You guys can't keep doing this. Working class white man here.

[Tobin S.]

Trump voters were mostly middle class to wealthy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/05/its-time-to-bust-the-myth-most-trump-voters-were-not-working-class/?utm_term=.978cbe765580

"This kind of stereotyping and scapegoating is a dismaying consequence of the narrative that working-class Americans swept Trump into the White House. It’s time to let go of that narrative.

What deserves to die isn’t America’s working-class communities. It’s the myth that they’re the reason Trump was elected."



So I check in here and what do I see but comments like this, and stuff like this has been here since I came to DU.

"White college educated came out for the democratic party yesterday

and the white working class male is stubbornly republican.

I really believe that the white working class male is a seething mass of resentment that they are no longer handed the world and have to start working as hard as the rest of humanity."

and

"And they watch FOX and listen to right-wing radio"

In this thread ----> https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029816070#post39



White working class men have never been handed the world and they work very hard for their meager lifestyles. They started calling us working class because that's what we actually do for a living. This slandering of low income white people by people on both sides of the aisle is why many working class white people simply do not participate at all in the political process. They don't feel like either party is truly looking out for them. Whether you think that perception is the reality or not might be up for debate, but that perception is there and it's there for a reason. It's not all about Rush Limbaugh and Fox News. They hear you guys when you talk about them like that. Don't think so? What do you think is happening at this very moment?

I have voted in every election since 2000 and it has been a straight Democratic ticket every time. I am not an outlier or an anomaly. I have been either poor or working class all my adult life.

You guys need to stop doing this kind of thing. Do you know how bad this hurts people like me?

I work anywhere from 53 to 64 hours a week and I make less than 50k a year. That is the reality of most working class white men. Where I'm from a typical job for a young working class white guy starts at $10 an hour in a machine shop or a plastic extrusion company. It is dirty, hard, stinking, tiresome work. We don't need this kind of thing from you guys. It is incredibly disrespectful.

[Habibi]

1. Kicking and Rec'ing!

[Hortensis]

31. A full -- the best! -- THIRD of white working class male voters

voted Democrat in 2016.

And I don't for a minute doubt that many of those slamming ALL WWCMs on DU are, in fact, part of that group, or aspiring to it in these mean times.

After all, indiscriminate bashing is not exactly a strong indicator of higher education.

Maybe time to clean up our intellectual act a bit? Just because the media make it sound like all WWCMs chose the party of white male supremacy doesn't make it so.

And when many consider coming shamefully back to join us in the Democratic Party they shouldn't have to face a storm of enemy fire to do it. Understandable, but hardly smart.

[brush]

110. If a third voted Dem who did the other two thirds-vote for?

Come on, we all know and recognize progressive whites as part of the Dem coalition — IMO that would include the one-third of working class whites who voted for the Democratic Party nominee.

Let's get off trying to pardon the wealthy and not so wealthy trump humpers though.

They get no sympathy from me.

[Hortensis]

114. Can't follow the reasoning, but let's make it simple:

Tobin S, and no doubt many other WWCMs like him here on DU, is offended by being called a trump humper. Unless the intent is to insult fellow DUers, this should be stopped. It's literally both dishonest enough and mean enough to be itself trump humper behavior.

Also, singing the right-wing song that ALL WCCMs claim to have been failed by their fellow Democrats, who encouraged equality of women and minorities, is at best stupidity, at worst treachery. Unless pushing right wing lies is the intent, that of course should also be stopped. Immediately.

[brush]

116. Read my headline and post again.

Nothing complicated about it.

I said the one-third of working class white men who voted Democratic are part of our progressive coalition.

The two-thirds who voted for and still support trump get no sympathy and are responsible for the orange debacle in the White House.

Clear?

[cwydro]

119. This. Nt

[JI7]

2. if they voted for Trump they are involved in the political process. and they told us why they voted

Trump. it was because of bigotry.

the ones who said their top concern was the economy voted for Clinton.

i don't care for non whites that voted for trump either. i don't have sympathy for the hispanics and muslims that voted for trump and ended up being banned or deported either. these people were just fine seeing others suffer.

[Tobin S.]

4. Most Trump voters were middle class to wealthy.

Do you think they are representative of every person in America who makes 56k a year or more?

The point is, you guys are scapegoating an entire class of people because some of them voted for Trump, and not nearly as many as people did who are middle class and wealthy.

[JI7]

6. everyone who voted for him is shit. and there is nothing wrong with calling out the low income

bigots who voted for him when we keep getting all the bs about how they are such victims.

being working class, lower income etc is not an excuse for their bigotry.

[Tobin S.]

7. Jesus Christ! The problem is that you guys are calling ALL of us shit and bigots.

Why don't you call ALL middle class and wealthy people shit and bigots when many more them voted for Trump than working class people?

[JI7]

8. we do. but we don't continually get people going on about the goodness of those groups

and denying their bigotry and other fucked up views.

