Never forget how Jill Stein, Susan Sarandon, and those others who pushed the big lie

[still_one]

"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

[mcar]

1. K&R

[BigmanPigman]

2. If people learned from history the first war would have also

been the last one. That is the problem...we never, ever learn! The human race isn't very bright if you think about it.

[still_one]

3. 2000 was the lesson they should have learned from, and the usual suspects were at it again in 2016

[BigmanPigman]

8. Damn good point!

[paleotn]

19. +100010

[Honeycombe8]

27. Yep. Sarandon was a Nader supporter then. Makes me wonder what her goal is. nt

[trc]

30. Me thinks her goal is to be the cool outsider

bucking the system- stickin it to the Man, as it were.

[Honeycombe8]

31. Could be. It's certainly not to protect the environment, as she says. nt

[paleotn]

64. She's extremely wealthy. She can afford it.

Most Americans cannot.

[joshcryer]

35. They waited a voting generation.

And they will keep doing it until they get their way. Nevermind the extraordinary rapid progress that has happened in those 16 years. Stuff has happened so far, largely in part due to Democrats, that is way more than we could've ever dreamed of.

[Blue_true]

67. Yeah.

They seem to target young voters at a critical time, like when an 8 year Democratic President has cleaned up a mess and we need to keep progressing by electing a Democrat to follow. No one of the no difference crowd can convince me that there isn't a massive, freaking ocean sized difference between what Hillary would have been and what Trump is. Everything that Stein, Sarandon, West, et al claim was sacred to them is under full scale assault from Trump, but what are the Sarandon people saying? If they do speak, it is plain vanilla bull. They don't care about progress, in fact it can logically be argued that they are outright hostile to progress.

[sheshe2]

4. Correct.

K&R

[UCmeNdc]

5. K&R It was a big power play to divide the Democratic Party voters from their eventual candidate.

The Democratic Party Candidate is 1000 percent better and should be supported once chosen. To do otherwise leads to a Dotard like Donald Trump as president.

[aeromanKC]

12. And GOP SCOTUS for next 30 years

2000 already gave us Alito and Roberts. Now 2016 stolen democracy has given us at minimum Gorsuch.

[LisaM]

33. Yep. Same old reliable playbook.

And they won't even acknowledge voter suppression, they just scoff at it and say we need to run better campaigns or get better candidates.

We had three fantastic candidates. Al Gore, John Kerry, and Hillary Clinton. I would love to live in a country with any one of those people as president, and if all three had won, even better. I am never going to apologize for those candidates. Never.

When the Democrats garner 3,000,000 more votes for President, and 1,000,000+ more votes in the Senate than the party in power, I think it's totally fair to say that the system needs examination, not us, not our candidates, not our voters.

[loyalsister]

50. A lot of Democratic party voters are also doing the work

demonizing, belittling, hating all Trump voters is not going to help us win persuadable voters who didn't vote for Dems. Especially when it validates the liberal elite rhetoric.

[Eliot Rosewater]

51. Anyone who still supports trump is not wanted in my party ever

[OBrien]

6. Sadly Free Speech TV

Seemed it was mostly free speech for Hillary opposition.

[JCanete]

7. Establishment opposition. We do actually need that. Its not like the democratic party

looks the way it does today because everybody simply fell in line with whatever it was selling. People have been telling the party what they want it to fight for and look like and that takes voices like Free Speech TV and their audience.

[still_one]

26. Sorry, there is a time and a place for everything, and this wasn't the time for that once the

Democratic nominee was selected

Because of folly like that a lot of people are suffering, and a lot more will suffer before this is over, and the potential for the Supreme Court to cause that suffering to extend for a long time is very real

and justice Ginsberg is the perfect example where their false equivalency purist bullsht falls flat on its face

[JCanete]

49. the classic "can't talk about that right now..." issue, which will ultimately lead to that being a

perpetual state of things. Always some threat to fight that means we can't push progressivism. Frankly, I think that's why we are where we are, not the reason you think. Sorry, that is not an acceptable approach. I for one can hold a nuanced array of thoughts on a subject. I can be frustrated with the democratic establishment and want it to understand those frustrations, and then still vote for them come election day. Nothing about messaging from the left regarding how the democratic party should change makes me...or anybody ...decide instead to vote republican. Sure it may get some people to vote third party or to stay home but where the fault lies here is certainly debatable.

