So NASCAR tells it members that they are not American citizens and may not exercise their rights

[Augiedog]

under the constitution. Interesting for a bunch of seemingly gun sling’n confederate flag wav’n merikans. You would think they would all be down with that 1st amendment thingy. I’ll bet they have no problem with guns on the track, just in case one of those ‘others’ sneak into their race. Wonder what they would do if one of them “took a knee” while holding an AK47? Wet themselves I’m thinking.

[Lee-Lee]

1. While I get where your going

Employers have every right to restrict employee actions while at work.

The only real form of protected speech in the workplace is a certain level of union organizing and related speech.

Aside from that employers have every power to say what you can and cannot do on the clock.

[Eliot Rosewater]

2. So if I stood alone in a room and whispered "i support Hillary" and the owner

overheard me, in a state that is NOT right to work he or she can fire me for this reason?

[MichMary]

3. Employment at will

They can fire you for ANY reason at any time, just as you can quit your job for any reason at any time. Unions provide some protections, but any non-union company could fire you.

[Eliot Rosewater]

8. Only in right to work states.

[Lee-Lee]

10. "Right to work" has nothing to do with this

So- called "right to work" laws don't affect this one bit. "Right to work" means that closed union shops are not allowed.

It is not the opposite of an employment at-will, and a statue can not be so-called "right to work" and still be "at-will", the two are not mutually exclusive.

[jberryhill]

14. Um... most employees, in any state, are at-will employees

[Eliot Rosewater]

15. see this question then please

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029634678

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

4. While the answer to your question may potentially turn on certain state laws . . .

. . . basically, yes. Your employer could fire you because he or she took issue with your expression of political views. Some states, I believe, do have laws that work to preclude an employer for conditioning employment on political activity done outside the workplace, but, again, that is a case-by-case/state-by-state matter.

[Eliot Rosewater]

7. Unless it is a right to work state, the employer would have to have "legal" conditions

and they would have to state in advance that support of dems is not tolerated, and if they said it that way, it would not be a legal condition in the first place.

A legal condition cant be you can support one political party and not the other. For instance.

What a wonderful opportunity for us ALL to support the end of right to work states and support the idea that every American have the choice of being in a union!

I know we ALL agree with that!


(if you said you cant have any political speech, and that rule was upheld, but you could prove that political speech was really only limited when one is speaking in favor of one side, then you win and they lose and I think that is often what a good attorney could find in a workplace)

[Lee-Lee]

11. "Right to work" has absolutely nothing to do with this

See my post above.

[Eliot Rosewater]

12. Then my point is even stronger

Wait, if you can forbid political speech then what in THE HELL is the National Anthem being played for in the first place?




The employer can FORCE political patriotism on you but you cant NOT participate?


Where is an attorney...hello!

[Lee-Lee]

16. No its not

You clearly don't understand it at all.

Most employment in this country is at-will. Even in states with exemptions to at-will employment most non-union employers make a new employee sign an at-will agreement.

And even past that- most will have policies that forbid political speech on the job so it you violate it they then have just cause to terminate you.

On top of that, political affiliation or speech or opinion is not a protected class under federal law and most state laws, so you can't sue for being fired.

You may not like that, but it's how it is.

Why do you think the employers of all those Nazis identified were able to fire them? Because their political activities came into the workplace by complaints. Since political party or affiliation isn't a protected employment class they were able to be legally fired.

[Eliot Rosewater]

17. So political speech is allowed on their terms only, seems like you are saying

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029634678

[Lee-Lee]

23. Sure

Some examples:

If you worked for a gay bar and started singing the praises of Trump at the workplace- you can and should be fired. Because it would offend and alienate most of the customers. They could allow speech in favor of Hillary and not allow speech in favor of Trump if they wanted.

If you work for a gun store and started handing out gun control materials at work they could fire you.

If you got a job at an abortion provider and then started telling everyone who worked there or every client "abortion is murder" they can fire you.

[MousePlayingDaffodil]

13. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying . . .

. . . but if a person is an "at will" employee -- meaning that he or she is not employed pursuant to some contract or employment agreement -- that person can be terminated for any "non-discriminatory" reason. That is, while my employer could not permissibly fire me on the basis of my race, or sex, or some other status that is identified by law, I could be permissibly let go for any reason (or, for no particular reason) at all.

Thus, unless I'm living in a state that has on its books some law that prohibits employment discrimination on the basis of "politics" or whatever, my employer could permissibly terminate me simply because he or she didn't like my political views.