[Bettie]

57. Actually, people are calling the

people who voted for Trump bigots. They tend to be people who hate someone (everyone) on the list of people he and his minions regularly denigrate. They are OK with every horrible thing he's ever said, as long as he keeps up the hate.

Those who didn't are a different type of person.

I say this as a white woman related to a lot of white men and women who are on both sides of that divide (but more are on the side of the racist dickheads who think Trump is their orange savior).

So, are you a Trump voter? No? Then you are not the bigot.

Oh and working class people who voted for him are also fools, because they voted against their own interests. At least the wealthy can expect to get something out of it.

[Demsrule86]

71. That is nonsense...my own son is 'working class' although after being laid off from GM is seems

on a permanent basis...back to college for him. He is so left that he is a socialist practically. The facts are the facts, while no one disputes that some working class white males are Dems...work with the auto union here in Ohio every year...there is not doubt that the majority of them went for Trump and the GOP...I think in Ohio, it was based on jobs and trade...now they are sorry as Trump is a big fat liar...but some are bigots. They look around and think the reason they are not doing well is the Blacks or the immigrants...very common thing in difficult times.

[mia]

92. Just in case you haven't had time to read the whole thread...

Tobin S. is a Democrat and voted for Hillary.

[cwydro]

120. Tobin did not vote for the Shitstain.

Perhaps you should re-read his OP.

[Corvo Bianco]

121. I'll delete the post since it doesn't address Tobin's concern. I think my response is #95...

Thanks!

[Aristus]

107. I'm with JI7 on this one.

It isn't the middle class and wealthy white Trump supporters we keep hearing about. It's stories about how the Democratic Party dropped the ball when trying to win the white working class voter.

Stories about the poor, oppressed downtrodden white working class male who has been "forgotten", "overlooked", "taken for granted", whose "voice has gone unheard".

Ony to find out they don't really care about whatever issue Trump is spewing about; they just love his crassness, idiocy, and bigotry. We have unemployed coal miners in West Virginia refusing state-sponsored job re-training because they're sure Trump will fix everything. We have virulent working-class white supramacists dragging their bedsheets and duncecaps out of the closet, not because they are unemployed and desperate, but because Trump has lent an illusory validity to their repulsive beliefs.

If Buford and Lurleen Redneck of Trailerville are such progressives, let them step up to the ballot box and prove it.

[GoneOffShore]

139. You've said it far better than I could have.

Especially that last line.

Unfortunately Buford and Lurleen are, to use a term I saw on FB today, 'Slack Jawed Junksluts'.

[maddiemom]

160. I think you're onto a sad truth.

One of the mistakes Hillary DID make was to lay things out on, and refer people to, her website to READ. Granted, that could be called "elitist."

[sarah FAILIN]

25. Not around here.

Red state and most people voted for him here. The less you make, the more you support him around here. I appreciate that it is not that way 100% of the places, but you have to consider where you are.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

32. Anyone who voted for the Nazi-in-Chief is a POS... period! Fuck them all!!!

[adigal]

145. My 26 year old son is an electrician, and everyone he works with voted for Trump

He can't stand working with such morons.

[onit2day]

164. I don't do stats but the people I know who voted for Trump

were mostly republicans, most falling under the heading of selfish greedy a-holes and that part is apparent. Don't take any of those comments personally as I'm sure all working categories were included under Trump supporters and Clinton supporters.

[n2doc]

3. Just amazing how all those rich and middle class voters just happen to live out in the sticks

http://time.com/4587866/donald-trump-election-map/

[Tobin S.]

5. Did you read the article? I thought the Washington Post was a respected news source here.

The data is there and it backs up what I said. Just because you live in the middle of the country doesn't make you poor.

[n2doc]

11. Data is data

But interpretation is something else. Those rich and middle class voters in the article always vote R. That's their Base. It is the ones that came in the last election and switched that made it possible for Trump to win, unlike Romney.

[Tobin S.]

13. Really?

The point is that many more middle class and wealthy people voted for Trump than working class people. The data backs that up and that is not open to interpretation. How does that translate into the entire working class taking the blame for Trump? How does that translate into all working class men being knuckle-dragging Republicans? I'm sure many working class people voted for Hillary, too. Me being one of them.

[Corvo Bianco]

95. Okay I think the problem here is that you don't like being "lumped in" with Trump supporters.

I'm not lumping you in with Trump supporters, because you voted for Hillary. I don't lump myself in with Trump supporters (I am white and make under $50k also), because I voted for Hillary.

What do you want us to call the irrational low income white people who voted their racist hearts in response to dog whistles? Tell me what to call them.

I think the bigoted white working class is a useful and fair description. It doesn't include me, or you, because we're not bigots.

To your larger point I don't think anybody denies that well-to-do selfish folks vote Republican. They're also bigots because they voted for a man who promised to enact racist policies.

Bigots have a good showing across all income levels. But it's the coveted white working class vote that keeps their bigotry a subject of interest.

[nini]

161. This is my take on the post too

well said

[brush]

112. You're on DU. Posters here are more knowledgeable than to assign a whole demograhic segment...

to the ranks of bigots.

