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ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 06:58 AM Oct 2017

So many people here defending Columbus...

Regardless of whether or not Columbus actually "discovered" our fair nation (that had numerous peoples already living in it at the time), he was undoubtedly involved in the rape of the West Indies and a participant in the slave trade.

Columbus established Spanish colonies that forced natives to surrender gold to the crown.
Columbus led an expedition against the Taino people of Hispaniola.
Columbus enslaved native people and sent them to Spain.

We rightfully deplore the continuing government support of Confederate statues, even those of common soldiers who did not own slaves. However, for some reason various folks here at DU continue to support statues and other honors for Columbus, a man who was actually a slaver.


http://www2.fiu.edu/~cookn/cuneo1.pdf
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/11/04/opinion/l-slavery-and-colonialism-make-up-the-true-legacy-of-columbus-866089.html
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Christopher-Columbus/The-first-voyage#toc25449

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So many people here defending Columbus... (Original Post) ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 OP
This message was self-deleted by its author AngryAmish Oct 2017 #1
Well Columbus defenders... N_E_1 for Tennis Oct 2017 #2
De la Casas likely embellished because he preferred Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #6
Did this guy exaggerate when he said Columbus gave him a native woman as a slave? ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #11
What does that have to do with De Las Casas? Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #14
Kinda what happened yuiyoshida Oct 2017 #24
As to the French and Brits, ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #117
Uh 4th of July...all those dudes held slaves Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #143
Not sure what this means. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #156
You obviously don't know de las Casas. L. Coyote Oct 2017 #37
De Las Casas had an agenda and most historians Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #95
Probably? Seriously, you are going to argue probably? L. Coyote Oct 2017 #96
Uh no, he promoted enslaving Africans in lieu of Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #98
Says you. But you can't document that. Read what he wrote. He opposed slavery. L. Coyote Oct 2017 #108
Says history.... Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #129
The Russians are everywhere... Vinnie From Indy Oct 2017 #3
I suppose the Russians were also behind the desire to remove Confederate statues? nt ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #5
Russians played both sides on #BLM sharedvalues Oct 2017 #32
So were the Russians running the effort, or were they bit players. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #118
Russia seeded issues into public debate sharedvalues Oct 2017 #136
So now I want you to clarify something. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #154
But, whatabout the racism in the white house? sharedvalues Oct 2017 #178
Hey, at least you are conceding that I am not a Russian agent! It's a start! ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #181
TrumpRussia, TrumpRacism are both far more important. We have limited resources. sharedvalues Oct 2017 #182
That's where you are wrong. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #183
TrumpRussia and GOP racism now. sharedvalues Oct 2017 #184
Oh, come on. Orrex Oct 2017 #4
Russia propaganda TV in America - RT - has employees fleeing sharedvalues Oct 2017 #33
Wait. What? Orrex Oct 2017 #34
Russia, to divide Americans, uses RT and social media sharedvalues Oct 2017 #35
Right, but what does that have to do with what I posted? Orrex Oct 2017 #39
I'll give you three guesses.... jcmaine72 Oct 2017 #75
Oh. Russia created the story that Columbus Day is a real holiday. Orrex Oct 2017 #76
No. You missed my point. jcmaine72 Oct 2017 #79
Well, if it makes you feel any better, we're on the same page about that. Orrex Oct 2017 #102
It was 1492. It was a different world back then. History is was history is. Trust Buster Oct 2017 #7
The 1860s were a different time too. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #9
We committed massacres in Korea and Viet Nam in the 1950s and the 1960s based on the Trust Buster Oct 2017 #15
More than a "fool's errand," most of this is a wired-in hostility toward one's own Hortensis Oct 2017 #61
Bingo. Give this poster a cigar. Trust Buster Oct 2017 #71
TOTALLY on point! nt Raine Oct 2017 #113
Yes, but we also don't have a "Westmoreland Day" nt ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #119
Westmoreland was a general in the military fighting in a foreign war 50 years ago. Trust Buster Oct 2017 #138
I'm interested to find out what you think "myopic" means. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #139
For better or for worse, the guy is credited with discovering america. I doubt that will change. Trust Buster Oct 2017 #141
I am not trying to change that, so much as trying to make sure we are not honoring the man ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #155
There is no "Italian-American Day." WinkyDink Oct 2017 #83
History is now loyalsister Oct 2017 #150
No one here is defending Columbus oberliner Oct 2017 #8
If you are not interested in changing the name, then you are implicitly defending the man. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #10
That's your formulation oberliner Oct 2017 #12
You agree that naming a town after a man confers an honor, ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #13
How far do you want to take this? Columbia is the poetic name for America - you think Midwestern Democrat Oct 2017 #110
South Park suggested British Columbia drop "Columbia" EllieBC Oct 2017 #111
How far do you? We are removing Confederate monuments, ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #120
Really? Did you happen to see the thread I created on this topic? jcmaine72 Oct 2017 #77
Sure about that? Bradshaw3 Oct 2017 #106
I am not defending columbus tymorial Oct 2017 #16
The absurdity of applying 21st century value to the 15th century comradebillyboy Oct 2017 #40
Exactly yet sadly the use has become fashionable and expected. tymorial Oct 2017 #45
It's so much easier to jerk one's knee than it is to think. nocalflea Oct 2017 #57
Ahh yes, feelings. tymorial Oct 2017 #67
"The Age of Reason" - bah, who needs it. nocalflea Oct 2017 #68
Christopher Columbus was a slaver, ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #121
America wiped out the Native Americans, yet we still celebrate this country. Correct? n/t USALiberal Oct 2017 #17
How Dare You! Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #97
Great point! n/t USALiberal Oct 2017 #148
The Confederates held slaves, and we are removing their monuments. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #122
We committed atrocities Polly Hennessey Oct 2017 #18
Amerigo Vespucci Dyedinthewoolliberal Oct 2017 #22
Thanks, dyedinthewoolliberal. Polly Hennessey Oct 2017 #63
Thanks, dyedinthewoolliberal. Polly Hennessey Oct 2017 #64
No one cares about Columbus day standingtall Oct 2017 #19
Echoing talking points of Russia and the GOP sharedvalues Oct 2017 #29
"Why do we think Columbus is suddenly such a hot topic?" Because Columbus Day is tomorrow! Towlie Oct 2017 #43
Which nobody remembers until they are reminded standingtall Oct 2017 #47
...... octoberlib Oct 2017 #86
Except my freaking credit union, who won't process payments that day. Coventina Oct 2017 #46
Columbus was a murder rockfordfile Oct 2017 #20
GOP (and Russia) talking point sharedvalues Oct 2017 #36
Talking point or not, it is true. pangaia Oct 2017 #65
It helps divide Dems. So GOP and Russia like it when we argue sharedvalues Oct 2017 #84
Well, then can we argue about..... beer brands? pangaia Oct 2017 #87
Columbus doesn't divide Dems. Everybody knows he was a racist POS, as were a lot of octoberlib Oct 2017 #88
I'm not a Columbus defender and am glad we (as a nation) are moving away from Columbus Day. Dyedinthewoolliberal Oct 2017 #21
spreading the gospel and superiority of christians. worked at the time nt msongs Oct 2017 #23
