Split the country in two and be done with it

[doodsaq]

Rightwingers can have the entire South. In a few decades it'll be barely livable due to global warming, but since they don't believe in it, we can easily convince them to move. Unfortunately they won't be able to easily migrate north later because of the wall they would likely end up building to protect their sacred society from liberals.

They can stew in their own shit -- i.e. the fundamentalist, "small government" utopia they've always dreamed of.

[democratisphere]

1. Agreed. I believe this country should be broken up into as many as

4 to 6 countries. Our current Master Country is to big and too diverse to exist as one. The United States is no longer and never will be "United".

[Ezior]

5. Russia is winning

It's what they want. Divided States of America.

It's sad, but I see why you no longer want to live in a nation with "some" other US citizens.

[DrDan]

11. what "they" want? Sounds to me like some here want it.

[Thor_MN]

12. Exactly. Russia is just one part of what used to be the Soviet Union...

But then it collapsed and broke up. They would like to see the same thing happen to the United States.

Cutting loose the southern states that are economically challenged would be like charter schools taking only the best students. Per capita stats would go up if we excised the southern red states, but would we be truly better?

[Drahthaardogs]

131. Yes. We would be better.

I really believe we would. It's like having a toxic family member, say an alcoholic move out. You feel sorry, you worry, you miss them, but overall the house is a better place to live with them and their addiction elsewhere.

[Corvo Bianco]

153. Except the "alcoholic sister" is oppressing/enslaving

People. No.

[CanonRay]

29. Yes, they are winning

but I no longer see a path to reconciliation. We are divided beyond repair, IMHO.

[Irish_Dem]

58. The GOP has been dividing us for decades. It is what they want.

A way to increase their power and wealth.

[Ken Burch]

132. I don't want the country to break up, but we really, really REALLY need to get out of the habit

of looking at EVERYTHING in terms of "what does Russia(or China or whichever country) get out of this".

We can't let every national decision be about geopolitics, for God(s) sakes.

[lagomorph777]

47. Easy to say if you live in the North.

I say we offer unlimited free beer and NASCAR on the Monday before each election.

[democratisphere]

63. Think that will soften them up to vote for a more progressive positive

government. If everyone thought like Dale Earnhardt Jr., I would agree.

[lagomorph777]

103. I call it the Southern Hangover Strategy.

Voter suppression by ethanol.

[fleur-de-lisa]

90. Okay, that made me laugh!

I live in Louisiana and I agree.

Throw in free, unlimited hard liquor and some free country/western concerts after NASCAR, and you might have a winning strategy.

Of course, southern city-dwellers will still vote, but they tend to be Democrats anyway.

How do we make this happen? Where's Soros?

[radical noodle]

57. I've been hearing this from right wingers for years

Please don't tell me this is coming from Democratic Underground too.

[democratisphere]

61. This country is too large to manage. Government is in total gridlock

and accomplishing nothing positive for most of the people. Wall Street creatures have taken over and are prepared to add trillions to the national debt so the wealthiest can have even more. Insanity rules each day and it only gets worse minute by minute. Smaller countries with far fewer layers of government would be more efficient and would reduce costs.
.

[moda253]

164. Government was never imagined to be "Efficient"

[peggysue2]

101. No, No & No

This is exactly what our enemies want: a fractured country. Calls for succession are counterproductive and pushing in that direction would be a self-inflicted wound. Suicidal, in fact.

Yes, there is division and a gnashing of teeth. That's what happens in a diverse, open, democratic society. The things that bind us are values and principles; they're still there despite the naysayers' chorus, despite the whack jobs trying to drown out everyone else's voice.

Yes, this is a difficult, frustrating period but it will turn around.

As far as calling for any region to leave or say 'adios?'

One Civil War is enough, thank you very much.

[The Wielding Truth]

152. But who will be in charge of the nukes?

[Orsino]

2. So dissolve the Union and let self-deportation handle the problem?

"Just form some new countries" is about ashelpful as the wingnuts' secession fantasies.

[pangaia]

6. THAT is what Putin wants!

[uponit7771]

3. This is what the Russians want, screw them and their overtly obvious trolls

[TheFrenchRazor]

124. i don't check w/ russia before i decide what to think. nt

[Luciferous]

4. Sounds good to me! I've been living down south now for almost 2 years and as far as I'm concerned

the Republicans can have it. The only positive moving here for me was the weather, but I would rather shovel snow than deal with right wing nutters.

[DrDan]

9. roads northward are open . . . I, for one, would appreciate a few moving out of my state

[Luciferous]

10. My husband has a contract that is up in a couple of months and we will be going back up north.

Last edited Wed Oct 25, 2017, 09:28 AM - Edit history (1)

Wanted to edit to say maybe I'm painting with a broad brush here, but my experience living in the south has been pretty negative. There is an attitude here of "I got mine, screw everyone else." I've listened to people complaining about how "the blacks" don't do anything, how women shouldn't have abortions, how a soldier with PTSD who committed suicide is going to hell. I've never seen so much garbage on the side of the road or so many stray dogs running around. Maybe it's just this area, but I am not impressed at all. I know there are right wing nutters up north as well, but it just seems to be more pervasive here. I have a young son that I don't want growing up thinking that this behavior is normal or acceptable.

