I f you arent pro gun control you arent pro life.

[Augiedog]

[HopeAgain]

1. Ohhh, but I keep hearing on here...

That the gun control issue is not necessarily a liberal issue. That you can be pro-guns and Democratic.

I notice they are quieter than usual today.

[hack89]

3. You can still be pro-gun control and enjoy guns

they are not mutually exclusive as long as gun control does not equal "ban all guns".

[wasupaloopa]

5. What gun control method would protect those 59 people who died in Las Vegas

Isn't life more important than fucking guns?!

[hack89]

7. Yes

but there is not going to be a total gun ban and confiscation in America. You know that.

I am not sure what the solution is right now - my feeling is we have to get ahead of these killers and find better ways to identify them before they kill.

[Demsrule86]

23. That is impossible...ban automatics and certain bullets.

[hack89]

24. Automatics are so regulated that for all practical purposes they are banned.

The Las Vegas shooter did not have an automatic but used bump stocks on semi-automatic rifles. Bump stocks should be banned.

Not sure I understand your point on bullets. What kind of bullets are you talking about?

[Hoyt]

41. Hack, the gun nomenclature game is beneath you. You know exactly what the poster meant, yet you

turn to debate angles common among right wingers.

Too bad we didn't keep the so-called "assault rifle ban" in place and stop trying to define "assault weapon," and similar BS. Maybe ole Paddock would have had to fire away with a pistol.

Right now, you can go to one of the gun stores Paddock frequented and buy this:



It's just going to get worse until we do something.

[aikoaiko]

54. The so called "Assault Rifle (Weapons) Ban" would not have stopped this massacre.

The proposed 2012 AWB only required a different grip for the ARs to be legal.

smdh

[Hoyt]

62. The law needed to change to anticipate the crud gunners, on both sides, would try to

circumvent the law. It's amazing what gunners, again on both sides, do to ensure access to lethal weapons. It's similar to addiction.

[AncientGeezer]

69. It's a pistol....regulated as other pistols are...in each jurisdiction.

A .357 semi has a MUCH larger projectile.
A Desert Eagle carries a shell that makes your pic'd .223 look like a Red Rider

[Hoyt]

74. Christ, another gunner telling us how knowledgeable they are on lethal weapons.

[Jim Beard]

81. I like your logic Hoyt

[Weekend Warrior]

112. Of the fifty or so women killed by an intimate partner shooting them...

How many used guns you brazenly equate to a Red Rider?

Of the thousands and thousands of homicides, how many were perpetrated by what you equate to a Red Rider?

I find that the strongest case for gun control is often made by “professionals” on the topic who also happen to sleep with their guns.

[AncientGeezer]

145. What? I'm ONLY talking about caliber and regulations of pistols.

Shouldn't facts matter when discussing an issue?

The picture Hoyt posted I can not track down to any homicide let alone a domestic violence death.

It's just a fact a .223 is vastly out massed by a .357 or the .50 of a DE.

[Weekend Warrior]

157. I believe you know the answer.

The “Red Riders” as you refer to them in scale of caliber have racked up some pretty impressive human statistics.

[AncientGeezer]

158. Actually no.....If you want to be accurate long guns of any cal. account for a very small

small % of gun deaths.

Everybody knows the Red Rider analogy is based on caliber mass....or should know.

[Demsrule86]

172. A gun saved my life once and that of my kid...so I do understand...I also know that there are guns

being sold while not fully automatic...are damned close and can easily be turned into an automatic. Thank God for the security guard who stopped the murderous rampage or thousands could be dead...we must stop this madness.

[guillaumeb]

57. To dream the impossible dream?

When you said:

I am not sure what the solution is right now - my feeling is we have to get ahead of these killers and find better ways to identify them before they kill.

Australia found a solution after the Port Arthur massacre.

[LonePirate]

30. How about a $50K per bullet tax and metal detectors at hotels?

[Jim Beard]

83. Thats how we whipped cigarettes. Worked once, should work again.

cigarettes

[Weekend Warrior]

113. Yep. It has an impact.

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/tables/trends/cig_smoking/index.htm

[delisen]

152. I don't want to go through any more detectors

[onecaliberal]

130. The bump fire device made it easier to kill more people because the gun can fire far more quickly

Than a human could pull the trigger. This technology should be banned. It would help save lives.

[HopeAgain]

6. Okay, first ban all assault weapons, automatic and semi-automatic

Ban all handguns unless you have a documented reason to carry one, and keep all with criminal records, terrorist ties and mental health problems from owning any guns.

How's that for a start?

[hack89]

8. A solution grounded in reality might be more successful

you are not going to force a solution down the throats of gun owners. It will never happen. So why don't we work harder to find common ground. I support most gun control measures with only two exceptions - AWBs and registration. That still leaves plenty of things that can be done. Plenty of things we can agree on

[HopeAgain]

9. Because we have been finding so much common ground with the NRA that we have lost all ground...

[hack89]

11. What about all the gun owners who are not NRA members?

which is a large majority? Don't you need to pry them away from the NRA if you are to succeed? What are you thinking - that you can ignore and politically steamroll gun owners to pass a gun ban? Is that really your "plan"?

[HopeAgain]

12. So what is you plan?

Just keep giving ground like we have been for the last 3 decades? Maybe all of us Democrats are insane because we do keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.

[hack89]

13. UBCs, mandatory training, license gun owners, mechanism for healthcare professionals ...

to identify people who are potentially harmful to themselves and others.

That would be a good start, don't you think?

[HopeAgain]

17. Well that wouldn't have stopped a single bullet from flying in Vegas.

Just saying...