We know that progressive whites are part of our coalition and that would include the one-third of aware, working class white men who reconized trump for what he is and voted Democratic.

As for the other two-thirds who voted for and still support the orange bigot in the White House who is disgracing our country and causing much harm, they deserve all the scorn we heap upon them.

[Stonepounder]

154. I wish that were true.

How many times have I read a screed about 'The South'? As in 'The Whole Damn South Ought to Secede'? Or Texas should secede. Or allegations that we would be better off without {name your group}?

So, echoing a number of demographics, you can't lump a whole group into one category. (I would, however, make exceptions for hate groups such as Bannonites, White-Supremacists, KKK members, New Nazis, and so on.)

[brush]

156. The groups in your last sentence are the ones who deserve all the scorn we heap upon them.

Your first sentence does not represent the majority of people on DU.

[Stonepounder]

157. Not to be argumentative or snarky, but now you know how we Southerners or Texans

or Wage Slaves feel when someone on DU lumps all of us into a basket.

Of course not all DU is that way. But then again, not all Southerners are racist, not all Texans are gun-totin' Trumpites, and not all LMC wage-slaves are ignorant FOX addicts.

[brush]

158. That's what I said about most on DU. Let's leave it at that.

[Jim Beard]

173. The media's interviews with voters conrtibute to our impression of each other.

[BlueMTexpat]

12. It is also true that many of these

well-off RW Trump voters move to less-populated areas like MT, and with their money, reinforce anti-liberal prejudices, thus helping to skew the results.

Greg Gianforte (R-MT) is a case in point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Gianforte

[Tobin S.]

15. Don't blame me. I voted for Hillary.

[BlueMTexpat]

17. I'm not blaming YOU

at all - just pointing out that the red-blue divide can be a bit more nuanced than the graphic shows.

ETA: I may have accidentally responded to the wrong post. I meant to respond to the graphic.

[Tobin S.]

24. Well it's good to know that some of you here aren't. Or are you the only one?

[BlueMTexpat]

30. I doubt it.

There are quite a few of us here who have not had any success we have had handed to us merely by virtue of our family name or financial resources. The first was not applicable and the second was non-existent.

While we have worked very hard to get where we are, we also recognize that we had support - and good fortune - along the way. Not everyone has had those two factors in their lives, no matter how hard-working they are.

That, in a nutshell, is why I AM a Democrat - to help spread the support and opportunity around for ALL. And I presume that is also the case for most, if not all, others here on DU.

But it is true that there are too many whom Trump's policies will harm directly who voted for him and who STILL don't "get" it. Too many of those were working-class and white. Please don't assume that such criticism is directed at you personally. After all, YOU did not vote for him.

And I concur that such broad brush criticism can reinforce the idea that Dems are "elitist" - which plays right into RepubliCON hands.

Dems do need to keep the dialogue open with ALL voters and perhaps to be more effective in pointing out the stark differences between Dems and Cons. But we should NEVER abandon our traditional Dem base to do so. That is where I draw the line.

Howard Dean has always understood this. Too many self-described "Progressives" do not.

[samnsara]

39. me too!!

[Wednesdays]

85. That map shows how Trump won nearly every state

Which is just as fallacious as your assertion.

[PufPuf23]

129. The county where I live and vote went the lightest pink in the general election.

In the primary Sanders won over Clinton and Trump was readily behind both major participants in the Democratic party in absolute vote total.

But in the general, Trump slightly beat Clinton.

[snpsmom]

9. I live in the sticks

Rural Michigan to be exact. All of my neighbors are white working class voters, and the statistics are that 70 percent of them voted for Trump. They hate Obama and the Clintons, and they aren't too sure about my politics. They tolerate my husband and me because we have deep roots here and we are 20-year military vets. You can talk stats all you want, but this is reality where I live, whether you like it or not.

[Tobin S.]

10. That might be the reality where you live, but it is not representative of Trump's entire base.

Again Washington Post. Data backs me up. Do you guys no longer trust the Washington Post? Is that fake news to you guys now?

[mia]

18. Hang in there, Tobin S.

Don't let the snipers here intimidate you. Thankfully they are few and far between. It's amazing how some will band together to bully other folks down. Thank you for your post. You have my full support

[cwydro]

122. Same here.

Smh.

[snpsmom]

150. Not sure what your problem is with what I said

I'm not shaming anyone. I'm telling you the truth about where I live. No one here is rich. The majority of them voted for Trump. They are my neighbors.

[Cosmocat]

56. You are correct

I don't live in the "sticks" but I live in a semi rural area, have inlaws, etc, and this is exactly right.

It is 101% cultural.

[Amimnoch]

14. They're missing the message, and we're not getting it out enough.

One of the backbone policies of the Democratic Party is and always has been labor and labor rights. We ARE the labor party.

Right from our own party platform:
We're the ones trying to raise the wages, their's is giving tax cuts to the rich.
Our's is protecting workers rights. There's is protecting business rights (which is really protecting businesses from workers rights)
Ours is helping workers share in corporate profits.
Ours is expanding access to affordable housing.
Ours is protecting and expanding social security.