[AJT]

18. Well, don't come up here to Wisconsin, it's run by the rightest of the right.

I am hoping to leave here in a few years.

[Luciferous]

19. Ha, I grew up in Paul Ryan's district! We are thinking at the very least

a progressive city in a red state. We lived in Minneapolis, I wouldn't mind going back there. My husband would like to back to Wisconsin to be closer to family but with Walker and the Kochs systematically destroying things there I told him no.

[Blue_true]

33. What southern state do you live in?

I am a southerner and live in the south now. My area is republican, but slowly becoming purple. I live in north central Florida. A word of advice, the best southern cities are university towns or coastal town, the in lands and non college towns tend to be backward. Around where I live, you can't beat Gainesville Florida, or Tallahassee Florida. Orlando is great and progressive, as is Tampa.

[Luciferous]

107. I live in MS, right outside of Memphis. Thanks for

the recommendations!

[Dorian Gray]

129. Near Oxford?

That's about as progressive as Mississippi gets.

[Luciferous]

148. No, DeSoto County

[Demsrule86]

28. I have hear similar things in Ohio. It is a mindset. I was fixing my

car and one was spouting off the day before yesterday.

[radical noodle]

59. Don't know what part of the south you're in

but it's not that bad in my part of the south. Perhaps you should seek out other Dems. They are here, you know. Look around.

[MarvinGardens]

67. I live in the Atlanta suburbs.

It's nothing like the area you describe.

[Doodley]

147. Me too, and I agree.

[obamanut2012]

93. Please, some of the most racist areas are in the Rust Belt and the midwest

Thus Nazis in Cville were from Ohio, Indiana, Oregon. Not Cville, which literally votes 75%+ blue most elections.

Your broad brush is bigotry.

[bdamomma]

127. Good don't subject your son

to this crap, go North. Every state has its good and bad points but go North.

[Luciferous]

149. My son who has recently told me he's gay- yeah, no way I'm making him grow up

in an environment like this!

[bdamomma]

159. LGBT people

are being treated unfairly among many other diverse groups of people.

[bluepen]

35. +1,000,000 to that.

[forgotmylogin]

42. Can we be called "South Canada"?

It's fun to joke and speculate on something like this, but it should never happen except under the direst of circumstances.

You know we'd be having to travel-ban the Nazi terrorists from South North-America. It'd be Israel/Palestine.

[obamanut2012]

92. Then leave -- we'd prefer less people down here telling us how we suck

And why our home sucks.

I am sick of this garbage.

[FSogol]

7. Unrec.

[DrDan]

8. ahhh - more bigotry/prejudice directed toward southern states

Many of us here live in the south voluntarily. Many of us here also work for and contribute to Dem candidates.

How about recognizing that there is political diversity in ALL 50 states. I am sure there are some in your heaven that would also not welcome the division you seek.

[Orrex]

22. My prejudice toward the south is fully justified, thank you

You southerners get credit for being the most racist of the racist, but I'm here to tell you that rural western Pennsylvania is every bit as bigoted and racist as any caricature of the Jim Crow south that anyone has ever seen.

When are my neighbors going to steal the spotlight and get the racist recognition that they deserve?

Yinz are nothin but a buncha wannabe posers!

[Blue_true]

36. I am a southerner, the south is a mixed bag.

Yes, there are still vile racists and people that are not racists but don't confront racists. On the other side, I see more interacial children than I see anywhere in the country and I see young people of all races who are real friends, like best buddy friends. To broad brush a region is silly. But having said that, I favor splitting the country up for general social policy and fiscal policy reasons.

[GulfCoast66]

154. Got to disagree

Louisiana native here with lots of racist in the family. What I heard from my inlaws in Indiana, where ironically there were no African Americans made me blanch it was so racist.

[Initech]

13. With the right wing and their belief in not having a government...

Their country would barely last a year before they come crawling back.

[sl8]

14. Imagine being the surveyor that gets the job of laying out THAT border:

http://brilliantmaps.com/2016-county-election-map/

[yallerdawg]

16. There's a big chunk of blue...

in the Heart of Dixie.

Looks like an awful lot of the US has a Democratic underground!

[sarisataka]

21. Interesting...

If it wasn't for NYC, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and both Carolinas would be "bluer" than New York.

Why do we write off the South again?

[Orrex]

24. Well, population is the deciding factor, no?

I have a hardcore liberal friend in Oklahoma. If not for all the other residents of the state, OK would be bluer than toilet water.

[sarisataka]

25. So it is too hard?

"Why bother we won't win anyway"
Although we only lost NC by 3%. MS and SC were both 40% for HRC.
It seems to me those states could be turned with some effort.

Too hard? Or is it just prejudice that we don't want to try? After all, if we can turn some Southern states blue, who will we make fun of?