[hack89]

20. So tell me.

Last edited Tue Oct 3, 2017, 05:33 PM - Edit history (1)

if you were to pass an AWB that was retroactive (unlike Feinstein's bill) and you were able to muster the hundreds of billions of dollars needed to buy back all those guns, what makes you think that gun owners will actually comply in large numbers? Many would but those aren't the ones that are dangerous.

[EL34x4]

25. I would be surprised if there was a 50% compliance rate with a mandatory assault weapon buyback.

Ten percent would probably be more realistic.

Even in Australia where there was no Second Amendment, compliance to their gun ban was only about 20%.

The way to do it would require a lot of armed police searching a lot of homes and draconian prison sentences for those found with newly prohibited weapons.

Does America have the stomach for this?

[LonePirate]

31. Random search warrants for registered gun owners with mandatory jail time for AW possession.

[hack89]

32. But there won't be a list of registered gun owners.

we don't register guns in America. And people like you are the reason why.

[LonePirate]

33. Start with CC permit holders and anyone who has underground a background check.

Establishing a gun registry much like we have with automobiles is a must.

Anyone who refuses to register their guns should automatically forfeit them by law. Refusing to register is akin to being supportive of murder.

[hack89]

34. Background checks do not generate permanent records

again, because of people like you.

We are talking about AWBs - concealed carry has nothing to do with assault weapons.

[LonePirate]

36. People opposed to common sense safety measures like these are accomplices to murder.

Are your precious guns really more important than a human life? You can be part of the solution or you can be part of the problem. Looks like you’re part of the problem to me.

[hack89]

39. You are the one proposing a police state.

you must be trolling. I can't take you seriously.

[Jim Beard]

98. I had much rather have the police on my side than all the Trump supporters in the swamp.

[hack89]

99. I would rather have the Constitution on my side. Nt

[Jim Beard]

103. I had too and I have learned how to read the second amendment. No way would our founding fathers wan

want what we have today. They would never have accepted the Las Vegas massacre.

[hack89]

104. You are talking about people that routinely massacred indians

So don't assume to know what types of weapons they would have embraced.

[Demsrule86]

184. The constitution has been misinterpreted for guns... a militia does not include the Las Vegas

asshole or any like him...state militia. There is no individual right to carry in my opinion...and it is only a matter of time before this mistake on the part of the courts is remedied. Also, even such as Scalia ruled that guns could be regulated by the states...and this guy could have killed thousands if a security guard had not walked past his door. At some point and it is coming, Americans are going to demand gun control...and vote accordingly then the NRA party is over...the sooner the better. I have owned guns. A gun saved my life, but this is out of control.

[NutmegYankee]

35. Random search warrants? WHAT THE FUCK!

If this unAmerican anti-4th amendment shit seems OK to you, feel free to leave the party at anytime.

[LonePirate]

38. If people can be arrested for possessing illegal drugs, the same should apply for illegal guns.

Nothing anti-4th Amendment about having a legal search warrant and confiscating contraband.

[hack89]

40. But you need probable cause to get a warrant to search a home

you can't get a warrant to go look for drugs. You can't get a warrant to go look for guns.

You must be trolling.

[LonePirate]

43. Start with CC permit holders and BC recipients. Theres your probable cause.

[NutmegYankee]

45. A legal search warrant requires probable cause of a crime.

Random search warrants are illegal. Also - Possession of drugs are illegal because they have been illegal to sell since 1912, and as a perishable item, any in existence in 1912 was long gone by the time of Nixon's Drug Control Act. That said, items acquired legally, even if possession is banned later, are still legally held and cannot be removed without due process and just compensation.

Upholding our Constitution, rights, privileges, and our laws equally for everyone is a hallmark of Liberalism.

[melm00se]

171. The Constitution

and its protections only applies when folks like Jim Beard agree with the issue.

When they don't (like on the issue of guns), it can be freely ignored.

[sarisataka]

37. I didn't realize

We had to pick only a certain number of Rights; I thought we get them all.

Will these random search warrants only apply to gun owners or can the local law enforcement get one for anyone they want?

[LonePirate]

42. There is probable cause to search someone who is a CC permit holder or who received a BC.

[hack89]

47. Not unless the police have hard evidence that an illegal weapon is there

do you understand probable cause?

[LonePirate]

48. Once we mandate gun registrations and inspections (like cars for smog), then yes.

[hack89]

50. A law that will be widely ignored

by gun owners and (in some states) law enforcement. Time to get back to reality.

[sarisataka]

51. Would you agree

In a similar vein there is probable cause to search the house of someone who bought potting soil? Who knows what they are growing

[Straw Man]

124. Probable cause?

There is probable cause to search someone who is a CC permit holder or who received a BC.

I don't think you know what "probable cause" means. Educate yourself:

Probable cause is a requirement found in the Fourth Amendment that must usually be met before police make an arrest, conduct a search, or receive a warrant. Courts usually find probable cause when there is a reasonable basis for believing that a crime may have been committed (for an arrest) or when evidence of the crime is present in the place to be searched (for a search).

-- https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/probable_cause

[Drahthaardogs]

169. That's a ridiculous statement

How would a CC permit holder be probable cause? It's a long gun vs. a handgun.

This post just jumped the shark.

[Hoyt]

49. Sorry, but I think society's rights trump your "rights" as a gun-fancier.

I see no reason not to investigate every selfish gun-fancier who has amassed a weapons cache anywhere close to Paddock's.

[sarisataka]

52. Luckily we have

A Bill of Rights to protect individuals from such an authoritarian society.

