Laurence Tribe worried DEMS take bait fire Sessions & buh bye Mueller

[Madam45for2923]

Last edited Fri Nov 3, 2017, 01:42 PM - Edit history (2)

Exactly what I worried about yesterday in suggesting that Dems not take the bait but protect Mueller by holding off on Sessions!

Link to tweet

After Sessions is gone, a new acting AG fires Mueller. NEW AG FIRES MUELLER TOMORROW! WEEH!



The only reason I want Sessions to stay on is b/c he is recused from Trump/Russia investigations

[Madam45for2923]

1. No Sessions, No Mueller!

[bluepen]

2. Sessions is irrelevant in the process. He offers no protection

for Mueller.

Trump could ask Rosenstein at any minute to fire Mueller and if he refuses, Rosenstein is gone and Rachel Brand moves up. If she refuses, she’s gone, and the process continues. Trump won’t stop until the new acting Deputy AG fires Mueller.

Sessions is out of the picture.

[Madam45for2923]

5. New AG chosen by Donald would fire Mueller

[bluepen]

9. The point is Sessions provides no protection for Mueller.

[Madam45for2923]

11. The point is he does!

[bluepen]

17. Nope. He has recused himself. Mueller reports to

Rosenstein. If Trump wanted to fire Mueller right now, he would go to Rosenstein, not Sessions.

Having Sessions as AG means nothing in terms of protecting Mueller. Not one bit.

[Madam45for2923]

19. Rosenstein wont fire him. A new AG not recused will fire him ASAP

[bluepen]

25. And Rosenstein would be gone.

Then Rachel Brand moves up. If she refuses, she’s gone, and down the line we go. This is the process. These are facts.

I see you edited your OP to explain that the reason you want Sessions to remain is that he recused himself. You seem to be under the impression that that means he won’t fire Mueller.

The fact is that he CAN’T fire Mueller. He wouldn’t even be part of the process. At all.

Three people in this thread (so far) have explained this correctly. Not sure what else it will take.

[BzaDem]

30. I think you are missing a critical point.

Mueller does report to Rosenstein, but that is ONLY because the AG is recused. As soon as a new AG is in place, Mueller would no longer be reporting to Rosenstein. He would be reporting to the new AG (assuming the new AG is not also recused). That new AG could fire Mueller without even telling Rosenstein.

[bluepen]

34. And none of that needs to happen to fire Mueller.

It can be done at anytime, as explained at least four times in this thread by three different people.

And Grassley has already said there would be no hearings on a new AG this year if Sessions leaves. So guess who the acting AG would be.

Rosenstein.

There’s absolutely no protection of Mueller with Sessions there. None.

Grassley reference: http://www.businessinsider.com/grassley-trump-sessions-confirmation-2017-7

[BzaDem]

39. I still think you are not appreciating an important distinction.

Trump could execute a Saturday Night Massacre-style firing of Rosenstein and company, and eventually find someone to fire Meuller. He could also potentially attempt to rescind the regulation appointing Meuller, and attempt to fire Mueller without Rosenstein. Both of those actions would cause a firestorm that could put his presidency at risk. The latter would cause mass resignations throughout the government, and the former would likely do so as well. The latter would also be legally challenged, as some language in United States v. Nixon could be read to forbid the President from rescinding a regulation without the concurrence of the agency head.

Because those two options are so risky for Trump, the inevitable political and institutional blowback acts as a deterrent. That deterrent is the only reason he hasn't fired Meuller already. (If you disagree, I would be interested in a coherent theory as to why he has not already fired Meuller.)

On the other hand, if a new AG fires Meuller, and could credibly claim to have done so without any direction or involvement of the President, that would dramatically reduce the political risk to Trump.

So the question would become: could the President put in place an AG that would fire Meuller? Your Grassley quote might be relevant if that required Senate action (though even then I don't think anyone actually believes Grassley would refuse to hold hearings on a new AG).

But the President does not need the Senate's approval. If Sessions resigned, the Vacancies Act permits the President to temporarily appoint as acting Attorney General any Senate-confirmed official of any department, or any non-Senate-confirmed official in the Justice department above a certain level/pay grade. (Most people do not realize this.) In particular, Rosenstein only becomes acting AG if the President does not use the vacancies act to pick someone else.

[Iwasthere]

47. Well said

I think they get it now

[bluepen]

48. And your theory hinges on this...

“if a new AG fires Meuller, and could credibly claim to have done so without any direction or involvement of the President, that would dramatically reduce the political risk to Trump.”