[Orrex]

26. No, but that kind of has nothing to do with the OP or your previous reply

At least, not the way you phrased it.

If we can swing a state into the blue column, then by all means we should do so, but quibbling about which red state is almost as blue as New York minus NYC seems kind of pointless to me.

[sarisataka]

32. The point is

That many states, mostly Southern, are written off as unwinnable because they are full of racist Republicans. Other states are hailed as solid blue but really are quite red except for a single high population center.

To relate that to the bigoted OP, it would make more sense give right-wingers NY and PA, carving out NYC and Philadelphia, than to abandon the South.

[Orrex]

41. Well, Pennsylvania is certainly chock full of racist Republicans....

Aside from Pittsburgh and Philadelphia and sometimes Scranton. Idiot racist fuckheads from one border to the other. As famously noticed, it's Pitt on one side, Philly on the other, and West Virginia in between.

But it's still about population distribution. If New York State is strongly Democratic simply because of the huge population of NYC, then that's what we must address.

If North Carolina is weakly Republican because of the large population of Republicans (rural and otherwise), then that's what we must address.

It remains pointless to compare subdivisions of states to try to figure out which subdivisions are almost more Democratic.

[mac56]

85. Pennsyltucky

I've heard it called.

[HughBeaumont]

17. Oklahoma and WV - not ONE blue county.

SAD.

Remind me why I need to take Republican voters seriously again?

[Blue_true]

38. If the country is split up, people will have to move to the country they prefer.

I have written about that here. Four countries seem best where the far left and far right would have their own country and the other two countries would be center-left and center-right. Kids that are under 20 when the countries spilt up would have a one time chance up to 28 years old to choose another country than the first one they chose or their parents chose.

[janterry]

78. That map is really sobering

We just have to do better

[Spider Jerusalem]

102. Not so much, Clinton won the popular vote by three million

and won most urban areas. All that red on the map? By and large the less-populated areas. Land doesn't vote.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

15. Yes, I agree...

...with anyone who read this and thought, “That is a terrible, terrible idea.”

[LonePirate]

20. Hmmm... 52 posts and is advocating secession

DUers can draw their own conclusions.

[BannonsLiver]

46. "Da" is my conclusion.

The OP might as well have been written in cyrillic.

[PJMcK]

49. I had the same thought

Well said, LonePirate!

[GoCubsGo]

68. Was thinking the same exact thing...

[Orrex]

87. In a drive-by, at that.

Hmm...

[Vogon_Glory]

88. Dont be too hard on him. S/hes doing his bit for the red, white, and blue

It’s just that that shade of blue looks just a tad—off.

[GulfCoast66]

23. Another Southern attack...

How you feel about Wisconsin and Ohio?

Stereotyping is generally not something Liberals support.

We southern liberals get tired of this condescending shit.

[procon]

83. No need to stereotype anything, just look at the demographics.

If you aren't one of them, southern liberals shouldn't be defending the mess that Republicans have fostered in Southern states. That's not condescending, it's a fact, it's there and can't be denied. Keep fighting the good fight, that's all any Dem can do, but gawds, stop giving the damned Republicans defensive cover.

[Demsrule86]

27. Absolutely not...

[Blaukraut]

30. Americans are deeply divided, but it's not a 50-50 split

Splitting the country up geographically won't work anyway because we are ideologically divided by urban/suburban/rural areas. How would you accomplish a peaceful divorce that way?
That said, just because "the Russians want us to do it" doesn't mean it's a terrible idea. It's just not really feasible without some serious planning and discussion. And ironically, after a serious discussion and planning phase, we all might end up deciding that maybe we need to work things out before signing the divorce papers because that would be the easier option.

[PJMcK]

51. You would need a Constitutional Convention

There is no mechanism in the U.S. Constitution to dissolve the Union. Dividing the country would take a political act so huge and grievous that it is inconceivable that it could be accomplished by this politically and culturally divided country.

I've come to the conclusion that we just have to suck it up and try to fix things one problem at a time.

[Greybnk48]

31. Exactly what Putin and the Russians want.

Divide and conquer. Brexit, Catalonia, any spit in the mega-mighty USA would be a dream come true! Create or play on people's differences and split them up! Much easier to overwhelm when the time comes.

Don't be a sucker for the Russian plan, split the USA like they did the UK and are trying to do with Spain; or the Koch brothers plan, e.g., fractured Wisconsin.

[Progressive dog]

34. Too bad you weren't around 156 years ago.

Imagine how much better the world would be if Lincoln had just let the south keep their slaves. LOL

[Blue_true]

39. That is not what the poster advocated.

It seems the OP wants more of an social policy and fiscal split.

[Progressive dog]

121. Nations do not break up because of social policy.

The founding fathers advocated unity of the states because of the observation of the wars fought between the various European states. They did not want to be surrounded by states that could turn against them. Breaking up the USA would be a criminal act against the concept of democracy.
The southern states still claim the Civil War was about "state's rights." There are lots of reasons the authoritarians and haters can give for breaking up democracies.