[unblock]

18. this is incorrect.

generally speaking, employers can fire someone for virtually any reason (e.g., they don't like the color of your tie, they think you looked at them funny, etc.). the only reasons they generally can *not* fire you are if it's because of

a) something protected (e.g., race, sex, national original, religion)
b) something that an employment contract says they can't fire you for
c) something that a union contract says they can't fire you for.

"right-to-work" laws only really come into play in the fact that (c) might not apply where a union is less likely to exist.


now, prudent employers have a careful procedure for firing people, and try to document legitimate work-related issues to justify firing, to deter a lawsuit later alleging "yeah, he said he fired my because he didn't like my tie, but we all know it was really because i'm black/female/hispanic/jewish". but legally, you can generally be fired for just about any sort of arbitrary reason, just as long as it doesn't run afoul of a), b), or c) above.

[Eliot Rosewater]

21. So you can be forced to participate in politics, you are forced to show respect to and during

a political song, and that is OK but if you sit down during it you are fired.

What else can you be forced to do that has nothing to do with the job?

[unblock]

24. generally speaking the job is whatever the employer says it is.

there are laws that protect you from having to work too many hours, not having bathroom breaks, not having a safe workplace, etc.

but there are certainly jobs where the employer can require you to smile, song a song (e.g., happy birthday), wear flair , wear your hair a certain way, wear a particular uniform or costume, etc.

and who's to say it has nothing to do with the job?

if you're in the entertainment business (and that includes sports), then you're part of a show, and that may include the national anthem.

fortunately, at least some nfl owners are being somewhat reasonable and not firing people for taking a knee.


generally speaking, there's no law against being a bad boss or a terrible businessperson. other than a few specific protections, or something that you got written into your employment contract, your only recourse is renegotiation and/or quitting.

[Lee-Lee]

30. The job is whatever they say it is, more or less

Unless you have a clearly defined contract- aka a union with a collective bargaining agreement- they can make your job whatever they want, so long as you do t cross obvious lines like demanding sexual activity or illegal acts.

If my boss decides tomorrow I have to stand at attention and recite a pledge to be loyal to him and the company every morning- then that's what the job is.

I can either do it, quit, or refuse and see if they decide I'm valuable enough to not make me do it becuse they want to keep me or if they tell me to pack my shit and go.

[George II]

33. That is not true, especially your second paragraph.

[Lee-Lee]

38. Sure it is

If the company decides a daily pledge of loyalty to the company is a requirement for the job going forward, than it is.

It's a bit messier it it's a government job, in which case they can be unconstitutional, but from a private employer it's perfectly legal to require.

[George II]

39. If they decided that I believe they would have to put it in writing as a condition of employment.

[Ms. Toad]

41. Nope. Most jobs are at-will.

Meaning employers can fire you at a moment's notice - for any non-discriminatory reason. Similarly, you can walk at a moment's notice.

The terms of your work can change from day to day, or moment to moment, and nothing at all needs to be put in writing. Both you and the employer are free to say "adios" the moment you don't like the terms - or your employer doesn't want you around any longer.

Essentially the only exceptions (in an at-will situation) are prohibitions on firing you because you are a member of a protected class (age over 40, gender race, etc.)

[meow2u3]

42. We can also sneak in the end of "right to work" in must-pass legislation

[Lee-Lee]

6. Alone in a room or a public display in front of customers?

Becuse now your taking a point that is one thing and comparing it to the most absurd example in the other direction.

But yes, even in your example, if the employer has set a policy that says no political speech in the workplace and your violate it that would be the same as any other policy violation and you could conceivably be fired for it, depending on how your employers policies are written.

Most HR policies have portions that forbid political speech in the workplace if you look at them. This is for many reasons. First keeping politics out of the workplace keeps employee arguement and hard feelings away. Second discussion of politics often gets quickly into topics of gender, abortion, race etc that can also be problematic in the workplace. Third if political speech that dives into those other topics happens it opens the door later for claims that any employment actions, favorable or unfavorable, was biased because the supervisor or others agree or disagree with their political beliefs. In positions where clients or customers can possibly hear you risk alienating your customers, or even possibly finding a lawsuit based on treatment with claimed political bias as a motivation.

For all those reasons virtually all HR departments will have policies restricting political speech in the workplace and on the clock.

[PoliticAverse]

27. Only a couple of states (California and New York, for example) have laws preventing firing...

an employee for off-duty political activity.

