'm seeing stories in our media daily about couples who've actually been settled here for years having the non-British partner being told to leave (we sometimes highlight stories like this in the United Kingdom Group).
Because the government's attitude is so different nowadays, I don't have much to offer other than my sincere sympathy to her and her boyfriend, in such a similar situation to ours way back when.
The only things I can think of are to either search online for forums where US-UK immigration matters are discussed and see what others' experiences have been and what ways there may around this, or (better, if you can afford it) consult an immigration lawyer and see if the decision can perhaps be appealed (since I expect she'll now be flagged up by the system if she tries to enter the UK again, even with more funds) or what else is possible.
librechik
(30,673 posts)Kentonio
(4,377 posts)Visa waiver travel is always a potential risk.
Denzil_DC
(7,221 posts)or for librechik, the OP?
Gothmog
(144,919 posts)librechik
(30,673 posts)Sue Who?
The ACLU has been busy here. Contact the ACLU
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Will make short shrift of the ACLU.
I feel sorry for the woman, but by all appearances she was caught attempting to violate UK immigration laws. Never a good idea.
As we battle against the evil of trump and his racism, we must not ever allow ourselves to appear to be or actually be against fair but enforced immigration laws.
Even when we finally can get an overhaul of our immigration laws, there will still be thousands of people legally deported each year.
librechik
(30,673 posts)she was just confused and uninformed, it seems from the bulk of the comments. The problem now is to go about entering the country legitimately after this incident.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Sorry if I missunderstood
librechik
(30,673 posts)She tries occasionally (she's 42) but she can't lie. I taught her to be overly honest, it seems, and not sure if that's a problem, exactly. It does annoy some people, and I see now can get her in serious trouble. Thanks for your opinion, it is helpful.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)expires? within 6 months?
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)We have some young female employees who have had some pretty rough treatment from them traveling on business.
But volunteering that you're visiting a boyfriend/girlfriend that you hope to marry and reside with in any country is going to get you a hard time at any border.
As long as she has her current passport with the rejected entry stamp (the immigration officer's stamp crossed out) she will probably be declined on the spot, she could still be refused subsequent to that but she would probably have to say something suspicious for the immigration officer to bother investigating enough to notice. It might also get her hassled traveling to a Schengen country. At the Canadian border she needs to be prepared to explain why she was refused entry to the UK but they probably won't decline her.
MineralMan
(146,254 posts)I was travelling with an orchestra and chorus. When asked for the reason for my visit, I said to perform in the UK. I had my cased oboe in my hand. Wrong thing to say, apparently. I had to explain that I wasn't going to be paid for performing, but was traveling with an amateur organization to perform here and there in churches and at a contest in Wales.
The concern was that I'd be working in the UK and, ostensibly, keeping some local musician from earning a living. Apparently, my amateur status was OK, though, and half the people on that British Airways plane were on the same performing tour. So, I got to enter and we spent 14 days in a bus, driving through England, Wales, France and Germany to play 10 concerts and that choral competition, where the orchestra wasn't needed.
It was a fun, but very exhausting trip, but we got to perform in some famous cathedrals and other interesting places.
Another, even weirder, incident occurred years earlier when I was sent to Turkey while in the USAF. I had my bluegrass banjo in its case, with underwear packed around it to protect it. Customs in Istanbul made me open the banjo case, which was embarrassing, to say the least. Then, the customs agent demanded that I play the instrument to prove that I wasn't transporting it to sell in Turkey.
So, I extracted the banjo and my finger picks from the underwear and knocked out a few bluegrass standards for the customs guy. A small group of Turks and tourists stood by as an audience. Then, I packed the banjo back into its case, underwear and all, and caught a cab to the hotel where I had a voucher. I suspect it was the first time the Turks in the customs area had ever heard Foggy Mountain Breakdown and Wildwood Flower before. Lots of smiles were given, though, despite my sketchy performance and jockey shorts displayed in the banjo case. It's a fond memory.
Still Blue in PDX
(1,999 posts)EllieBC
(2,989 posts)or you have a boyfriend or girlfriend and they automatically assume you'll try to just stay or overstay your visitor's visa.
TuxedoKat
(3,818 posts)My daughter went to Europe, Denmark, Germany and then UK (London) traveling with her boyfriend. She is a person of color, her boyfriend Caucasian. Her boyfriend went through right away. My daughter was questioned extensively, why she was there (tourism), where she was staying, what she planned to visit, etc. Fortunately, she had the address of place they planned to stay and said she was just there for tourism, and they let her in but discouraging, but not surprising to see how differently both were treated by Customs.