'Good Guy with a gun' theory flops in Texas today

[applegrove]

as neighbour with a gun was able to scare off shooter but only after at least 26 dead and 20+ injured. And he was a neighbour to the church. But we still have the 5th worst shooting in US history.

[TomCADem]

1. Remember Walmart Last Week? Police say shoppers drew guns after shooting

Guys goes in, shoots a few people, then calmly walks out while customers draw their weapons looking for the shooter. Could have been a lot worse with a bunch of strangers walking around with guns drawn.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/latest-police-suspect-colorado-walmart-shooting-50883278

Colorado police investigating a shooting at a suburban Denver Walmart say they had to rule out customers who drew weapons as suspects after a gunman opened fire inside the store. Three people died.

Thornton police spokesman Victor Avila said Thursday that investigators reviewed store surveillance footage Wednesday night and saw "a few" people inside the store who drew weapons in response to the gunfire.

Avila did not know if any of them were security guards employed by the store.

Avila said officers watched the footage and ruled out each person out as a potential shooter before releasing statements identifying the lone shooter.

[applegrove]

2. Yes. It is a wonder that the ggwag people did not end up shooting each other at

the Walmart tragedy.

[Lars39]

4. Per the Denver article it took them 5 hours.

[krispos42]

14. Did the people drawing their guns stop a mass shooting?

That's the fundamental problem. If the gunman flees from or is gunned down by armed victims, we never know if they stopped a mass shooting or how bad it would have been. But it really doesn't get the headlines then, does it?

[Orrex]

29. If we can't know it, then you can't use it as an argument

"Our presence might have stopped more killing." That's a statement of wishful thinking, and it's garbage.

Unless you can present clear, strong evidence that a shooter stopped a rampage because of the perceived response later on, you can't make any positive assertions about it.

[PJMcK]

39. That's Logic, Orrex

One doesn't use Logic in discussions about guns in America.

[BootinUp]

69. Your post suggests there are many topics where

Logic still works. Lol

[OriginalGeek]

77. Logic is always logical

Unfortunately, People are not.

[krispos42]

80. That's my point

If a criminal kills 2 then is gunned down or otherwise deterred by an armed bystander, it's not a mass shooting and doesn't get much press.

So it happens, statistically speaking, but we don't have any real idea of how often.

Disgruntled former employee returns to work and guns down his boss. Fast acting worker slams something heavy into the shooter's head and knocks him out.

Was a mass shooting prevented? Dunno. Some people like that kill their boss then themselves, some kill their boss only, and others keep killing until the cops get them. Which did the employee with the heavy object stop?

Impossible to say.

[Demsrule86]

18. Guy was shot at Walmart in Austintown Ohio near where I live.

[FarCenter]

3. He got there way ahead of the police. The police are incapable of protecting anyone

except maybe politicians and celebrities.

[applegrove]

10. Yes but it is not a solution to mass shooting events because the shooter

had an assault rifle and managed to be the 5th worst mass shooting in us history. Thank God for the neighbour i agree. But ggwag is no solution. It is just like "thoughts and prayers" a opiate to the public to not demand gun control in the aftermath of a horrific act.

[Demsrule86]

19. Well we would not need all this protection if the GOP would allow reasonable gun control.

There is no God damned reason to allow people to walk around with automatic weapons of any sort...and we can limit the rounds in ammo too for a start...no silencer and no hollow point bullets either. Why should we have to live in fear so assholes can walk around with guns and then at some point they want to know what it feels like to kill actual people which is what I think is happening.

[sarah FAILIN]

5. To be fair, the neighbor was too far away.

I'm not advocating for high powered weopons, but you would have to have your gun loaded and in sight of the shooter at the time it started to do any good. The neighbor probably had to get his out of the house and may be the guy with a 2 yr old he had to get to safety. By the time he got over there with a gun, it was too late even though he did shoot at the guy.

That argument has always been thin at best as far as possibly working in reality, I keep a gun right by my back door to protect my chickens and I have yet to hit anything.

