My heartfelt apology to Columbus and the defenders of his magnificent legacy here.

[jcmaine72]

I just wanted to apologize for creating disunity in my earlier thread by smearing the good name of Christopher Columbus with historically provable but obviously unfashionable opinions regarding his legacy of Native American genocide, slavery, land theft, and religious intolerance.

I would especially like thank those who also pointed out to me that only a Russian spy would dare attempt to do anything as divisive as suggest on a Democratic forum that people not embrace or honor such a legacy with statues, place names, or holidays.

The important thing is that we, as Democrats, remain united at all costs. I see that now. My hope that we might actually have united around principles that are diametrically opposed to everything Columbus and his legacy stands for was obviously ill-conceived and naively Putinistic. If it's any consolation to the admirers of this, um......great.....man, I've already garnered three hides. Consider me officially chastened.

[Trust Buster]

1. The far Right wants to return America back to a day of white European dominance.

That has no chance of happening. The far Left wants Americans of white European heritage to disavow every vestige of historical points in time that involved white Europeans. That, too, will never happen, your snark aside.

[jcmaine72]

4. Disavow our history? That is contrary to my intentions. I want us to own up to it.

I want us (for once) to acknowledge our own history honestly and not festoon its horrible reality with romanticized, dishonest pap about great explorers, brave pioneers, and beacons of hope. Only then can we move forward as a united people without feeling somehow obligated to defend, justify, or obscure with sentimental fluff the brutal legacy of people like Columbus.

[leftofcool]

9. That is never going to happen

I am not surprised some of your posts got hidden. People have had posts hidden here for talking about Black people.

[Trust Buster]

23. I said disavow historical points in time and not history.

I live in Ohio. Are we going to have to change the name for the city of Columbus to please you ?

[Lonestarblue]

24. 100% agree!

I spent my career in the educational arena, and the whitewashing of our history by state education agencies and textbook publishers currying favor with them is atrocious. Columbus NEVER set foot in these United States of America. This land was not discovered, it was invaded by Europeans, who essentially took it for their own. We also now have another whitewashing of history as textbook publishers, at the instigation of religious and right-wing conservatives, try to portray slavery as not so bad and slaves as immigrants who came here to work and for a better life. The parts of our history books dealing with controversial actions by the U.S. are little better than boring fiction. And you will never see mention of actions the U.S. has taken to destabilize or even overthrow other governments (like Iran in the 1950s). Our citizens cannot learn from a dishonest history and thus cannot make better decisions moving forward.

[hunter]

39. The same thing happens in science texts, by the influence of the same groups.

Evolution, the fundamental process of biology, is reduced to a single chapter which can easily be neglected.

[AllyCat]

62. I agree with you. We LOVE to talk about our white past

Hide our horrible treatment of blacks, Japanese, gays, First Nation peoples, women, basically everyone not white, European men. But I can see all the folks rushing to defend it and am sadly not surprised.

[MicaelS]

71. Oh please.

The history of humanity is a history of war, conquest, murder, looting and enslavement. Europeans and Americans are not some special evil group that has done all the evil in the world.

[whathehell]

38. Good point..

Like most situations, it's not "all or nothing'.

[angrychair]

47. With all due respect

The term “white European heritage” sounds a lot like white nationalist dog whistle to me.

On that note, a rampaging rapist and murderer who died humiliated, penniless and alone is not the heritage I take any pride in.

Columbus Day is one of many forced holidays that were created out of thin air. The “history” written up about Columbus to appeal to Americans was by fiction writer Washington Irving, that took significant liberties with the truth.

[Trust Buster]

55. I live in Ohio. Do we need to change the name of our Capitol to satiate your self righteousness ?

[angrychair]

66. That isnt for me to decide

That is for the voters of Ohio to decide.

