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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAmerica was not founded on a flag or anthem.
America was not founded on a flag.
We have had several in our history and it changes every time we grow and add states to our union.
America was not founded on a national anthem.
The Star Spangled Banner didn't become our national anthem until 1931 and it was written in 1814 so obviously people were in no hurry for one at the time.
This country was founded on the U.S. Constitution. We are a nation of shared basic rights and equally applied laws as detailed in that document. We get to change it whenever we want but that's our set of rules, period.
Americans are really good at saluting the flag and singing the anthem, and then claiming their patriotism street cred but that is as substantially patriotic as wearing a tissue paper suit in a rainstorm.
Authentic patriotism is about making sure the rights and laws of the Constitution are equally applied to all citizens. This has been the part America hasn't gotten right in the last two hundred and thirty odd years.
Peaceful protest was built into the Constitution, along with certain free speech rights. Some citizens are currently protesting our Anthem because there is a systemic problem in our application of justice right now and we have to address it and fix it.
America is a nation that was built to evolve like our Founders expected would happen. That's why we change laws and or try to apply them in a more equal and fair manner. That's why we can change the Constitution any time we realize more people need their rights and protections under the law.
People who are upset by these protests can pretend the football players, our fellow citizens, are protesting the flag, the anthem, the military and the whole country but that is disingenuous at best.
They are protesting inequality in the rule of law and protecting our free speech as an added benefit.
They are following the rules laid out in our Constitution.
They are taking a knee for the Constitution.
You can take away our flag and we are still America.
You can take away our national anthem and we are still America.
If you take away our Constitution then America ceases to exist.
Then we'll all be on our knees.
Eko
(7,170 posts)It was founded on being free. The Constitution only put it into words. Ben Franklin, Jefferson and Adam's did not need a constitution to dream of America, to act on making America, to fight for America, to make America. Free. Our Nation is not a piece of paper, nor a song or a flag. It is nothing so trivial as that. It is a simple idea. Free. And we fight for that to our credit and sorrow, because freedom is simple and so complex and the fight is never ending. If you take away our Constitution then America still exists in the hearts and minds of all of us, and it only dies when we decide that being safe is more important than being free. That hating is more important than being free, that fear is more important than being free.
longship
(40,416 posts)If you take that away, what's left is anarchy.
Good luck with that.
TeamPooka
(24,155 posts)Break it and its over
Make no mistake that is what Trump and his cronies are trying to do
Eko
(7,170 posts)You would not continue to think of yourself as an American? You would not support and push for a new Constitution for America?
longship
(40,416 posts)Plus, one would first have to convince people of a need to replace the basis of law in this country. I am sure the evangelical Christian religious right could supply such a rationale. It seems to be their wet dream.
Not mine, however.
I stand by my post as i wrote it, without any further interpretations of what is or is not American beyond the undeniable fact that the US Constitution is the basis of law for this country.
My best to you.
rustydog
(9,186 posts)Can I borrow it for a Facebook post? I like to piss off some of my conservative friends.
longship
(40,416 posts)Eko
(7,170 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)"A republic, if you can keep it."
Benjamin Franklin
Some here apparently need to brush up on history and civics.
As always, my best.
Eko
(7,170 posts)It wasn't words that founded our country, it sure wasn't a piece of paper. It was the ideas and ideals that did it. The Constitution has changed over the years, the ideals of "free" that did found our country has only changed to add more "free".
Here you go,
IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
Im sure someone so learned in history and civics does not need to be told that the Declaration came before the Constitution. Or maybe Hancock, Adams, Paine, Franklin, Jefferson, and Penn didnt know what they were talking about and you do.
Thanks!
Eko.
longship
(40,416 posts)That's why it's called The Declaration of Independence. However, it did not form a government. At that time there was only the Articles of Confederation as a basis for the country.
The founders gathered in Philadelphia to strengthen that document to make it a suitable basis on which to form our government. Judging it insufficient, the convention decided to scrap the Articles and write a new Constitution, setting up three coequal branches of government and the rules by which they operate.
Without the US Constitution we have no government.
I confess that I have really no idea what you are arguing about. These principles are really, really simple.