They're still at it ! YOHABLO Oct 2017 #69
This message was self-deleted by its author tenderfoot Oct 2017 #25
Its a good thing Columbus Didn't come to Hawaii yuiyoshida Oct 2017 #26
Oh look, another thing to be outraged over Alea Oct 2017 #27
Ancestors...wha...? Iggo Oct 2017 #49
Good, because I don't have any connection to columbus Alea Oct 2017 #56
Do you care about the people who do care about it? Because we're on your side, right? Iggo Oct 2017 #60
Yeah you do gabeana Oct 2017 #100
Both sides of my family were here before columbus n/t Alea Oct 2017 #112
Exactly true Bettie Oct 2017 #92
Russians want to divide America and democrats sharedvalues Oct 2017 #28
Russia has nothing to do with this. It's about the false narrative they've been brain washing YOHABLO Oct 2017 #70
Russia is on social media now backing this talking point. sharedvalues Oct 2017 #85
Yesterday: anti-Putin protests all over Russia sharedvalues Oct 2017 #30
Follow Bill Browser: Magnitsky act, Russia's attacks on the west sharedvalues Oct 2017 #31
Columbus was a damn dirty liar,mass murder and rapist HipChick Oct 2017 #38
Any Columbus statues to tear down? ileus Oct 2017 #41
one in San Francisco yuiyoshida Oct 2017 #42
Eve ate an apple. Why are you not having a fit over that? sarah FAILIN Oct 2017 #44
Persephone ate six pomegranate seeds ProudLib72 Oct 2017 #48
THIS IS TRUE!! sarah FAILIN Oct 2017 #50
Why are we removing statues of Robert E. Lee? ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #123
I believe you have very few posts sarah FAILIN Oct 2017 #151
Oh, oh I get it. My post count is lower than yours so I need not have an opinion! ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #159
The difference is, she has been here since 2008. She has a rapport. n/t musicblind Oct 2017 #165
Are you interested in making an argument? ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #166
You may have more posts than me by next week at the rate you're going sarah FAILIN Oct 2017 #179
Once again, how does that mean my opinion matters less? ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #180
I'm having a bout Turbineguy Oct 2017 #51
The logical conclusion for opponents would be Sneederbunk Oct 2017 #52
If it hadn't been Columbus, then who? Henry the Navigator? Captain Cook? And if so, would any demosincebirth Oct 2017 #53
I defend Columbus, I get day off with pay because of him. demosincebirth Oct 2017 #54
Hey, you got yours! Iggo Oct 2017 #55
lmao romanic Oct 2017 #73
I don't give a single shit about Columbus or his Day melman Oct 2017 #58
Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2017 #59
Oh? tenderfoot Oct 2017 #62
Look Columbus never got to America period, Historic NY Oct 2017 #66
We haven't yet seen the "CC discovered America" guy yet. longship Oct 2017 #72
Careful or you'll be accused of being a Russian spy for speaking the truth about Columbus jcmaine72 Oct 2017 #74
applying moral standards 500 years later is pretty disingenuous beachbum bob Oct 2017 #78
Then why not leave all those statues to Jeff Davis alone, eh? nt ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #124
When you say "So many people here defending Columbus" left-of-center2012 Oct 2017 #80
I don't know about many Bradshaw3 Oct 2017 #105
1. Dresden. Hiroshima/Nagasaki. Vietnam. Iraq. 2. So basically you're saying that anywhere one human WinkyDink Oct 2017 #81
I always find it kind of bizarre to see historical figures judged by values that were not held milestogo Oct 2017 #82
I agree, I suppose Aristotle & Plato get the ax next. EX500rider Oct 2017 #89
Confederates fought for slavery and we want to get rid of their statues, ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #126
There are many great historical figures who had slaves milestogo Oct 2017 #130
Do any of them have a national holiday named for them? nt ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #131
4th of July Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #149
Wait, there was a signor named "4th of July"? ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #153
Washington's Birthday Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #168
Wait, there was a signor named "President"? ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #169
Nope. Go to OPM and look up Federal Holidays Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #170
Are you kidding me? ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #173
Well, I for one would rather find a less controversial name Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #174
I am in agreement with you. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #175
Most people here don't even know WHY it's a federal holiday Drahthaardogs Oct 2017 #176
To be fair, it is easy to assume considering it is named after the guy. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #177
I have yet to see anyone Defend CC on DU. GulfCoast66 Oct 2017 #90
I'm not defending but I did stop giving any fucks around 1572 cbdo2007 Oct 2017 #91
It makes no difference what he "discovered" ... what does matter is what he did and was... Ferrets are Cool Oct 2017 #93
I'm not "defending Columbus." I'm defending our right to not have really stupid fights ... Hekate Oct 2017 #94
Yes, exactly! nt Raine Oct 2017 #104
Go ahead and defend a holiday for the guy who took slaves. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #127
That's most of human history and all cultures at one time or another. There is no land... Hekate Oct 2017 #146
I agree about history, ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #158
+1. nt tblue37 Oct 2017 #152
Adam Ruins Everything - Christopher Columbus Was a Murderous Moron clutterbox1830 Oct 2017 #99
I don't care. Give me my day off back!! :P RandySF Oct 2017 #101
whatever... Raine Oct 2017 #103
How many righteous people who get tomorrow off as a Holiday will be taking it? brooklynite Oct 2017 #107
My office is closed, and our clients are also closed. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #128
These days i don't have any outrage left for this annual battle nini Oct 2017 #109
If we're going to start being scrupulously honest about our history, let's work backwards WinkyDink Oct 2017 #114
I used to laugh about that in grade school, 60 years ago......... raven mad Oct 2017 #115
I deal with it by spending the day honoring Peter Falk. Buns_of_Fire Oct 2017 #116
This message was self-deleted by its author JonLP24 Oct 2017 #125
Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2017 #132
Time for some music! johnp3907 Oct 2017 #133
Finally someone is tackling this urgent issue. bluepen Oct 2017 #134
Trump said almost the same thing about Confederate statues... ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #140
So you think there is no more pressing issue. bluepen Oct 2017 #144
This is a right-wing argument that you are making. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #157
I figured you wouldnt address what I just said. bluepen Oct 2017 #162
Your point was that there are other more important issues, and I agree. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #163
So we agree, at least on the first point you noted. Sort of. bluepen Oct 2017 #164
You are trying to be rude. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #167
We agree again. Trump is a problem; guns are a problem. bluepen Oct 2017 #171
You might as well criticize DU posters for commenting about sports. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #172
Ha! looks like the biggest defense against your OP is to call you a Russian and the best argument lunasun Oct 2017 #135
It is disgusting -- it is EXACTLY like having a Happy Hitler Day in Germany obamanut2012 Oct 2017 #137
Every holiday, the righteous and pure tell me why not to engage or solemnize for my own good. LanternWaste Oct 2017 #142
You are speaking of your individual experience of the holiday, which is fine. ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #161
Good summary: Happy Bartolome day sharedvalues Oct 2017 #145
So should we eliminate Independence Day? Willie Pep Oct 2017 #147
Where did the bad "Independence" touch you? ExciteBike66 Oct 2017 #160

Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

N_E_1 for Tennis

(9,664 posts)
2. Well Columbus defenders...
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:46 AM
Oct 2017

Defend this...