Certainly you would agree that certain people, like the treasonous leaders of the confederacy, do not merit veneration through statues and a school naming.
This is more about where a person lands, in the big picture, in their place in history. Columbus’ place in history is questionable and he was a horrible person, even by medieval standards, the history written by Irving is a lie. He was not even Italian, he was a Genoese and more closely associated with Spain than Italy at that time in history.
I’m choosing to let the “satiate your self righteousness” jab slide. I have no emotion in this, only an honest assessment of history.

[MyNameGoesHere]

85. I think it perfectly appropriate

Your capitol city had that name. You guys should represent and keep it. Even if it's spelled wrong.

[greeny2323]

2. Drama, much?

The funniest part of this is that the vast majority of Americans don't care about Columbus and barely pay any attention. For most it's just a day off or a day of lighter traffic.

[leftofcool]

6. I assume you don't hang out with Native Americans

I can assure you than we very much care and to us, it isn't just a "day of lighter traffic."

[Duppers]

81. I loved the creative irony.

Enjoy beating a downed horse much?

Some of us do pay attention. A simple holiday name change is no BFD. So, what's so hard and controversial about giving credit where credit is due?

Did you not see this thread on the Greatest page today?
"Happy Indigenous Peoples' Day from Minneapolis!"
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029690319

[MyNameGoesHere]

86. I got an easy day

fuck those that paid for it with their life and souls? You're very much right, that is the america we live in now. Please go back to sleep.

[gordianot]

3. A few years back I discussed Columbus and his veneration by a Christian sect with a member....

Of that sect. They have their own interpretation of history that ignores the obvious bringing back an endorsement from events that should be denounced. Who says medieval apologist for horrors are not still with us and thriving? They still believe the old lies.

[johnp3907]

5. And the same goes for O.J.!

He was a great football player! A legend! And that's all anyone ever has to ssy about him!

[ProfessorGAC]

7. Oh Brother!

The other post was way over the top. Now this one is just whiny.

[jcmaine72]

10. Yes, because it's so over the top to suggest that one not embrace or celebrate a legacy that

includes genocide, slavery, land theft and religious intolerance.

[lark]

19. Really kind of surprised about the negative reaction.

I'd think that lefties wouldn't be all praise to Columbus, because as you point out, he was a killer and invader. Even as a child, being raised by religious conservatives, I always argued in school and at home, that the Indians got a raw deal and that what Columbus did to the Indians was terrible.

[ProfessorGAC]

53. You Were Corrected In The Other Thread. . .

. . .about your use of the term genocide as it pertains to this person. And you ignore the advice, even though the advice is facutally correct.

Keep it up, quixote.

[Brainstormy]

25. NOT over the top.

Just the truth.

[ProfessorGAC]

54. No It's Not

The poster keeps using the term "genocide" apropos Columbus. It's preposterous hyperbole.

[stranger81]

60. Not hyperbole -- you could ask the Taino, if there were any

to ask:

http://gsp.yale.edu/case-studies/colonial-genocides-project/hispaniola

[moriah]

33. I admit the logistics of renaming large cities would be problematic.

But in theory, we really shouldn't be venerating asshats.

At the same time, I doubt James Marion Sims will ever posthumously lose the honors he was given as the "father of modern gynecology" because he chose to experiment on unanesthetized slave women while trying to devise his speculum and questionable operation techniques. The American Medical Association should apologize for ever having him as their President.

They won't, or note his atrocities in a new marker on the marker at his birthplace, but they should. Until they do it's akin to having a statue of Sigmund Rascher (his being the only "research" people ever have tried to put to a practical use) outside ice-fishing stores praising him for "his service to hypothermia sufferers, Nazi and Jew alike." They should. But they probably won't.

Christopher Columbus was not the first European to set foot in the "New-to-Them World", and like most with the colonization mindset, set out with the assumption of cultural superiority. We should continue to teach that these people THOUGHT God had communicated a "manifest destiny" through this "opportunity" to save souls, but in fact succumbed to opportunism, which is exactly what happened with Columbus.

What was more over the top to me than the original OP, however, was some of the stuff said in the attempt to shut down the argument.