[Jim Beard]

8. Even if you don't hit anything, you scare off the creatures. A single shot 12 gauge shotgun works

[Demsrule86]

20. He had to be close and probably ready or everyone would be dead.

It doesn't take that long with an automatic weapon. But we wouldn't need 'security' and all the bullshit if we have reasonable gun laws. Sure it won't stop everything...but neither do murder laws, and speed laws...but the laws still exist.

[linuxman]

6. Ahh, the ol' anti's catch 22.

Stop a guy before he starts killing by using your gun? Doesn't count! There was no mass shooting!

Stop a guy after he has killed people? Doesn't count! You didn't prevent a murder!


Pretty clever. Wish I'd thought of it, actually.

[Lee-Lee]

13. Yep. The anti-self defense crowd ignores cases where it happens

And like we see here sets ridiculous standards when it does.

The attacks was interrupted and the attacker had to change plans and fled. Had that not happened he may have gone ahead and made sure all the wounded were shot again until dead. We don’t know for sure, but we do that that armed intervention made him change his actions and flee.

[cwydro]

31. Yes indeed.

I’m sure the shooter was hoping to surpass the Las Vegas monster, but this guy at least prevented that.

[Demsrule86]

22. Stop a guy by not letting him have a fucking automatic weapon...why should we have to live in

fear so some big bad guy walks around with a big gun and a small dick.

[shanny]

28. Amen to that.

[Demsrule86]

33. The guy had served time...I want whoever sold him the damn gun charged or who gave him the

gun.

[Lee-Lee]

36. Hopefully they will be

I’m seeing reports now that he actually bought it at a store and passed the background check.

If so, the system failed.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

53. It appears he wasn't a prohibited person.

He received a Bad Conduct Discharge, not a Dishonorable it looks like now. A Dishonorable is equivalent to a felony and would have barred him from legally owning guns, but a Bad Conduct Discharge does not. The discharge was for domestic violence. Normally a domestic violence conviction would also make you ineligible for gun ownership. The problem is that this was done through Court Martial. The UCMJ does not have a domestic violence statute. Cases of domestic violence are charged as assault and batteries, a misdemeanor in many localities, so he was never disqualified. If all of this is confirmed, then the NICS check worked as designed and would have denied him if he had a Dishonorable or Domestic Violence on his record. But he did not.

[Lee-Lee]

62. He was a prohibited person

Any conviction punishable by a year or more, even misdemeanor ones, makes you a prohibited person. Regardless of the actual sentence, only the possible sentence matters.

He served a year and looking at Artiicle 128 he could have been sentenced to more.

So even if he had served not a single day the conviction possibly punishable by a year or more made him a prohibitied person.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

68. Depends on the specific charge in 128.

Judging from his sentence, 12 months confinement and Bad Conduct Discharge, he was hit with 2 counts of assault consummated by battery, which carried 6mo/BCD. Reason I believe this is the BCD, if he were charged under 128 with the under 16yo element, he would have gotten the Dishonorable. Also, per 18 U.S. Code § 922 (d)(1), the sentence must exceed 1 year for a NICS denial. 12mo and under is in the clear it appears.

[Lee-Lee]

74. You cant necessarily judge from the discharge

Because the worst discharge possible was a Dishonorable doesn’t mean that he automatically would be sentenced to that.

I read it like it was assault with grievous bodily injury, punishable by up to 3 years and a DD but he got 1 year and a BCD where the judge didn’t max out the punishment.

Hopefully more form details will be released soon.

[Demsrule86]

44. Yep...we had a bank robbery in my little town and a robbery of a woman using the ATM...

no more automatic weapons...this is getting out of hand...a rifle,shotgun or handgun in the house is all that is needed for 'protection'. I maintain that future supremes will overturn the ridiculous notion that the individual is a militia and has a constitutional right to carry...but in the meantime the courts also ruled that reasonable gun regulation is permitted.