That seems even remotely possible to you? That a new AG could credibly claim to have fired Mueller without direction or involvement of Trump? Seriously? I don’t even think Trump, in all his arrogance, believes that’s possible. And I notice you didn’t address the potential for political blowback in this theory, only the one you don’t like.

But assuming any of what you said could be executed by Trump, how exactly is Sessions providing protection for Mueller? Why not just fire Sessions and go with your method of replacement?

There are any number of reasons why Trump hasn’t done what I’m saying he could do, and why he hasn’t done what you’re saying he could do. If you want to try to make logical sense as to Trump’s actions or inactions, go right ahead. I think he’s afflicted with such serious psychological issues that it’s damn near impossible to figure out why he does almost anything.

As for the “new AG” you really should see what Grassley said about a potential hearing and/or recess appointment.

I’ll wait until someone explains how Sessions provides protection for Mueller.

[BzaDem]

55. Yes, it is possible, if Session resigns.

If Sessions resigns, and Trump can handpick someone in the DOJ to become acting AG, I think it is in the realm of possibility that the firing of Meuller could be executed with reduced political risk for Trump. It would depend on a great number of factors, including whether he can find a plausible vacancies-act-qualified replacement that will do his bidding (potentially falling on one's sword to do so). I don't deny that it could turn out equally badly for Trump. But I think the set of possible outcomes grows significantly if Trump can pick a new acting AG, and that new set of outcomes would include new outcomes where the president does not face as much risk. Rosenstein remaining AG for Russia matters reduces the set of possible outcomes where Trump escapes profoundly damaging consequences for a Meuller firing.

If Sessions is fired by Trump first (or resigns in a way that makes clear Trump de facto fired him), and then Trump picks an AG that fires Meuller, I think the political risk would be comparable to an outright firing of Rosenstein. (His own advisors thought so too, which is why they convinced Trump not to fire Sessions immediately after Meuller was appointed. This was reported by several news outlets.) But Sessions resigning due to scandal is very different than Sessions being fired by Trump, and that difference could lead to a more favorable outcome for Trump.

(Also, it is unclear if the vacancies act actually applies if the President's firing caused the vacancy.)

I also think that throwing your hands up in the air and saying "Trump is irrational, why bother analyzing what he will do" is deeply misguided. For sure, he does act irrationally at times. That calls for greater caution and less sweeping pronouncements about what he might do. But there is also a lot known about what motivates Trump. In some ways he is even more predictable than the average President, and in others he is much less so. We certainly know far more than nothing about how he makes decisions, and one should take that into account (with appropriate qualifications and acknowledgements of uncertainty).

[Madam45for2923]

24. Laurence Tribe worried DEMS take bait fire Sessions & buh bye Mueller

Exactly what I worried about yesterday in suggesting that Dems not take the bait but protect Mueller by holding off on Sessions!

Link to tweet

[muriel_volestrangler]

65. Dems cannot fire Sessions. That's the big flaw in your logic.

The person who can fire Sessions is Trump. Trump doesn't need Dems approval to do so; he won't pay any attentioon to Dems in deciding whether to fire Sessions, or who to replace him with.

[Madam45for2923]

67. But they can make lots noise N donald use it to fire him since DEMS want him to al la Comey

[muriel_volestrangler]

69. Yeah, but that assumes Trump will completely change his personality and policy

and take into account what Dems say. This thread is pointless.

I would point out to Tribe that going easy on Sessions gives Congressional Republicans (not Trump) the excuse to say "well, if what Sessions did isn't that bad, then this is a nothingburger".

[mythology]

18. Except it's not really. Trump can tell the deputy to fire Mueller

If he refuses, Trump fires him and the next one gets the same order. In a properly run administration, that would be protection. But this is a Nixon style administration.

[Madam45for2923]

21. More steps. With a new AG one step Buh Bye Mueller!

[Madam45for2923]

27. Laurence Tribe: 1st things 1st PROTECT MUELLER then go after Sessions

Not at all. I’m saying first things first. Protect Mueller till he’s done investigating and indicting others. Then go after Sessions.

Link to tweet

[Kaleva]

50. For what reason? As a civil servant, Mueller has protections

[Hassin Bin Sober]

36. I don't see how Mueller gets fired when he is uncovering massive tax evasion and money laundering.

Maybe Mueller is a genius for going after financial crimes first??