[Irish_Dem]

60. Could slaves have been freed without the civil war? Was there another way to do it?

I sometimes wonder if Lincoln should have let the South secede but found
another way to offer freedom to all people.

[Progressive dog]

120. Exactly what ideas would you have for Lincoln?

The point is not just slavery, it is right and wrong. They tried to steal government installations. They tried to impose their slave regime on loyal American citizens. Then they attacked American forces at Fort Sumter. Lincoln had a responsibility to not allow a disgruntled and hateful minority to impose their anti-democratic beliefs by armed force.

[Irish_Dem]

125. Yes you are right. He had no choice. I suppose if the south had won the war

they could have formed their own country. Like the American colonies did when the fought the Revolutionary War.

But the southern rural economy was very much tied to the northern industry as I recall from American history classes. Could the south have survived on its own? And would the plantation system collapse in fairly short order?

In some ways it feels like we continue to fight a civil war.

[Progressive dog]

134. The south thought that they had formed their own country.

They had a Constitution and a government. They thought that the British would support them because the south supplied the cotton that British factories needed.
The southern slave owners intended to keep their slaves and many of their "cultural" descendants have tried to prevent the people who look like the former slaves from ever becoming equal to them. Giving the proponents of that culture of inequality any way to realize their dream is unacceptable.

[Irish_Dem]

139. None of it worked out for them. The south never recovered economically from the Civil War.

And their other dreams died too. They hold on so tightly to those failed dreams.
I agree, unacceptable in every way.

Thank you for the discussion and history reminders.
I had forgotten the South hoped to align with the British.

[haele]

166. The south was going economically downhill just before the Civil War...

And that was due to their income inequality and reliance on Slavery.
The political elite were not going to give up their slaves, and even though there was the potential for robust manufacturing in the South, the use of slaves to provide cheap labor over hiring free workers tended to stifle manufacturing innovations that could have decreased the reliance on subsistence farming. The majority of the people who settled in the South during the 1840's and 1850's either stayed where they were or went out of the South - to the North or out to the frontier territories instead of Southern cities because there was very little opportunity for most free worker in the South if an employer could just "rent" a slave whenever s/he needed one instead of hiring someone outside the family full time and investing in their advancement to improve the business.

This was one of the keys to the success of Northern businesses. Northern businesses tended to look at action within a market of other businesses as a means of maintaining profit and growth. If a business failed - you picked yourself up and started off somewhere else. A typical Northerner had the ability to start out at the ground floor anywhere, learn a trade, and then strike out on his or her own to compete with anyone and everyone else.
However, antebellum Southern businesses - primarily the plantations, commodity traders and transportation organizations, and most their downstream and upstream chains - tended to focus on maintaining costs as a means of profits; their businesses were not so much part of a larger market economy one could easily enter or exit; businesses were seen as part of a family net worth that needed to be maintained.
And if a potential worker didn't already have a connection to be able to walk into a skilled or semi-skilled position - or the funds to start one's own business, s/he was competing with slaves that were made available to work for a small rental fee or for barter by a slave-owner looking to make some extra money. A business owner didn't have to worry about treating a slave with dignity or screwing him/her over - or the slave making any trouble. S/he only had to worry about the person the slave was rented from.

Unlike in the North or out in the Territories, there were few "walking in on the ground floor" positions available to an average immigrant or economic migrant looking for work anywhere in the South. If the South had won the Civil War and was able to "maintain it's particular institution", Southern economy was still going to take a severe nosedive within a couple decades that it wouldn't be able to pull out of until it finally got rid of slavery and started opening up its workforce. However, I shudder to think of how the South would handle all the people that were enslaved prior to that point...I suspect it would have been by sending any non-white "back to Africa" or with a KKK-like organization on steroids.

Haele

[Irish_Dem]

167. Haele, thank you so much. Fascinating. A couple more questions if you don't mind.

You must be an economist/history major! One of my degrees is in Political Science, but I also took a lot of history courses, and a few Econ, micro and macro. But my eyes blurred over looking at supply curves.
That was all a long time ago.

I also thought if the South had won the war, or never started it, their way of life was not sustainable on many levels. But I didn't remember the economic specifics.

So essentially the South consisted of tightly controlled wealthy plantation (family) owners and slaves. No room for middle class workers, who could not compete with free labor. So even if the South had won the war or it was a tie of sorts, their way of live would soon be over anyway. They fought so hard to maintain a life that was simply not sustainable, of course on a moral, human rights level, as well as economic. I can clearly see how it would have played out and I am sickened to think about it.

My questions:

In a way, isn't the currently economic reality in some ways like the Southern plantation economy? We have more and more wealth tightly held by a few families. Work is relegated to contract workers here and overseas. Shrinking middle class. More of an oligarchy, rule by the rich. Putin has taken this to an extreme. Pulled a lot of money out of the Russian economy, he is worth a reported $600 Billion. The US oligarchs seem to want this kind of wealth as well.

