German insurance firm rewards top employees — with an orgy
Four years ago, German insurer Munich Re threw one heck of an office party an orgy for 100 of its best employees as a reward for their hard work.
Held at a thermal baths in Budapest, Hungary, attendees were reportedly presented with 20 colour-coded prostitutes.
The women wore red and yellow wrist bands. One lot were hostesses, the others would fulfill your every wish, reported the German newspaper Handelsblatt.
The white-banded girls were reserved for the big bosses. ...................(more)
The complete piece is at: http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1109215--german-insurance-firm-rewards-top-employees-with-an-orgy?bn=1
It's German for "commerce paper."
Die Handelsblatt is the German equivalent to our Wall Street Journal, but its editorial section isn't quite as far to the right as the WSJ's.
After each sexual encounter, the women were stamped on the lower arm to keep track of how often each one was frequented, Handelsblatt reported.
Its common in these situations to have an appearance fee then bonuses for other services and then there are tips. You have to remember its a business transaction.
as always odin, thanks.
In Europe the selling of oneself sexually is looked upon differently than in the US, hence the many red light districts and the taking of a mistress. What may be abhorrent to you may be and is the norm to other people.
brought in from other countries that we were discussing. but, i get the need to wrap it up in a pretty bow stating the difference in the two areas.
Yup they could be sex slaves, but if a company is willing to pay big bucks for the party its more likely these where high end escorts who would be paid well for their services.
sounds to me i do know enough about this place.... just dont buy the happy little bow.
Not everyone in the trade is forced into it, or find it repulsive. No more so than some feel hooking up and expecting dinner or a movie then a jump. In the end they are both pay to lay.
talk enough, and we hear the same thing every. single. time.
tell yourself big boy, the woman giving 20 bjs a night is ONLY doing it cause she likes sex THAT much.
Themselves it, remember a cook in the kitchen, a lady at the table and a whore in the boudoir.
Themselves a whore, as it implies expertise.
My mother said it was simple to keep a man, you must be a maid in the living room, a cook in the kitchen and a whore in the bedroom. I said I'd hire the other two and take care of the bedroom bit
Jerry Hall quotes (American Model and Actress. b.1956)
I guess the whore in the boudoir isn't getting paid. That seems to be your premise throughout this thread...it's okay if they're getting paid.
Translate into all women are whores? You should stop trying to tell women what to do with their bodies.
Now for some reason you think the latter needs to answer to anyone other than themselves. Once again there are people who enjoy sex and don't mind being paid for it and yes some of them are proud to be called whore, or courtesan or any other myriad of words. You may find the term offensives but others don't and wear it proudly.
a woman could not be having sex just cause, it has to be she is servicing the man. that is the LITTLE mans thinking. that is the man who cant get past his misogyny. THAT is creepy.
But in the end you are being paid to give your client a good time, not sure why you don't get that the biz is full of people who enjoy the sexual aspect and the money. If you were really on their side you would realise this.
repeating ourselves. but here we sit, without a link, stating where i say anything about the sex worker. ONLY about your illusion tht 20 bjs a night is just cause she likes sex. and one way or another all women are whores.
do clarify, how that is not calling ALL women whores. how that is not saying ALL women merely "service" men.
You get an appearance fee and then bonuses per client, this is fairly common practice in the trade, so I am pretty confident the stamps are not some German naziesque plan. I am more concerned that some think everyone in the trade is forced and dosent have a choice
again, you have no facts, no way of knowing. your assumptions about the type of "girls" employed are baseless.
"More concerned that some think..." then you are that it might actually be true?
Now if it is forced then that's different and why it should be legalised and controlled.
And then hammer the traffickers who in a purely business sense undercut the value of the services not to mention the abhorrence ofit.
has more sex slaves and child sex slaves than otherwise. harder to get at the criminal. and are having a HUGE issue with this. but fuck.....
as long as you have a body to use, that is all good
hey, where is it you are for these women? cause if so, i think participating in it, you would know the facts.
With sex it similar in that you will always have clients who want children or very cheap and enforcement needs to battle these.
which goes against legalized so you dont have this shit. which contradicts the post you made saying everything will be fixed, then this post of yours saying, it will always be there.
German police have said that it's made traffickers easier to catch. The problem is with the German court system- under current law most serve no jail time.
"Hungary is a source, transit, and destination country for women trafficked from Romania and Ukraine to Hungary and through Hungary to the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Italy, Switzerland, France, and the United Arab Emirates for the purpose of commercial sexual exploitation."
"Internal trafficking of women for sexual exploitation also occurres. Experts noted a significant increase in trafficking within the country, mostly women from eastern Hungary trafficked to Budapest and areas along the Austrian border. Roma women and girls who grow up in Hungarian orphanages are highly vulnerable to internal sex trafficking."
"According to government officials and NGOs, the majority of traffickers are individuals or small, family-based groups. Organized crime syndicates transported many of the trafficking victims to or through the country for forced prostitution."
pretty much every country? The quote is from the U.S. State Dept. Trafficking in Persons report.
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (Tier 1)
The United States is a source, transit, and destination country for men, women, and children subjected to forced labor, debt bondage, document servitude, and sex trafficking. Trafficking occurs for commercial sexual exploitation in street prostitution, massage parlors, and brothels, and for labor in domestic service, agriculture, manufacturing, janitorial services, hotel services, hospitality industries, construction, health and elder care, and strip club dancing.