[aikoaiko]

45. Do we know that he had a fully automatic weapon?

[Demsrule86]

47. Don't start the 'fully' automatic game... he had a fucking automatic and whatever you call it ...it

needs to be banned. I am sick of living in fear...I was worried about public and parochial school shootings, movies, and now college...I am sick of it...I have a right to not live in fear so a few asshats can be armed to the teeth.

[aikoaiko]

49. Just checking on what you said. You usually write accurately so I thought I'd ask.

I'm sorry to hear that you live in fear.

[LanternWaste]

59. No doubt, you'll allege your sorrow is sincere.

No doubt, you'll allege your sorrow is sincere.

[aikoaiko]

71. No one I know, including me, wants to see unnecessary shootings or people living in fear of them

But go on and get your repetitious text schtick on.

[hamsterjill]

51. Reports are that he killed 26 people in 15 seconds.

What does that indicate?

[Lee-Lee]

56. Do you have a credible source for that 15 second figure? Link?

Looking for good sources among all the mess..

[hamsterjill]

64. There was video of an eye witness on local news

I don’t think you’ll find it “credible” enough as she didn’t want to be identified. This is a link - credible or not.

http://www.kvia.com/news/texas/abc-news-it-lasted-about-15-seconds-at-least-27-dead-in-texas-church-shooting/652137547

[aikoaiko]

66. Not much about whether it was a semi-automatic or automatic rifle.

There is no need for speculation and spreading possibly erroneous and misleading information.

[hamsterjill]

73. Who exactly is doing that?

n/t

[manicdem]

7. Resident with a rifle stopped the attack

Was reported in CNN that a resident grabbed his rifle and shot at the murderer when he was leaving the church. I hate guns, but I'm glad that one guy had one to stop him.

[yardwork]

9. How did that stop the attack? The killer had already shot everybody.

[Crunchy Frog]

11. It's the thought that counts. n/t

[Straw Man]

12. Oh, you mean he had filled his quota?

How did that stop the attack? The killer had already shot everybody.

And he was all done and was going home to see what was on TV?

[Lee-Lee]

16. It made the shooter drop his gun and flee

That means that he couldn’t keep shooting and kill more people, and that he couldn’t move on to another church and do the same thing.

There is no doubt that armed intervention the way it happens stopped him from being able to harm any more people. Either the armed citizen fired the shot that killed him or the gunman killed himself when he realized that the armed citizen was pursuing him.

In this case the police played zero role in stopping him.

Give credit where credit is due. Had those people not acted when they did many more could have been killed by this guy. Don’t try to twist and avoid giving them credit for that because doing so won’t fit what you want the truth to be for your own agenda.

[yardwork]

17. Were you there?

You're making a lot of assumptions.

[Lee-Lee]

21. Im basing it off the more credible sources so far

Do you have any information to the contrary that says the armed intervention had no effect?

[pintobean]

24. You're kidding, right?

Unless he gives up his arms and surrenders, you have to assume he will keep killing. It would be extremely foolish and dangerous to assume otherwise.

[mythology]

25. If the motivation was specific people in the church such as his mother-in-law

I find it unlikely that he was going to shoot up a different church. If the best example of a good guy with a gun you can find is the 5th largest mass shooting in modern history, it's not a viable solution to the problem of gun violence.

[Lee-Lee]

27. There are actually lots of examples out there

But I’m sure you would find reason why they all don’t count.

[Demsrule86]

46. You are right I can find 100's because the shooting wouldn't happen in many cases if we had proper

gun laws that did not allow guns to be sold to domestic abusers as well as other criminals...held gun shops and individual sellers responsible if they put a gun in the hands of a mass shooter...and parents should be charged when they 'accidentally allow a gun to fall into the hands of their kids who shoot themselves or someone else etc...also ban Bump stocks,automatic weapons, hollow point bullets, silencers and high capacity magazines.

[B2G]

75. And his mother in law was not there.

How do you know her residence wasn't planned to be his next stop?

You don't.