Calling out Columbus for writing back to Their Catholic Majesties after accepting the mandate to spread Christianity wherever he landed that the people he found were ripe for enslavement, and once captured and broken cooperated, simply does not constitute insult to the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free". And in my opinion, people whose ancestors immigrated willingly have a *duty* to call out the evils done so that we could have the life we enjoy here -- and the mindset that allowed it to happen.

So that we maybe will someday stop the whole cultural superiority nonsense. We still haven't, obviously.

[elias7]

51. Well, St Petersburg became Petrograd, then Leningrad

The Cleveland Browns became the Baltimore Ravens..

US history is so short. Names change as history gains new perspectives.

What really is there to glorify about Columbus, other than the outmoded notion that he discovered America? The holiday is a great holiday in a, "he discovered America, yay!!!" way, but it's based on a series of fallacies starting with the notion that a place can ever really be discovered, like a tree falling in a forest... what hubris to think that it needs a human being to validate its existence...and then, of course, facts... many brutally at odds with romantic glorification of how the US came to be.

An overhaul may be a sign of historical maturity. Then again, it could signify all sorts of things, comrade.

[moriah]

75. Worse, that it needed a white human being to "discover" it.

Columbus "discovered" America like a car thief "discovers" the car they steal.

[cwydro]

36. Weren't these type posts once called "meta"?

[leftofcool]

8. Thank you for speaking out on this genocidal maniac.

Many of us in our Tribal communities have been speaking out about this for decades in the same way we speak out about other things that have harmed us in the past and still do so today. The last time that anyone on DU or anywhere else cared what we think was never.

[raging moderate]

11. I care what you think.

You are right.

[leftofcool]

12. Thank you.

[jcmaine72]

15. Thank you for the kind words!

You wanna laugh? The person who recommended this forum to me actually warned me that I was probably too conservative to last here for any length of time, and yet, here I am, on the cusp being banned no doubt for being too liberal. Who would've guessed that Columbus would have so many supporters on a forum for Democrats?

[cyclonefence]

13. Thank you for speaking out

I am not a Native American, nor have I ever discussed this topic with anyone who was, but facts are facts. People need to read a good (i.e. not written for children) history book.

[jcmaine72]

20. Thank you! Yes, facts are stubborn things, aren't they? In the case of Columbus and his

legacy, they are well documented and undeniable. At the very least, we should have evolved past the need to dishonestly gloss over those harsh facts because it makes us feel uncomfortable discussing them. That's no way to make progress on anything.

[dgibby]

67. "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn

should be taught in every school in the US. Unfortunately, that will probably never happen. What an eye opener!

[Mrs. Overall]

14. Great post.

Well written.

[jcmaine72]

21. Thanks so much!

[raging moderate]

16. Thank you for speaking out about this historical lie.

And this historical crime.

[jcmaine72]

27. Thank you! Luckily, both the lie and the crimes are too big to be hidden anymore.

And I say that as someone who read and enjoyed Washington Irving's fanciful biography of Columbus as a child. Fortunately, the scholarship on Columbus and his legacy has advanced in leaps and bounds since then. The people most adversely affected by that legacy, Indigenous peoples and Africans, now thankfully have a voice in that scholarship.

[delisen]

17. Rename: Invasion Day?

or simply Landing Day-1492 or Mis-landing Day-1492 since the original destination was far west.

or because the voyage was a failed search for a new trade route: Global Trade Surprise Day.

the inclusion of "Global" helps bring the holiday up-to-date

[csziggy]

18. Columbus - or Colon as he called himself - was a vile human being

Over the last few months I have read "1492" and am working on "1493" both by Charles Mann. "1492" uses historical and archeological sources to describe the civilizations in the Americas prior to and at the point of contact with Europeans and some of what happened to them after contact. "1493" covers the global impact of that contact, sometimes called the Columbian Exchange.