And, these are just in the very top, first sections of our platform.. above EVERYTHING else.

https://www.democrats.org/party-platform

I get that many of them don't like the way many talk about them, but ffs, when they keep voting against their own best interests it's hard not to look at those in that live in that demographic, and in those economic realities and still vote the way they do as complete dumb-asses.

I do think one of our biggest mistakes in 2016, as a party, was focusing on why Trump and the repubs were bad, and less on why we're good and what we bring to their tables. We need to make our platform better known.

[Tobin S.]

19. The first half of your post was very good and you should have stopped right there.

That is what you need to be telling working class people. They are not hearing that. What they are hearing is what you said in the paragraph below the link. The fact of the matter is that many of them vote with you guys, and then you turn around and talk like that about them.

Did you guys not think there were poor and working class here at DU? Many of them might not post, but there are probably a bunch of them reading. And let me tell you, this thread has been very revealing.

[mdbl]

41. I have been following this thread to this point and I have to say

that the people that voted for trump, whether working class, poor or otherwise need to be shamed for their stupidity. You acted like right wing hate radio and other offshoot media just like it don't play a big role in their stupidity and you would be dead wrong. Once I stood up in the middle of my co-workers and asked any of them to tell me something about our politics other than what they have heard on rush limbaugh to raise their hand, and not one did. I'll even go as far as to say anyone over the age of 50 that isn't a millionaire and voted for trump are in the same category. They listen to bullshit on the radio and Fux news all day and vote accordingly. These voters are told they are smart for bashing liberals. Now you can argue that the dems need a better strategy to counter the right wing propaganda, but the "telling working class people" the truth about what's being done to them obviously isn't working very well, nor has it for the last 35 years. The propagandists with the most money are winning the war with the batshit craziest stuff I thought I would never see in our society. it's going to take a lot more than telling these people what is good for them to get them to realize they are F'd.

[mythology]

67. Do fat people need to be shamed for eating too much?

Do smokers who get lung cancer need to be shamed for smoking?

Public shaming isn't effective at getting people to change. It makes people withdraw into their existing circle where the behavior you're trying to shame is lauded. Or to put it another way, does Rush Limbaugh calling you names make you think about considering his opinion?

[mdbl]

77. I disagree - you're talking about physical addictions not stupid decisions

mush lumpballs does it all day, and it works for him. Oh and as far as I'm concerned, Mush is one of the most offensive people on air.

[Cary]

82. I seriously doubt that you're going to get anywhere by reasoning with cult followers

I have done some tax returns for Amway distributors. Invariably they make a few thousand dollars, most of which is from selling things to themselves. They spend 10 times that on lousy motivational crap. When I suggest that maybe after 10 years or so of this, it's just not going to work out for them, and they fire me.

Converting cult followers will take a lot of energy and will yield few results. Marketing 101, make your pitch in 7 seconds or less. Some will, some won't, so what? Next.

I'm not going to spend a second lamenting any group that doesn't yield to facts and reason. I don't see ridiculing or shaming them as a problem. In fact crushing them is merciful. That's the only language they know.

[mdbl]

104. I agree, just expose them for what they are and hope

those with common sense will realize they are on the crazy train and jump off.

[Cary]

106. We can't save everyone

So it goes.

[Jim Beard]

174. Just make them watch the shiney silver dollar you started spinning on the table

and tell them what you want them to hear. They will, and not realize it.

[WillowTree]

100. Yes. By all means, shame them and tell them that they're terminally stupid.

That will definitely bring make them want to listen to any truth you speak.

[mdbl]

109. Good luck with it.

but reasoning hasn't worked. When they have a so-called news network that lies to them 24 hours a day, why should they believe you? Or why should they even believe their own situation sux worse because of it when they sit in denial? No, they should feel ashamed, and until they do, they won't awake from their stupor.

[WillowTree]

115. Good for you! Go shame the Hell out of 'em!!

[mdbl]

118. And good luck with your love fests.

Even though I don't subscribe, I still hope they will yield you results some day.

[cwydro]

123. The upper middle class who voted for Trump dont give a shit about your shaming.

You are missing Tobin’s point.

[mdbl]

124. The sub thread kinda veered off topic, but that doesn't change the fact they should be ashamed of

themselves. I don't care what income level, race or religion they are. At some point, they'll be faced with it - it won't take me to do it. But if they approach me, I'll let them know my take on it. As far as Tobin's point, I get he's unhappy with the mass generalization, but I have a problem categorizing trump voters any other way. They are either willfully or willingly ignorant and should be ashamed for their part in the de-evolution of our society. But you try to use reason.

[mamas]

37. Well, for a fact, some unions turned their backs on Hillary in 2016 and voted for Trump and the

union-busting GOP.

[JustAnotherGen]

16. Referencing your link

Be mad at Politico. They found racists in Western PA in a dying coal mining town where deaths by heroin doubled in one year, the social security office is hopping, and white people boycott the NFL and call athletes n**** for life.