[Demsrule86]

34. That is great ...but again...there should have been no shooting because we could have decent gun

laws. At some point, Americans are not going to want to live imprisoned behind 'security' and such...then they will toss out those (GOP mostly) who protect the NRA and assholes like the shooter...those who want guns will be sorry they stood against reasonable gun laws when they end up with way more restrictive laws.

[hamsterjill]

52. Local news indicates the shooter killed himself.

The involvement of the neighbor and the other person in the pick up is still not yet entirely clear.

Texas church shooting leaves 26 dead, including 8 members of one family
https://www.ksat.com/news/national/texas-church-shooting-leaves-26-dead-including-8-members-of-one-family

[klook]

78. So he instantly transformed into a good guy with a gun

and offed the bad guy with a gun.

[Demsrule86]

23. If he was leaving he church, one assumes he was done so what possible good did it do?

Ban fucking assault weapons.

[Lee-Lee]

35. He may have been moving to another church

Hard to say his motive since he is dead. But until he was engaged by an armed response he still had the ability and potential to go elsewhere and keep killing.

[Demsrule86]

42. I have heard this was a domestic thing...his wife that he assaulted and his MIL went to that church.

But with proper gun laws...there would be no need.

[Lee-Lee]

43. I havent seen any credible sources for that. Link?

Always looking for reliable info in cases like this.

[Demsrule86]

48. Here you go...they also said what job he did.

http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/texas-shooter-was-registered-security-guard-had-family-ties-to-church/

[Lee-Lee]

50. Thats kind of vauge to say the least

“Ties through family” can mean a lot or nothing more than a distant cousin.

I’ll see if I can find anything with more than a vauge statement about it. Could be something to it, could be nothing.

[Demsrule86]

54. Even Wiki has it...

And it was posted in the thread previously.

"Perpetrator
Devin Patrick Kelley
Born February 21, 1991
Died November 5, 2017 (aged 26)
Guadalupe County, Texas, U.S.
Cause of death Gunshot wound
Residence New Braunfels, Texas
Alma mater New Braunfels High School
Occupation Airman basic (2009–2014)
Employer United States Air Force (2009–2014)
The perpetrator was identified as 26-year-old Devin Patrick Kelley,[19] described as a "young, white male" by police.[5] Kelley was formerly a U.S. Air Force member who served in logistics readiness at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico from 2009 until 2014. In 2012, he was court-martialed for two counts of Article 128 UCMJ, for assaulting his spouse and her child.[20][21] He was sentenced to 12 months of confinement and a reduction to the lowest service pay grade of E-1. In 2014 he was dismissed with a bad conduct discharge.[22][23][24]

Kelley lived in New Braunfels, about a 35 miles (56 km) from Sutherland Springs. He married in April 2011, and divorced in October 2012.[25] His former mother-in-law has a Sutherland Springs mailing address,[26] and is reportedly a parishioner at the First Baptist Church.[27] According to preliminary news reports, Kelley might have had a personal connection to one or more persons at the church he targeted.[28]

According to several media reports, Devin Kelley had worked at the Schlitterbahn Waterpark and Resort in New Braunfels, and was licensed by the Texas Department of Public Safety as a security guard.[29][30][31]

On October 29, a week before the shooting, he posted a photo of an assault rifle on his Facebook profile.[32]"

[Lee-Lee]

57. Might have had is even more vauge

[LanternWaste]

61. You seem to indict so many for an apparent vagueness

You seem to indict so many for an apparent vagueness whereas the scenarios you've provided for us are themselves little more than admitted hypothetical as well.

Consistency. I dig it.

[Lee-Lee]

63. Im just looking for something more definitive

I’ve already said they may be something to it or there any not.

[B2G]

76. Daily Mail has this.

Just putting this out there...not sure if it's been verified by LEO.

"The Texas church shooter had family connections to the church where he killed at least 26 on Sunday in what is now the worst mass shooting in the state’s history.

Wilson County Sheriff Joe Tackett told the Today show Monday morning that Devin Patrick Kelley’s ex in-laws attended the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, where he unleashed a firestorm of bullets during Sunday morning service.