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/10/five-scary-christopher-columbus-quotes-that-let-you-celebrate-the-holiday-the-right-way-2/

-snip-

You’ve probably heard lots of great things about Christopher Columbus and tons of inspiring quotes from him about hard work, god, the sea etc. But those don’t really capture what Columbus and the colonial expansion of which he was part were all about. So, without further ado, allow me to present these quotes that you may not have heard, from or about Christopher Columbus.

1. Conquest: the perfect chaser for expelling Muslims and Jews. You don’t have to be an academic to link Spain’s colonial expansion abroad with its inquisition at home. Columbus made the connection himself. Of course he saw this as a good thing, not a bad one– a killer combo, if you will. He wrote to King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Spain

-snip-



Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
14. What does that have to do with De Las Casas?
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:02 AM
Oct 2017

And really, as we sit in America drinking a latte, typing on a tablet criticizing Columbus makes me shake my head.

The French sucked too. So did the Brits did as well. Colonization is not nice.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
143. Uh 4th of July...all those dudes held slaves
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 10:06 AM
Oct 2017

And I suggest you read up on slavery in New Spain vs. America. A few highlights....

1) children of slaves were born free

2) slavery was ended 100 years earlier in New Spain than America.

The Brits were the cruelest fucks every from South Africa to India.

I know this doesn't fit your narrative but, FACTs...

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
156. Not sure what this means.
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 06:03 AM
Oct 2017

"I know this doesn't fit your narrative but, FACTs..."

What does that even mean? Do you think I am an anglophile or something? I think the Brits were terrible just like the Spanish! Are you arguing that there are "nice" forms of slavery?

As to your comment title, there were no signors of the DI named "4th of July", so the holiday doesn't confer any particular honor upon them individually.

L. Coyote

(51,129 posts)
37. You obviously don't know de las Casas.
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:47 PM
Oct 2017

I know him well, we were introduced by Frederick Douglas, and Bartolome told me:

"…forty-nine years have passed since the first settlers penetrated the land, the first so claimed being the large and most happy isle called Hispaniola, … This large island was perhaps the most densely populated place in the world … all the land so far discovered is a beehive of people; it is as though God had crowded into these lands the great majority of mankind."

"And of all the infinite universe of humanity, these people are the most guileless, the most devoid of wickedness and duplicity, the most obedient and faithful to their native masters and to the Spanish Christians whom they serve. They are by nature the most humble, patient, and peaceable, holding no grudges, free from embroilments, neither excitable nor quarrelsome. These people are the most devoid of rancors, hatreds, or desire for vengeance of any people in the world … they not only possess little but have no desire to possess worldly goods. For this reason they are not arrogant, embittered, or greedy.… They are very clean in their persons, with alert, intelligent minds, docile and open to doctrine, very apt to receive our holy Catholic faith, to be endowed with virtuous customs, and to behave in a godly fashion."

"…into this land of meek outcasts there came some Spaniards who immediately behaved like ravening wild beasts, wolves, tigers, or lions that had been starved for many days. And Spaniards have behaved in no other way during the past forty years, down to the present time, for they are still acting like ravening beasts, killing, terrorizing, afflicting, torturing, and destroying the native peoples, doing all this with the strangest and most varied new methods of cruelty, never seen or heard of before, and to such a degree that this Island of Hispaniola once so populous (having a population that I estimated to be more than three million), has now a population of barely two hundred persons."

"The island of Cuba is… now almost completely depopulated. San Juan [Puerto Rico] and Jamaica are two of the largest, most productive and attractive islands; both are now deserted and devastated. On the northern side of Cuba and Hispaniola the neighboring Lucayos comprising more than sixty islands … have the healthiest lands in the world, where lived more than five hundred thousand souls; they are now deserted, inhabited by not a single living creature. All the people were slain or died after being taken into captivity and brought to the Island of Hispaniola to be sold as slaves. When the Spaniards saw that some of these had escaped, they sent a ship to find them, and it voyaged for three years among the islands searching for those who had escaped being slaughtered…"

"More than thirty other islands in the vicinity of San Juan are for the most part and for the same reason depopulated…"

"As for the vast mainland, which is ten times larger than all Spain, … we are sure that our Spaniards, with their cruel and abominable acts, have devastated the land and exterminated the rational people who fully inhabited it. We can estimate very surely and truthfully that in the forty years that have passed, with the infernal actions of the Christians, there have been unjustly slain more than twelve million men, women, and children. In truth, I believe without trying to deceive myself that the number of the slain is more like fifteen million."

"Their reason for killing and destroying such an infinite number of souls is that the Christians have an ultimate aim, which is to acquire gold, and to swell themselves with riches in a very brief time…"

"… the Indians began to seek ways to throw the Christians out of their lands.… And the Christians, with their horses and swords and pikes began to carry out massacres and strange cruelties against them. They attacked the towns and spared neither the children nor the aged nor pregnant women nor women in childbed, not only stabbing them and dismembering them but cutting them to pieces as if dealing with sheep in the slaughter house. They laid bets as to who, with one stroke of the sword, could split a man in two or could cut off his head or spill out his entrails with a single stroke of the pike. They took infants from their mothers' breasts, snatching them by the legs and pitching them headfirst against the crags or snatched them by the arms and threw them into the rivers, roaring with laughter and saying as the babies fell into the water, 'Boil there, you offspring of the devil!' Other infants they put to the sword along with their mothers and anyone else who happened to be nearby. They made some low wide gallows on which they hanged victim's feet almost touched the ground, stringing up their victims in lots of thirteen, in memory of Our Redeemer and His twelve Apostles, then set burning wood at their feet and thus burned them alive. To others they attached straw or wrapped their whole bodies in straw and set them afire. With still others, all those they wanted to capture alive, they cut off their hands and hung them round the victim's neck, saying, 'Go now, carry the message,' meaning, Take the news to the Indians who have fled to the mountains. … survivors were distributed among the Christians to be slaves."

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
95. De Las Casas had an agenda and most historians
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:27 PM
Oct 2017

Say he was probably lying to make his point more salient.