Repigs and the general public might not care about collusion. I honestly think Trump could get away with that.

[beachbum bob]

3. Firing mueller is overt obstruction after indictments been issued

Few conservatives would like this as a 2018 campaign issue, especially in 60-70 houses races that were decided by 8 or 9 points or less....

[Hassin Bin Sober]

8. Yeah, I don't see how he fires Mueller with massive tax evasion and money laundering charges pending

Maybe Meuller is genius for filing non political based charges first???

[davekriss]

4. Yup

Either that or Sessions fires Mueller on his way out. There is no way in hell the corrupt gang in DC will allow the FBI to continue. The questions is: What do the rest of us do about it?

[Madam45for2923]

28. Laurence Tribe: 1st things 1st PROTECT MUELLER then go after Sessions

Not at all. I’m saying first things first. Protect Mueller till he’s done investigating and indicting others. Then go after Sessions.

Link to tweet

[comradebillyboy]

6. Sessions isn't going anywhere

[gratuitous]

35. Also, it's not up to Democrats to fire or retain Sessions

That's up to the President's sole discretion. As for naming a replacement AG, that will have to go through the Senate's advise and consent role as provided by the Constitution.

[pnwmom]

43. No, but DT could use the Dems as an excuse for firing Sessions. n/t

[gratuitous]

49. Or use no excuse at all

President Trump hasn't seemed particularly constrained in his actions and movements during the last nine months or so. Whether he uses the Democrats as his excuse for firing Sessions is immaterial, really. He might just as likely blame the New York bike lane attack or his six-putt on the 13th green. Whatever he says or does should he fire Sessions, the reality of things is that it's totally on him. Democrats should be ready to say just that.

[pnwmom]

51. We would ALSO be giving cover to Congressional R's, if they want to roll over and play dead for DT.

[Madam45for2923]

52. Let's not make it easy & give them an excuse.

[madinmaryland]

74. He'll blame HRC and Obama. Even though they are not players in this,

he will use his "go to" people to blame.

He's a goddam moron. Fuck him.

[Iliyah]

7. Hammer coming down on Kushner and June Boy

even the firing of Mueller won't help but will make matters worse.

[Madam45for2923]

10. We need to be further along where there is the point of no return, then we check-out Sessions

[ananda]

12. Actually, the only one who can fire Mueller is Rosenstein.

Rosenstein is the one who appointed Mueller as Special Counsel.

[Madam45for2923]

13. & he won't UNLESS THERE'S A NEW SHERIFF IN TOWN AKA NEW AG!!!

[shanny]

29. New AG would have to be confirmed.

As more criminality comes to light, less likely to get a minion through that process (as a corollary, less likely to have someone confirm-able agree to take the job).

p.s. please STOP SHOUTING

[Madam45for2923]

31. Dems don't have majority! GOP would confirm anything as already proven w/Sessions

[shanny]

33. Only 2 Rs in Senate would have to defect!

As they have already signaled they would when the trial balloon of defunding Mueller was floated! This would be worse!

And we are far down the road from those initial confirmations.

[Madam45for2923]

41. Yes, let's gamble.

[shanny]

56. You act like what we do makes f@ck all difference.

It doesn't.

[Madam45for2923]

57. I disagree!

[pnwmom]

44. Actually, an acting AG could do the job. DT would simply have to go down the line

till he found someone willing to fire Sessions.

[Madam45for2923]

14. With a new AG not recused the job of firing Mueller falls back to the NEW AG

Last edited Fri Nov 3, 2017, 02:59 PM - Edit history (1)

[Madam45for2923]

15. new & improved AG not recused FIRES MUELLER TOMORROW!

[BzaDem]

32. The person who appointed the special counsel is irrelevant. The reason Rosenstein is involved

is not because Rosenstein appointed Mueller, but because Rosenstein is currently the acting Attorney General for purposes of the Russian investigation.

If a new non-recused official became AG, that new official would become the Attorney General for purposes of the Russian investigation, and Rosenstein would lose all authority not explicitly delegated to him by the new AG.

[Madam45for2923]

16. Are we being GASLIGHTED here? I am asking for a friend!

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

20. That scenario brings back fond memories of the Saturday Night Massacre.

Which of course insured that Nixon would remain in office to the end of his second term.

Am I remembering that correctly?