And it isn't that the messaging about the current status quo is making people frustrated with the status quo, it is that they are frustrated with it, thus the messaging is resonating. You can't expect that by virtue of not talking about these things, and not being critical of our problems on the democratic side of the aisle as well, that people will stop feeling those grievances. In fact, not addressing the problems with our system only allows Republicans to tap into popular dissatisfaction and to fabricate the reasons for that dissatisfaction. That gives them the opportunity to scapegoat and to misinform and to hilariously, make democrats the apologists for the status quo.

And it is kind of the job of journalists and pundits to call it how they see it. If the Democratic Party doesn't come away unscathed from criticism from the left...if those criticisms stick or hurt, then is it the criticisms or the state of the party leadership that is at fault? I think we can both agree that anything untrue levied at democrats, or really anybody, is beyond the pale. I think we can also agree that focusing solely on the failings or faults of just democrats and ignoring the astonishing GOP maliciousness and incompetence is also beyond the pale. But that isn't the kind of journalism I've experienced from say, Democracy Now or TYT. They are much less flattering to the GOP.

[stevenleser]

75. Yes, the "status quo" was so much worse than what we have now with Trump.

I'm so glad the envelope was pushed on that.

Now we have a loss of healthcare for millions, wars with North Korea and Iran and so many other goodies to which to look forward.

Well done!

[UCmeNdc]

91. It is very clear, there is a large difference between Democratic Party Candidates and Republican can

Hillary Clinton would never do the things Trump has done. Never.
Hillary Clinton and the Democratic party would be leading the United States forward. Climate Change, Race relationship, foreign affairs, environmental issues, etc. would be far better addressed and led under a President Hillary Clinton than a President Trump.

[emulatorloo]

103. Important to see the forest from the trees. DU'ers told me a predatory racist millionaire was

"Anti-Status quo" and now he's destroying everything good we acommplished. An independent called a women's health organization who is under constant attack by Republicans "Establishment" because he was butthurt over an endorsement.

IMHO the terms status-quo and establishment became practically meaningless in 2016.

[JCanete]

108. It is important I agree. The point is there is frustration and we are failing to tap into it with

truth. We let a sociopathic child tap into it instead, with shit he just spewed out his ass. People are scared and suffering and they are looking for people to blame and we tell them "we are going to get in the room with the good people who are screwing you and come to something amenable that screws you less." The GOP and Donald come out and say "its the immigrants." We're going to stop them with a wall." "its the muslims...travel ban..." "its criminal minorities...." "its the government...deregulate..."

The takeaway to me is that we should have tapped into that anger and pointed people in the right direction. THAT is a unifying direction. THAT puts poor and middle class on the same side for once. It lays bare the divide-and-conquer of the GOP strategy and undermines it, whereas the way we fight today only reinforces it.

But sure, status-quo and establishment are vague terms. For me the status quo is the machinery that makes so many of our symptomatic problems intractable. It is money in politics in all its various forms. Whereas the establishment is a beast that has been bred on this nourishment, and is resistant to learning new tricks.

[emulatorloo]

109. Simplistic "they are all the same" memes don't impress me

"and we tell them "we are going to get in the room with the good people who are screwing you and come to something amenable that screws you less."

That's not what Democrats are saying or doing.

That being said We do suck because we are so bad at messaging though. We also have a media that is never honest about Democratic positions or policies. Happily they,be gotten a little better post election, but I doubt it will last long.

That being Racism, homophobia, are very strong drugs. He knew how to exploit that. We talked unity and standing together.

[JCanete]

110. Some of Clinton's rhetoric on Wall Street rang like that to me, sorry. As to "they are all the same"

memes, they aren't helpful. I get the frustration. I get seeing how both parties have fed the same beast in different, complimentary ways. But saying they are the same only leads to trouble and convolutes the message. They are clearly not the same.