Quoting passages he wrote that are probably exaggerated doesn't bolster them. What is your point? If they are embellished, posting more of them does not increase the authenticity

L. Coyote

(51,129 posts)
96. Probably? Seriously, you are going to argue probably?
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:32 PM
Oct 2017

Yes, de las Casas had an agenda, defending the Indigenous Peoples from certain genocide, have them decreed human by the Crown and Church, and ending slavery. He was appointed Universal Protector of the Indians to prosecute the abuses. It was his job to write about it and present the evidence.

L. Coyote

(51,129 posts)
108. Says you. But you can't document that. Read what he wrote. He opposed slavery.
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 12:12 AM
Oct 2017
His claim to fame is his opposition to slavery. That was what set him apart.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
118. So were the Russians running the effort, or were they bit players.
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:18 AM
Oct 2017

And are you arguing that this means we should not remove Confederate monuments?

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
136. Russia seeded issues into public debate
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 08:19 AM
Oct 2017

Did you see the fake BLM actors they hired? Who knows what else was done on social media.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
154. So now I want you to clarify something.
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 05:59 AM
Oct 2017

Do you think we should have Confederate statues in public places or no?

Regardless of Russia's activity in the Confederate statue controversy, there are plenty of Americans who also want the statues to come down.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
178. But, whatabout the racism in the white house?
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 09:10 PM
Oct 2017

Do you think we should have a racist in the white house, or no?
Do you think we should have a liar and propagandist as a press secretary, or no?

Our time is not infinite. This is a critical point in US history. The racist in the white house is going to do far more damage to indigenous people in the next 2 years than ANYTHING having to do with Columbus.

Focus. Work. Stop the GOP and Trump. Then worry about Columbus in 2021.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
181. Hey, at least you are conceding that I am not a Russian agent! It's a start!
Wed Oct 11, 2017, 06:10 AM
Oct 2017

Of course I agree with you on Trump, I am a member of DU after all.

However, you yourself are now evidence that we can discuss Columbus Day AND Trump at the same time. See, we can try to solve more than one problem at a time! In fact, you wasted a lot more time than necessary fighting this basic fact about multi-tasking.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
182. TrumpRussia, TrumpRacism are both far more important. We have limited resources.
Wed Oct 11, 2017, 11:33 PM
Oct 2017

Only so much can be discussed in one day.
Focus on the racism in the white house, the propaganda in our media, and the GOP donor billionaires who want to hurt Americans for tax cuts. Let's talk about Columbus in 2021.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
183. That's where you are wrong.
Thu Oct 12, 2017, 05:52 AM
Oct 2017

There will always be more pressing matters, even in 2021. Once again, I ask you to clarify whether you think we should not discuss Confederate statues until 2021 or later.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
184. TrumpRussia and GOP racism now.
Sat Oct 14, 2017, 09:45 PM
Oct 2017

And billionaires running the GOP
And right wing propaganda: Fox, Limbaugh, Breitbard
And the need for major campaign finance reform - dark money etc


If we solve these issues others will follow.

Orrex

(63,172 posts)
4. Oh, come on.
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:02 AM
Oct 2017

Don't genocidal criminals deserve their own statues, city names, and national holidays? How else are we to commemorate the near-extinction of indigenous peoples?

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
33. Russia propaganda TV in America - RT - has employees fleeing
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:42 PM
Oct 2017

RT - formerly Russia Today - the Russian propaganda outfit in the US, has employees fleeing.

They are worried about espionage prosecution and Mueller.

This is one part of the Russian disinformation campaign in the US.





jcmaine72

(1,773 posts)
79. No. You missed my point.
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:44 PM
Oct 2017

I was being sarcastic. Sorry, I'm still a little shell shocked over literally being silenced earlier for expressing an opinion about Columbus that I know from my own experiencs are commonly held amongst fellow progressives and liberals. My mistake, I suppose, was assuming there were any like-minded people here in (of all places) a Democratic forum.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029685765

Orrex

(63,172 posts)
102. Well, if it makes you feel any better, we're on the same page about that.
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 10:04 PM
Oct 2017

Strike it from the record and replace it with National Indigenous People's Day. Point me to the petition, and I'll sign it.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
9. The 1860s were a different time too.
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:47 AM
Oct 2017

And yet we still don't want Confederate flags and monuments hanging around.

Columbus committed massacres and took slaves back to Spain. Columbus gave a woman to one of his traveling companions. I'm reasonably sure we can find a better Italian to help us honor Italian-American Day.

 

Trust Buster

(7,299 posts)
15. We committed massacres in Korea and Viet Nam in the 1950s and the 1960s based on the
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:02 AM
Oct 2017

Belief that the Asian people were inferior beings. They foolishly thought that the U.S. military merely had to show up. Seeking to right the wrongs from 500 years ago is a fools errand IMO.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
61. More than a "fool's errand," most of this is a wired-in hostility toward one's own
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:57 PM
Oct 2017

among the radical left. They're very like the far right in so many ways, with one striking difference being that the far right is aggressively hostile toward everyone who is different, while the far left is aggressively hostile toward whatever they themselves feel identified with.

Theyr'e both rigidly locked into their irrational reactions, and I OD'd on their constant, profoundly silly, and potentially profoundly destructive attacks in the 1960s.

 

Trust Buster

(7,299 posts)
138. Westmoreland was a general in the military fighting in a foreign war 50 years ago.
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 08:48 AM
Oct 2017

Columbus was an explorer credited with discovering America 500 years ago. I find your apples to oranges comparison to be quite myopic.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
139. I'm interested to find out what you think "myopic" means.
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 09:19 AM
Oct 2017

You are the one who brought up Korea and Nam. Regardless of how we fought those wars, we do not have any national holidays honoring the men who directed them. In the sense of your argument, I am merely seeking parity for Columbus.

Your original post was that the world was different in 1492, and I agree. That fact doesn't mean we need to have a national holiday to honor the guy who took slaves and massacred natives in the West Indies.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
155. I am not trying to change that, so much as trying to make sure we are not honoring the man
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 06:01 AM
Oct 2017

with a national holiday, since he was such a dirtbag.

As for the history of the event, that will always be available in books. I don't think we should have a holiday named after Columbus.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
150. History is now
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 07:40 PM
Oct 2017

This country was founded on dehumanizing people of color, and not much has changed. Nor will it as long as it is not considered to have been a problem until now.
Celebrating Columbus and confederate soldiers is to justify and celebrate the continuation of that tradition. Dressing it up with "it was a different time" ignores that human trafficking, slavery through mass incarceration, and glaring racial disparities are still a part of US culture.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
8. No one here is defending Columbus
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:46 AM
Oct 2017

Not even those who think Columbus Day is an acceptable holiday (like me and President Obama).

