Sam Brownback, Catholic, has a daughter who had a non-Catholic wedding today

[proud2BlibKansan]

Yes, this is a big deal because Sam and his crew pretend they are the morality police in Kansas. And in the Catholic church, it is a sin to attend a wedding in a non-Catholic church. It's a sin to ever attend a service or any event in a non-Catholic church. Weddings, funerals, baptisms, whatever. I have family members who married in non-Catholic ceremonies and about half my family didn't attend their weddings because they wouldn't sin and go into a non-Catholic church.

And Sam belongs to a very conservative Catholic sect that still says the Mass in Latin. They also believe in segregating boys and girls.

So abortion is a sin but he gets to ignore the other rules of the church that he doesn't like.

No I don't blame him for wanting to go to his daughter's wedding. But he can't pretend to be a devout Catholic and sin when it's convenient for him without being called out for it. Not when he thinks he has the right to preach morality to the rest of us.

http://cjonline.com/news/2011-12-31/first-daughter-kansas-wed#.Tv-7-5hQZVg

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Damn right!

His hypocrisy deserves to be called out.

Thank you!

[CurtEastPoint]

2. It is not a sin (per the CC) to attend a non-Catholic wedding or service. Someone's being misled.

I'm all for smashing hypocrisy (and Brownback's a good example) but please don't mis-inform about Catholic teachings.

[HockeyMom]

4. If his daughter is a catholic,

and marries in a non-catholic church without a priest, she is not married at all according to the catholic church. She is living in sin.

[CurtEastPoint]

7. True, but the OP was stating it's a sin for a Catholic to ATTEND a wedding in a non-Catholic church.

They were calling out Brownback's hypocrisy, but this is not an example of it. Granted, there are TONS of examples of his hypocrisy.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. Since he only converted in 2002, she may not be Catholic

(2002 from Wikipedia, so I don't know if that's accurate). The article says it was the church he got married in 29 years ago.

[southernyankeebelle]

20. She must get permission to marry a non-catholic from her priest. If I remember right.

I use to work for a priest many years ago. The couple sets up a meeting with the priest. In some parrish you have to attend a pre-cana class. It can last one year or 6 months depending on the parrish. When my husband and I went it was for about 4 months. I found it to be very helpful. But getting married in a catholic church takes time. The priest has to check out if you had all your sacraments. Your birth certificate has to be updated. Its alittle crazy. But I am not sure isn't Brownback a convert? Maybe his daughter wasn't even a catholic. It could be possible.

I have attended many funerals and weddings of non-catholics. When I went to their church service I made sure never to receive communion. I know that is a strict rule in the catholic church. When I got married I made sure my priest knew that there were people that were coming to my wedding that weren't catholic and please make sure when we have communion they know that they are not to receive. I might be a lapsed catholic but taking communion is still a big thing to me. There was only one time I didn't want to hurt the person's feelings. It was my husband's natural mother and we had just found out where she was and had been in contact with them for awhile. Her husband had died. They were Lutherans. I asked my priest if I should take communion as not to offend her family. He said play it by ear. They did have communion but she didn't take communion so we didn't either.

I don't think people will go to hell if you attend someones funeral or wedding.

[cali]

36. uh, what makes you think she's a Catholic?

[Charlemagne]

42. I married my catholic wife

In a catholic church. Im not catholic. We didnt have a priest do the ceremony. It was a deacon or something. Im pretty sure it still counts as marriage. I mean, we had to sit through the classes and pay the guy.

[quiller4]

50. Sam converted. His daughter didn't. This is much adou about nothing. n/t

[southernyankeebelle]

54. Then she doesn't need to get premission from the catholic church. Catholics in

in general need to go through a series of things before the priest can marry them in the first place.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. It most certainly is a sin.

My uncle was a priest. My cousin is a nun. We have had lengthy discussions about this very issue many many times in my family. Also when I was still Catholic, the pastor of my church told me I couldn't attend the wedding of a good friend because it was in a non-Catholic church. He said if I went to that wedding, I better not come sit in HIS confessional a week later and ask for my sin to be forgiven.

[CurtEastPoint]

10. OK, he said/she said. I'm bowing out and not arguing this further.

Your uncle is/was wrong. Priests DO make mistakes. But again, I'm totally on board loathing Brownback, but not for this 'sin'.
Submitted respectfullly!!

[Dawson Leery]

12. Many years back my uncle married a Methodist.

Neither of them were very religious. My aunt (Catholic) asked my uncle and his wife to be the God parents of her daughter. The Priest told my aunt that was not going to happen. He also told her that she is to never attend any religious ceremonies with my uncle and his wife and that they were never allowed into a Catholic Church. My aunt's husband who is too is Catholic told this priest to "fuck off".