We did not unify the way we should. We accepted the lines the GOP drew. We didn't disrupt them. Class warfare disrupts them. It should be the 99 percent as a counterweight to the interests of the 1 percent. Instead, we are at each others throats and the 1% is doing fucking dandy.

[emulatorloo]

111. You're well aware that Clinton would not be drastically cutting taxes on the 1% as Trump is doing

She was clear on her tax policy. Leveling the playing field and making the wealthy pay their fair share. Long held belief.

Irregardless how one "felt" about "rhetoric" her speeches and platform had plans to address income equality. Did media report on policy? No. Just melodramatic controversy. We have to overcome the media somehow to get the message out. It's very frustrating and I have no idea how to do that. Letters to the editor etc etc but

We do agree very much a lot re yr last paragraph.

[Bradical79]

95. I agree in part

But something like Free Speech TV also needs to take care not to become a mouthpiece for foreign government propaganda. When someone, like Jill Stein for example, is propped up as the face of an anti-establishment movement, the entire thing becomes compromised. She a millionaire who is allied with perhaps the wealthiest establishment authoritarian politician in the world. Lots of these anti-establishment opposition people were just flat out frauds, whether they realized it or not.

[TrollBuster9090]

40. Well, they didn't want to seem BIASED. So they bent over backwards to either bash Clinton, or

...f-ing LITERALLY show Trump's empty podium, as the pundits breathlessly discussed what he MIGHT say when he shows up.

[Eliot Rosewater]

53. Dumbest, meanest, least qualified human alive and they treated him like a god.

If the entire human race has to pay for what WE did here in America, that will suck.

WE did this, and when I say WE I include every person who ---deleted----

Oh wait, I cant say that here, I can only say that on a liberal board. or a board where liberals can talk freely

deleting now

[ProudLib72]

9. Well, remember "unity"

Our candidates might not be perfect, but they are a damned sight better than any rethug on the planet.

[Hortensis]

96. Absolutely agree. That said, integrity and competence are extremely important.

After all tthe Republicans are demonstrating big time the flip side to unity.

I wonder if it's occurred to anyone to wonder, if Sanders were to be elected in 2020, just who Sanders might appoint to fill his offices. He's spent 40 years claiming virtually our entire stock of experienced Democrats was corrupt. So unless he did a major flip, certainly no one with the proven talent and experience that elevated them above others within the party would be acceptable to him. Their very competence and leadership in "corruption" rules them out.

And he actually seems to believe this, btw, something that makes me wonder seriously about what we'd get going forward. He has a great deal of hostility toward most of the Democratic Party caucus (hundreds of them!), plus other major Democratic figures, an attitude I've always found downright peculiar, and to me an alarming sign because of those it apparently pinged with.

[Politicub]

10. They need to change their registration to R and be done with it

They're complicit in the Republican party's destruction of America, so they should proudly join it.

[IronLionZion]

11. What is it with those people?

I don't know that any of them gained anything by throwing Hillary under the bus.

[murielm99]

15. Attention.

They are attention seekers like 45.

I don't see much difference between the far left and the right.

[paleotn]

23. My personal opinion.....

Stein benefited financially through nefarious means, probably in rubles. Sarandon is simply a fucking moron.

[not fooled]

56. Was there ever

a credible accounting of all that money Stein or her party collected for recounts after the election debacle? I'm too lazy and uncaring to look it up but just wonder whether any of the millions made its way into her pocket.

[paleotn]

65. None that I'm aware off.

However, 3rd party campaigns are almost always run on a shoe string at best. I can't think of a single time when her campaign was running out of funds. Strange....very strange.

[elmac]

13. and this

[Tarheel_Dem]

14. Aren't they lucky that their millions insulates them from the wrecking ball in the Oval Office.

[Chakaconcarne]

16. for fucks sake...

I think we got the message! jeezus.

[janx]

17. I know. . .

and to tell you the truth, I don't think those women ever had that kind of power to begin with. . .