[George II]

32. Not if it doesn't interfere with their work or the work of fellow employees.

If an employee is sitting in the company cafeteria on his/her lunch break reading either Mein Kampf or the Communist Manifesto, and employer can't dismiss that employee.

Players kneeling or sitting during the National Anthem yesterday were NOT "on the job" at the time - the opening kick-offs hadn't happened yet.

[X_Digger]

35. Uhh, yeah, they can. They can dismiss you because they think gingers have no soul, or because..

.. you chew with your mouth open.

As long as it isn't because of membership in a protected class, and doesn't violate the contract they have with you, they certainly can.

[Lee-Lee]

37. Not true at all

[JoeStuckInOH]

5. Free speech rights protect your rights from infringement by agents of the governemnt.

NASCAR is not the government and if a (non government) employer wanted to fire someone for bringing unwanted media attention to their company via some kind of personal protests/actions... ESPECIALLY on company time... they would have every right to terminate that person.

I mean, what if you owned a music record shop and an employee you hired to hand out flyers and hold signs on the street in front of the shop for advertisement was always telling potential customers about how Trump should "Lock Her Up" and how Russian election hacking was "Fake News". You'd fire his ass.

[Augiedog]

19. I understand that. My argument is that they are acting in congruence with and as an agent for the

Government.

[JoeStuckInOH]

22. Said otherwise, "NASCAR agrees with Trump and I don't like Trump, so screw NASCAR employer rights"

Is that about it? NASCAR's rights as an at-will-employer should change with each election cycle based on the incumbent party's politics?

Trump can't make NASCAR agree with his position. It's entirely coincidental. Trump is supported by white racists. NASCAR has deep roots in Appalachian and southern white culture. There's quite a bit of overlap in those groups.

[SummerSnow]

9. So it's like Nazi Germany, no different.

[spanone]

20. nascar statement....

NASCAR statement

By NASCAR Statement NASCAR.com September 25, 2017 at 12:49 pm

“Sports are a unifying influence in our society, bringing people of differing backgrounds and beliefs together. Our respect for the national anthem has always been a hallmark of our pre-race events. Thanks to the sacrifices of many, we live in a country of unparalleled freedoms and countless liberties, including the right to peacefully express one’s opinion.”

https://www.nascar.com/news-media/2017/09/25/nascar-statement-september-25/

[MichMan]

25. People are fired for off the job activities as well

Remember all the support here for those employees who were fired because pictures of them marching in the Nazi rally in Charlottesville surfaced?

Yea, me neither

As I recall, everyone commenting here thought they got what they deserved even though in these cases it had nothing to do with work.

[cwydro]

40. Yes indeed.

Good post.

[MichMan]

26. By the way, NASCAR has very few employees

The vast majority of people at the track competing are not employed by NASCAR, but by individual race teams. NASCAR administers the races and is in charge of the rules and officiating.

[VMA131Marine]

28. Interesting discussion, but.....

Most professional athletes in the 'big' are not 'at will' employees. They have both union representation and contracts that specify the terms under which they can be terminated. Then there's an arbitration process to further protect them (see: Brady, Tom; or Rodriguez, Alex). I’m pretty sure that NASCAR, Indy car, and Formula One drivers are either self-employed or work for the team that owns the car not the organisation that sanctions the races. I'm not sure NASCAR could ban an individual driver.

[MichMan]

31. Sure they could bar an individual driver

The competitors are required to be licensed and credentialed by NASCAR in order to even enter the garage area much less be able to compete as a driver or crew member

It's a moot point because I would be very surprised if any driver would do anything that might anger their team, sponsors and fans like not standing for the anthem. Isn't going to happen. A crew member would be more likely, but frankly they have worked their whole life to get the opportunity to work in NASCAR and are very unlikely to risk that to make a statement.

[brooklynite]

29. Thats a solid argument...

They didn’t n’t have that right WHILE WORKING unles THEIR EMPLOYER ALLOWS THEM TO.

I don’t have a problem with that rule.

[X_Digger]

34. The first amendment is a protection from government interference, nothing more.

An employer can make your continued employed contingent on a whole host of conditions, and the bill of rights has fuck-all to do with that.

[SonofDonald]

36. I love nascar and that pisses me off

I'll watch the rest of the races this season but unless this crap is taken back and apologized for it's my last.

And I will let the France family know that.

I'm nobody but it adds up.