[southernyankeebelle]

21. To be god parents at least one of them must be a catholic. Why do you think they have

god parents. In case the parents die the god parents can step in and will make sure the child gets acatholic teachings and a good upbring. It's an honor to be chosen to be a god parent.

[WinkyDink]

16. Then, frankly, your relatives are misinformed to the point of bizarre.

[dflprincess]

31. I was taught in Catechism (pre Vatican II)

that we could attend services in other churches but we could not participate in the service in anyway. It was also stressed that we were to be respectful while in another church.

[TexasProgresive]

33. Now you may attend and participate in the "Common Prayers"

But not receive communion.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

39. your family notwithstanding

even Canon 1258 which you mention below disagrees with you (and them). It helps if you study the WHOLE thing...

sP

[joeglow3]

47. Holy Shit, they don't know their own faith

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=244631

[Doremus]

48. I was married in the Catholic church by a Catholic priest and I'm not Catholic.

We didn't even have to take classes or counseling or anything else they require today. My husband grew up in the parish; he and his family had their first communions, confirmations, marriages, etc. in the same church for many years.

I had to promise to raise our kids in the church but I did not have to convert.

Seems there's some latitude in the rules, eh?

[DesertFlower]

3. i was a catholic many years ago

and don't remember any rule like that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. Canon 1258:

"It is not lawful for the faithful in any way to assist actively or to take part in the religious services of non-Catholics. Passive or merely material presence can be tolerated of a civic official or on account of respect ... at funerals, marriages, and similar functions of non-Catholics, as long as there be absent the danger of perversity or scandal."

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091113230253AAK0gBM

He was most definitely a participant in the wedding.

[bluedigger]

34. Somebody should have told the priest that married my protestant wife and I.

Father Gaffey had no problem marrying two Congregationalists on the back lawn of his Catholic church back in 1982. He never even hesitated or mentioned any reservations when we asked him. Of course, it was a small ceremony, as we eloped, but he did say a prayer.

It didn't work...

[ProdigalJunkMail]

41. holy shit...

you posted THIS and you still think a layman sinned in his attendance at a non-Catholic wedding??? what the fuck? are you just trying to stir up shit or do you really not understand?

sP

[Dorian Gray]

5. You are very misinformed

it is not a sin to attend a service in another church.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. My uncle was a priest. Yes, it's a sin.

One of the many reasons I left the church was because of silly sins like this.

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. A priest says here it's OK, as long as there's no communion

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/04/quaeritur-can-we-attend-non-catholic-weddings/

[WinkyDink]

17. EXACTLY. "Communion" is the dividing line.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. This one says no:

"It is plain that a wedding led by a man or a priest who are heretics --- and which involves ceremonies of a religious nature or prayers unique to a false religion --- is totally off-limits to those who are real Catholics."
http://www.theepistemologicworks.com/frames/letters-and-admonishments/non-catholic-worship-forbidden.html


I believe it probably depends on how conservative you are. And Brownback is about as conservative as a Catholic can be. His home parish says Mass in Latin.

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. He's not very conservative, from a denominational point of view:

Last edited Sat Dec 31, 2011, 11:16 PM - Edit history (1)

Despite his conversion to Catholicism, Brownback regularly attends the nondenominational and evangelical Topeka Bible Church in Topeka, Kan.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/10/27/what-is-sam-brownbacks-religion/

And some pretty high-up Catholics have no problem attending Church of England weddings:

The Catholic clergymen who have been invited to attend Prince William and Catherine Middleton's wedding include the Emeritus Archbishop of Westminster, HE Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor, who is personally acquainted with the Queen and Prince Philip. The other two cardinals on the guest list are Cardinal Sean Brady, Archbishop of Armagh, and Cardinal Keith Patrick O’Brien, Archbishop of St. Andrews and Edinburgh. The Most Rev Vincent Nichols, Archbishop of Westminster, will represent the Catholic Church in England and Wales, whilst His Excellency Archbishop Antonio Mennini, the Apostolic Nuncio to the Court of St James, will represent the Pope. Two Catholic priests have also been awarded the honour of being invited to the wedding, the first being Canon Christopher Tuckwell (already mentioned) and the second being Mgr Philip Kerr, who is the Convener of Churches Together in Scotland.

http://areluctantsinner.blogspot.com/2011/04/royal-wedding-guest-list-includes-three.html

On edit: Paul Doughton thinks there hasn't been a valid Pope since 1960, since they all accepted Vatican II: http://www.theepistemologicworks.com/frames/letters-and-admonishments/myself-website-sedevacantism.html

[southernyankeebelle]

25. l Love the Latin Mass. Funny how we all believe in the same god yet pray to him differently.