And then won't the robotic revolution be the final blow?
Many put out of work by cheap labor provided by robots? So we will have a few wealthy families supported by low cost robots. The same kind of Southern economic system as you described. Without the horrendous moral wrong of humans owning other humans. Of course the robots may revolt if I remember my Asimov correctly, but that is whole other question.

And lastly then are we headed to basic guaranteed income to endure the survival of most of us?

Mary

[haele]

168. Yup, grew up with History Teachers...

Civil War History is always a good for a "what if" discussion - Winston Churchill himself wrote a "what if/what if" - "If the North won the Civil War" from the viewpoint of a Confederate win!
What most writers like to speculate from is the socio-political point of view; very few actually consider the economic reality of the period. I suspect because the "romance" of the feudalistic plantation aristocracy - vs. the hard-nosed industrial technocrats with "ethnic groups in peril" makes for a better story arc to novelists.

The post-War era had more than a few serious recessions triggered by various issues both from social and fiscal strains that would have been worse under a plantation economy with a limited middle class.

As for the points you raised -

For background -
The Plantation economy never really left in some areas - primarily the more rural areas all over the country - West Coast, Northeast, Midwest, Southeast...didn't matter if the state is Red or Blue.
I've been in enough small towns or county seats where there were only one or two major landowners or businesses basically ran the town or unincorporated area and determined which families would succeed and which had to beg for respect and work.
Didn't matter who voted for what, or who made up the town or local district council, Grange, or any of the local "Good Works/Philanthropy Clubs" (Lions, Rotary, Eagles, etc.) it was always "The Founding Families" or "The Big Employer" who ran the region, down to the level of what churches would be accepted, a school opening, who got to open up a new business at the main intersection, or if a smaller manufacturing company could expand - or even worse, another business could come in if it was unionized.
Rural life tends to be very localized, which tends to drive it "little c" conservative - people will do things a certain way because that's the way it's done, no matter if they're politically Liberal or Conservative, Republican or Democrat. Conformity to the rules is a requirement for "everyone to get along", and change is something to be avoided.

An Urban area is a collection of different communities; people are always moving around - new people with different ideas arriving and leaving. There tends to be a diversity of social, cultural, and economic structures that co-exist side by side.
Urban life a large complex eco-system, with many critical links that exist below an individual's social awareness. What happens in one part of town to one community will effect the services and resources in the community you live in, no matter if you're rich or poor. Unlike in rural areas, one can't just "wall yourself in" and put land and/or sycophants between one and the rest of the community.
Occasionally, there might be an organization in an urban area that "takes control" (i.e., Tammany Hall), but with the constant movement within the various communities that comprise an urban area, there is an imperative that a more democratic, more flexible, liberal political approach to policies that needs to happen.
A community is only as strong as it's weakest links, and the more links present, the more awareness and respect of what the strain on the community is required to ensure it doesn't fall apart into chaos. Conformity cannot be sustained, communication of the need for change is critical for a community to be able to go forward with the least amount of stress and pain to everyone.

Background laid, now back on the comments.
Are we in a Plantation economy? Well, sort of. We are more in a transitional economy, which creates big gaping holes that a Keynesian style social net should technically stretch across until businesses and the public sector come to grips with population

In a Socio-economic sense, I think your observations stem from two related forces that have emerged recently that most Americans still don't really have a good grasp of - the Internet, which has shattered the historic divide between the Urban and the Rural, making the entire world much smaller, and subsequent the Virtual Balkanization of overall society, which allows for weaknesses within the traditional interpersonal framework as citizens, following the nature of the herd animals we evolved from, remove and re-group themselves into like minded organizations.

I'll get back this later.

Haele

[Irish_Dem]

169. Here I thought I was unique in my questions, in good company with Churchill.

With history teachers as parents, you must have had fabulous dinner time discussions!

Were the post war recessions mainly in the south or north? or both?

I also thought the poor economic conditions of the South were related to losing the Civil War, but they were headed in that direction no matter what.

I have lived in several small towns in the North. Exactly as you describe, to a T.
Conservative, inbred, family wealth. Insular and narrow minded. Never thought about it along the lines of a plantation mentality, but makes sense. I would think that in the history of the world, the plantation economy has been the norm. With humans owning other humans to provide labor. Today, women are considered property in some parts of the world. Their fathers sell them off as brides in arranged marriages. They provide offspring and home labor for free or in exchange for room and board.

I have found urban areas also to be like you describe, more liberal, educated, vibrant, accepting. I especially like areas around a university. I had no thought about it from an economic viewpoint.

In terms of the social net, the current ruling class just allows the basic necessities to enable the workforce to exist. So I don't think it is a matter of them catching up to fill in the holes as you suggest. In terms of the current plantation economy, it appears the oligarchs, or ruling class do not care about the general population. Providing health care, clean environment, affordable education is not important to them.

Yes I agree with your assessment of the internet impact upon society. It is breaking down barriers, upending some traditional divides, at the same time causing further splintering into factions. Human evolution involved the formation of groups to provide safety and other functions. So we are wired to splinter into groups perhaps.