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
10. If you are not interested in changing the name, then you are implicitly defending the man.
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:48 AM
Oct 2017

And I find it odd that you invoke Obama, as if he was a.) never wrong, and b.) wasn't afraid of offending part of his constituency.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
12. That's your formulation
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:51 AM
Oct 2017

If you think everyone who wants Columbus, OH to continue to exist with that name, for instance, is "implicitly defending the man" then that is your own issue.

I invoke Obama because he is a similarly reasonable Democrat and generally admirable guy.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
13. You agree that naming a town after a man confers an honor,
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:57 AM
Oct 2017

and you agree that town names can be changed. This implies that if the people of that town do not want to change the name, then they want to continue the honor (or they have not thought about the issue at all).

Obama had political constraints that we mortals do not have. Obama had to be careful not to raise issues that would lose voters for the Dems.

110. How far do you want to take this? Columbia is the poetic name for America - you think
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 12:52 AM
Oct 2017

everything with Columbia in its name should be renamed? The District of Columbia? Columbia Pictures? Columbia University? Columbia, South Carolina? CBS is an acronym for Columbia Broadcasting System - the network's official name until 1974.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
120. How far do you? We are removing Confederate monuments,
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:21 AM
Oct 2017

why not remove Columbus monuments. Also, no need to have a national holiday for that a slaver like Columbus.

jcmaine72

(1,773 posts)
77. Really? Did you happen to see the thread I created on this topic?
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:36 PM
Oct 2017
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029685765

I probably would've received a better reception at Breitbart for daring to point out the obvious about his legacy.

Bradshaw3

(7,488 posts)
106. Sure about that?
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 11:14 PM
Oct 2017

Is saying the English and French were worse a defense of Columbus and Spanish atrocities? Are making equivalencies with other subjugation of peoples a defense? Seems like it to me.

comradebillyboy

(10,128 posts)
40. The absurdity of applying 21st century value to the 15th century
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 02:03 PM
Oct 2017

is well illustrated in this thread. Times change. In his time Columbus was a hero in Spain. Hell he was a hero in the US until maybe 20 years ago. Colonialism was perfectly acceptable until the mid 20th century. History needs to examined in the context of what was happening at the time. By modern standards the Romans were genocidal monsters, but every city in the Rhine valley has a statue celebrating the Romans bringing grapes and civilization to Germany.

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
45. Exactly yet sadly the use has become fashionable and expected.
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 02:37 PM
Oct 2017

To point out the absurdity (an excellent description of this behavior) results in condemnation and accusations of bigotry. We see it everywhere from the media to academia where colleges and universities would rather scrap curriculum than have honest discussion about academic rigor, intellectual honest and the importance of context when evaluating historical events and individuals.

nocalflea

(1,387 posts)
57. It's so much easier to jerk one's knee than it is to think.
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:47 PM
Oct 2017

Screw historical context, it's all about feelings and who did what to whom.

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
67. Ahh yes, feelings.
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 04:12 PM
Oct 2017

Feelings. The root of all confirmation bias. Why bother with reason and objective analysis when one can just state something is true because it feels true.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
121. Christopher Columbus was a slaver,
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:23 AM
Oct 2017

We have been busy in this country removing memorials to slavers, why do we keep the ones to Columbus?

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
97. How Dare You!
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:33 PM
Oct 2017

Interject logic into this absurd argument. Colonization ain't nice. We all reap the rewards. The native American way of life was lost and America was created. Shall the Irish seek to destroy the Coliseum in Rome because they conquered the Gauls?

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
122. The Confederates held slaves, and we are removing their monuments.
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:25 AM
Oct 2017

Why do we have a holiday for a slaver like Columbus?

Polly Hennessey

(6,787 posts)
18. We committed atrocities
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:25 AM
Oct 2017

in the American West. Oh, heck, let's all leave and go back to Europe. I hear Cornwall is a nice place to live. I mean, after all, we are responsible for our ancestors conduct. No more Columbus, Ohio, or America. Try to remember for whom America was named.

Polly Hennessey

(6,787 posts)
63. Thanks, dyedinthewoolliberal.
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 04:00 PM
Oct 2017

I couldn't remember how to spell his name. Every Columbus Day we hear the same anguished cry about Christopher. Name me a period in history where humans did not enslave, commit atrocities, or demonize another group of humans. If it can be found, I recommend we focus our attention on that time period for certainly it was perfect. We can name all our states, county's, and even our country after that historical perfection.

Polly Hennessey

(6,787 posts)
64. Thanks, dyedinthewoolliberal.
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 04:03 PM
Oct 2017

I couldn't remember how to spell his name. Every Columbus Day we hear the same anguished cry about Christopher. Name me a period in history where humans did not enslave, commit atrocities, or demonize another group of humans. If it can be found, I recommend we focus our attention on that time period for certainly it was perfect. We can name all our states, county's, and even our country after that historical perfection.

standingtall

(2,785 posts)
19. No one cares about Columbus day
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 11:22 AM
Oct 2017

except for those who are playing right into the hands of the right wing who claim liberals and progressives are getting extreme with this kind of stuff. Was over 500 years ago and he never even set foot on North America only the Bahamas.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
29. Echoing talking points of Russia and the GOP
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:32 PM
Oct 2017

Wanted to add that.

Why do we think Columbus is suddenly such a hot topic?

standingtall

(2,785 posts)
47. Which nobody remembers until they are reminded
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:00 PM
Oct 2017

unless they get a day off of work for it which most people don't.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
84. It helps divide Dems. So GOP and Russia like it when we argue
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:55 PM
Oct 2017

about things like this.

What about the racism in the white house? The racism of the VP? The healthcare the GOP is trying to take away from Americans?

Those are the issues the GOP and Russia DON'T want us to focus on. Because they know they will lose if Democrats mobilize. They will win if Democrats argue amongst themselves.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
87. Well, then can we argue about..... beer brands?
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:04 PM
Oct 2017

Like- Närke Kaggen Stormaktsporter Börb’n å Hallon vs Cuvée Armand & Gaston

Tamaki Gold/Signature vs Nishiki sushi rice?


Frederic Rzewski vs Arvo Part?

octoberlib

(14,971 posts)
88. Columbus doesn't divide Dems. Everybody knows he was a racist POS, as were a lot of
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:05 PM
Oct 2017

people of that time. And DU has these OPs every year around Columbus Day. Nothing to see here.

Dyedinthewoolliberal

(15,546 posts)
21. I'm not a Columbus defender and am glad we (as a nation) are moving away from Columbus Day.
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 11:55 AM
Oct 2017

We do have to be careful of judging someone from the 15th century with 21st century mores and values. The historical facts are slavery was a common practice among many cultures and societies around the world at that time. There was no other point of view that said 'wait a minute, there may be people already living there who won't welcome your arrival.'

Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

yuiyoshida

(41,818 posts)
26. Its a good thing Columbus Didn't come to Hawaii
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:28 PM
Oct 2017

My ancestors would have treated him like they treated Captain Cook, ...**



On February 14, 1779, Captain James Cook, the great English explorer and navigator, is murdered by natives of Hawaii during his third visit to the Pacific island group.

In 1768, Cook, a surveyor in the Royal Navy, was commissioned a lieutenant in command of the HMS Endeavor and led an expedition that took scientists to Tahiti to chart the course of the planet Venus. In 1771, he returned to England, having explored the coast of New Zealand and Australia and circumnavigated the globe. Beginning in 1772, he commanded a major mission to the South Pacific and during the next three years explored the Antarctic region, charted the New Hebrides, and discovered New Caledonia. In 1776, Cook sailed from England again as commander of the HMS Resolution and Discovery, and in January 1778 he made his first visit to the Hawaiian Islands. He may have been the first European to ever visit the island group, which he named the Sandwich Islands in honor of one of his patrons, John Montague, the Earl of Sandwich.

Cook and his crew were welcomed by the Hawaiians, who were fascinated by the Europeans’ ships and their use of iron. Cook provisioned his ships by trading the metal, and his sailors traded iron nails for sex. The ships then made a brief stop at Ni’ihau and headed north to look for the western end of a northwest passage from the North Atlantic to the Pacific. Almost one year later, Cook’s two ships returned to the Hawaiian Islands and found a safe harbor in Hawaii’s Kealakekua Bay.

It is suspected that the Hawaiians attached religious significance to the first stay of the Europeans on their islands. In Cook’s second visit, there was no question of this phenomenon. Kealakekua Bay was considered the sacred harbor of Lono, the fertility god of the Hawaiians, and at the time of Cook’s arrival the locals were engaged in a festival dedicated to Lono. Cook and his compatriots were welcomed as gods and for the next month exploited the Hawaiians’ good will. After one of the crewmen died, exposing the Europeans as mere mortals, relations became strained. On February 4, 1779, the British ships sailed from Kealakekua Bay, but rough seas damaged the foremast of the Resolution, and after only a week at sea the expedition was forced to return to Hawaii.

The Hawaiians greeted Cook and his men by hurling rocks; they then stole a small cutter vessel from the Discovery. Negotiations with King Kalaniopuu for the return of the cutter collapsed after a lesser Hawaiian chief was shot to death and a mob of Hawaiians descended on Cook’s party. The captain and his men fired on the angry Hawaiians, but they were soon overwhelmed, and only a few managed to escape to the safety of the Resolution. Captain Cook himself was killed by the mob. A few days later, the Englishmen retaliated by firing their cannons and muskets at the shore, killing some 30 Hawaiians. The Resolution and Discovery eventually returned to England.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/captain-cook-killed-in-hawaii

Alea

(706 posts)
27. Oh look, another thing to be outraged over
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:29 PM
Oct 2017

I doubt there's a Human DNA strand on the planet that can't be traced back to ancestors that did something shitty to other people.

Alea

(706 posts)
56. Good, because I don't have any connection to columbus
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:46 PM
Oct 2017

and I don't care about something that happened 500 years ago. I do care that while we are tearing down statues, our political opponents are winning elections.

gabeana

(3,166 posts)
100. Yeah you do
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:40 PM
Oct 2017

if you live in the western hemisphere, you walk on the footsteps of the first people who developed this land

Bettie

(16,072 posts)
92. Exactly true
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:56 PM
Oct 2017

and morality has changed over the centuries. Culture has changed, mostly for the better.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
28. Russians want to divide America and democrats
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:31 PM
Oct 2017

It's good for Russia when Democrats are arguing about things like... Christopher Columbus.


What do you think about Amerigo Vespucci?

 

YOHABLO

(7,358 posts)
70. Russia has nothing to do with this. It's about the false narrative they've been brain washing
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 04:53 PM
Oct 2017

students with for years and years. We need to get real fucking honest.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
85. Russia is on social media now backing this talking point.
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:58 PM
Oct 2017

See Hamilton Russian disinformaiton dashboard.

Also see articles like this from Russian propaganda news outlets:

https://www.rt.com/usa/403113-columbus-statue-vandalized-central-park/



So do you still think that Dems arguing about this has nothing to do with Russia? GOP and Russia win when we argue.

Focus on racism in the white house, in the VP, on healthcare, on 2018. Unify and work.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
30. Yesterday: anti-Putin protests all over Russia
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 01:34 PM
Oct 2017




Seems like Putin is weak and that's why he's lashing out at the west.


We just need to resist division, focus on the attacks on our democracy and move forward.

yuiyoshida

(41,818 posts)
42. one in San Francisco
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 02:13 PM
Oct 2017

not sure where it is, probably near Columbus Blvd, which heads straight from Fisherman's Wharf to the TransAmerica Pyramid Building...





its NEAR COIT TOWER...

sarah FAILIN

(2,857 posts)
44. Eve ate an apple. Why are you not having a fit over that?
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 02:20 PM
Oct 2017

We don't care about Columbus and this distraction because we have our hands full as it is. This is really the first time I've heard of this "outrage" and it seems pretty convenient as a distraction. Get back to us all after we have the Russian crap settled and Trump is in jail. We only have X amount of outrage to spare right now.

ProudLib72

(17,984 posts)
48. Persephone ate six pomegranate seeds
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:06 PM
Oct 2017

I'm pissed about that. It means I have to buy snow tires. It means I have to shovel snow. And she was warned not to eat anything while in Hades. I mean, it's not like she didn't know any better.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
123. Why are we removing statues of Robert E. Lee?
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:27 AM
Oct 2017

If this is the first time you have heard about what Columbus did, I believe you are not very well informed.

sarah FAILIN

(2,857 posts)
151. I believe you have very few posts
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 07:49 PM
Oct 2017

Just like these other pot stirrers

I have other things I'm concerned with re: living people. Columbus and Lee have both been dead many years

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
159. Oh, oh I get it. My post count is lower than yours so I need not have an opinion!
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 06:09 AM
Oct 2017

On the other hand, you only have 1400 posts, so perhaps someone with more might say the same thing about you!

Heck, in a few months I might have more posts than you, then whose opinion will really count?

Next time, try making an argument instead of an ad hominem...

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
166. Are you interested in making an argument?
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 07:31 AM
Oct 2017

I am not interested in post-counts. I am interested in re-naming Columbus Day. I have laid out my arguments, and I am willing to discuss them if you wish.

If you wish to talk about how I have fewer posts than you or someone else, I think you should start a new thread since mine is about Columbus Day.

sarah FAILIN

(2,857 posts)
179. You may have more posts than me by next week at the rate you're going
Wed Oct 11, 2017, 01:02 AM
Oct 2017

The difference is I am not trying to distract from the really important things the way you and others are. Funny thing, you all have low post counts....