Combined federal and state human trafficking information indicates more sex trafficking than labor trafficking investigations and prosecutions, but law enforcement identified a comparatively higher number of labor trafficking victims as such cases uncovered recently have involved more victims. U.S. citizen victims, both adults and children, are predominantly found in sex trafficking; U.S. citizen child victims are often runaways, troubled, and homeless youth. Foreign victims are more often found in labor trafficking than sex trafficking. In 2010, the number of female foreign victims of labor trafficking served through victim services programs increased compared with 2009. The top countries of origin for foreign victims in FY 2010 were Thailand, India, Mexico, Philippines, Haiti, Honduras, El Salvador, and the Dominican Republic.
Germany, which has long been touted as an example of how legalized and regulated prostitution can reduce violence and crime in the commercial sex industry, announced this week that human trafficking crimes have increased 70% in the last five years. The vast majority of this increase is women and girls trafficked into commercial sex. Does this bump mean that Germany may be the next country whose experiment in legal prostitution fails?
German officials are concerned about the significant increase in human trafficking cases over the past five years. In the past year alone, trafficking cases have risen by 11%. The victim population is especially disturbing, with at least 20% of victims being underage. Of those, 41 victims identified were under 14. Much of the trafficking involves women from Eastern Europe and African women and girls being brought into Germany and forced into prostitution, but at least a third of those arrested for trafficking crimes were German nationals. That means in several cases, Germans who know the law and know how to exploit it are using their knowledge to force women into prostitution.
Prostitution and brothels were legalized in Germany in 2002, in part to reduce sex trafficking, provide safer conditions, and remove some of the stigma from the industry. That policy has arguably failed on all counts. Sex trafficking in Germany has grown since prostitution and brothels were legalized. And advocacy groups have claimed that the law has done little to make the industry safer or reduce stigma. In fact, this law has seemed so unpopular with everyone on all sides of the prostitution debate, that I wonder how on earth it got passed in the first place.
But what we are beginning to see is a pattern of human trafficking, violence against women, and exploitation in countries which have legalized prostitution. Despite legal prostitution in Australia, 90% of the commercial sex industry in Australia operates illegally, including sex trafficking. The Netherlands has been steadily closing more and more of their red light districts since they legalized prostitution in 2000, citing increased sex trafficking as a reason. And now Germany, despite legalized brothels, is seeing a huge increase in sex trafficking.
without jail time, there's not a lot of deterrent effect.
"Prostitution and brothels were legalized in Germany in 2002"
Prostitution was never illegal in Germany and neither were brothels. It was "sittenwidrig" (literally "immoral" , which had consequences in contract law:
Sittenwidrigkeit / Unconscionability: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscionability
The prostitution law in 2002 changed that and it is now possible for prostitutes to be legally employed as such and to enforce their contracts with customers, as well as for employers to live from proceeds gained through prostitution.
"... now Germany, despite legalized brothels, is seeing a huge increase in sex trafficking"
That claim is not supported by any real numbers, they cite a Press TV article quoting German law enforcement official Ziercke as saying that "investigations" have increased (from 317 to 534, nationwide). For which there may be any number of reasons - but the self-help organization of prostitutes, Hydra, disputes both the numbers and their validity.
Hydra claims the number of actual trafficking cases has been steadily decreasing in the last three years. And they say that the number of investigations into trafficking is misleading since according to the German penal code StGB § 232 "Menschenhandel zum Zweck der sexuellen Ausbeutung" it is automatically considered "trafficking" when somebody prompts a person under 21 years of age to engage or continue to engage in prostitution. IOW if a young and legal prostitute prefers to be employed in a safe brothel instead of working on her own, her employers would be considered "sex traffickers".
http://www.hydra-berlin.de/aktuelles/presseerklaerung/ (press release, German)
Interesting to note in this context is that laws against sex trafficking were only added to the German penal code in 2005, so we can't compare the numbers with those from previous years.
Also interesting is that while the number of investigations has indeed been increasing by 29 percent, the number of victims has been decreasing by 11 percent between 2006 and 2007, according to statistics published by the Federal Ministry of the Interior:
"Nach dem aktuellen Lagebild Menschenhandel 2007 des Bundeskriminalamtes wurden im Bereich des Menschenhandels zum Zweck der sexuellen Ausbeutung im Jahr 2007 454 Ermittlungsverfahren, davon 318 mit ausländischen Opfern, abgeschlossen. Das bedeutet gegenüber den Vergleichszahlen des Vorjahres (353 Ermittlungsverfahren) einen Anstieg um ca. 29 %. Korrespondierend hiermit ist die Anzahl der Tatverdächtigen um ca. 8 % von 664 im Jahr 2006 auf 714 im Jahr 2007 angestiegen. Die Zahl der Opfer ist hingegen um ca. 11 % von 775 im Jahr 2006 auf 689 im Jahr 2007 gesunken"
those of you whose own self-interests (read: conscience) depends on ignoring the terrible and horrific exploitation involved in prostitution and other sex industry work like to tell yourselves that lie as well.
But it IS a lie. Having sex with strangers at their bidding and as a financial transaction is humiliating. There are no 2 ways about it.