Funny that in NJ where the under 50K earners and Union voters broke heavily for Phil, it is completely possible to have an anti racism and anti sexism message that also addresses economic inequality. Identity politics framed correctly works.. . In the right places.

[Tobin S.]

21. Reference the data.

Do you guys realize that when you call working class people ignorant racists and demonize them you're not just calling the red state ones that. You're calling the blue state ones that as well. It is a blanket statement that you guys make all the time as illustrated in my OP. You think working class white men are lazy Republicans.

Again Trump supporters are mostly middle class and wealthy people.

[mdbl]

45. It's a straw man argument

What is the most ironic though is that ANY working class person would vote against their own self-interests so often. I don't care which state they're in.

[JustAnotherGen]

68. I did not call working class people ignorant racists

I wrote this:

16. Referencing your link

Be mad at Politico. They found racists in Western PA in a dying coal mining town where deaths by heroin doubled in one year, the social security office is hopping, and white people boycott the NFL and call athletes n**** for life.

Funny that in NJ where the under 50K earners and Union voters broke heavily for Phil, it is completely possible to have an anti racism and anti sexism message that also addresses economic inequality. Identity politics framed correctly works.. . In the right places.

The people in the Politico article are not wealthy - with the exception of the business owners.
Rich, middle class, working class - if you are white person who voted for Trump - you are a racist and I don't want you anywhere near me or my family.

They can fuck off for all I care.

What you don't understand Tobin - is that when you DEFEND them - you tell your "supposed" allies that you have MORE EMPATHY for them than for your own.

Whose side are you on?

The black woman in NJ who helped 'flip' it two nights ago? Or people who refer to people like Kapernick a (their words in the Politico article) a "N*gger For Life".

Whose side are you one?

[JustAnotherGen]

69. PS

The ones in VERY fucking RED Hunterdon County with their homes and cars plastered with Trump stickers.

They are FUCKING RACISTS TOBIN.

FUCK THEM. YOU TELL THEM TO STAY OFF MY FUCKING LAWN. THEY ARE MAGGOTS.

[tavernier]

20. Interesting article, indeed.

Fascinating: the statistic that 70 percent of republicans do not have a college education. Made me wonder what the stats are for Dems.

[GreenEyedLefty]

29. Found this on NPR

https://www.npr.org/2016/09/13/493763493/charts-see-how-quickly-white-non-college-voters-have-fled-the-democratic-party

Among white people who have a high school diploma or less:

In 2008: 45% R, 44% D
In 2012: 53% R, 38% D
In 2016: 59% R, 33% D (this poll was evidently taken before the election)

Among white men, it's 66% R, 28% D in 2016.

A couple of things about this polling: Age seems to be a factor. It appears that the migration to the Republican party is mostly among people 50 or older. It's never talked about in these articles but it's clear to me that racism factored in as well.

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. That's in the ANES study; this says they put the overall 4 year college degree figure at 62%

(or so - from a graph: http://www.pleeps.org/2017/04/10/comparing-samples-from-2016-exit-polls-vs-anes-vs-cces/ )

That would mean the Trump GE figure for non-college of 69% would imply a Clinton figure of about 56% (in the ANES results, the overall Clinton-Trump split was 49-44, so you expect the Clinton figure to be slightly closer to the average than the Trump one).

But note that what that page is saying is that there are significant differences between studies (exit polls, American National Election Survey, and Cooperative Congressional Election Study) for the total votes from those with and without a college degree, so any comparison using different polls or studies is likely flawed.

[beachbum bob]

22. you need to stop taking this stuff personally, the demographics are pretty clear and you are

an exception to the rule. Many low and middlclass whitemen have drunk the koolaid that they are victims and the reason why are minorities, immigrants and illegals.. These white men accept this without any curiosity and believe this nonsense without question.

[Tobin S.]

26. Stop taking it personally?

You guys sit here and call every one of us stupid, racists and say the most terrible things about us using blanket statements. Oh, but don't take that personally when the fact of the matter is that not even a majority of us voted for Trump.

[JI7]

28. A majority of white people did vote for trump.

[HughBeaumont]

58. "every one"? Oh COME on.

That's just a bit of a broadbrush. Nobody is blaming ALL WHITE PEOPLE for Trump, just as nobody blames ALL WHITE MALES for not voting for Hillary Clinton.

Sorry, but the facts remain that NO Democratic Candidate since 1964 has ever won a majority white vote . . . not even Obama.

If we're looking for people to "Stop doing something", it's voting for Republicans in spite of Democratic administrations performing far better when it comes to the economy.

[uponit7771]

65. ? A majority of white men ... DID ... vote for Red Don. That doesn't mean demean them though

[Orrex]

89. Well, I repeatedly (and still) call them idiot racist fuckheads

And if that's demeaning, well, when they stop being idiot racist fuckheads, I'll stop calling them that.

[Orrex]

72. "Not all white working class men," I guess.

Oh, but don't take that personally when the fact of the matter is that not even a majority of us voted for Trump.