To me the only thing I take seriously is communion. I don't think god would hate anyone from attending anyones wedding or funeral. When my brother died a few years back we had many many people of faith there. My older Aunt wanted to make sure we said the rosaries. There were people standing around and my aund led us very respectfully. Those who were catholics stood respectfully and watched the chant going on. At the end some people came over and thanked us because they never seen that before and found it really nice. For me I always like learning new things.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

40. wrong...

not ...

sP

[Dorian Gray]

46. You can not receive

communion at another church. It is not a sin to simply attend another service.

That is incorrect. Now, if you attend that service in lieu of a Catholic service, that's something else entirely. But to attend a service at another church (as the op claimed) is not a sin.

[DeathToTheOil]

9. Beer is Best when Cold

[onehandle]

23. Hell Yeah! nt

[WinkyDink]

14. I'm Catholic, and find your definition of "sin" without foundation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. Canon 1258

Look it up.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

28. Canon law is open to interpretation

Like Constitutional law, it's all in the interpretation.

My ex is Catholic, I am not. We were married in my church (Baptist), and her priest participated by blessing our marriage at the end of the Baptist ceremony. She had a dispensation to be married to a non-Catholic Christian in a non-Catholic Christian church. Her sister was maid of honor and her father walked her down the aisle, so they obviously participated.

I doubt a priest would have participated he believed it to be a sin.

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. Canon 1258 has been out-of-date since 1983

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6YCpraE-7xcC&pg=PA1024&lpg=PA1024&dq=%22Catholic+ministers+administer+the+sacraments+licitly+to+Catholic+members+of+the+Christian+faithful+alone%22&source=bl&ots=ZeDEnzstVu&sig=fWDLQlkprxyUoWc8F3lsnEPsXx0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-8n_TtmiHYHT8QOI3JCnCg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Catholic%20ministers%20administer%20the%20sacraments%20licitly%20to%20Catholic%20members%20of%20the%20Christian%20faithful%20alone%22&f=false

"canon 1258 is abrogated by omission"

[ProdigalJunkMail]

38. too bad you missed this little tidbit...

Canon 1258: 2
Passive or merely material presence for the sake of civil courtesy, duty, or respect, for a grave reason which, in case of doubt, should have the approval of the Bishop, may be tolerated, at the funerals, WEDDINGS, and other such celebrations of non-Catholics, provided there is no danger of perversion or scandal.

Don'tcha just hate it when people actually READ.


sP

[onehandle]

22. The Pope attended services at a synagogue, so you better let him know he sinned.

I've been to services of just about every major religion (plus a lot of weddings) and have not been 'shunned.'

A paper thin amount of Catholics are 'orthodox.' Only the conservative loons make the news.

[Nye Bevan]

26. It's a sin.

When I look back upon my life, it's always with a sense of shame. I've always been the one to blame. For everything I long to do, no matter when or where or who, has one thing in common, too, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a sin. It's a sin. Everything I've ever done, everything I ever do, every place I've ever been, everywhere I'm going to, it's a sin.

[coalition_unwilling]

43. From one of the first poets of the 99% (with

apologies to fans of John Milton and William Shakespeare):

The Garden of Love

I went to the Garden of Love,
And saw what I never had seen:
A Chapel was built in the midst,
Where I used to play on the green.

And the gates of this Chapel were shut,
And "Thou shalt not" writ over the door;
So I turn'd to the Garden of Love,
That so many sweet flowers bore,

And I saw it was filled with graves,
And tomb-stones where flowers should be:
And Priests in black gowns were walking their rounds,
And binding with briars my joys & desires.

~William Blake

*****************

One of my favorite poems by Blake. Love the final two lines.

[southernyankeebelle]

27. I just googled Brownback and see that he is a convert to Catholicism from Evangelicalism. No wonder

he is such a nut bag. That tells you a lot about him.

[coalition_unwilling]

45. Not sure whether that would be jumping from the frying pan into the fire, or

jumping from the fire into the frying pan

[southernyankeebelle]

52. No there is a big difference between both. I'm surprised though because Evangelicals don't

like catholics. They never have. It's a relationship of convenience to get what they want politically. I have worked in many chapels. My husband was a chaplains assistant in the army for 21 yrs. He said even before he came into the military the evangelicals were a crazy bunch. You have a extreme part in the catholic church. However, many are liberal catholics like myself. Many of us believe in birth control.

[coalition_unwilling]

56. I was attempting to make a joke on doctrinal differences (with

fire equalling hellfire). I guess the joke fell a bit flat, probably because it relies on obscure and dated notions of Catholicism and Protestantism.