Both books describe details I was never taught in history classes including the enslavement and abuse of the American Indians even as they were being decimated by diseases introduced by the Europeans. "1493" takes that even farther as Mann explores how the invaders became reliant on slave labor so once the Indians were reduced to a tiny fraction of their original populations, new sources of slave labor had to be explored. Most slaves were imported from Africa but I just finished the section on guano importation to Europe. Chinese were duped into signing on to become slaves - they were told the contracts were for indenture but they were literally worked to death on the guano island off Peru.

Columbus should be remembered but not honored. His impact on the Americas and global systems changed the world economically, socially, and ecologically. Columbus changed the world as much as Adolf Hitler or Ghengis Khan did and should be remembered in much the same way.

[yellerpup]

44. Absolutely.

I've read "1492" and I'll pick up a copy of "1493."

[csziggy]

63. It's really informative: history I had never seen before.

Unfortunately I have not been able to concentrate on it over the last few weeks but I am trudging through it. That is not a comment on the quality of the writing - it is just how distracted I am with personal worries.

[yellerpup]

65. It's a pretty chewy book

but worth it. I write plays about Cherokee history (in Indian Territory/Oklahoma) with anecdotes and citations that are eyeopening. Telling the untold stories of our people is my mission; most of those stories are tragedies.

[LanternWaste]

22. There will always be people

There will always be people pretending to be clever enough that they can instruct us on who, what, when, where and how to celebrate, worship and even grieve for others; and when called on it, construct a wonderfully imaginative cross from which to hang themselves from for a more melodramatic martyrdom.

You're only missing a Hans Zimmer soundtrack.

[angrychair]

64. With all due respect

Your statement is a fallacy that must be called out more often and relentlessly: your “right” to celebrate, worship or grieve should not obligate my direct or indirect participation or be an endorsement, implied or otherwise, by the US government or society or me personally.

We focus on the “right” of any idiot, including now someone who is mentally ill, to walk around in public with a loaded and dangerous weapon with NO thought to my right to be safe in my person and property and liberty to walk in a public space without having to wonder if some idiot with a semi-automatic rifle on his shoulder and handgun strapped to his hip is “good” or “bad” or just pissed off today.

That some other person’s religion has to be on my money, in my schools and in my public meetings and I have to respect their “rights” but no one is supposed to respect mine to be free from religion in my government.

That those I care about have to respect the “right” of someone to deny them the honest medical advice of their doctor and deny them professional medical care because of someone else’s “right” without thought to them and their rights.

That those I care about can be denied the ability to be a parent or get healthcare benefits like any other spouse or denied services and rights and the ability to be employed because of someone else’s ”right”.

That people feel they have a “right” to grieve in the public sphere and have their pleas to their deity invoked repeatedly, without regard to my rights to be free from religion and a government endorsement of religion.

A belief that their “rights” supersede mine.

A person is more than welcome to own a weapon in their home but it is a violation of my rights to be forced to assume that a complete stranger with a weapon in a public space doesn’t mean me harm. Why are their right to a weapon greater than my right to liberty?

Despite having their deity on US money, in our national anthem and start of sessions of Congress and having churches on almost every corner and demanding their right to refuse services and get healthcare denied to people they don’t agree with, Christians continue to insist how they are being oppressed.

Sorry, your “right” to celebrate Columbus should not translate to a “right” to it being endorsed as a US holiday and the endorsement, even indirectly, of our government and it’s citizens being forced to agree with it.

[L. Coyote]

26. Wait, you forget to tell us the specifics of your genealogy report. Don't think for a minute

you're getting off this easy. This is Amerikkka, land of the freedom to exterminate everyone in the path of imperialist domination and wealthy white privilege.

[Thomas Hurt]

28. Might consider...?

drawing people's attention to the jingoism and exceptionalism that gave us Columbus Day rather than the dead a hole himself.

[jcmaine72]

30. I'm game. How do you think that will go over here?

I got accused of being a Russian spy for, yes, going after the "dead a-hole". What will I be accused of being for highlighting the fervent nationalism that both resurrected Columbus (he had actually fallen into obscurity until Irving published his book about him) and idealized his legacy to buttress our own imperial ambitions (Manifest Destiny anyone?) in the 19th & early 20th century? I shudder to think...