If I could prevail upon you to address the robot question. I am serious about it. Even low level robots that will stock shelves at Walmart must have some impact upon the economy. As robotics becomes a more sophisticated industry, the impact will become more clear. So do we evolve into a planation economy with the 1% and the robots. No one else needed.

Once the oligarchs have all the money they do not need consumers to buy anything, they don't need a stock market or corporations. They have all the wealth. Hence they do not need to ensure the survival of most of the population?

Mary

[Greybnk48]

86. Are you confused by what I said?

Or do you not want me to say it. Rachel Maddow devoted a large portion of a recent show mapping out this strategy by Putin and I think it's accurate.

Exactly where in my post do I support slavery, comrade P-dog?

[Progressive dog]

118. I think you are confused as to what you said

Last edited Wed Oct 25, 2017, 08:14 PM - Edit history (1)

or you are just trying to hide from the implications of what you said.
I don't think think that a southern government run by white nationalists is a good idea. I don't think that giving part of the nation to any anti-democratic group should be tolerated, condoned, or even become a topic of discussion.
Actually you are just confused about who I replied to, and it wasn't you.

[LexVegas]

37. ...

[snooper2]

40. this is stupid...will never happen...how is the weather where you are?

[rateyes]

43. This Southerner says

Fuck that!

[moose65]

54. Amen!

We need a "like" button!

[Cobalt Violet]

44. I love this idea.

Really wish it would happen.

[quickesst]

45. It's easy...

...to point over the fence when you're standing on a pile of shit in your own yard. See the map in this thread to see just how high that pile is.
it's just really fucking sad how easily you would write off a huge population of liberals which include people of color and LGBT community as mere collateral damage in your quest for the progressive liberal utopia you demand. But, if your ideal ever comes to fruition, don't vworry about us. We'll muddle through somehow.

[PJMcK]

50. I think there was a war about breaking up the Union

The secessionists lost, if I recall correctly.

Your idea is not very well thought out, doodsaq. There is no mechanism to dissolve the United States. The concept of mass migrations both north and south seems particularly ill-considered.

[SQUEE]

75. The concept of mass migrations both north and south seems particularly ill-considered.

An understatement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India

"It is estimated up to a million people were killed during the Partition, with the Punjab suffering the highest death toll - Imperial War Museum, London"

http://partitionof1947.blogspot.com/

[doc03]

52. Let them have the north I would rather live in the south if they

weren't there.

[DrDan]

65. are you referring to us Southerners? You would prefer we not be here?

[doc03]

111. Let the Trumpsters move north and we can move south. nt

[moose65]

53. Wow. Just wow.

Yeah, those states like Utah and Idaho are in the South, right?

I've had to put up with this South-bashing my entire life. True, we have our share of asshole racist Republicans, but it's the same all over. Are you willing to write off the large African-American population that currently resides in the South? Mississippi is 37% African- American. There is a huge Hispanic/Latino population in the South. In fact, the South is much more diverse than other so-called liberal areas, like Wisconsin or Vermont. Virginia has been blue for three straight presidential cycles. Florida is swingy. North Carolina has a lot of liberal residents in the Triangle, the Triad, and Charlotte. My family is rural and are 100% die-hard Democrats. You want to throw us out, too? This kind of thing is divisive.

[DrDan]

66. well said

[radical noodle]

55. Uh... NO!

There are plenty of real Democrats living in the south.

[snowybirdie]

56. Naw

What about those of us who visit the South in cold weather for our health? We like using the south🌴

[LanternWaste]

62. It worked out great for India and Pakistan...

It worked out great for India, Bangladesh and Pakistan, as well as Croatia and Serbia; Sudan and South Sudan; .

It's fun to take complex social forces and concerns and distill them into simplistic geographical regions... invalid and irrational, but very, very fun to pretend political differences can be both separated and hence, solved by mere imaginary lines on a map, regardless of what you have in your own stew.

[Golden Raisin]

64. Deep racism can be found in ALL parts

of the country. It is the cancer that is destroying this country from within. It's always been there, but under Trump it's been allowed and encouraged to bubble up to the surface and daylight. The logistics of splitting the country would be nightmarish but I've never seen the divisions so great (and I lived through the Vietnam Era). It would be interesting to see the country which enshrines Jesus and Christianity as State Religion, NASCAR, NRA, free-carry weapons, no abortion, no Federal Government (interesting to see when the bills for upkeep of roads, bridges, natural disaster relief, etc. come due), no Gays, no Blacks, no Browns, no Jews, no Muslims, no Hispanics, etc. etc. etc. I strongly suspect there are plenty of people who would be fine with bringing back slavery.

[hurl]

69. Just like a Rebel

Confederates who wanted to split our country were anti-American too.

[maxsolomon]

70. Good Job

Добро пожаловать в демократическое подполье, товарищ!

[denbot]

71. Da Comrade..

Or are you Putin me on?

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

72. Riiiight. nt

[0rganism]

73. stop. just stop.

seriously, there are so many problems with proposals like this, i wish people would just drop it completely. forever.

first and foremost, our ideological divisions are not easily sorted on geographic lines. this is far more urban-vs-rural than North-vs-South or coast-vs-interior.

who is going to pay for all the liberals in Atlanta to relocate to Seattle, or wherever?

no, this is just silly. please stop.