Have a nice day, my friend.
Eko
(7,170 posts)"America was not founded on a flag or anthem."
Notice the word "America" there.
Did you see where I posted that the founding fathers called it "America" before the constitution was written.
Maybe not, here it is again.
IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
So, which came first? The Constitution or the idea and ideals of America?
We are talking about "America", it is a concept that even the founding fathers (as I have shown) had before the Constitution.
You continue to argue something that is just not true. You conflate government with "America".
Gosh.
longship
(40,416 posts)It is a fact that the DoI was more or less a declaration of war against the U.K. It says absolutely nothing about how this new country would operate, let alone make any laws by which that would happen. Thus, the US Constitution, which describes the form of the government of the United States of America, a republic.
I see no point in continuing going back and forth on this.
Peace, friend.
Really? The Constitution did not give the founding fathers nor me the concept of America. A piece of paper that came after the founding fathers put into pen the words "The states of America" did not create America, unless it went back into time somehow. Sure, its picky that you are 100% wrong and cant even admit it. America means something, especially to those of us who actually know history and civics and it doesn't mean our constitution which has been wrong time after time while the idea of "America" has continued to push said document to change and get better. Someone can take the Constitution away from you, they cant take my idea of America away from me. I said Good day.
longship
(40,416 posts)The Declaration was a Declaration of Independence, but it was also the Declaration of war against the U.K. That independence was finally won when we won the war.
Yes! That founded our country, however it did not found our government. For that we needed a constitution laying out the form and rules of our country's government. Without that document we have no republic, no presidency, no congress, no courts, etc. Without the Constitution we would still be operating under the decidedly inferior Articles of Confederation, which the first Con Con wisely decided to discard.
Now, I am done here.
Thank you for responding.
The title of the Thread is "America was not founded on a flag or anthem."
It does not say American government, but you keep arguing that is what they are saying.
You should learn to argue on what was said, not what you think it said.
Thanks!,
Eko
Eko
(7,170 posts)The government does not make the country. The constitution does not make the country, it has changed so many times in the years. It did not change because it wanted to, it changed because the people wanted it to. So that in itself should tell you what makes the country, it was the peoples ideas of what America was. The coolest thing about our country is why it became, look at Spain, Russia, England, Egypt, even Canada. None of them started on the idea of being free. In that we are among the very few that have started that way and stayed that way. The very very few. We aren't America because we have a democratic republic, other countries have that also. We are Americans because we have decided that we are and always will be. If Trump and the Republicans pull out a constitutional convention and change it,,, we will still be Americans and fight it. We have always been rebels, right and wrong, and we always will be. If our Constitution and government change for the worse, we will still fight for the American ideal of freedom. You have Native Americans considering themselves Americans, even though the Constitution let them down horribly. You have African Americans in the same boat, Japanese Americans, Chinese Americans, they didn't decide to become Americans because of a stupid Constitution that let them be enslaved, killed, hanged, relocated, rounded up and many other horrible things. They believed in the idea of America, free, liberty. If you think that our government is the basis of our country, then you haven't seen the rotten food they give to native American firefighters while the white people get good food out on duty, you haven't seen the police pull over a black man just because he is black, you haven't see the pictures of Japanese in concentration camps on American soil, our government and our Constitution are a poor fucking excuse for a country that is all kinds of fucked up. But, we rock. Because we believe in being free, and liberty. And we fight for it every day. And we get better every day in spite of the original Constitution. Sure, it allows for change, but it doesnt say it has to be good change, its only because of our ideal that for the most part is has been.
Eko
(7,170 posts)If you think that any form of government, even one as good as ours, is going to ensure freedom, then you know nothing about history at all. Ours or anyone's. That is why America is not our form of government, or Constitution. It is about being free. That is what it was founded on, being free.
former9thward
(31,798 posts)This country's birthday is considered July 4, 1776. That is when we celebrate Independence Day. The Constitution did not come around until 13 years later.
Initech
(99,909 posts)"Politicians hide behind 3 things - the flag, the Bible, and children. I consider these things to be symbols and I leave them to the symbol minded!"
So true!