[Saviolo]

29. Lots of people react badly to "uncomfortable" truths:

So you've gotta wrap it in just enough comedy to make the horror palatable:

Link to tweet

[7962]

31. Everyone pretty much knows the Vikings were here 100s of yrs sooner.

Its just a matter of who got the "settlement" ball rolling

[AtheistCrusader]

32. Columbus was a thief, a murderer, and a slaver. Doesn't belong on the calendar.

When an evil fuck stumbles across a discovery, that doesn't make them noteworthy people.

[zentrum]

34. Maybe it's time

...to point out that the good Democrat, Mayor Bill deBlasio, is spearheading a questioning of whether we should have a Columbus statue and "Columbus Circle" in NY--given that Columbus was a slaver, abettor of rape, and the start of a genocide.

Guess we should check deBlasio's deep Russian ties.

[oberliner]

37. Here is Bill de Blasio marching in the Columbus Day parade

[aidbo]

56. Politicians gonna politic.

[oberliner]

57. His grandparents are Italian immigrants

It's not just political for him, it's about celebrating his heritage.

“The parade is a moment to express our pride in our Italian heritage, for all of us who are Italian, and for others to recognize the contributions Italian-Americans have made to New York City and the whole country."

[zentrum]

87. Not denying that Bill's

....playing it both ways.

He absolutely is wanting to question the whole Columbus hagiography.

This from the New York Times:

Like a climactic scene in an Italian melodrama, all the main characters in New York’s political imbroglio over monuments of historical figures, and what to do with them, emerged Monday on the rain-doused Columbus Day parade route up Fifth Avenue.

There, umbrella-less and wet-haired, was Mayor Bill de Blasio, whose ordering of a 90-day review of monuments for possible removal has ensnared the Italian explorer’s many likenesses around town, and angered many Italian-Americans.

BTW--to honor Italians, let's not forget the statue of Garibaldi in Washington Sq. Park. He's the one that "unified Italy". Maybe Garibaldi and other famous Italians are a better way to go.

[snooper2]

35. Oh, it is that time of year again. The SI edition we love doesn't come out till Feb right?

LOL

[SweetieD]

40. I honestly don't understand why we celebrate Columbus Day period. Nt

[oberliner]

41. To celebrate Italian-American heritage and culture

In the early 20th century, Italian-Americans and other immigrants were treated with great prejudice and bigotry by a large percentage of the Anglo-Americans. In order to combat that bigotry and show support for these immigrant groups, Franklin Delano Roosevelt established this national holiday.

[SweetieD]

43. It still seems ridiculous. Columbus would not identified as an Italian in the modern sense. The fact

that Italians take pride in him is revisionist history.

[oberliner]

46. Have you heard of the Knights of Columbus?

If not, I would encourage you to read up on them if you are interested in learning more about the relationship between Columbus and Italian-Americans (and other Catholics in the US, particularly Irish-Americans).

Here is an interesting excerpt from the Wikipedia article on the subject:

The name of Columbus was also partially intended as a mild rebuke to Anglo-Saxon Protestant leaders, who upheld the explorer (a Genovese Italian Catholic who had worked for Catholic Spain) as an American hero, yet simultaneously sought to marginalize recent Catholic immigrants. In taking Columbus as their patron, the founders expressed their belief that not only could Catholics be full members of American society, but were instrumental in its foundation.

[SweetieD]

50. I honestly don't care about that. If you are defending this maybe you should read up about Columbus

His own words, not fantasies people have created about him centuries later. And genoa was not a part of Italy when he was born and he spent most of his life in in spain, proper, and Portugal. So italians clinging to him as an Italian representation is a later created fantasy.

Calling Columbus Italian is like calling William the Conqueror French.