[MarvinGardens]

74. If you are serious, I disagree.

As mentioned upthread, the divide is rural/urban, and not so much regional as you suppose. Have you ever visited a larger city in the South?

[Hoyt]

76. The only problem I see is that the transition would take decades and during that

time, conditions for everyone would be much worse than they are right now. 200 years from now -- if the new "countries" don't annihilate each other -- it might be worth it.

Personally, we might be better off if we had stayed with Britain -- slavery likely would have ended sooner, we'd likely have decent healthcare for everyone, Trump would not be Prez, etc.

[B2G]

77. But it was treason when the Confederacy wanted to do that.

[SCantiGOP]

79. Thanks for a highly divisive and pretty idiotic OP

You do know other members can trash your thread and block you?

[Ilsa]

80. Fuck that. No more messages from Moscow. nt

[bdamomma]

135. Yea they have infiltrated

us enough, then you think of those traitors who contributed to this filthy regime. Putin must be smirking to see us dismantling ourselves and having this POS in the highest office.

[TEB]

81. No then putin would win

[area51]

82. No.

People who post things like this love to forget decent people are also in the south. Barbara Jordan, Jim Hightower, Molly Ivins, Ann Richards, to name a few.

[CrispyQ]

84. That's not their vision & they won't accept that. They want it all.

They want to rid the entire country (world) of liberals & minorities & gays & uppity women & keep the whole thing for themselves. They honestly believe they are better than everyone & that God is on their side. And they are armed & they are mean.

[LunaSea]

89. Comrade Scrotodude is right!

Theres just not enough divisive south bashing on this board.
Can I get a Harrumph?


(yes, I am too lazy to add the sarcasm cartoon…)

[elehhhhna]

91. As a Texas liberal I would respectfully request that you fuck right off

[obamanut2012]

94. This Florida liberal +1

[MuseRider]

104. Simple and right to the point!

As a Kansas liberal I give you a big BRAVA!

[elehhhhna]

115. Thanks and good to see you here

[MuseRider]

116. :-)

I seem to fall into these kinds of threads. LOL. Glad you are here too.

[peggysue2]

108. Hahaha!

We obviously need more Texan liberals who get right to the nitty gritty.

Splitting the Union is a really dumb idea, counterproductive and merely feeds adversarial desires to fracture this country and the Western Alliance. That's what these cries for sucession are all about, many of which originate in . . . let's say 'foreign' countries.

We need to be smarter than this, call out propaganda for what it is: frigging lies.

[elehhhhna]

114. This is all Brexit Calexit bullshit

It should not be tolerated. Particularly not Democratic underground. The breaking up of the Soviet Union made incredible fortunes for a tremendous number of people, why not do the same to the United States of America? Am I insane or is this obvious ?

[peggysue2]

123. You are not . . .

insane. You're paying attention, which is what we all need to do. On the Brexit calamity, the numbers have flipped in favor of staying and/or walking the exit back. Don't think there's much chance of that but the Brits have begun to realize what a horrendous decision they made.

Think there are a number of reasons that Putin and his oligarchs want to flatten the playing field to their advantage, oil being a big one. Revenge a sneaky second. But yes, in the end it always comes down to money and power.

What we should never forgive are the American citizens who knowingly hopped on the train, supported a man totally unfit, unstable and in the pocket of a foreign government, thereby undermining their own country and institutions.

Never forget, never forgive. Anyone involved in this mess should forever more be considered a pariah. And frankly, have their asses put in jail.

[Hekate]

151. Spot on

It pisses me off no end. We need a new Alert category: Carrying Water for Putin

[Texasgal]

146. Sing it sista!

AGREED!!!

[ecstatic]

95. My idea (when I was really frustrated) was BLUE/RED ID cards that determine services, schools, taxes

healthcare, etc. Because splitting geographically would be too difficult. Anyway, our license plates, etc. would determine which society we belong to and therefore a RED cop could not stop me, and a RED president would have zero effect on my life. The only problem is, if the RED president creates WW3, we'd be experiencing the bomb drops as well. Or maybe defense and military could be non-partisan or united somehow.

[MuseRider]

96. The South this time

next time the Midwest then back to the South then back to the Midwest. Don't y'all in the lovely blue states have anything else to do? We are working here to move things toward the blue and quite frankly one of the biggest problems we have are people like you saying what you say. Either get in and help us or keep quiet please. We could actually use some help and money but only if you leave your high handed comments at home, we really don't think you are all that great either.

The Koch brothers learned what to do in my state and have been doing it for oh something like 30 years. Wanna help? Of course you don't so please just shut up with your pretentions that we are all just shit. The best Democrats I have ever known are the one's working in the red states because they actually have to work really hard and form some really tight organizations. The rest of you, I just don't know and right now am pleased that I don't.

PS I know it is not all of you but you all know these stupid threads come around every now and again and it is NOT HELPFUL!