I'm sure the current administration would love to ignore several Amendments, for the good of society of course.

[Hoyt]

55. You might -- and it's a big might -- have the right to arm up, but no one makes you do it or shill

for gun-lovers.

[sarisataka]

58. I guess it is a good thing

I'm not arming up. My only military rifle was withdrawn from service about a hundred years ago

[NutmegYankee]

64. One of the basic concepts of liberalism is rights and privileges apply to everyone equally.

In fact, we are protesting right now to point out how society is denying that basic right to people of color. It's the single most fundamental principle that separates left wing politics from right wing politics, since right wing politics hold that certain social orders and hierarchies are inevitable, natural, normal or desirable, whereas left wing politics supports social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality.

Revisit your last 2 posts.

[Hoyt]

73. Sorry, guns are different from civil rights, right to healthcare, etc.

[NutmegYankee]

127. Well, at least you outed yourself.

[LonePirate]

61. It's a sad day when DUers believe owning a gun is more important than someone being able to live.

[Hoyt]

63. Honest to god, I have been amazed at what gunners who are Democrats believe

and condone to protect their access to more gunz.

[sarisataka]

66. Things like

The fourth and fifth amendments? Yes I will battle for those each and every day. They used to be something supported by all Democrats.

[sarisataka]

65. It's a sad day

When progressives are willing to give up their rights and live in a police state for the illusion of safety. There was a time when we thought the Patriot Act was against what we believe in but we are seeing people willing to go much much farther today.


But I don't want to be unreasonable. You tell me how many people will live if I get rid of my World War 1 era rifle. If you can assure me that number is 1 or greater I will go down, put the carbide wheel on my saw and chop the rifle into paperweights.

[LonePirate]

68. There is no reason for any American to own a gun. None. That right causes more harm than good.

If you think you're safe because of a gun or if you think giving up your gun will result in a police state, then you are not applying any logical thinking to the situation. Do you consider Great Britain or Australia to be police states?

Any progressive who does not recognize a fellow American's right to be alive as being more important than someone's right to own a death tool, then that person is not a progressive.

[sarisataka]

70. You may believe that,

But the CDC disagreed in the report they did for President Obama. Forgive me if I put more faith in the CDC than in random internet posters.


As a gun owner I may be member of a minority group of Democrats. However I am quite sure that the number who believe all guns should be banned is a much smaller minotity. And I will go so far as to say the number of Democrats are willing to give up 4th and 5th gradeamendment protection is miniscule.

[LonePirate]

71. We can agree to disagree. I'm anti-massacre and you seem to be pro-massacre. Nothing left to discuss

And yes, being pro-gun means being in support of future gun massacres. The lines in the sand have been drawn.

[sarisataka]

72. You don't even realize

You have echoed Bush the first and the Second.

That is more telling than attempted insults

[LonePirate]

75. You pro-gun people here at DU have offered no solutions.

All you have done is to shine a light on a disgusting and a deadly fetish that places no value on human life. I'd say my comparison of being pro-gun to being pro-massacre is pretty spot on.

[sarisataka]

76. I have seen many solutions offered

Some involving social inequality. I have put forth myself a whole laundry list of proposals; they were a "good start"

No one who is anti-gun wants to hear the latter because they are more concerned about guns than social issues. Anything put forth on the former is never good enough.

And I must point out at this juncture no "pro-gun" person supported any Republicans last general election. Even Democratic candidates who are strongly anti-gun received unwavering support.
The same cannot be said for the gun control side...

[Brainstormy]

114. You're a lone wolf of this but

you're absolutely right. I am one of those--and there are plenty more of us without a voice--who believe this. My right to live without constant fear should take moral precedence over the gun humpers twisted interpretation of an outdated, misinterpreted, and no longer relevant law.

[LonePirate]

60. Agreed! You can easily distinguish between the pro-massacre and anti-massacre posts in this thread.

[friendly_iconoclast]

148. "Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists"

[whathehell]

87. +1000

The lack of perspective is mind boggling.

[AncientGeezer]

155. You would be incorrect....but SCOTUS agrees with me

[Jim Beard]

100. Thats right, make them pay.... Put the into them and there will be compliance.

[Jim Beard]

84. It has worked in Australia.

[hack89]

89. We could not afford that kind of buy back

They also don't have a 2A.

[whathehell]

91. Oh please... Australia can afford it, but America can't?

Tell me another one.

[hack89]

92. Moot point regardless

It would be ignored in any case. Check out the compliance rates in CT and NY to their post Sandy Hook AWBs. Hell, in most red states do you think law enforcement would enforce it?

[Jim Beard]

94. Then they would really learn what a well regulated malita is.

Ask George Wallace.

[hack89]

95. Civil war. Sounds great

That will fix everything

[whathehell]

96. Then why did you make it?

Grasping at straws, I guess.

"It would be ignored anyway"...Not if a big fat fine and/or jail time accrued, and, in any case, it's certainly worth a try. As for law enforcement, sorry, but most cops are AGAINST assault weapons -- They only make their jobs harder.

[hack89]

97. Too late to do math

Deal with it tomorrow.

[whathehell]

101. Actually,

It's "too late" for gun lobby arguments, but whatever.

[hack89]

102. That's nice

Let me know when and where I have to turn in my guns. Any day now, right?

[whathehell]

105. Lol...You sound like all the Right Wingers who were

absolutely convinced that Obama was coming to 'take their guns".

[hack89]

108. Exactly the opposite.

I know I will enjoy my AR-15s until the day I die. Obama was good for gun owners. Just like the next Democratic President will. Why do you think voting for Dems comes easy to me? It is because they will never take my guns so I can ignore that issue completely.