The people involved in prostitution -- if not forced via sex slave trade and slavery -- are forced either by economic oppression (and desperation) and usually (probably always) rather horrible personal psychological wounding (e.g., child sexual abuse, rape, etc.). And they usually tend to cope with their "choice" -- and the lies they have to tell themselves about it -- through pretty heavy and constant self-medication.
If you search within your heart openly and honestly -- really honestly, you'll recognize the truth of what I'm saying.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it by no means affects everyone that way.
Stop pretending to know what's in other people's heads. If YOU would find it humiliating, then DON'T DO IT. There are plenty of women out there who do it out of there own free will, without any coersion whatsoever, enjoy it, are completely and totally honest about with themselves and with others, and have zero problem with it.
There are women here on DU who are sex workers.
I'm not denying sex slavery, I'm not denying desperation and economic oppression, I'm not denying any of those realities. But you're ascribing these things to EVERY SINGLE SEX WORKER out there, and THAT is the biggest lie being told in this thread by a number of people.
And LadyHawke and any other DU sex workers notwithstanding (and neither we nor frankly they can know the extent to which they are in denial), the statistics bear it out.
I just can't TELL you how much I enjoy being told I'm not only irrelevant but mentally incompetent as well. I'm glad you know me better than, apparently, anyone else in my life.
Here's a tip. Don't do that. Not only are you wrong, it's extremely insulting. I don't make assumptions about your mental health. Don't do it with mine. If you want to know about my years in the trade, ask. Don't assume.
Probably the best study yet done, contrasting legal brothel prostitutes, legal escorts and illegal street workers side by side. It's a fantastic and very statistical demonstration of where the problem actually lies.
Seib's study, all 268 pages: http://eprints.qut.edu.au/16398/1/Charlotte_Seib_Thesis.pdf
Why don't they just brand them like cattle?
The more things change, the more they remain the same.
brandin like cattle does not seem repulsive to some.
btw, if you cannot tell. i agree
So, I guess we're assuming Munich Re did not have many women as its' best employees.
Of course not...if women were equal in this company, then they couldn't be used as rewards.
"So, I guess we're assuming Munich Re did not have many women as its' best employees."
That would imply that there could be some women in the group, but a high number of them would be quite doubtful.
Munich Re is a re-insurer for other insurance companies. "How do you know" how your insurance premiums are being spent?
These party's will cater to the clients needs, if there are women as guests then the host will provide for their needs.
So, as you can see for yourself, there are very few women.
Oh, and it's not about client's "needs". It's about client's "wants"...and the clients are men with women as their rewards.
And for all you know are happy with the arrangement. So if they are happy with the deal what's the problem.
where is your responsibility in using a body.
Plenty of people enjoy having all sorts of stuff done to them and doing stuff, not everyone is a victim.
As anybody who's worked in counseling or a similar field knows, strippers tend to have some very troubling backgrounds. Usually it involves some sort of abuse at a young age. People tend to like to ignore this though because thinking about that gets in the way of their good time.
then less women would be selling their bodies for money.
THAT'S the problem. Women do not have the same opportunities to make money as men...and some men want it to stay that way.
I sure as heck don't see any women over 40. What would be there options for employment?
And love doing it, not everyone wants the 9 to 5
"There are things that Kamchana doesnt remember. This would include the period, six or so years ago, when she arrived in this country from Thailand and was moved from city to city so often she could not keep the names straight, much less spell or pronounce them. In Boustons, Atanda, Mayarmei, and other cities, the places she worked all looked the same inside and out, with the words spa or massage in the name and the neon Open signs always on. The front windows were usually blacked out, and there was often an ATM in the tiny lobby, which was furnished with cheap, overstuffed sofas where the women sat, their arms and legs crossed, dressed in lingerie or bikinis, waiting for customers. When the men arrived, their pick for the hour would walk them down a darkened hallway to a dim room with a massage table and soft music playing. In other rooms theyd wash them with warm, soapy water on a table. Theyd finish with some variation of a happy ending, the massage parlor euphemism for intercourse, oral sex, a hand job, or whatever else the customer might ask for. Kamchana was then in her late thirties, but she looked younger, a fleshy woman with a persuasive smile and, even in the worst of times, an irresistible warmth. Her boss christened her Kiki, because her Thai name was too hard for Americans to remember."
"The customers rarely seemed to grasp that the women were captives. They didnt see the other rooms: the kitchen in the back with the overflowing ashtrays, the overloaded electrical outlets for the rice cookers and frying pans, the washer-dryers and the security cameras. These so-called spas were as tightly run as maximum-security prisons: Without permission, no one got inor out. Kamchana (her name and nickname have been changed to protect her identity) shared cramped, windowless bedrooms with women from Korea, China, and Thailand, all her belongings crammed into one small rolling suitcase. Every two weeks she was loaded up and moved to another city, another spa, another room that looked just like the one before it. Like so many of the women on the circuit, she was being held until she paid off the debt of tens of thousands of dollars that she had taken on in exchange for passage to the U.S. They had told her she would be working it off in a restaurant, but the job description had changed once she arrived. It is like sleeping with your husband, thats all, Kamchanas first boss told her. She mostly worked 12-hour shifts, sold by the hour to men of different colors and creeds, rich and poor, grandfathers, husbands, fathers, sons. Sometimes her shifts lasted 24 hours."
Sex slavery is a flourishing trade all over the world. Slaves generally don't love being slaves.
to self-medicate from the hell your life is.
NO ONE wants to be a prostitute when they grow up.
for how many times you were "frequented"?