It was previously reported that Kelley’s wife Danielle was a former teacher at the school, and that her mother Michelle was a parishioner.

But the sheriff’s revelation that it was his ex in-laws who attended the church indicates that he and Danielle may have had a falling out.

Sheriff Tackett said the family was not at the church at the time of the shooting, but spoke to investigators yesterday after the massacre."


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5054531/Shooter-targeted-church-ex-s-laws-worshiped.html

[Lee-Lee]

79. Thanks- thats more concrete and seems credible

[krispos42]

15. As did the "guns shouldn't be allowed in churches" theory.

Churches are big fat targets. Masses of people showing up to a box at prescribed times during the week, all in a big open room, and facing away from the main doors.



I have no solutions, just pointing out the obvious.

[Demsrule86]

26. Texas allows guns in churches.

[Orrex]

30. I'll tell you what cops love to see, and what really streamlines the whole process:

it's a bunch of gun advocates firing their guns at the scene of a mass shooting.

[Lee-Lee]

32. Actually most cops

Want responsible people to act in their absence.

Cops can’t be everywhere.

And despite the misconception of the anti-gun crowd on here cops respond to cases of armed citizens stopping crime on a daily basis, and the armed citizens are smart enough to react properly and the cops are smart enough to judge who is who.

I responded to dozens of cases of an armed citizen holding a burglary suspect or who defended themselves and never had a problem.

When I reached CCW classes I teach what to do when the cops arrive- clear and drop the weapon, hands up and let the cops sort out who is who. Before that if they can they should call 911 and tell the dispatchers who you are and what you are wearing.

The reality is that most self defense shootings are not Hollywood type shootouts that last 10-15 minutes. Most are 30’seconds or less, rarely more than a minute. 99% are resolved before police ever arrive in the schene. The fantasy the anti-CCW crowd has developed in their minds of cops showing up and shooting the CCW holder is largely just that. It’s possible, but rare, and any good CCW class will each how to minimize that risk. Any remaining amount of risk if that is what you assume when you decide to carry.

[Orrex]

37. We're not talking about one-on-one self defense, though

I don't dispute that a responsible gun owner can hold (and indeed many times has held) an assailant at bay until cops arrive.

But in the chaotic aftermath of a mass shooting, with dozens of victims dead and wounded, I reject the notion that the presence of additional guns on the scene simplifies anything.

[Lee-Lee]

40. Here is the thing about the psychology all these mass shooters

They virtually all, with rare exceptions, stop as soon as any armed resistance is applied.

They either kill themselves, flee, or they just give up.

It is part of the psychology of these types. As soon as they face anyone with the ability to fight back they are no longer the person in power, the person in control, their fantasy act has been disrupted and their attack ends.

They don’t get into shootouts with armed citizens or cops. They either kill themselves or the give up.

(The exceptions to this are usually the ones with some kind of political motive, like shooting cops or shooting up a planned parenthood clinic. Their psychology is different).

So even in these cases it’s far better for an armed citizen to act and stop the threat as fast as possible than wait for the police response that could be 3-20 minutes away depending on your location.

Even in these cases once the threat is ended the armed citizen can either holster their weapon or if holding the suspect at gunpoint yell lit at cops who he/she is and what they are doing.

It’s a risk, for sure, but not the huge one you make it out to be. It’s a manageable risk and one you take on if you choose to carry, and that is why carrying isn’t for everyone.

But it’s still preferable to act and end the threat as soon as possible instead of allowing them to keep harming people. I carry every day, I teach CCW. If someone was shooting up a place and I can act I will. I understand there is a risk that I will be harmed or killed by the attacker or the police responding, I will act to minimize that risk, and I accept that risk.

[Paladin]

58. Slam the barn door after all the horses have fled?

Stupendously unpersuasive. But you've got a "president" who's on your side, big-time.

[Orrex]

60. I don't want some rando taking it upon himself to open fire in my presence, but YMMV

Also, that thing about "3 to 20 minute response time" is a classic NRA talking point. I've heard it many dozens of times over the years, often with exactly the timeframe you've cited, and always with more or less identical language.