[TrollBuster9090]

38. I said the same thing, all the way from 2000 to 2008.

Apparently, we DIDN'T get the message.

[paleotn]

66. Precisely!

[KPN]

43. No fucking kidding.

How about do something different rather than blaming for a change. Take some responsibility and do something useful.

I get the need to vent, but enough is enough.

[lapucelle]

88. That's excellent advice for Stein and Sarandon,

but their entitled (and bone-headed) self-righteous indignation concerning situations they themselves help to create continues to trump all else.

If Susie and The Good Doctor want to take responsibility and do something useful, they both need to re-evaluate their methods. They've already mucked-up the Supreme Court for at least a generation.

[KPN]

99. It's good advice for anyone frankly.

[VOX]

57. It cannot be repeated enough.

Too many voters make the same mistake repeatedly.

Until that stops, the lesson never ends.

[Raine]

63. it's being repeated to the point of

people totally tuning out

[paleotn]

68. Tuning out?

Apparently, after the Nader debacle gave us the Gulf War, thousands of dead Americans and untold numbers of dead Iraqis, they still don't fucking get it. Seems to me the fucking idiots didn't listen the first time.

[Raine]

62. I know

geeesh it's the same old, same old to the point of nausea ...

[Adrahil]

69. We'll see.

I thought we learned the lesson after Nader. We didn't.

[HopeAgain]

18. Wait...

I thought it was the white men who kept Hillary from being elected??

Maybe we could focus on 2018 now?

[progressoid]

21. It's white women too!

[HopeAgain]

25. So how do we win back some white people?

Time to stop the hating, it doesn't win votes. I think we need to start talking about Democratic SOLUTIONS, not just trying to point at third party voters, Sanders Supporters and Trump Minions. We thought Trump would drive voters our way, but it did not.

Our politicians need to acknowledge that healthcare still needed more fixing after the ACA, and let them know we have solutions, talk about ways to deal with student loans, better education and opportunities, stop terrorism (domestic and foreign), talk about how we can make the world safe again with Iran and Korea. Promise change, promise better.

Time to acknowledge white people's insecurities and be positive about how Democrats can bring change that benefits everyone. I honestly think all the Trump hating, and trying to tie Candidates to Trump, Sanders, Johnson or Stein is not the best strategy. All I see from my Senator is the bad things Trump is doing and trying to tie his probable opponent to Trump.

[Awsi Dooger]

41. Have a strong white male delivering a strong message

I'm afraid it's as simple as that. Those simplistic angry males are scared of women, and many are bigots.

A small but meaningful percentage of them are willing to consider the Democrat if they could confuse his look and tone for a Republican, if you eliminate the words and issues completely.

I've spent enough time around those SAMs in Las Vegas to know what they prioritize and what they ridicule. We err in nominating too many women, IMO. It may feel great when they are elected but too often it is a forfeit of a vital 1 or 2 percent.

[not fooled]

54. Sadly,

you are probably right. The way to eventually get a woman president would be to have her serve as the male president's VP. The angry males could perhaps then see that the country doesn't explode.

[KPN]

45. Yay!

A thoughtful post. Thank you!!!!

[JI7]

58. End civil rights. White people have mostly voted republican since civil rights

[oasis]

20. Cornel West gets a certain amount of credit for the Trump presidency.

[still_one]

28. Yes, that is what I meant by those other self-identified progressives who refused to support the

Democratic nominee

[Hassin Bin Sober]

22. Don't forget Molly Ringwald.

She has to account for her actions.

[Awsi Dooger]

39. What did she do wrong?

I missed that one. I thought Molly campaigned for Hillary frequently.

[relayerbob]

44. So did I

[VOX]

61. She campaigned enthusiastically for HRC...

To what are you referring?

[Gothmog]

24. A vote for Jill Stein was a vote for trump

[radical noodle]

32. They knew that and cheered when Trump won

It didn't matter to them how many people would suffer... and they still don't care.

[delisen]

29. Purveyors of Putin's fake news/faux socialists

They decide, we suffer.

[cstanleytech]

34. No one is going to forget but I think repeatedly bringing it up and rehashing it in this manner does

little to nothing to help us.