Definitely an interesting conversion. Wonder what prompted it.

Evangelicals do not like Catholics for theological reasons going back to the Reformation and John Calvin. We think our culture wars are nasty but they are a romp in the park compared to the brutality and nastiness of the Counter-Reformation (aka 'Spanish Inquisition') and the 30 Years War.

[southernyankeebelle]

57. Oh, sorry I didn't get was a joke. Sometimes it flies right over my head. Your right about the

reformation. Terrible stuff happened way back in history. Christains forget what crap they did back then. I guess the part that evang. act like their own poop don't stink. Its do what I say not as I do.

[The Genealogist]

30. "It's a sin to ever attend a service or any event in a non-Catholic church..."

It may well be a sin. My stepmother is Catholic, and has been for over 40 years, when she married her first husband and converted. Not only is she divorced (no religious annulment), but she married a Methodist (my father) in a United Methodist church. For a long time, she was not allowed to take communion because she didn't have an annulment of the marriage. But she has actively gone to the same church since they started the parish, and taught Sunday School there since before she married my father . According to her, her parish priest's immediate superior order him to allow her to take communion. Her first marriage is still not annulled. This is not to mention the countless religious ceremonies she has gone to and participated in that are not Catholic. Her son married a Baptist at a Unity church (!!!!) and not only participates in communion but in Knights of Columbus and other parts of the organization. He too has been to religious ceremonies at other churches and participated in them. He did have a blessing ceremony thing years later at his church, however he is still married to a Baptist, as she never converted. I don't know where this rule you are talking about comes from, but these two examples from my own life makes me ask about it. Is the priest who is saying these things conservative or a bit pre-Vatican II person? Or is this something you learned about before Vatican II? Is it a sin that can be forgiven without greater ramification than some rosary time? I seriously do want to know, as having been around very active Catholics for most of my life, I have never heard of it.

[lynne]

32. Who really cares?

Devout Catholics maybe? Devout Catholics have bigger things to worry about - like priests raping alter boys and such. It means nothing to me as a Methodist.

Making a deal out of this is a bit of a stretch. Laughable, really.

[southernyankeebelle]

53. Catholics are not allowed to receive communion in any other church but their own. That is a serious

thing. I believe in the communion. I don't know why but to me its important. If I decided to receive communion I would have to go to confession because its been a very long time since I had communion. Now don't get me wrong I see catholics everyday who shouldn't be receiving communion. But it is between them and god.

[dems_rightnow]

35. The situation that would be worthy of a derisive post is

.... if he refused to go to his daughter's wedding because it was not a Catholic one. That would be bizarre and worthy of a scathing post.

Going to his daughter's wedding? Not so much.

[NNN0LHI]

37. Raised Catholic and never heard of these sins about going into other churches and such

I have been to bar mitzvahs, weddings and baptisms of just about every major faith and when we were on vacation, if there wasn't a Catholic church in that town on Sunday, my mother brought us to whatever church was closest regardless of what denomination it was.

Don

[coalition_unwilling]

44. Laughing good-naturedly at your Mom's doctrinal flexibility. Henry VIII and

Oliver Cromwell could have learned a thing or two from her

Trans-substantiation, schubschmantiation

[LibDemAlways]

49. A little off topic but this post reminds me of a woman I worked

with 30 years ago. She was in her sixties at the time. She was not Catholic. During WWII she was married briefly to a soldier and divorced right after the war. She then married again and had been married over 30 years when I knew her. Apparently her first husband, who was also not Catholic, was engaged to a Catholic woman. In order for the two of them to marry in a Catholic Church my friend's first marriage had to be annulled by the church. She was questioned at length by a priest and later received notification that the marriage had been annulled. She thought the whole thing was ridiculous and that the church had no business annulling the marriage of two non-Catholics that had not taken place in a Catholic church to begin with.

As far as attending a non-Catholic wedding, I believe the "rules" were much more strict years ago, but, like everything else, have now pretty much eased up. Only a very conservative hardline priest would chastise a Catholic for setting foot in a church of another denomination.

You'd think people would have more important stuff to worry about. Jeez.

[MineralMan]

51. What are you going on about with this?

In the first place, it's not true that Catholics cannot attend weddings in other churches. In the second place, what possible business of yours could this be? I'm sorry, but this just seems to be picky nonsense. Brownback is a turd, but who cares if he gives away his daughter in marriage in a non-Catholic church?

I cannot understand why this is even posted here. Why would anyone be interested?

[Iggo]

55. Oh jeez.

Really? That's what we got? He's a sinner?