Didn't think I needed the sarcasm smile.

[whathehell]

110. Goody goo goo!

[hack89]

117. Bless your heart. Nt

[whathehell]

125. ...and yours. n/t

[spin]

131. My mother and my daughter both used handguns for self defense. ...

My mother when she was in her late teens was attacked by a guy who was hiding behind some bushes as she was walking home from work many years ago after getting off a bus in a fairly remote area. He rushed her but she drew a revolver from her purse and fired two shoots over his head and he ran. If she wasn't armed I might never have been born.

My 18 year old daughter when alone in our house confronted an intruder forcing the sliding glass door in our kitchen open despite the fact that he had set off a burglar alarm. He told her he planned to rape her. She pointed a large caliber revolver at him and he wisely decided to run. She later married and now I am fortunate enough to have two grandsons.

Would being a young attractive female be enough reason under your rules to be allowed to own and carry a handgun.

I'm now 72 years old with degenerative disk disease and a candidate for a hip replacement. I walk with a very noticeable limp and therefore might be considered a weak member of the herd for a predator. Would that be a good enough reason for me to be legally allowed to carry a concealed revolver?

[Hoyt]

132. There's one big difference, most women aren't gun-humpers, training to kill and arming up to

shoot a bunch of people. They likely aren't going to bully people, pull a George Zimmerman or Paddock, play cowboy, or spend their weekends on militia maneuvers. Plus, they need to arm up against all the male spouses who are more likely to shoot their spouse than anyone else. They aren't going to promote more and more guns everywhere.

As to you carrying a gun -- you need to consider your age, fears, and whether you are on pain meds or anything else that might alter judgement. I'm almost your age, BTW. Also, it depends on whether you have a bunch of guns at home, or one pistol. Truthfully, there are better ways to protect yourself and I doubt you are going to be able to pull your gun in time to thwart a robbery. You guys seem to think a robber is going telegraph his intentions 100 yards away. They are not. They'll more likely be on you before you know it and will simply steal your gun and shoot you, before you can pull it. That's true, whether you are 21 of 80. Another BTW, at what age do you think you'll give up toting, like driving?

[spin]

136. I don't use pain killers as I have seen far too many people who have ...

become addicted to them. I used to take ibuprofen but my doctor warned me about the long term side effects.

I carry a snubnosed 5 round S&W Model 642 revolver in my pants pocket. If my situational awareness alerts me of possible danger I just put my hand in my pocket on the revolver. If absolutely necessary I can draw the weapon very quickly. In 20 years of carrying a revolver I only have done that twice. Fortunately I have never felt it necessary to draw my revolver. Before I would do so I would definitely have to be under attack by someone who intended to put me in the hospital for an extended period or six feet under and had the capability to do so.

I practice situational awareness. That in simple terms means that I don't walk around with a cell phone glued to my ears. I am alert to those around me and often that alone can deter an attack. Street thugs look for people who are lost in thremselves and unaware of the world surrounding them. If my situational alarm goes off I leave the area quickly if I can. I also don't play stupid games like going to an outdoor ATM late at night.

I plan to carry until I feel I no longer am able to use a gun to defend myself. That will most likely be many years from now.

[Hoyt]

137. How do you recognize these "street thugs," the same way some police do?

[spin]

140. One of the times I put my hand on my revolver was when I was walking ...

a small Boston Terrier in my neighborhood. A guy in his late thirties or early forties with a bad limp walked up to me and asked for money. Having lived in the Tampa Bay Area for many years prior to moving to a smaller town in Florida when I retired I had plenty of experience with panhandlers. None had ever caused me any concern.

Something about the way the guy was acting set off my situational alarm. I calmly put my hand in my pocket on my gun and told him, "Hey man, I'm just walking this dog and I don't have any money on me." He sized me up and decided to walk away.

At that time we had a police officer rooming with us. I described the individual to him and he knew right off who he was. He told me his name and mentioned he just got out of jail. The guy had a drug habit and a long history of arrest for burglary and for strong arm robbery of elderly people. The cop told me I was damn lucky to have avoided being attacked. He also mentioned that while the guy had a bad limp he could run like the wind when police were chasing him.

[Hoyt]

143. So in other words, if you had put your hand in your empty pocket, nothing likely would have happened

Heck, he probably figured your little dog would latch onto his ankle if he tried anything.

Truthfully, Spin, if all gunners were like you -- one small pistol vs. a closet/safe full of weapons like Paddock and even some of our DUers -- we really wouldn't have a gun problem. But they all aren't like you. Something beyond personal safety is going on, and it's especially bad among the right wingers.

[spin]

144. I remember one time when I was a little kid...

My father confronted a neighbor he caught moving the survey markers on our property for his advantage. The guy turned angry and menacing. My father calmly stuck his hand in his empty pants pocket and stared at the guy. The situation defused quickly but in the time frame it took my father to walk back to our house (we lived on a 29 acres plot of weeds and trees) the local sheriff showed up.

He asked my dad if he had a gun in his pocket as the guy had called the police. My dad just smiled and pulled his pockets out his pants and said, "No, I am not real fond of guns." My dad at the time was in his late 50s and the other guy was much younger and bigger.

I used that same trick once when I was in the service. A friend was in the parking lot of a fast food joint and was confronted by four angry locals apparently because he was dating a local girl in Mississippi. The locals didn't like airmen doing stuff like that.