[DesertRat]

36. k&r

[TrollBuster9090]

37. I think the "FOOL ME ONCE, SHAME ON YOU" saying is more appropriate here....

Ralph f-king NADER voters in 2000 gave us eight years of a moronic puppet President who couldn't even REMEMBER that saying without twisting himself into a mental pretzel. (He also happened to be the only president who was actually KNOCKED UNCONSCIOUS by a pretzel.)

And, having learned nothing, most of those same asshats either voted for Stein, or sat out the election altogether this time, and gave us a President that actually makes me MISS George W. Bush!

[Eliot Rosewater]

55. We aint learned shit. Dont believe me?

If i was allowed to show you a link to a group who is promoting purity tests, i could make my point.

But I am not.

[TrollBuster9090]

74. A group promoting left wing purity tests? A dollar says...

A dollar says the IP Addresses all start with a 5.56.64.0. (As in MOLDOVA.)

[left-of-center2012]

42. Why is that a lie?

[KPN]

46. Got it for the zillionth time.

Can we do something useful now?

[lark]

47. Why is it that there's always some idiot from the so-called left who screws us?

Ralph Nader did it in 2000 and Jill Stein in 2016. BTW - I really hate Susan Sarandon. How can someone be so wrong so often and still not get it? Anyone who would think for 1 min. that Clinton and orange assface are about the same is demented herself.

[rzemanfl]

48. K&R. n/t

[Blue_Tires]

52. +1

[GaryCnf]

59. So we're refighting 2000?

Sweet.

Has anyone mentioned Gore cynically selecting a virtual and then actual Republican for his running mate? How about the deliberate refusal to fight Katherine Harris and her ChoicePoint assisted disenfranchisement of ex-felons, a majority of whom were black? How about the extra burden Gore had to carry?

[Whiskeytide]

60. Moose v Squirrel CAGE FIGHT!!!!!!!!! n/t

[RhodeIslandOne]

71. Back to Jackass Radicals with you! n/m

[ismnotwasm]

72. .

[stevenleser]

76. What pearls of JPR wisdom did I miss here. LMAO

[betsuni]

78. A long shopping list of all the usual Hillary sins.

Like a condensed version of JPR. First, it wasn't Comey or Russians or the media or voter suppression or anything else, it's all Hillary, we are assured. Benghazi, making Libya a haven for ISIS, Wall St., Iraq War thing vote, some other votes, corporatist, emails, etc.

Then a photo: OMG HILLARY HUGGED G.W. BUSH at his mother's funeral, WARMONGER. Something about Bill, I think, and then I lost interest.

[johnp3907]

73. You typed all that and it'll be gone forever in a moment.

[Glamrock]

77. Shouldn't be a problem

considering a variation of this post is put up seemingly every other day.

[ALBliberal]

79. Again? Really?

None of you who keep throwing this crap out about Bernie and third parties can also in the same breath... blame Russian interference. Russia elected Trump.... even if some voted third party or stayed home butt hurt about Bernie. Clinton would be president if not for Russia. Quit posting this divisive stuff.

[still_one]

82. The OP was very specific who it was referring, Jill Stein, Sarandon, and those who did not NOT

Last edited Sat Oct 14, 2017, 08:10 AM - Edit history (1)

support the Democratic nominee

Senator Sanders SUPPORTED THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE, and told his supporters to do likewise, so perphaps your comments are more applicable to those other threads

[ALBliberal]

89. Maybe I misunderstood

[still_one]

90. I was only referring to those who supported the third party. I get very frustrated when trump

tries to eliminate any positive legislation the Democrats have done, and as Noam Chomsky and other progressives have stated those progressive who didn't recognize the danger after the Democratic nominee was nominee mated made a bad mistake

[aikoaiko]

80. Which big lie are we talking about now?

[still_one]

83. The LIE from those who refused to vote for the Democratic nominee that there was no difference

[aikoaiko]

97. to finish your sentence...no difference in parties and candidates, I assume.

yes?

[still_one]

98. Yes, thank you

[shanny]

81. Horse feathers.

Enough already.