[NCTraveler]

22. The fact that indictments have been handed down.

I don’t think this would be that bad in the big picture. Firing the AG, nominating someone else, firing a Special Prosecurer... wow

[Madam45for2923]

53. Perhaps, after a few more indictments then we could more comfortably gamble on this.

[NCTraveler]

54. It would help.

Absolutely. Indictments are good. Firings are good. This crap is just good.

[Madam45for2923]

23. Laurence Tribe worried DEMS take bait fire Sessions & buh bye Mueller

Exactly what I worried about yesterday in suggesting that Dems not take the bait but protect Mueller by holding off on Sessions!

Link to tweet

[Madam45for2923]

26. Laurence Tribe: 1st things 1st PROTECT MUELLER then go after Sessions

Not at all. I’m saying first things first. Protect Mueller till he’s done investigating and indicting others. Then go after Sessions.

Link to tweet

[Wwcd]

37. Richard Painter: "The fix is in. They set up Sessions to take the fall."

Richard W. Painter
@RWPUSA
The fix is in. They set up Sessions to take the fall. After he is gone, a new acting AG fires Mueller.
-----


But then, the new AG has to be confirmed, and Mueller may have them all indicted by then. Think there's only 25 days left in this Senate session.

I'm sure Mueller has thought this scenario through & has his next move in the works.

REALLY Hoping for indictment roll out by late tonight. Maybe after Trump has left the country.
They can arrest him when AF1 lands back on US soil.

Mueller needs to hand out about 20 indictments by Monday. End this criminal bs asap.

[Madam45for2923]

40. The fix is in.They set up Sessions to take the fall. After he is gone, a new acting AG fires Mueller

[Wwcd]

42. Unless Meuller gets them all first!

This is so f'd up

[Madam45for2923]

45. Don't really know Mueller's timetable. D whole deal needs 2b further along close 2 pt of NO return!

Then we can check-out Mr. Sessions. But right now Sessions is recused even though picked by the squatter in our WH.

[Vinca]

38. I think Sessions will resign and Dems have no control over that.

All we can hope is whoever fills the slot won't fire Mueller. If they do fire Mueller, we're pretty much looking at a dictatorship.

[Madam45for2923]

46. I think Sessions will hold unto dear life.

[Madam45for2923]

58. Kicking!

[Kirk Lover]

59. If he fires him it's obstruction of justice pile on. Go ahead and fire him, makes you look even

MORE GUILTY...if that's possible and the nightmare is not going away. So go right ahead and fire him bub...it's gonna backfire spectacularly just like your little Comey plan.

[Madam45for2923]

60. Let's not gamble while we got a GOP majority.

[Madam45for2923]

61. Kicking!

[Madam45for2923]

62. I cannot believe that I need to kick this again.

[struggle4progress]

63. Meh. Tribe is entitled to his opinion.

[Madam45for2923]

64. Can anyone spell RECUSAL for me? How about RECUSED?

[cbdo2007]

66. Mueller is five steps ahead of Trump in this game...

I'm sure he's already covered his bases. He has been doing an excellent job thus far.

[Madam45for2923]

68. Sounds good! Let's not make it harder.

[onenote]

70. If Trump wanted Mueller gone he doesn't need to fire Sessions.

As others have repeatedly pointed out in this thread.

Walking through the options:

Fire Sessions and, as provided by statute, allow deputy attorney general Rosenstein to become acting attorney general. Mueller is as safe as he is now.

Fire Sessions, but instead of allowing Rosenstein to become acting attorney general, Trump invokes the Vacancies Reform Act to get around Rosenstein and handpick someone who will/might fire Mueller. Big risk to Trump for going around the statutory procedure under which Rosenstein would become acting AG.

Don't fire Sessions, but fire Rosenstein, and let Rachel Brand (currently third in line at DOJ) become acting deputy general. She could fire Mueller.

Fire Sessions and instead of allowing Brand to take over, Trump relies on the Vacancies Reform Act too hand pick a new deputy attorney general who fires Mueller.

If Trump goes around the statutory order for filling vacancies at DOJ, either to keep Rosenstein from becoming acting AG or to keep Brand from becoming acting Deputy AG, there will be a huge outcry.

[Madam45for2923]

71. Fire Sessions for what reason?

[onenote]

72. any reason Trump wants to give.

Same thing for Rosenstein.

[Madam45for2923]

73. He needs to give a reason and if he chooses Russian connections those connect 2 him

[Madam45for2923]

75. Laurence Tribe worried DEMS take bait fire Sessions & buh bye Mueller

[Not Ruth]

76. Is Tribe or Mueller right? Someone has to be right.