[oberliner]

52. I have nothing positive to say about Columbus

I am talking about Columbus Day and what it has meant to Italian-Americans and other Catholic immigrants who were both marginalized by the Anglo Protestant majority and terrorized by the KKK throughout the early 20th century.

The name is simply a symbol, completely separate from the 500+ year old individual, that represents taking pride in being an Italian-American.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt, in naming Columbus Day a federal holiday, did so in order to send a message that Italian-Americans and other immigrants (particularly Catholics) are just as American as White Anglo Saxon Protestants.

[tonedevil]

68. Do you suppose...

that symbol means something else to Native Americans? Should that matter?

[oberliner]

69. That's a good point

I can understand that argument and respect those Native Americans who protest Columbus Day events for that reason.

I think the way that President Obama handled it in his last presidential statement on the subject was sensitive to that.

These two paragraphs in particular:

Though Columbus departed from the coast of Spain, his roots traced back to his birthplace of Genoa, Italy. Blazing a trail for generations of Italian explorers and Italian Americans to eventually seek the promise of the New World, his voyage churned the gears of history. The bonds between Italy and the United States could not be closer than they are today -- a reflection of the extraordinary contributions made by both our peoples in our common efforts to shape a better future. Across our Nation, Italian Americans continue to enrich our country's traditions and culture.

As we mark this rich history, we must also acknowledge the pain and suffering reflected in the stories of Native Americans who had long resided on this land prior to the arrival of European newcomers. The past we share is marked by too many broken promises, as well as violence, deprivation, and disease. It is a history that we must recognize as we seek to build a brighter future -- side by side and with cooperation and mutual respect. We have made great progress together in recent years, and we will keep striving to maintain strong nation-to-nation relationships, strengthen tribal sovereignty, and help all our communities thrive.

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2016/10/08/presidential-proclamation-columbus-day-2016

[WinkyDink]

74. He was a Genovese! Cannot GET much more Italian than that! Oh, wait; you're gonna throw

"city-states" at me, aren't you?

Hmmm. I wonder if modern Norwegians realize they aren't Vikings. Like Eric the Red?

And King Alfred the Great was really just Wessexian!

[ileus]

42. apology accepted

[mikeysnot]

45. The Truth About Columbus

If you need a good example of the white wash the wrong wingers are reading head on over to the Daily Signal. Good example of hack journalism....

[whathehell]

48. Not excusing Chris C at all -- He sounds like a major bastard, but he's not

the first, unfortunately....He stands in a long line of "conquererers" like Alexander the Great, for instance who are viewed as "great" because of all they STOLE from other nations and peoples.

I never understood this, especially in the context of a putative "moral civilization" and its education system. Like other imperialists, he was just a THIEF who stole -- and presumably murdered -- other people for his and his nation's gain.


Although I was told Alexander is called 'the great" because he conquered lots of territory in a short time, I don't see how that changes things...He was a BETTER thief than most?

Not trying to start a gender war here, but this view of history:s heroes seems to reflect a toxic strain of patriarchal values.

[oberliner]

49. FDR made Columbus Day a federal holiday to combat bigotry against Catholic immigrants

The reason was that Italian-Americans and other Catholic immigrants had been persecuted by the Anglo Protestant majority in the United States at the time (included being terrorized by the KKK).

This was a way of telling the country that immigrants (in this case Italian-American immigrants) were just as American as Anglo Protestants.

Note this excerpt from the Wikipedia page about the Knights of Columbus (also posted upthread):

The name of Columbus was also partially intended as a mild rebuke to Anglo-Saxon Protestant leaders, who upheld the explorer (a Genovese Italian Catholic who had worked for Catholic Spain) as an American hero, yet simultaneously sought to marginalize recent Catholic immigrants. In taking Columbus as their patron, the founders expressed their belief that not only could Catholics be full members of American society, but were instrumental in its foundation.

[whathehell]

70. Wow..I did not know that..Thanks.

Having been raised Catholic myself, I especially appreciate knowing that.