[still_one]

85. The lie that there is no difference no difference between republicans and Democrats. Once the

Democratic nominee was selected, anyone who identified as a progressive who willfully refused to vote for the Democratic nominee against the racist, bigot, sexist, is a fraud, and no progressive

[still_one]

87. Your justification of the Jill Steins is pretty damn insulting. Gee, there is no difference, really

The Supreme Court wasn't a reason to vote for Hillary. Oh wait, who appointed justice Ginsburg again

Civil rights, workers rights, women's rights and a hundred other issues, and you still defend those who refused to vote for the Democratic nominee

BS

[Cary]

94. + 1,000,000,000

And then some.

[UCmeNdc]

92. Jill Stein lied. Hillary Clinton would never do the things Trump has done. Never.

Last edited Sat Oct 14, 2017, 09:48 AM - Edit history (2)

Hillary Clinton and the Democratic party would be leading the United States forward. Climate Change, Race relationship, foreign affairs, environmental issues, etc. would be far better addressed and led under a President Hillary Clinton than a President Trump.


There is a big, bigly, gigantic, difference between Democratic Party candidates than the Republican Party Candidates. Voting third party if you support mostly Democratic Party position on issues over the GOP positions is only going to result in a Republican led government. Therefore, your positions you believe in will never see the light of day.

[still_one]

93. It is so obvious. Thank you

[KPN]

100. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Let's see ... the Senate, the House, the White House, 34 out of 50 Governors, both legislative chambers in 33 of 50 States, all three/complete control of 26 States -- Republican.

Get real and stop dividing.

[nolabels]

101. Yea, but the people who followed and or listened actually had their own issues too

You cannot win a fool's heart if you not willing to tell the big lie. Hillary had that problem while running. It's actually a virtue and we should be proud to have voted for it for showing it. The day of reckoning is when we have to become honest because there is no other way go

Capitalism's biggest enemy is when the truth comes out that we only can share this earth and nobody living today is going to be able take anything with them when the leave.

If you are not able to stop blaming other people for the problems you see then how will you ever solve them?

[YOHABLO]

102. We do not all agree with your assumptions.

[JHan]

104. K&R

[jimlup]

105. Never forget that if we sow the seeds of discord among ourselves

we are ignoring our true enemy - That is a very dangerous strategy and any student of history realizes that.

[VermontKevin]

107. What if many of us don't include Stein and Sarandon apologists among "ourselves?'

What if there are many enemies?

[jimlup]

112. If you think Susan Sarandon is our "enemy"

you'd better check your back. She's an idiot who didn't see the reality of 2016, not our enemy.

[Wibly]

106. Go ahead, alienate people

Posts like this demonstrate the Achilles heel of the poster and those Democrats who think this way. You will not defeat Trump by alienating those people who support the Greens or outspoken activists like Sarandon.
Closing ranks is what caused so many potential Democrat voters to either stay home or vote for third party candidates.
As for the "big lie", that's not what Stein, Sarandon and others did. They were warning the Democrats that unless that open the door and demonstrate they are able to listen to and hear dissent within their own ranks, then they are doomed to lose. The Democratic Party basically shut down Sanders, alienated anyone with an opinion that differed from the established line of reason (which was very evident on DU), and caused their own defeat.
Until the Dems can own their own role in the sad defeat in the last general election, they will be doomed to another defeat in the next one.
I hope like H that people within the Dem party who agree with the meme being pushed by this poster soon wake up, or the world will end up with even more Donald Trump.

[still_one]

113. Damn those establishment ideas, social security, medicare, civil rights, workers rights, women's

rights, the environment, etc etc etc,

Interesting how some conveniently ignore the fact that a centrist Democrat pushed through medicare, the civil rights act. Justice Ginsberg was appointed by a centrist Democrat, and establishment Democrats pushed the Lilly Ledbetter Act, gay rights, Iran nuclear deal, environmental goals, and on and on, but the same false memo that there is no meaningful difference still gets pushed by the likes of the Steins, Sarandons and other purveyors of false equivalences and lies