IMHO, it doesn't sound like terrific working conditions at all.
Really? Is that what you thought I meant? No, I mean really, is it?
Sense of humor here? Dead. Someone call for a bodybag.
Still kicking here, still thinking that executives being rewarded with women to use is not funny.
You can tell us what you meant, if you so choose.
Keep working on your material, and I'll be able to laugh at it before you know it.
"There can never be enough said of the virtues, dangers, the power of a shared laugh."
i guess the ha ha is only a one way street.
Would not call them slaves. You do know for some the sex business is a vocation.
Did the article say that? I honestly didn't read it.
What I meant, and most folks WITH a sense of humor (see above as well) would have figured, "oh, he'd probably like to be in a profession where the Christmas bonus is an orgy."
and whether a co shelled out the money or you did, the sex was bought
It's exploitation, whether it's paid for (which you seem to think makes it A-OK) or not.
almost makes me want to give up disability retirement.
summons up all sorts of unpleasantness and nastiness from recent German history.
The office janitor and the other peons in the office aren't in on this deal. Upper management and their lackeys are the ones who got the orgy.
truly amazing. you dont see the hypocrisy in your post?
these are human beings, being used, marked as used and you have no empathy, but the fact the little guy doesnt get to use the women, too.
truly, outta the ballpark.
One would think we would all get that at DU. But I suppose there is extensive cultural reprogramming involved.
Its like piecework, the more clients the more pay.
degradation of tagging. clueless.
These girls are being paid by the client and probuably quite well. Wouldn't you want paid for a service you provide.
BEING PAID doesn't make it good, or right, for the women. They are being exploited in the worst possible way humans can be exploited, and the pay doesn't take that away. If anything, it just keeps them from being sex slaves. The AMOUNT of pay doesn't make it okay. NOTHING makes it okay.
this poster has been TS, just to let you know.
but you are on such a kick ass roll, i hate to tell ya. lol
I finally found a link toward the bottom of where I was posting in the thread and I had to laugh: as close to arguing with myself as I wanna get. I felt a little foolish to be tilting at ghosts. Oh well.
That makes just about everything about money only.
Given that the most evil I have ever encountered has been USA insurance companies and that German companies at least have a veneer of humanity...
... with what have the USA companies been rewarding their top misogynists? Children? Virgins sacrifice? Their own slaves? A buffet of live BBQ baby flesh?
Germans did to Jewish women in occupied territories during World War II, including use of sumptuary insignia and sexual exploitation and degradation.
You can find some examples on Google Image.
so they could play. i certainly would not assume that they went strictly by numbers for their evening of play. and
organizers were fired
It implies that no sex worker has any choice to engage in their chosen profession. There are a lot of people who work in the industry as they enjoy it and the benefits.
she is really really into sex? with a bunch of strangers. ya.
and if she had a well paying job, would she be choosing this profession? not likely. people that use a body, for just that, like to make it something it isnt. the "buyer" has all the power. glad you can convince yourself being tagged as used, and being a receptacle is so enjoyable, so you really dont have to think any further as you use these women.
Who are you to judge what very well may be someones vocation. Some of us treat sex as their business and enjoy it, its different horses tor different courses.
they really really want that sex. reality, it is a buck, to eat. and a man using a body.
where did i say sex was "abnormal". link it or a fabricaton on your part.
20 bjs a night cause she is horney? ya, i challenge that.
And if its willingly who's business is it but the involved partys
yourself but it isnt gonna fly.
you use a body by handing money over. you USE an HUMAN BEING.
It's great that you can rationalize your deeds. I'm sure that keeps you from feeling uncomfortable with using women as cum receptacles.
Or have I misinterpreted your comments like #66 and #72.
Of COURSE it's not offensive to YOU -- you're the one who benefits from the exploitation.
you're looking at something you find distasteful from the POV of one who has never done it. From a worker's POV: you don't sell your body, no one owns you and it's not a possession; you rent your time and effort. End of story.
Workers find terms that that offensive, because we're not mindless children and we consent to and get paid for the work we do. In a perfect world, where this is legal and you have security and police protection, when people force you into something you don't consent to and get paid for, this would be a criminal act and the person would go to jail. In most of America, that doesn't happen and rapists walk, because the workers fear arrest. Ask yourself if you're really part of the solution.
get in trouble for reporting a crime done to her.
That's not sex. And whatever it is, it is abnormal and degrading.
Insurance companies tend to see everything in terms of liability.
At first I thought "Gee what fun - a big group orgy, that would be FUN!"
Then I read the article and realized they were serving up sex slaves for the men of this business - boohoo!
Now if they had an authentic orgy, man, what a fucking place to work.
It gets real expensive real fast especially if you want some kink.
Not only were these women treated as objects, but I'm sure many, if not most, of those men were married; therefore, rendering their wives nothing but objects to be abused, as well (I consider cheating a form of abuse unless an open marriage is agreed upon. Cheating is lying and is more hurtful than some physical pain).
And going from the tagging that's so each person gets paid for the services they provide and to separate the hosts from the professionals to avoid any incidents.
to imagine his defense in using women in this manner. proudly. boosting. bragging.
a woman should know her place. in the kitchen, her worth is a cook. at the table her worth is a lady. and in the bedroom it is, after all, being a whore servicing the man.
that is what this poster believes.