Have you posted documentation of this? The article in the OP doesn't make that claim.

I'm not saying that the claim is untrue, but I haven't seen you support it here, and I haven't seen it supported generally.

[MrsCoffee]

75. How many time are you gonna say you guys?

And then lump yourself in with Trump voters?

For fuck sakes it sets my hair on fire to see people go off on white women for voting for Trump, but I don’t take it personal because I am not one of them. They should be called out not coddled.

Tuesday showed that our message is clear and strong. We don’t need to reach out to the racists and haters who clearly voted for racism and hate.

Anyway, you should not be lumping yourself in with Trump voters and taking this so personally. I’ve seen many people say nice things about you personally right here in this thread.

[DiverDave]

23. What?

Dude, I'm white and I drive a truck.
I dont get the vibe I'm less of a person here.
Why are you so amped?
Could it be you WANT to start something?
If you have a heart, want our country to do the right thing, then you are NOT who people are yelling at.
My job is tough too, and I've never felt that anyone here was looking down on me.

The idiots that voted against their own intrests ARE worthy of scorn.
Did you vote that way?

Now, I have to go to work.

[Tobin S.]

27. Dude.

If you don't see what's going on here then you need to wake up. Did you miss that part where I said I've voted a straight Democratic ticket in every election since 2000?

And the reason I'm expressing these things here is precisely because people here look down on me. Happy trails.

[DiverDave]

52. Wow

You told ME
lol, you sure have all the answers
Bummer you got your head up your behind.

I'm done with you. Grow up

[leftynyc]

54. If you've voted for a straight

Democratic ticket, you aren't the ones we're talking about. I'm not really sure how to convince you of that. Would it help if a disclaimer was added to each of those posts?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. I don't look down on anybody but Trump voters.

They're ,well, deplorable.

[uponit7771]

66. You're ... NOT ... the statistic people are talking about here

[NCTraveler]

63. Tobin has a big heart.

I agree with your overall post but I feel like I have gotten to know Tobin over the years from reading his lounge posts. Guy has a big heart.

[maxrandb]

33. You're talking to the wrong folks here

Maybe instead of lecturing Democrats about how not all white working class men are idiots and racists, you should talk to your white middle class men that truly are idiots and racists.

Just maybe they are the problem

[Madam45for2923]

50. What an excellent idea! Am waiting for a response. In the meantime:

[maxrandb]

74. Democrats already know that not all

White middle class men are racists and idiots. Poster would get better results if they went and talked to the white middle class male voter from Pennsylvania that was recently quoted in a Newsweek article as saying that "the NFL stands for N*****s for life"

Let us know how that conversation goes!

Maybe when are done there, you can move onto the guys who are convinced that Obama was born in Kenya. There's a shit-ton of white middle class in that category.

Get back to us with your results

[Madam45for2923]

76. Yes please: Let us know how that conversation goes AND Get back to us with your results!

Sounds more useful & productive that DUMPING ON DEMS!

[Corvo Bianco]

96. Yes!

Tobin, if you can convince my pa not to be a monster I'll give you his phone number.
You don't have to convince us.

[still_one]

34. As far as I am concerned, anyone who voted for trump was well aware he

was a racist, sexist, bigot, and they still voted for him. That consisted of people across all socioeconomic backgrounds.

[democrank]

35. Keep writing and talking about this, Tobin S.

but keep in mind you can find comments about " trailer trash" folks even here at DU.

[mdbl]

46. makes it difficult to spot the trolls sometimes.

[BamaRefugee]

36. Please post a few examples of DUers attacking white working men as one monolithic group

I'm a white working class male who's on here every day and I don't think I've ever seen it. Posts about White working-class males who are racist and bigots? Of course there are. White working-class males who voted for Trump? Of course. White working class males who vote against their own economic self interest? Yep, lots of posts.
But posts that simply blame that entire group? Nah. Don't think so.
I'll be happy to be proven wrong though. So please educate me by posting say 3 to 5 discussions where white working class males are attacked en masse, with no distinction as to what subset of that group.
Thanks in advance!

[questionseverything]

130. here is one that hurt my feelings

4. Well, it was certainly done without the almighty "white working class" vote





And that shows "the course" that claims that we have to dismiss "identity politics" in order to win these people over to take back the house and senate is sure not worth "staying."


White men voted for Gillespie over Northam by 63% to 36%. White women voted for Gillespie by 51% to 48%.

We still won, because of voters of color weren't fooled or taken in by those who thought Northam "didn't earn their vote."

Time to remember and respect who our damn base really is.

That's "the course" that was revealed.

//////

I don't have the time to look for several

but I read ovr and ovr yesterday...we did it w/o the white working class vote

who do ya'll think lives in those suburbs? that went bluer than blue....

the dems need to be a HUGE tent and I think we would be better served to not attack any segment of our voting block

[BamaRefugee]

134. I was adressing Tobin or whoever the OP was, sorry for any confusion n/t

[questionseverything]

136. you asked...But posts that simply blame that entire group? Nah. Don't think so.