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
180. Once again, how does that mean my opinion matters less?
Wed Oct 11, 2017, 06:07 AM
Oct 2017

Furthermore, DU was abuzz lately with posts about Confederate statues, would you also tell all of those commenters (me included) that they are wasting everyone's time and that there are more important issues than mere statues?

Sneederbunk

(14,278 posts)
52. The logical conclusion for opponents would be
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:27 PM
Oct 2017

to dispense with the holiday all together. Too many people want a day off. Even the opponents.

demosincebirth

(12,529 posts)
53. If it hadn't been Columbus, then who? Henry the Navigator? Captain Cook? And if so, would any
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 03:28 PM
Oct 2017

have done things any differently? We don't seem to remember the era in which these discoveries were made.

Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

jcmaine72

(1,773 posts)
74. Careful or you'll be accused of being a Russian spy for speaking the truth about Columbus
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:21 PM
Oct 2017

I got two hides, personally attacked, and then accused of being a Russian spy for daring to speak the truth about Columbus on this board. I'm still at a loss.

 

beachbum bob

(10,437 posts)
78. applying moral standards 500 years later is pretty disingenuous
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:40 PM
Oct 2017

you can condemn any person or any entity using such application. Greater things to take action on today if you care about NOW

Bradshaw3

(7,488 posts)
105. I don't know about many
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 11:08 PM
Oct 2017

but there are certainly a determined emotional few. It's strange but it certainly hits a nerve for some, whether it's religious, ethnic reasons I'm not sure.

 

WinkyDink

(51,311 posts)
81. 1. Dresden. Hiroshima/Nagasaki. Vietnam. Iraq. 2. So basically you're saying that anywhere one human
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:50 PM
Oct 2017

was living, was never truly "discovered" by a later explorer? Time to re-write a lot of books!

milestogo

(16,829 posts)
82. I always find it kind of bizarre to see historical figures judged by values that were not held
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 07:52 PM
Oct 2017

at the time that they lived.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
126. Confederates fought for slavery and we want to get rid of their statues,
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:30 AM
Oct 2017

Columbus actually took slaves, and we want to have a holiday for him?

I would call that bizarre, aye.

milestogo

(16,829 posts)
130. There are many great historical figures who had slaves
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:55 AM
Oct 2017

and all of them believed women are inferior to men. We aren't celebrating the values that were later rejected. We are celebrating their achievements.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
149. 4th of July
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 07:28 PM
Oct 2017

Almost all the signers of the declaration of Independence were slave owners , 41 of 56.


Game. Set. Match.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
169. Wait, there was a signor named "President"?
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 10:37 AM
Oct 2017

As you mention, the day is mostly called "President's Day". Thus, it is no longer really an honoring of Washington, although it was initially.

That said, "President's Day" is actually a good illustration of my point, which is that "Columbus Day" could easily be re-named in order to revoke the honoring of the man, and instead honor something more positive.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
170. Nope. Go to OPM and look up Federal Holidays
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 10:48 AM
Oct 2017

It's Washington's Birthday.

And your claims have been all over the place. You never once said it should remain the holiday for Italian Americans, but have a name change (which I could support). You want to change the entire meaning of the day, which is wrong to do.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
173. Are you kidding me?
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 11:00 AM
Oct 2017

"You never once said it should remain the holiday for Italian Americans, but have a name change (which I could support)."

I also never once said it shouldn't. In fact, it looks like you and me support the exact same solution: re-naming Columbus Day.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
174. Well, I for one would rather find a less controversial name
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 11:30 AM
Oct 2017

But in no way, shape, or form would I want this day changed. It is sad here on DU the people that think the day is for Columbus. Of course it's not. It was made a national holiday to win the Italian vote back east because they generally treated us like shit here.

The largest mass lynching in America victims were not black, they were Sicilian. Teddy Roosevelt called it a good start. We were interred (even Joe DiMaggio's parents were made an example of) They forbade us to speak our language. Rockefeller indentured us as did the railroads. The Irish would not let us in our own Churches and we had to worship in the basement. They called us greasers, dago, wop, and garlic eaters

Even here on DU anyone with an Italian surname is called mafia. They sneered Scalia calling him "Fat Tony", an obvious mafia reference. A well known posters here referred to Scaramucci as a "goomba". All that shit is allowed here.

Why is it on this country that a race of people who ruled the world TWICE, brought us our form of government, the Renaissance, great scientists, and an cuisine that is one of the top in the world (most of french cooking was taken from the piemontese), but all we can do here, on DU is make mafia jokes. It's allowed.

Anyway, It's our day, and it should remain our day. Perhaps if your OP stated "Italian Americans need a better mascot for their day than Columbus", I would support it.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
175. I am in agreement with you.
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 11:33 AM
Oct 2017

"Perhaps if your OP stated "Italian Americans need a better mascot for their day than Columbus", I would support it."

I didn't think this needed to be stated explicitly. I thought it was obvious that a slaver like Columbus would make a bad mascot for any group of people.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
177. To be fair, it is easy to assume considering it is named after the guy.
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 01:08 PM
Oct 2017

Also, my memory isn't so hot, but I think in grade school (in the 80s and 90s) the focus was on Columbus (and the "discovery&quot and not on a general Italian-American theme.

I did like the idea of an "Indigenous People's Day", but an "Italian-American Day" works as well and is at least consistent with how the holiday was originally created.

GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
90. I have yet to see anyone Defend CC on DU.
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:49 PM
Oct 2017

But I seen many that think it much fuss about nonsense that cannot help The Democratic Party. I fall into that camp myself.

I have also read others post that question the motives in OPs such as this.

Have a nice evening.

cbdo2007

(9,213 posts)
91. I'm not defending but I did stop giving any fucks around 1572
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 08:52 PM
Oct 2017

About what Columbus did or did not do.

Get over it people.

Ferrets are Cool

(21,103 posts)
93. It makes no difference what he "discovered" ... what does matter is what he did and was...
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:15 PM
Oct 2017

He was a mass murderer and a pedophile. This nation should be ashamed of "honoring" him with a national holiday.

https://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2014/10/truth-about-columbus-day-why-are-we-celebrating

Just a snippet of the truth:

Over time, Columbus’ real actions in the Americas have been replaced by a warm-and-fuzzy coloring book story of a bold and brave explorer who set out to discover a new world. But in reality, as we have learned from writings of Christopher Columbus’ own men, the “bold explorer” raped, pillaged, enslaved, and slaughtered people just to get rich.

One of Columbus’ crewmen, Miguel Cuneo, wrote about the scene when Columbus arrived in Hispaniola for the second time, and thousands of Tainos, or what were referred to as Indians, came out to greet Columbus' ships. Cuneo wrote, “When our caravels...were to leave for Spain, we gathered...one thousand six hundred male and female persons of those Indians...For those who remained, we let it be known [to the Spaniards] in the vicinity that anyone who wanted to take some of them could do so, to the amount desired, which was done.”