Nothing to do with place but what is sold is a professional in the bedroom and for some the cook and lady as well.
a woman is ALL about serving man and his many appetites. i hear ya. know exactly where you are coming from
cant be that a women is merely a person, a human being, gotta be something to service you
You are not being paid to be the person you are, you are being paid to fulfilled a need or a fantasy. And if your willing to enter into the contract then whose business is it other than the two parties.
you want to change up the words to make them pretty. something you continually do. call it what it is.
my position on prostitution is whatever. it isnt pretty. the person selling their body is almost always a child that was a victim. they are generally desperate. they would not do this job, generally, if they had a job that paid well.
sweden has decriminalized prostitution and made being a jon illegal. seems to protect the girls the best. so i stand with that. i am for the girls/women. not you, the person buying the body to be used.
If you look at the gay community, this stuff is normal among gay men, no biggie.
It's just that with str8 people you have two different sexes who treat sex differently. Men are interested in sex, women in emotional connection.
And then there are women who are smart enough that they realize they can make money off of the stupid guys who think with their dicks.
By the way, the males who say anything else are lying ass douchebags who are dishonest and trying to get you into bed.
Now, longer term relationships, perhaps you do find people who give a shit, older couples. But young males just have one thing on their minds. Many older guys too.
Even if they think they are not like that, they are.
as you claim with men. i spent a decade having one night stands cause i wanted NO relationship, at all, ever. the men couldnt leave it at a one night. they sent the flowers, cake a gram, and became stalkers (2). i know plenty of men that think more about sex than what you make out. and plenty of women that think sex is just that and no more.
really... when i say one night stand, i mean one night stand.
Thankfully I got the section gay, so I don't have to serve in the war between the sexes, but it is definitely going on.
You have lots of liars for friends, because they would never feel comfortable telling you the truth. Your performance here is probably the reason why they won't open up and tell you the truth, you know.
the discussions. Once you remove the "Its those horrible men doing it to those innocent women" angles in porn and prostitution, I think you begin to have a more rational discussion.
And while I bet you'll deny it in a reply, your numerous posts in this and many other threads regarding this and other similar topics speak for themselves.
Apparently it's OK for YOU to have emontionless sex for no money, but not OK for others to do the same but get paid while they're at it.
Put yourself in the mine -- naked. With people, your bosses, watching. And poking and prodding or stroking and massaging if they wanted. And telling you to turn around so they can get a better look at how handsome you are.
It's VERY different. Sex should be a wonderful and even beautiful, mutually beneficial exchange between two people who care about each other. That is simply not possible in a sex-for-hire situation.
Further, as I've already said upthread, being in a position where your options are so pitiful and so few that you can be bought like that is among THE most humiliating situations people can find themselves in.
Always an option for the john.
Is it legal there, and can you go into court to prove they owe the money?
Lots of people seem to be offended at the paying for sex aspect of it, but if I understand correctly, this happens every day in Germany.
We happen to have a load of sexually repressed conservatives who post here. They like to sex bash on a regular basis, just wearing a skirt too short is wrong in their eyes.
If they are sex slaves, that's one thing. If they are prostitutes that haven't been forced into it, but made the choice to sell themselves because they were attractive, let it be.
And if they legalized it here, people might actually be able to have legal rights while doing their business, we could offer free STD testing, and a different non-criminal aspect might dominate the industry. It might actually mean fewer people forced against their will into it.
every country that has legalized it has had an INCREASE in sex slave and child sex slave. demand goes up. not enough women willing to be prostitute. and damn hard for the police to find the criminals.
so as you lecture about people that dont see this as bliss, maybe you ought to be concerned enough about the children and women and educate yourself, before calling people names.
though, this is not a discussion even about the prostitutes like you men want to make it. not a single woman on her is talking about the sex workers. we are talking about a company that gives women as a gift and the men that use them.
Response to seabeyond (Reply #117)
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution is a gift to pimps, traffickers and the sex industry.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution and the sex industry promotes sex trafficking.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not control the sex industry. It expands it.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution increases clandestine, hidden, illegal and street prostitution.
Legalization of prostitution and decriminalization of the sex industry increases child prostitution.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not protect the women in prostitution.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution increases the demand for prostitution. It boosts the motivation of men to buy women for sex in a much wider and more permissible range of socially acceptable settings.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not promote women's health.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not enhance women's choice.
Women in systems of prostitution do not want the sex industry legalized or decriminalized.
Have a nice night.
That's Melissa Farley's org.
It would be a good idea, when compiling statistics, to steer clear of anything Farley has her dirty fingers in. Really. There's a request in front of the APA right now to have her credentials pulled due to repeatedly faulty research. The Canadian courts have found her "expert" testimony less than credible. She's a loon.
Last time I checked, hands are hopefully attached to a body. If not, that's service I have a problem with.
They're using a body. But suddenly, you add a happy ending and man you should cry yourself to sleep for being a naughty naughty person.
Gee, people have sex for money, it's such a recent "problem."
And of course, there are never men who charge to have sex with women or other men, right?
But, so little is said about that. I wonder why. Maybe she thinks that men can make the choice, and women simply cannot.
Unless these women were
1) Under age or
2) Forced or coerced in any way
...to do any of this, then guess what? There's nothing wrong here.
Sex work is just like any other kind of work. It's the oldest profession on the planet. It's no different than a brothel, or pornography, or anything else involving sex for money. As for the men, whether they're married or not, what the fuck is it to anyone else?