I came out of the fast food joint and seen the altercation starting and it looked like it might be nasty. I walked up to behind the group and said calmly but loudly, "Are you having some problems Chet?" When the guys turned to look at me I calmly put my right hand in my empty pocket." While I can't say for sure that my actions worked, the situation ended immediately. Chet thanked me and said he was damn glad I showed up.

The difference with me today is that I really do have a snubnosed revolver in my pocket since concealed carry is legal where I live. Obviously I am not out looking for trouble because if I was I would pack something with far more rounds than a five shot mouse gun. As I said above I would only use my weapon if absolutely necessary and under attack by someone who intended to put me in the hospital or six feet under. The last thing in the world I ever hope to do is to be forced to draw and fire that revolver at another human being.

There are a lot of tricks you can use in a bad situation. In a jujitsu class I once attended the instructior talked about a student in his judo class. The student was in a large city making a call from one of those old time phone booths. He realized the booth was surrounded by a gang of young guys making faces and acting threatening towards him. He realized that even with his training he was at a significant disadvantage. He started yelling and cussing into the phone, slammed it down on its hook, ripped the door to the phone booth open and walked away cussing to himself. The gang just parted and watched him walk away. All ends well that ends well.

The object should be to avoid physical confrontations if at all possible. You only use your skills or weapon when there is no other choice and you realize your health or even life is on the line. If you find yourself in an argument with some angry individual just walk away even if it makes you look like a coward. Run away from trouble if you are swift. Fight to survive only if truly necessary and fight to win. Fighting dirty is totally exceptable in such dire situations. The jujitsu I was taught was nasty but effective. It was basically a course on advanced street fighting which mixed a number of martial arts together but eliminated all the rules.

[Hoyt]

146. Hopefully, you'll never need it. I've had a few run ins like that. The Gungeoneers

like to make fun of me using a bicycle in a couple of situations when someone in a truck tried to start some crap. Throw you helmet on the ground, start yelling I'll kick your rear, and pickup your bicycle over your head or take off the rear wheel sends guys running for their car/truck. There's something about rural drivers and someone on a long bicycle rid wearing biking shorts.

I'm not going to carry a gun while riding like some of these armed fools, and I don't think it would work as well anyway.

Take care.

[spin]

156. Deciding to legally carry a firearm requires a lot of careful thought. ...

You have to do a fair appraisal of yourself . If you have anger management problems, abuse alcohol or drugs or spend a lot of time fantasizing about being a hero it may be wise to avoid obtaining a carry permit.

You also have to realize that you are responsible for the damage a bullet might inflict on others if you miss your attacker. Practice with your weapon is important so you know how to use it proficiently and know your limits on accuracy. Also realize that under stress your skills on the range diminish significantly. People differ a lot under such stress. I once asked the range master at a pistol range who was a retired cop about this. He told me of an expert shooter in his police department who hit a telephone pole and a mail box in a fire fight and of another cop who always had a hard time qualifying on the range but killed a man who was attacking a woman with a knife with one shot.

Most people do not realize that even if you are totally in the right and shoot someone in legitimate self defense you may suffer significant psychological problems after the incident. You might also be sued by your attacker or his family. Legal expenses might bankrupt you. Also some anti gun prosecutors may decide to prosecute you in hopes of political gain. Even if Zimmerman was truly within his right to shoot Travon Martin it ruined his life. (In that case I feel Zimmerman is a prime example of the fact that if you go looking for trouble it will find you. If I had been in his shoes I might have called the police and let them check out what I thought might be a suspicious person.)

Chances are that you will never find yourself in a situation where it is necessary to use a firearm in self defense on the street. Street crime in our nation is not all that high nor are terrorist attacks.

When people ask me about carrying a weapon I usually do my best to discourage them. I often suggest they take a good self defense course instead.

My grandson's girl friend is extremely attractive and is interested in obtaining a carry permit. She has had a self defense course but is a tiny woman who would be at a significant disadvantage if attacked by a average or large man. She also has some experience with firearms. On the other hand my grandson has a quick temper and a lot of testosterone. He might not be a good candidate for a carry permit.

[treestar]

181. I thought you must not pull the gun out unless you intend

To shoot it and kill.

[spin]

183. My mother's incident happened back in the 1920s. ...

I'm not sure what the laws were at that time in Pennsylvania. She used a tiny S&W revolver that fired .22 short rounds. If she would have actually hit her attacker with the five rounds in the cylinder of the weapon her attacker would most likely have been simply enraged. The weapon she was using could be definitely called a mouse gun.

In my daughters case when I asked her why she didn't shoot the intruder, she told me that it was because I had told to never shoot someone if they were outside of the house. He was only halfway through the door when she drew down on him.

The only phone in the house at the time was a landline in the kitchen and was halfway between my daughter and her attacker. Once he had ran she called the cops and they arrived quickly. When they knocked on the door she told them she had a problem. She had the revolver in her hand but couldn't put it down. The responding officer told her to point the revolver at the floor and open the door. She did and he sat her down on the couch and pried her fingers off the gun.

I've known concealed carry instructors in Florida who have told their students that if you pull your handgun in self defense it better end up smoking.

The argument was that if a person pulls his concealed handgun and doesn't fire it he must not have really feared for his life. That seems to be solid advice to me. However often when an attacker realizes the victim is armed he does what the attackers did with my mother and my daughter—they turn and run. So if you don't shoot before he turns and he turns so quickly you don't have time to pull the trigger—what then? Obviously you don't want to shoot him in the back.

In 2014 Florida law changed. Now in Florida you can even fire warning shots.

