Hey DU legal scholars: What's the difference between "conspiracy against the US" and "treason"

[FSogol]

Enquiring minds want to know!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. My best guess

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9768525

[kentuck]

2. One has seven letters and one has ten letters?

[Madam45for2923]

3. I tried to google your question but Google been taken over by trolls. So no serious answers

[FSogol]

6. Yeah, I saw the impeach Obama article summary.

[Madam45for2923]

8. GrrrRRRRrrr!!!

[Mrs. Overall]

4. I was just about to post the same question.

I am very curious as to the weight of the penalty as well.

[OliverQ]

5. Treason is aiding and abetting a foreign enemy that you're at war with.

This charge is intentionally concealing foreign money from the US government, which doesn't necessarily mean aiding and abetting a foreign enemy.

[FSogol]

9. Makes sense. Thanks. n/t

[marylandblue]

7. Treason is defined in the Constitution

As making was against the US or adhering to its enemies. Conspiracy is any secret plan of two or more people to commit a crime.

[Cracklin Charlie]

10. Can I ask a question?

Is the amount of money laundered an issue in what charge was brought?

Like, is laundering 25K the same charge as laundering 25M? Would this crime be charged the same?

[marylandblue]

13. Well think of this way

If you take a candy bar from the drug store is it the same crime as stealing a 50 karat diamond? Do you think the courts would look at those two thefts the same way?

[Cracklin Charlie]

16. I guess...no?

Sorry, but I really suck at the legal.

So, both crimes would be theft. Would it be correct to say that it is during the sentencing phase that the amount of theft would come into play?

Thank you for your patience.

[marylandblue]

17. Absolutely

If it's a small amount of money and you only did it once, that looks like a lapse in judgement and if you sound contrite you may not even do any jail time.

In Manafort's case, we have an ongoing pattern of criminal activity over many years that funded a lavish lifestyle and he took elaborate efforts to conceal. This is no mere lapse in judgement, it's a conscious decision to live a life of crime with full awareness of the consequences. If he gets a slap on the wrist then a lot of other people will be tempted to do the same thing, so the courts have to be harsh with that.

[RandomAccess]

11. If you read the indictment

here: https://www.justice.gov/file/1007271/download

The "Conspiracy" is to defraud the US of tax money (and the DOJ of the truth, I guess).

[jberryhill]

12. "conspiracy against the US" is a term of art

Federal crimes are crimes "against the US".

It is also a crime to engage in a conspiracy (just a fancy word for an agreement among more than one person) to commit a crime against the US, whatever that crime may be.

[grantcart]

15. Let me give you a concrete example, which might help

If you have, say a Press Secretary, who gets up and tells an obnoxious, irrelevant and idiotic story about drinking journalists to lay out lies of the massive tax give away that you are about to do, that would equal "conspiracy against the US".

If you have a Presidential candidate who through associates and family members negotiate with a foreign government who is attacking the US through cyber warfare so that they could win the election and monetize it to advance their commercial interests, that would equal "treason".

Sometimes its both

[onenote]

18. Here you go

It's the difference between conspiring to commit any offense against the United States that isn't treason and conspiring to commit treason.

For example, if you conspire with others to rob a bank in violation of federal law, you can be charged with Conspiracy against the United States.

Since the indictment makes clear exactly what offenses Manafort and Gates are accused of conspiring to commit (namely, failure to file certain financial reports and making false statements), one can rule out any link between the conspiracy against the US charge and "treason."

[malaise]

19. Yes indeed

great question