As you may know, historians declared FDR the 3td greatest American President (some believed 2nd) ever and I agree with them.

He was a wise, very good man, though not perfect, as critics of the Japanese -American Internment rightly point out.

Thanks again.

[WinkyDink]

73. Your source about FDR? Yes, he was lobbied, but he wasn't the first President to want the date a

national holiday. Wm. Henry Harrison:
http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1929666,00.html

[oberliner]

80. Have you seen:"The Italian Americans" series on PBS?

This episode in particular:

http://www.pbs.org/the-italian-americans/about/episode-3/

[Voltaire2]

88. Great well how about we rename it "Italian Heritage Day"?

And then we can stop celebrating Columbus and continue to celebrate our Italian Americans.

[Enoki33]

58. Columbus was indeed a vile person. The supporting facts

are uncomfortably to some, as are the accomplishments enabled by land theft, genocide and slavery. The old adage of the greatest crimes are committed in the name of religion reverberates on Columbus Day.

[Virtual Burlesque]

59. Columbus is pretty weak beer.

He wasn't the first to reach the Americas. The Vikings beat him to North America, archaeologists have proven that. And there's proof being uncovered that Chinese trader/explorers beat Columbus to South America by seventy years. What is more, both groups of explorers knew where they were going, and where they were when they arrived. Columbus' navigation was off by over eight thousand miles.

But actually, the only people with a right to claim the discovery of America would seem to be the Siberians who crossed the Bering Strait land bridge between thirty and sixteen thousand years ago.

In any case, Amerigo Vespucci, an Italian navigator, cartographer proved that Columbus' charts were in error. That the land he had claimed was not the westernmost landfalls of China, but a strange land completely unknown to the Old World. Therefore, this New World was named America, after Amerigo Vespucci, instead of Columbus, after Christopher Columbus.

[Lunabell]

61. Happy Indigenous People day.

The REAL people who discovered America.

[WinkyDink]

76. Then they aren't "indigenous," are they? Maybe indigenous to Asia? IOW, I'm cracking wise, but

as long as we're being scrupulously correct and non-Euro-centric about who did what and when........

[Lunabell]

82. The First People

[WinkyDink]

72. Oh, brother. DRAH-MA!

[guillaumeb]

77. Sorry for your experience.

As I pointed out in your other thread, there is Columbus the myth, and Columbus the reality.

In the myth, the noble man brings civilization to the savage primitives and starts a process of taming a new frontier.

In reality, Columbus recognized that the indigenous people were ripe for exploitation and enslavement, and that is what the colonialists proceeded to do.


Recommended for both posts.

[sharedvalues]

78. I stand corrected on Columbus.

I think that progressives right now should be focused on actual racists, in the White House and in Charlottesville. And focused on big money in politics, the desire of the Koch brothers to destroy government, poor people losing healthcare for tax cuts for the rich, and the GOP lying about climate change.

That said, you're right that Columbus doesn't seem worth celebrating. Here's one explanation why, drawn mostly from Zinn.
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day

But can we really have this discussion in around 2021 after we've resolved the clear and present danger to American democracy? (Or else ended up in a dictatorship if we didn't fight hard enough to stop the GOP and voter suppression and propaganda.). I'd love to discuss more after the traitors are out of the white house and Congress. Focus and persistence are important now.

[Willie Pep]

79. Columbus came from a time that was pretty brutal.

But then again the Aztecs were brutal too and engaged in human sacrifice. I don't object to the characterization of Columbus as a violent man but I don't agree with the attempt to selectively use the historical record to attack Europeans only.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

83. The "historical record" is the fact that our country named a day after this sick man who,

in his own time, was considered savage. No one is saying other people and cultures aren't terrible. They're saying should our nation mark a day named for a man who was generally awful?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

84. To whoever objected to my #ItalianAmericanHeritage post...

You can hide my post, but you can't hide history. Either you've named a day meant for #ItalianAmericanHeritage after a monster, in which case it should be changed, or...that's your heritage.