Florida Extends 'Stand Your Ground' to Include Warning Shots
By GILLIAN MOHNEY Jun 21, 2014, 5:09 PM ET

An update of Florida's controversial "Stand Your Ground" law allows Floridians who threaten to use a gun or who fire a warning shot to protect themselves the chance to avoid criminal prosecution.

The change, signed into law Friday by Gov. Rick Scott, was partly inspired by the case of Marissa Alexander, 33, who was sentenced to 20 years in prison after firing a shot during a dispute with her allegedly abusive husband.

*** snip ***

While the law previously stated that the a person invoking "Stand Your Ground" had to "reasonably believe it is necessary" to use force to prevent bodily harm, it now reads that to use force or threaten to use force a person must also believe they are in imminent danger.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-extends-stand-ground-include-warning-shots/story?id=24244906

[Eliot Rosewater]

153. You could do all that if we could get 5 honest supreme court justices to reverse Heller

but it would be state by state, of course.

Would still be very dangerous states to pass through.

[whathehell]

77. Who in government has EVER called for a "ban on all guns"?

The call is for a ban on SOME guns, like assault weapons
that have no purpose beyond the efficient mass slaughter of human beings.

[hack89]

79. Plenty of posters on DU want to ban all guns.

That's all.

[whathehell]

82. Lol

"plenty of posters" on an internet site do not a government threat make.

[Kingofalldems]

85. Been here since 2004 and haven't seen one poster

who wants to ban guns. Got a link on that?

[Alea]

107. ...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9660903

One of many.

[Dr. Strange]

109. You're kidding right?

It’s Time to Ban Guns. Yes, All of Them.
Ban all Guns!!

[Kingofalldems]

135. Wow! Look how many responses it got!

Try again. One or 2 random people.

[Alea]

138. You ask for a link

You got 3. If I cared, or you cared, plenty more could be found. It was your statement not mine and it was refuted, as you ask, so you try again.

[sharedvalues]

115. All but hunting rifles. Get to where canada is.

No semi autos
No handguns
Single shot rifles only. With strong registration rules.

On a licensed shooting range you can fire whatever you want, but you can only bring hunting rifles home.

[hack89]

118. I don't think so

You can try if you want.

[sharedvalues]

119. It's what's right for america.

More guns means more deaths.

[hack89]

120. Really?

so how is it that we cut our murder and manslaughter rate in half from the early 1990's? Do you really think there are fewer guns now?

[sharedvalues]

121. Fewer guns, fewer people killed.

Sure, keep trying to move the goalpoasts to an unrelated effect: the decline of violence over the past few decades (which is true)


It doesnt change the original point: reducing guns means reducing deaths. Period.

So let's work on reducing guns. Personally I think a handgun ban is a good goal.

[hack89]

122. Except we significantly reduced gun deaths as gun ownership sky rocketed.

the number of gun deaths was also significant cut. How is that possible with more guns in circulation?

[sharedvalues]

128. A blinkered argument

Just one possible scenario: if gun ownership had held constant crime would have fallen farther.

I'll tell you one thing. I live in Chicago. Near to me several kids have been shot in crossfire. If we had a handgun ban those kids would be less likely to be shot, and my kids would be at lower risk of getting shot in future. How can people say we should do nothing about handguns and put those kids at risk?

[Straw Man]

129. Canada?

Get to where canada is.

No semi autos
No handguns
Single shot rifles only. With strong registration rules.

None of that is Canadian law except the registration part, and that is only for "restricted" and "prohibited" firearms (which aren't actually prohibited, but are more tightly regulated). This basically means handguns and "assault" style rifles. Anything else is A-OK. Here's a sample of unrestricted firearms in Canada:

https://www.huntinggearguy.com/rifle-reviews/top-10-non-restricted-black-rifles-in-canada/

[sharedvalues]

133. Canada has few shootings, and restricted handguns

Canada has a lot of guns, but they're mostly hunting type rifles. Handguns are restricted.

http://www.businessinsider.com/canada-australia-japan-britain-gun-control-2013-1

And Canada has little gun crime. It's no coincidence.

[Straw Man]

139. The article you cite has erroneous info.

They, like you, don't understand the levels of restriction in Canadian law. AR-15 rifles are on the "prohibited" list, but that merely means a higher level of scrutiny before purchase.

[sharedvalues]

161. Canada has mainly rifles, and few deaths

Canada restricts guns. They end up with mainly hunting rifles in homes. Handguns are hard to get.

And they have very low gun crime.

We should do that. If we care about kids getting killed with guns in the US.

[Straw Man]

162. Could you possibly be any more vague?

Canada restricts guns. They end up with mainly hunting rifles in homes. Handguns are hard to get.

And they have very low gun crime.

Hunting rifles like these? All of these are unrestricted in Canada:

https://www.huntinggearguy.com/rifle-reviews/top-10-non-restricted-black-rifles-in-canada/

It is no harder to legally acquire a handgun in Canada than it is in New York or California. In fact, it is easier to legally acquire one in Canada than it is in New York City. What Canadians can't do is carry them.

It's very clear that you know nothing about Canadian gun laws, nor do you seem at all interested in learning about them.

[sharedvalues]

165. Canada heavily restricts guns. And they have low gun crime.

You:

What Canadians can't do is carry (handguns).

That's the point. Thanks for making it for me.

And Canada has a very low rate of gun crime. We should be more like Canada.

[Straw Man]

167. Eh?

You:

What Canadians can't do is carry (handguns).

That's the point. Thanks for making it for me.

And Canada has a very low rate of gun crime. We should be more like Canada.