Only on this side of the planet do people get worked up over this. Sigh.
but there has been a rash of these socially conservative posts that look like they came from FR.
that the Corporation was paying for this. There are many things that you can legally do in the US that people would be upset to hear that a corporation was paying for with top executives.
to judging prostitution and about everyone has stayed away from that. it is the men that are taking it to us judging the prostitutes regardless how we tell YOU otherwise or the number of times we tell YOU.
I would have a problem with some rich asshole enjoying a golf outing on corporate dollars, so this I suppose is wrong for that reason, but these moral crusader types who are out to protect women from themselves sicken me. It's so paternalistic to think that they cannot let the women decide what they want to do for themselves, that women are incapable of making the choice to have sex.
Their moral claptrap is really rooted in a bunch of religious hooey, whether they acknowledge it or not.
that is not and has not been the issue thru out the whole thread, EXCEPT you men taking it to that.
I think it's altogether ironic that a gay man would have to tell it to you straight.
Scan down and see the words "receptacle", "sex slave", you yourself used "cum receptor", there was a reference to Nazis and Jewish women. All of those terms imply force, none of them allow for choices.
And I'm not a man.
I'd like to hear it. You seem to continually evade his points.
there might be more in it. and women are only emotionally connected to sex?
i dont know what you are asking me to address.
or all men are lying to me? or i am a bitch, lol?
Why isnt anyone woe's-me-ing over young gay men selling themselves?
Is it because they view selling sex differently? If so, is it possible that some women view selling sex the same way young gay men feel about selling sex?
If 'women are different' factors into your complaint about prostitution, I dont think your complaint works.
hence, some of the conversation was solely directed about women. fair point? but when i talked about prostitution in general, i was sure to write prostitute trying to stay away from "her", with the knowledge there are male prostitutes.
here is an example, how i do recognize this is not just women. it is not about prostitution, but about rape. " i would imagine they do studies if a person (cause males are raped, too) has been raped". but it is the only one i could find where i specifically clarify why i use person instead of female.
when i talk about prostitution, i am not speaking exclusively about female. females are not the only ones in the trade or child sex slave, or sex slaves. many of the young men, whether they are gay, or not gay, yet choosing prostitution or forced are in the same situation as the women.
i see it as the same situation.
if you are saying that the boys/men selling their body feel differently than the woman? then i dont know that i buy that.
what you are saying is, the poster you are referring to says being a gay male prostitute is no big deal. and you are expecting me to buy that. but the poster has no issue with buying a body to be used, so that would be an expected comment from him. he does not think it is a big deal to buy a womans body to use.
but honestly, i am not real clear what you are looking for here. it isnt about gender. prostitution as a whole. if i didnt answer your question, it is cause i am not sure what you are asking.
One thing I think you missed is that working guy, if I understand some of his posts correctly, has sold sex services to women in the past. Of course, it is hard to know who most people who post really are, but I think he made that contention.
Are women who pay for sex services from men just as bad as the reverse? Are the men in that situation just as downtrodden?
I happen to think it is all a perception thing. If you believe that satisfying someone else sexually for money is a degrading thing, that is how you are going to feel about it. If you don't, you won't. Since women, particularly in this country, have been taught to view sex with other than their monogamous partner or spouse something they should be ashamed about, its not hard to figure out how many American women would perceive this.
I completely understand that the majority of people would probably find it degrading. I'm not sure how I would feel about it. I suppose if I were single and all of my clientele were women I found attractive it would probably not mess with me psychologically, but I'm not sure.
considering what i was writing.
huge problem, if a person is into serious understanding. huge. even now, you contradicted what i said, and further started on a post that i said NO ONE is talking about the prostitutes choice. that it is ONLY the men addressing a perceived view of the prostitute and throwing it at me as if it is what i think.
thru out the thread, i had men telling me how i thought of prostitutes and i kept directing them AWAY from the prostitute to my issue about how the men talked about using a body. about stamping a woman as used. or about all women are whores one way or another. that is what i discussed thru out this thread.
yet, here you are telling me, no.... it is about gender. when i say it isnt. you have the conversation judging the prostitute, when again, that is not what i have done, thru out the thread. and you are telling me that women are taught to be monogamous, when i wrote a post about that being a time of the past. i dont feel that way. i grew up in a time when that was NOT the expectation for women. so no, that is not a factor.
of course it is degrading. listen to the men talk about prostitutes when they are not "defending" them for their USE. listen to any man talk about a prostitute and they think very little of the woman. but the really amazing thing is the defense of the prostitute when any one challenges their use of them. that is where ONE lie comes in that i say, at the least, be honest.
another lie i challenge is these women are just really into sex. it has nothing to do with sex. it has to do with money. to eat. to survive. 20 bjs a night isnt cause she is horney. so i call that out.
another ugly that is ignored is the majority of the PEOPLE that choose this trade does it ONLY because they cannot get a job that pays enough money. that says a hell of a lot
another ugly that we ignore and refuse to acknowledge is the vast majority that choose to be prostitutes have been sexually molested, raped, as children. they are vicitims and they continue to be in trade.
another lie is legalization will make everything better. all the countries that have legalized it are having huge problems with increase in sex slaves and child sex slave trade. that is IMPORTANT. sex slaves. slaves. people FORCED and drugged and abused. that is not a little thing. legalization also makes the job for cops harder to get to the criminals. and the women are not safer with legalization.
these are my issues with prostitution. these are positions i speak up against. these are the only issues, that i can think about at this moment that i have. so anything any one else wants to give me is their shit and has nothing to do with me.
on edit.... if you could only have women you are attracted to? really? see, this is the talk that drives me crazy. do you think a prostitute gets to pick and chose. find only the attractive ones? do you think there are that many "atrractive" people having to buy a body to use?