Of course, the fact that it's an NRA talking point doesn't, in itself, invalidate the argument, but it might reasonably cause one to hesitate before accepting it at face value.

[Lee-Lee]

67. I speak of response times because I was a deputy

Not from NRA talking points.


And those are facts.

Because someone you don’t like has said it before makes it no less of a fact.

I was often working the night shift with 3 other deputies to cover a 500+ square mile area. We each too a quarter of the county, within my quarter it was anywhere from 2 minutes (starting with the call to dispatch, then taking favs, then them radioing me) to 20+ minutes if it was a far rural corner.

If I was sent outside my area because the deputy covering that sector was on a call it could easily approach 30 minutes depending on where I was and where they call was in a worst case scenario.

You can live in the fantasy world where the police arrive instantly in the nick of time like happens on TV, with no delays, if it makes you feel better. But you are in for a rude awakening when you dial 911 and realize that isn’t usually how it plays out in the real world.

I responded only to take the repairs 50 times for every time I was able to actually stop a crime in progress. That’s reality.

And don’t take my word for it, don’t ignore it because the NRA says so. There is actual data out there from studies on this, since it’s all recorded by dispatchers. Look it up yourself and if you really want to know call your local LE agencies and ask what their response time is on average. They know.

[Orrex]

70. I know that you were a deputy, and I don't dispute that

And as much as I appreciate your anecdotes, they remain anecdotes.

I also know that your every single post on this subject--in the wake of every single mass shooting--is unshakably pro-gun. It is reasonable, therefore, to take your claims with a grain of salt because they demonstrably carry a pro-gun bias.

Because someone you don’t like has said it before makes it no less of a fact.

Yes, I made more or less that identical observation:

Of course, the fact that it's an NRA talking point doesn't, in itself, invalidate the argument, but it might reasonably cause one to hesitate before accepting it at face value.

And I am correct, because it is reasonable to question an assertion when it is put forth by a claimant with a very clear agenda (the NRA), even when that same argument is put forth by others.

[Lee-Lee]

72. What is the alternative to accepting it?

.

That the police have varied response times and that until they arrive you are on your own is reality. Not a talking point. It is a reality you “hesitate” to accept.

What alternative reality can you possibly envision that is an alternative to accepting that reality that causes you to hesitate to believe or accept it?

[maxrandb]

41. That's all well and good

but if you are not proficient enough with a gun to protect yourself with a simple 6-shot revolver, or 9M Handgun with a single 10 round clip, YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS OWNING A GUN

The fucking AR-15 this guy PURCHASED LEAGALLY, DESPITE SPENDING 12 MONTHS IN FEDERAL PRISON DUE TO AN AIR FORCE COURT MARTIAL is a WEAPON OF WAR!!!!!!!!!!!

It has no fucking business in our homes, on our streets, or in the hands of civilians.

You want to own and shoot one of these? OK, but it has to be under lock and key at a licensed gun range. Go to the fucking range and shoot the fucker until you cum in your pants for all I care, BUT KEEP IT THE FUCK AWAY FROM THE REST OF US THAT WANT TO GO TO THE FUCKING PIZZA SHOP WITHOUT HAVING TO PUT OUR HEADS ON A FUCKING SWIVEL BECAUSE SOME NUT-JOB DIDN'T GET ENOUGH PEPERONI ON HIS FUCKING PIE

and FUCK THE NRA TOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

[maxrandb]

38. I guess the right to be a "gun-Humper"

Trumps the right to practice religion, free speech and peacefully assemble.

Yes! Let's all be thankful that the shooter was only able to kill 26 and maim 30+ in the matter of seconds it took a gun-humper to return fire.

If only the guy didn't have a semi-automatic weapon and unlimited rounds. Oh well, "nothing can be done", besides, it's tooooooooo soon.....

[Watchfoxheadexplodes]

55. Got to go with he may have saved some lives

In this case

[HAB911]

65. Well all we can do is pray