So your contention is that the bulk of gun crime in the US is caused by people who are legally carrying handguns? I'm sorry, but your point fails miserably.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

185. IMHO numerous ideas for gun restrictions...

...are rooting in a combination of good intentions and insufficient reflection/discussion. I so value many folks who are willing to ardently and thoughtfully discuss the topic from the pro-restriction side. I believe that mostly everyone has blind-spots in their belief system (I know I do) and that discussion and debate is the primary means for mitigating or removing those impairments. OTOH there are likely some pro-RKBA folks also avoiding discussion.

[sarisataka]

4. Does pro gun control mean

Pro ban? If a person is not pro ban are they pro gun?

Depending on the survey, 20-30% of Democrats are gun owners.

[HopeAgain]

10. And would they not give up anything other than legitimate sporting weapons

for the sake of our safety? If not, the party doesn't need them.

[sarisataka]

15. Begging the question

What is a legitimate sporting weapon?

Also what about those who want a pistol for self defense?

If I were to tally up the number of people the party "doesn't need" it will be a very small tent. We can push away all of the people we don't need, just realise we don't "need" the Senate, House, White House or state governments either. We can be a party of non-gun owning, never voted Republican, never voted third party, non Midwest, Southern, rust belt or any other rural state purists; we just won't hold many offices.

[HopeAgain]

18. All this practicality has gotten us where with guns?

We couldn't do any worse...

[sarisataka]

19. Never say

It can't get worse, we said that when 'W'was in office

Look where going head to head with the NRA and demonizing all gun owners has ended up. I know many gun owners who despise the NRA but when the alternative is "melt 'em down you tiny dicked racist ammosexuals" they don't want to flock to that banner either.

A baby step towards improvement is still a step forward, not back. Continued culture war will continue the same results.

[HopeAgain]

21. What is a legitimate sporting weapon

I don't and never have owned a gun, but I grew up in the west, and even I know the difference between an assault weapon, a target gun and a hunting rifle. That's a cop out.

[Brainstormy]

26. Absolutely! n/t

[sarisataka]

29. No cop out

If you are codifying it into law, the definition will be critical.
If it is giving up non-sporting weapons voluntarily you are relying on judgement of people you don't trust to own them.

[Hoyt]

56. Stonewalling.

[sarisataka]

59. Yes but I have come

To expect people are unwilling to define themselves and instead toss out vague descriptors.

I am an optimist however and hope to someday find the person who actually is willing to work for solutions.

[Jim Beard]

93. Just legalize the same style guns we had 70 years ago. And make the newer ones illegal unless they h

have GPS chips and fingerprint ID.

[AncientGeezer]

147. My Garand is fine then...1 of the greatest battle tested semi's ever built

that fires a much larger and more lethal projectile than any .223 on the market?

[EX500rider]

149. So like Tommy guns then?

From 1918:

[sharedvalues]

116. If gun owners had real courage and skill

They'd use a bow to hunt. Rifles make it too easy.

[sarisataka]

123. I don't think a bow takes more courage

Unless you are hunting dangerous game.

Bows are not the best for all hunting.
The only hunting I have done in the last decade is varmint hunting for farmers that don't want to poison pests. The other is my daughter has asked to go squirrel hunting the last three years. We have yet to spot a squirrel were we can take a shot but bagging our limit is not a priority.
A bow would not be the best choice for either.

[sharedvalues]

126. Gun hunting is the easy way out

The whole point is not to use the best choice, it's to use a real weapon that requires skill.

[Straw Man]

141. Add hunting to the list of things you don't understand.

The whole point is not to use the best choice, it's to use a real weapon that requires skill.

How about spears? There's a real degree of difficulty.

Hunting with firearms insures a quick, humane kill. Adding unnecessary degrees of difficulty increases the likelihood that the animal will be wounded and will escape to die slowly and painfully.

[sharedvalues]

159. Maybe people are just afraid to use a bow - not strong enough to pull it?

Maybe the gun hunters just need to take the easy way out with a big powerful gun?

Back long ago when I was a kid bow hunters took pride in their practice and shot.

[Straw Man]

163. Bows are fine in certain locales.

Woods hunting, for example. On the plains, not so much: very hard to get within effective range.

All kinds of hunters take pride in their skill, and rightly so. Do you really think that gun hunting doesn't take skill? Please educate yourself.

[sharedvalues]

164. Bows are what real hunters use

where I come from

[Straw Man]

168. Bows are for wimps.

Real hunters hunt with knives ...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9675183

... where I come from.

[sharedvalues]

174. Yup. Bow plus knife. Guns are for skinny weak types

[Straw Man]

176. See the linked post.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9679695

[sarisataka]

142. My goals for hunting are twofold

First, to get out in nature, introducing others as well to the outdoors and conservation. I do the same with geocaching and orienteering outside of hunting season.

Second is to obtain game for food or eliminate a destructive animal. In both cases it must be a quick, humane kill. I am not skilled with a bow so I will not use one, risking a poor shot resulting in a lingering death

I do not concern myself with how "easy" it may be as I am not hunting as any symbol or assurance of manhood.

[sharedvalues]

160. Do you use a tree stand? Bring beer or other alcohol?

Also - Normally when people are engaged in sports, and they're not good at it, they practice, they don't just take the easy way out. You could practice with the bow.

[Straw Man]

166. Do you have any other goal besides casting aspersions ...

... on people who hunt with guns? OK, I'll play ...

Bows are for wimps who are afraid to get too close to their prey. Real hunters hunt with knives.

http://goneoutdoors.com/hunt-deer-knife-6873215.html

[sharedvalues]

173. Bow hunters have to have a knife.

You shoot the arrow to bring the target down. It's rare the arrow kills, so real men carry a knife to use instead of a second shot.