I think the first line of the paste I posted is pretty dismissive, meant to be a lil insulting and diminishes an entire group

<shrugs>

[BamaRefugee]

137. that was the point I was making. He picked out 3 lines out of a thread with HUNDREDS of responses

[questionseverything]

138. ur post that i responded to said,there were no posts like that

now ur saying ,well there aren't many

just saying we are stronger together!

[BamaRefugee]

159. actually i said "post 3 to 5 DISCUSSIONS where white males were attacked end masse"

Not 3rd in lines out of one discussion with 100th of replies. No big deal! Go Dems!

[questionseverything]

165. agree on GO DEMS!!

I am giddy at the thought of Alabama's senate seat flipping

[BamaRefugee]

167. Being born and bred in Bama...that won't happen!

They'll elect Moore just to be stubborn. Then the Senate won't seat him, and another Republican will be appointed, and the seat is saved as an (R). Sadly.

[questionseverything]

170. what we need to happen is "sane" repubs back a write in campaign

split that vote

[mfcorey1]

38. Preach!!! I hate i see polls pointing how the educated voted. Against who?

The uneducated? No college degree? Is the implication that the people cannot think who stop at twelfth grade? I just had a conversation with a neighbor who resents the stereotyping.

[HopeAgain]

40. Politics of marginalizing v. recruitng

Last edited Thu Nov 9, 2017, 08:53 AM - Edit history (1)

The former is easier and requires little or no self-awareness. That's why this country is so divided.

I find all the vitriol in here about whole populations and regions uncomfortable because I don't see how hate of whole groups of people can possibly avoid the pitfalls of stereotyping. We can write off whole populations or maybe we can focus on offering a better America and explaining how. I am not saying accept bigotry, I am saying fight bigotry by modeling behavior that is the opposite of bigotry.

I'm a white middle class educated voter who believes in a God and I find the constant condemnation of my demographic and my faith uncomfortable as well. I understand that I have never experienced systemic discrimination, and I understand I am in no shape or form a victim, I just don't understand how stereotyping is fought by stereotyping.

[questionseverything]

171. your last line really sums it up

it bears repeating...

I understand I am in no shape or form a victim, I just don't understand how stereotyping is fought by stereotyping.

///////

yesterday here at du I saw white men, white women,the far left and Christians denigrated by small but vocal groups

it is a huge mistake

thank you for voting with the Democratic party

as a Christian I always said, I have no choice but to vote for the dem because Jesus said<" when you care for the least of them, you care for Me"

only the Democratic party cares about feeding the poor children so that is how I vote...but it would be nice if my coalition didn't make it hard to do

[NCTraveler]

43. Tobin S...

I know you are one seriously good dude who works constantly at self betterment and to be good to those around you. I do think this is somewhat of a bastardization of the underlying theme of many of the comments you bring to the table. At the same time, the emotion, hyperbole and inconsistent of the claims allow you to make a bold and righteous argument.

Fact is that the group you mention has benefited from privilege their whole lives, overall, and vote out of anger to maintain those privileges. The attacks are used in an absolute manner around here when it should be highlighted that they are simple yet accurate gross generalizations. I know that most white uneducated men on our side don’t take offense as they get it. Still, it’s clearly personal in nature and the way it’s put forward does envelope a whole bunch of great progressives.

On a side note, I’m college educated and run my own business. It’s my understanding that you have been successfully self-employees it the past and you are educated to perform a serious task that I am beyond unqualified for. That’s what I don’t like about the argument. It mocks directions of education that every progressive should support, not dismiss as something other than education. Trade schools.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

44. Tobin, I agree that we all need to stop hanging labels....

...of our choice on any of our fellow man. What moral right do I have to publicly hang the label of "stupid" on a man or woman I don't even know, and certainly have not walked a few miles in their shoes?

Absolutely none.

Let's all remember - the world is watching us.

[Orrex]

47. As much as I enjoy a good scolding, maybe you can clarify something:

You guys need to stop doing this kind of thing. Do you know how bad this hurts people like me?

Well, you'll get over it. I'm "people like you," working my ass off for a relative pittance--I can point you to my many posts over the years on that subject.

Nevertheless, I am able to recognize that blanket complaints about ignorant white working-class Trump voters are not directed at me.

Unless I'm misinterpreting the graphic, the data pool is white Trump voters, and we see a breakdown by income and education level, correct?

In practical terms, the question should not be "were most of Trump's voters white, working-class males?" but rather "did more white, working-class males vote for Trump or Clinton?"

It's entirely possible that most white, working-class males are not idiot racist fuckheads who voted for Trump, but the graphic and the article don't appear to address that.

[ehrnst]

49. THIS

"were most of Trump's voters white, working-class males?" but rather "did more white, working-class males vote for Trump or Clinton?"

That is the big distinction the OP is missing.

[ehrnst]

48. You do understand that most things you talk about also apply to working class people of color

right?

But politicians don't seem to think that they should expect different from life.