I could go on and on and on. That is my biggest issue with prostitution; that "moral" people prefer to see us slaughtered than admit we're not actually doing anything wrong.
I know I've said this before: any one of those could have been me. Easily. Because I chose to do something that someone else found "immoral"; because I had sex in ways they did not approve of; because I chose to work 4 hours a day on my own terms rather than dump my son in daycare for 10 hours a day and work 8 of them on their terms; because I refused to grovel for welfare or clean toilets or sell French fries for minimum wage and be grateful for my "moral" money that didn't cover the bills. For that I had to risk my life. That's wrong on every possible level. I have a difficult time looking abolitionists in the eye when they talk to me face to face: not because I'm ashamed but because I will want to knock their teeth in and am afraid one day I'll follow through. I get sick of hearing how I should have died so that they could use my corpse to feed their ideology.
There's always hysteria about "trafficking increases in legal areas!!!" but no one troubles to notice that what has increased are ARRESTS. As in, people have stopped GETTING AWAY WITH IT. To me, that's a win. If you want to see the numbers on a real trafficking problem, try Thailand or the Philippines, where it's illegal.
There are other benefits. Senegal, Africa, has legal prostitution. It hasn't made life fantastic for the prostitutes; the area is poor and life for prostitutes there is pretty much as you'd expect for dirt-poor people in a dirt-poor country. What Senegal does NOT have is an AIDS problem. Prostitutes have to be registered, get health checks, and use condoms. The country has been pushing condom use to combat disease for decades, and it's worked. It hasn't solved all the country's problems, but legalizing anywhere isn't going to solve all the problems. It did take care of one important problem, with the result: lower disease transmission, less dead bodies. Win.
That's my biggest problem. I have smaller problems: the idea that it's OK to tell an adult what to do because he/she was molested as a child; the idea that two adults can consent to the same act but it should only be a crime for one; the idea that women are too stupid, too weak, too childish to consent but the men that do it are not; etc. But those are all legal and philosophical arguments. Dead bodies are my biggest problem, and they're piling up by the day. I will never understand why this is not enough of an argument.
I will agree with you that it's not about sex. I think that a lot of people get confused here when presented with the idea that a prostitute might "like" her job or find it "fulfilling", or any such language. That doesn't necessarily mean enjoying the sex. People are fulfilled by many things, not just orgasm. Money is one of those things. Control and working your own hours on your own terms is another. Orgasm can be gotten elsewhere; most of the women I knew, myself included, had a partner at home. When you have workers who can't make the separation between work and home life, and confuse their job with their sexuality, that's when you have the problems.
Enough for now. I need to put my temper back in its box before I say anything else.
of AIDS in a hospital room. His mother wouldn't even
His lower bowel WRECKED.
I've got a problem with "young gay men" selling themselves.
Everytime I saw him, he was crying.
And you can't get away from the gender issues. They may claim there to be a male prostitute selling to women, but there's probably about one. Never heard of lesbian prostitutes. Upthread someone has said it's been going on for centuries. Um, the same centuries where women were second class citizens.
The problem with you and others in here is you're turning sex into something that it's not. I suspect (and am probably right) that this comes from your upbringing, most likely a religious one. Sex is not ALWAYS about love, or emotional intimacy. It can be, and most of the time it is, but not always.
Sometimes, sex is just sex. It's a pleasurable physical act between two consenting adults. Sometimes, one of those adults gets paid money for it, and it's about money. Sometimes, (pornography) both adults are paid money. Sometimes no money at all is involved, and it's just a one night thing between strangers who happen to want it. No relationships, no numbers being exchanged, just sex tonight and nice to meet you and see you around it was fun.
NEVER HEARD of lesbian prostitutes? You don't get out much apparently. And about 20% of prostitutes are male. Is what they do also degrading? Or is it just WOMEN who can't choose when and how they have sex, and whether or not they want money for it?
God, how sad. I suspect those who feel stuck in that kind of attitude towards it are trying to justify it somehow.
Pleasurable acts can be far, far less intimate than sex is. If you have to go that far for "pleasure" there is something wrong. Could have a conversation. Or go skiing. The way you're describing it, it has no greater meaning.
I pity anyone whose upbringing made it mean so little - no more than a night out on the town, or a concert, or a dinner.
I suspect most such people really do wish it had more meaning. How do they feel about romance? How can they tell the difference? What about where the other person thinks differently?
I really don't think it is prudish or puritanical to want sex to have some greater meaning, and to feel crappy when someone else seems to want to use you for nothing else (which is why I would never approach any man to use him for just that, and suspect that men wouldn't really like that, regardless of their protests).
Life is not a romance novel. Don't get me wrong: Sex with meaning is great. Better, even. But there's nothing requring it to be anything more than a physical release. The biological fact is that that's all sex really is. It's a human need no different than thirst or hunger. It's our cultural upbringing and religion that has perverted sex to have some kind of spiritual or emotional connection.