Cuneo also wrote that he took his own sex slave, a beautiful young girl, who in his own words, “resisted with all her strength,” leaving him with no choice but to, “thrash her mercilessly and rape her.”

Columbus eventually started up a global child-sex-slave trade, shipping off Indians to all corners of the globe. He even bragged about it to a friend in a letter written in 1500, saying that, “A hundred castellanoes (a Spanish coin) are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten (years old) are now in demand.”

Hekate

(90,556 posts)
94. I'm not "defending Columbus." I'm defending our right to not have really stupid fights ...
Sun Oct 8, 2017, 09:22 PM
Oct 2017

...that serve no one.

Hekate

(90,556 posts)
146. That's most of human history and all cultures at one time or another. There is no land...
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 03:24 PM
Oct 2017

...that has not been soaked in blood at some point. Not anywhere.

At least we try in America -- and we do progress, however slowly. Women, who led the Abolitionist movement to free the slaves, can now vote too. You can't just go down to the public square or the docks and pick up a few slaves. We are a deeply flawed country -- but we keep moving forward.

My background is History, and ultimately Mythology/ Depth Psychology. I remember more than one person in my classes pondering why anyone with a religion as rich and beautiful as Hinduism would even consider converting to Christianity. Just off the top of my head I said: the caste system and bride burnings. They were shocked -- they had never considered the effects of the caste system and they thought I was making it up about bride burnings, which remain a persistent and pervasive problem in India. China a century ago? Footbinding. Africa today? Female genital mutilation. And just to forestall any accusations on that front, I am not even Christian any more, so that is not the basis of my argument.

I am a lifelong Democrat, and as women a century ago would have put it, I believe that "progress and moral suasion" will effect the changes we seek.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
158. I agree about history,
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 06:06 AM
Oct 2017

but why do we need a national holiday named after a guy who actually stole people from America and made them slaves? You have not explained that yet.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
128. My office is closed, and our clients are also closed.
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 06:32 AM
Oct 2017

But the problem is not with a day off, as the holiday could easily be re-named.

nini

(16,672 posts)
109. These days i don't have any outrage left for this annual battle
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 12:34 AM
Oct 2017

However, tis the season. Thanksgiving/pilgrims and the war on Christmas are coming too. Wooo hhoooooo.

 

WinkyDink

(51,311 posts)
114. If we're going to start being scrupulously honest about our history, let's work backwards
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 02:25 AM
Oct 2017

from today.

Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

Response to ExciteBike66 (Original post)

bluepen

(620 posts)
134. Finally someone is tackling this urgent issue.
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 07:27 AM
Oct 2017


Look around. There’s plenty of things (that actually matter) to be outraged about.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
157. This is a right-wing argument that you are making.
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 06:05 AM
Oct 2017

We can attempt to solve more than one problem at a time in this country.

In your opinion, which problem should we concentrate upon while allowing all other problems to go unsolved?

bluepen

(620 posts)
162. I figured you wouldnt address what I just said.
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 07:00 AM
Oct 2017

But I wasn’t counting on a straw-man being thrown in at the end. Guess I was giving you too much credit.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
163. Your point was that there are other more important issues, and I agree.
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 07:05 AM
Oct 2017

That said, you still have not explained why we must ignore every issue but the "most important" until that "most important" issue is solved.

Or, do you agree with me that we can focus on more than one issue at a time?

Or are you arguing something else? Please clarify.

bluepen

(620 posts)
164. So we agree, at least on the first point you noted. Sort of.
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 07:18 AM
Oct 2017

Not sure what’s unclear in my original post. Maybe read the words carefully, think for more than 1.5 seconds before making a simplistic knee-jerk response, and you won’t have to have the point spoon-fed to you.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
167. You are trying to be rude.
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 07:35 AM
Oct 2017

As human beings, we here at DU are capable of trying to solve more than one problem at a time. For instance, there are posts on DU about Trump AND about guns! Those are two separate issues that both need solving, and yet somehow we are able to think about both.

If you have an issue that you think is more important than Columbus Day, I suggest you make a thread about it. Once you do that, perhaps I will comment on your thread. I promise that I will not give a useless comment like "there are more important issues than the one you are writing about".

If you have no constructive comments about Columbus Day, then I suggest you merely stop responding to Columbus Day posts.

bluepen

(620 posts)
171. We agree again. Trump is a problem; guns are a problem.
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 10:51 AM
Oct 2017

Columbus Day is not. It’s a marginally (at BEST) symbolic topic that has zero substantive impact on what’s happening in our country and in the world. Just something for people to complain about. That’s my view, and I’ll express it without the slightest concern as to who approves because yes, I’ll point it out when people are willingly distracted from the real issues, such as the ones you mentioned.

That’s all.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
172. You might as well criticize DU posters for commenting about sports.
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 10:58 AM
Oct 2017

Symbolism is important, though we agree that there are more important, concrete issues to be solved.

Once again, we can certainly work to solve multiple problems at the same time. At the same time, we can post on DU about sports, cooking, gardening, the weather, etc., all without prejudice to the more urgent work we wish to accomplish.

lunasun

(21,646 posts)
135. Ha! looks like the biggest defense against your OP is to call you a Russian and the best argument
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 08:16 AM
Oct 2017

is they are old and dont care to evolve ethically

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
142. Every holiday, the righteous and pure tell me why not to engage or solemnize for my own good.
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 09:59 AM
Oct 2017

Every holiday, the righteous and pure tell me why not to engage or solemnize for my own good, never once realizing what is actually being engaged and solemnized on the individual level, but rather projecting their own abstract principles onto an imaginary whole.

ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
161. You are speaking of your individual experience of the holiday, which is fine.
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 06:12 AM
Oct 2017

My point was about the honor conferred by a national holiday, not any individual reverence.

You are free to revere the slaver Columbus, but please don't insist on having a national holiday in his honor. He was a dirtbag.

Willie Pep

(841 posts)
147. So should we eliminate Independence Day?
Mon Oct 9, 2017, 03:52 PM
Oct 2017

One of the major factors behind seeking independence from Great Britain was the desire to expand into Native American territory to the west. The Declaration of Independence mentions "Indian Savages" directly.

He [the present King of Great Britain] has excited domestic Insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the Inhabitants of our Frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known Rule of Warfare, is an undistinguished Destruction, of all Ages, Sexes and Conditions.


This doesn't even touch on Thanksgiving or Washington's Birthday and the potential controversies around Native American policy and slavery that those holidays imply.

I think we can celebrate holidays and understand the often harsh realities of history at the same time.



ExciteBike66

(2,297 posts)
160. Where did the bad "Independence" touch you?
Tue Oct 10, 2017, 06:11 AM
Oct 2017

"Independence" is a concept, morally neutral.

"Columbus" was a man who took slaves from their homes and sent them to Spain.

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