[Straw Man]

175. Right.

You shoot the arrow to bring the target down. It's rare the arrow kills, so real men carry a knife to use instead of a second shot.

So you believe that prolonging the suffering of the animal makes the whole enterprise more "sporting." Got it.

[sharedvalues]

177. A totally disingenuous response

As a bow hunter (a real hunter) it is incumbent upon you to practice to make sure your shot is as true as possible.

[Straw Man]

178. Disingenuous? No, merely factual.

As a bow hunter (a real hunter) it is incumbent upon you to practice to make sure your shot is as true as possible.

As it is with a rifle hunter. The fact remains that of the two weapons, a rifle is far more capable of delivering a single, instantly fatal hit, minimizing the suffering of the animal. That is irrefutable.

[sharedvalues]

180. Bows also take strength and practice to shoot well.

Anyone can shoot a gun, even when there is some recoil.

Bow hunters tend to be stronger and more confident. No surprise due to the nature of their weapon.

[Straw Man]

182. Really? I had no idea.

Bows also take strength and practice to shoot well.

Thank you for your very clear explanation of the bloody obvious.

Anyone can shoot a gun, even when there is some recoil.

Anyone can pull a trigger. Shooting well requires practice and physical skill. Your lack of experience grows more glaringly obvious with every post.

Bow hunters tend to be stronger and more confident. No surprise due to the nature of their weapon.

How about people who hunt with bows and firearms? Do they suffer from identity crises?

[sarisataka]

170. No tree stand

I prefer the ability to move.

Never any alcohol, although as much as I drink, I can make a six pack last three years.

I've tried a bow at an archery range. While I did better that my attempt to hit the ball at the driving range, it was quite pathetic.

My daughter does want to now hunt. I take her to a nearby public range. I use a manual to catch her and other archers have been very helpful with tips. Maybe next season she will go with her uncle and his family, who all bowhunt. I will be the camp cook...

[Marengo]

179. You don't think a firearm requires skill? What and how often do you shoot? At what ranges and...

At what range? What types of game do you hunt?

[whathehell]

78. Agreed.

Their right to their little "toys" is far outweighed by our right to live with a reasonable expectation of public safety.

[Jim Beard]

86. There just aren't that many hunters compared to the entire population anymore.

They set out Pheasants on purpose in the Texas Panhandle in the 1980's so the ""Sportsmen"" could hunt. It was a big thing but it has gradually shriveled to nothing and the worst part, the Pheasants which were not native to the area ran off the Quail.

[gopiscrap]

2. totally agree

[LibArts]

14. Heres how

[link:https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=747075505477276&set=a.108233682694798.10224.100005244999496&type=3|

Im not a spammer or hacker. The link came from Daily Kos where I am a life member.


NO AMMO WITHOUT EXTENSIVE TESTS

[burnbaby]

16. how does one justify that comment

people use guns to hunt and feed their families, isn't that pro life

[Brainstormy]

27. where is that?

I'm curious. Isn't it more that people who like to kill animals sometimes eat their kill?

[Hoyt]

44. 6% of the population hunted in the last 12 months, and I bet most of those went to drink and talk

white wing, Trump type crap, rather than having to hunt to feed their families. It would be better to pay for filet mignon for life for anyone who asserts they can't feed their family without shooting deer.

[NutmegYankee]

22. Cool. Abortion should be legal in all cases.

[JoeStuckInOH]

28. Said otherwise, "If I am Pro Gun Control, I am Pro Life"? I can't be Pro Gun Conrtrol & Pro Choice?

[lindysalsagal]

53. If you're not pro-healthcare and pro-education

You're a sleazy, racist, selfish, scumbag, and you're un-american. Oh, yeah: You're not "pro-life", either.

[Alea]

67. Maybe the 30-35% of our party that owns guns should leave the party

Last edited Tue Oct 3, 2017, 07:38 PM - Edit history (1)

Seems that's what some people here want, and have clearly stated it. I'm a gun owner and a True Democrat. More so than someone that says random searches of gun owners and CCW holders houses and draconian prison sentences for people found with a gun on a "list" is. That's Hitleristic and stalinist thinking, not Democrat.

[Hoyt]

88. Maybe they ought to decide what's more important, all the friggin guns they can afford or

agreeing to something that actually helps keep the Paddocks, Zimmermans, Roofs, Militia groups, racists, intimidators, spousal abusers, bullies, etc., from getting enough to massacre 59 people or directly or indirectly contribute to the death or injury of innocent people.

[friendly_iconoclast]

150. If gun owners leave the Democratic Party, nothing will stop "the Paddocks, Zimmermans, Roofs,..."

as no gun control at all will be passed by the ensuing Republican supermajority, and any extant laws
would be rolled back.

[Hoyt]

151. Glad to see you guys coming out of hiding from the Gungeon with RW BS.

[friendly_iconoclast]

154. Did I misrepresent what you wrote? If so, kindly point out where

[Jim Beard]

90. I own 9 long guns, shotguns and the rest are lever action. I can't remember the last time I used the

them.

[misanthrope]

80. It makes perfect sense to me.

If you're an enthusiast and advocate of tools designed for killing people then don't you need targets?

[chillfactor]

106. amen!

[Lil Missy]

111. apples and oranges n/t

[LeftInTX]

134. The hypocrisy on the right.

They love their guns, death penalty and war.

I hate that they co-opted the word "life"...

A friend of mine alerted me to the fact after the 64 election, the right secretly got serious about selling their image.