But sometimes people just want to fuck.
Or you're exploiting them.
Everyone is different, but those people who think it's no more than a meal or a movie need to be sure the other person is one of those, too.
Maybe life is not a romance novel, but some would like it to be. Or closer to that. I hate the de-romaniticization of sex and hate the word "fuck" also meaning to screw someone over. It's interesting how that word became a synonym. It means you got fooled or used somehow, like someone else got you to hand over something based on fraud.
your last paragraph, i did it. and they dont like it. anymore than women. there is not this great divide that men .... SOME men.... have an intense need to resurrect.
Where to even start? Please note: this is directed at all posters, not at the OP.
1) This story is growing white whiskers. Start by asking yourself why it keeps coming up, and what it actually is about this story that's really bothering you.
2) Drive down the street and go to McDonalds. Or the grocery store. 7-11. Anywhere with service personnel. See if they're a) wearing a nametag and b) if different jobs have different, color-coded clothing. Ask yourself why you think this ought to be different in an industry dominated by -zOMG- vaginas.
3) Amazingly, in an industry that's 17-20% male, outrage is only ever generated when the workers have -zOMG- vaginas. Ask yourself why you think men are people capable of making a decision about when, where and why to have sex, but women are not and can not.
4) I've yet to hear a complaint from any of the workers involved. Ask yourself why they haven't, and why you feel you have to complain on their behalf.
5) While you're hanging out at the local McDonalds checking out the uniforms and name tags, grab any passing employee and ask them if they have been kidnapped, coerced or otherwise forced into this job. Ask yourself why you consider these people "employees" but if it involves -zOMG- vaginas, the word you use is "slave".
6) Do a basic Google search on the number of prostitute deaths in Germany over the past, oh, let's call it 10 years or so. Do a comparison with New York State in the past year. Take a moment to ask yourself about the difference.
7) Now ask yourself why you feel everyone else needs to have sex by your standards.
I'm going to go have dinner and attempt to cool my temper before making any further posts. Think about what I have said before you respond. Thank you.
trafficking is an issue?
People working at McDonalds are NOT the issue. Vagina's are NOT the issue.
Sex trafficking is a HUGE problem... right here too in the good Ol' USA.
On edit: I realize that this post is not about that, but we have no idea whether or not sex trafficking was an issue at this "party". Just wanted to clarify.
In all probability, this corporate sponsored sex party was on the up and up. Ask yourself if any legitimate corporation would expose itself purposely to something illegal and that can generate a whole lot of bad PR.
It's the puritanical sexually repressed people here who are making this into an issue that it really isn't. Start a thread on sex slaves if you want to discuss it instead of assuming that legitimate escort services must automatically be (and I quote from someone above) "European sex slaves".
And that's NOT to mention all the bullshit about men being pigs and treating women like objects and all the other nonsense. "Disgusting" and "Mysoginistic" and whatever other choice words supposedly liberal people have for grown up men paying money to grown up women to have consentual sex.
1) This story is growing white whiskers. Start by asking yourself why it keeps coming up, and what it actually is about this story that's really bothering you.
Sex trafficking bothers some of us. It IS a major problem. Perhaps the reason why it comes up so often is because sex trafficking is becoming more prevalent?
Do we know that these ladies were trafficked? No. I do not. But nor do you. Just saying.
Not only that, hold your horses on the "all men are pigs" crap. I never said that.
Isn't that just name calling, and black and white thinking?
We're talking about money here. It's one thing to be a prude who thinks there should be no enjoyable sex, but a different one to think it should have something to do with love and relationships, not money.
Here's my problem with that: I'm reading a thread full of so-called liberals who are quite liberal right up until vagina happens. Then suddenly no woman can possibly be happy or fulfilled unless they are In Love with One Person, and if they're not giving it to their One Man, they're oppressed, enslaved and in denial. Name-calling or not, that's a conservative puritan attitude.
Most people are in the middle. Most people would cringe at the idea of exchanging sex for money. That doesn't make them puritans who don't "enjoy" it.
I never said they don't enjoy it. What I am saying is that they assume, and say so very clearly, that no woman could possibly live a fulfilled life unless she is having sex the way they do, in their kind of relationship, with one person. It's been made very clear as well that any woman who thinks she is fulfilled outside those parameters is enslaved and in denial. THAT is black and white, puritanical thinking, and sexist as well: it assumes no woman is happy without the Love of her One Man, although in this era some do amend it to "or one woman".
I'm not knocking their chosen lifestyle; I'm knocking them for condemning the lifestyle of others.
but I have yet to see, anywhere, anything stating that this party had anything to do with trafficking. The subject belongs in a different thread. Prostitution =/= trafficking. They are two different things.
Vaginas ARE the issue, since consenting adult women are treated as mindless subnormals incapable of giving consent when exposed to money. I've made (somewhat bitter) half-jokes before about the allergy to money all us women possess- apparently on exposure, we become paralyzed, our brain stops functioning and we flop over on our backs with legs spread. It's a sexist mindset and it bothers me that women themselves still hold it.
And if color-coding by job status is an issue, then yes, McDonalds workers are an issue.
I mean how many of these guys were married?
I don't have a problem if someone is willing to sell sex, or if someone single is willing to pay for it. I don't believe in the government restricting consensual sexual behavior between adults. But that doesn't mean something like this is fine.