[JHan]

97. Nope

[still_one]

98. Putin would approve

[BainsBane]

99. That won't solve a thing

There are as many divisions within the parties as between them.

[ehrnst]

100. I think you're forgetting about Idaho and Montana... (nt)

[MuseRider]

105. This looks like a hit and run but I would like to know

where you live that you can say these things about other parts of the country and feel good about it?

[DrDan]

109. I don't blame him/her for not responding - being uncovered as a bigot can do that to a person

[MuseRider]

110. True! n/t

[Hekate]

106. Screw that

Troll.

[Stinky The Clown]

112. What a brilliant idea!!!

St. Petersburg?

[DrDan]

117. Moscow Idaho, Moscow Maine, Moscow North Dakota, Moscow Minnesota, Moscow Wisconsin, Moscow Illinois

Moscow Indiana, Moscow Maine, Moscow Vermont, Moscow Rhode Island, Moscow Pennsylvania . . .

[GallopingGhost]

113. After the installation of Trump,

I spent some time looking up each state individually (the southern states in particular) and I was surprised to see how many dark blue counties there actually are.

We all know that this farce of an election was screwed with in every way imaginable.

Take Oregon. You immediately think blue, and you're right. But it's thanks to voters in Lane, Multnomah, Hood River, Clackamas and several other counties. Eastern Oregon is rural and blood red. So is Northern Cal outside of Humboldt, and northeastern Washington.

Like someone said, racist ignorants are everywhere.

[struggle4progress]

119. It would be simpler just to scrap the electoral college

[TheFrenchRazor]

122. i like it... haha. nt

[lunasun]

126. Putins big dream

[Dorian Gray]

128. Read the book

American War. Fictionalized account about a future Second American Civil War. Bleak and totally realistic.

[Tatiana]

130. Better yet, give Mexico back its territory.

Seriously, we fought a civil war over this already. Yes, they are backwards, in some respects, but we have to come up with a Southern Solution. The answer isn't just giving up. We find a way to win.

[bathroommonkey76]

133. Let's just go back to the places our ancestor's lived

and give the Native Americans their country back.

[oberliner]

137. Their country?

What does that even mean?

[bathroommonkey76]

138. It's pretty simple, oberliner.

[oberliner]

140. Their country?

What does that mean? The United States is whose country? This image you provided does nothing to clarify.

[bathroommonkey76]

141. The NATIVE AMERICANS COUNTRY!

"What does that mean?" Are you Rain Man? LOL

This country was the Native Americans before the whiteys came here and took it from them!

[oberliner]

142. There was no Native American country

The United States is not a Native American construct.

[bathroommonkey76]

143. Dude

get over it and toss it in another circle-jerk.

[oberliner]

144. I've just never heard of anyone seriously proposing that all immigrants leave the United States

If you were being serious, that is just really bizarre.

[bathroommonkey76]

145. And I have never heard of anyone seriously proposing

to turn the South turn into RWNJ funland- That is what the OP suggested, right?

Thanks, I take pride in my bizarre statements- I was just trying be as ridiculous as the OP.

[oberliner]

163. Gotcha

I didn't realize you were spoofing the OP. Point taken!

[oberliner]

136. Staggering irony in a post like this

Lincoln is rolling over in his grave.

[Thekaspervote]

150. If the country were split in 2 there would eventually be another war between the states

The south, not all, but much of it would not be able to sustain itself due to backward governing, zero progress and regression into a more poor rural economy. They would soon be looking to the north for help- with none coming Russia would be more than happy to intervene. They would sell land, resources, whatever to foreign concerns and their bitterness towards the progressive north would fester. Russia would be more than happy to help them take up arms against the north.

No, unfortunately they are the petulant child that constantly needs reigning in. We will have to continue to keep them in line and part of the US

[Hoyt]

156. Except right now, Federal government is about like red state's government.

Can't see CIC of the USA fighting red states, certainly with folks like Trump in office.

[GulfCoast66]

157. Posting divisive shit like this on your 52nd post

When you joined in the middle of the election season?

And after all these responses you do not come back?

How is the weather on the Volga?

[Raine]

158. NO, absolutely NO! nt

[doodsaq]

160. Woah. Calm down.

I am a very occasional visitor just venting frustrations with the right wing in this country -- like all of you. Sorry for my divisive post. I meant it to be a hyperbolic joke, but it didn't go across that way.

Move along, you can ignore my lame post.

p.s. The accusations of being a Russian bot/instigator are quite amusing. I suppose it's understandable but also a bit confusing -- I'm not aware of Russian trolls posing as liberals and attacking rightwingers.

[DrDan]

162. I'm not sure why you have the impression the RW "in this country" is a southern thing

Perhaps you could explain

[HAB911]

161. Texas welcomes the idea

https://conservativemove.com/

[L. Coyote]

165. Yes, YES, and steal all the public land, and DRILL BABY, DRILL, ....

and sell off everything to the Russian mob on the cheap, and take huge bribes in return.

God, I love this idea, straight from Trump's playbook.