[Cosmocat]

55. I have had my absolute fill of that bullshit

Gotta kiss the white male butt hurt arse, not a whimper about everyone else who struggles in life just the same ...

[redstatebluegirl]

51. My husband comes from a long line of union people.

He and his 4 siblings are the first in their families to go to college and three of them have advanced degrees. All of them paid their own way. I agree that many of us lose our minds and lump all blue collar people into a group with similar ideas and voting patterns. We should not do that. I need slapped around every once in a while to.remind me

With that said, what has changed since we were kids being raised by hard working blue collar parents is the idea that education is out of reach. It is still the silver bullet.

I grow weary of people calling us "elitist intellectuals". It even happened last year when we were volunteering with a local union toy drive when they found out we were academics. It broke my husband's heart to have someone like his daddy say that to him. Then came the "I bet you are a damn democrat" statement.

I guess what I am saying is it goes both ways. We all just need to listen to each other better than we have been.

[brewens]

53. I've been in that boat my entire life. Hard work and never made big money. I'm just under 40k

per year now and am fairly happy with that. It took me 11 years at my current job to get up that high and have some good vacation benefits.

I'm 56, voted democrat all my life, have been pro union, never resented paying my fair share in taxes, though I would change a hell of a lot about how that money is spent.

I know a lot of guys like me that expected to have their dad's jobs. Graduate from high school (maybe barely or not) and get on at a place that pays good money and retire. They fell for the republican's bullshit and now it's screwing them. Because they wuz learnt to hate paying taxes, wuz afraid libruls wud git their gunz or whatever. They took their votes and sold them out every step of the way, and managed to make them proud they did it! Freakin' tools!

Sorry pal! Trump voters may mostly have been above our class, but it was enough of our dumbass peers that fell for it since the 80's that have screwed us.

[LexVegas]

59. I had no idea how hard it is to be a white man in America. nt

[NurseJackie]

62. People who feel ENTITLED are dismayed when others ACHIEVE.

Yeah, I know that's not very nuanced and it's a broad-brush description... but I think it's fairly accurate.

[Orrex]

86. Damn straight! I'm not even allowed to own concubines or field slaves anymore.

What's this nation coming to?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. Facts are stubborn things

In this year’s presidential election, Donald Trump attracted a large share of the vote from whites without a college degree, receiving 72 percent of the white non-college male vote and 62 percent of the white non-college female vote, according to CNN exit polls. Similarly, in the United Kingdom’s June referendum on its European Union membership, 75 percent of voters with a post-secondary degree voted to remain in the EU while 73 percent of voters without one voted to leave the EU.


https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2016/11/18/educational-rift-in-2016-election/

Education is correlated with ideology. The less education you have the more likely you are to fall on the right.

My pops had a ninth grade education but he was a stellar athlete. He played baseball, was a lifeguard, and boxed. He was blinded in one eye by shrapnel and contacted malaria in the Battle Of North Africa. That was it for his athletic career. He was a garden variety liberal and never blamed others for his station in life. He died at the ripe old age of 58 when I was fourteen and left my mom and I with a 700 foot shotgun shack and not much else. I never blamed African Americans or whomever was the boogeyman at the time for my plight.

[SunSeeker]

135. Your dad was amazing.

[Madam45for2923]

61. Republicans don't have solutions for WWC workweek beside feel-good-now-racism & religion un-freedom

plus a nice dose of homophobia!

And now they are offering Russian-Nazis Combo by the dozen as seen by the squatters in our WH.

BUT PLEASE LET"S DUMP ON DEMS!!!!!

[HipChick]

70. Exactly..

[dalton99a]

73. +1

[irisblue]

101. think about adding misogyny, always present.

[Madam45for2923]

102. Ah misogyny it is baked into the whole she-bang PIE and cannot be separated.

from it. It gives it the base flavor.

[muntrv]

78. Income is an outdated indicator of how people vote.

Values is a better indicator. The politics of resentment transcended class in 2016.

[smirkymonkey]

141. I would also throw education into that mix.

Regardless of income, the well-educated tend to vote for Democrats. Many well educated people who don't make a lot of money tend to be liberal.

True, there are well-educated people who vote republican, but those are the people who seem to only have valued education as far as it could get them a lucrative career. They never had any interest in thinking critically or learning for the sake of learning.

[Baitball Blogger]

79. The average Republican isn't just a middle class to wealthy class white male voter.

Though poor whites may have had a past history of voting the Democratic ticket, I think we have seen a shift in voting patterns when Unions stopped being a factor with job security. The factor that is changing everything is an over-reliance on the so called trickled down system. It creates an environment where small businessmen must rely on the patronage system in order to survive. That's my observation from living in a good ole boy community.

The trickle down effect in small towns creates a very strange relationship between white residents, based on class. White males who are scraping to make a living find a way to hitch their wagons to the wealthy, hateful authoritarian types. Look at it from their small businessman's point of view. He knows that he's getting a steady check for one reason. He has passed his employer's purity test. The two have a political perspective that they agree on. And they reinforce those beliefs by spewing every hateful stereotype about minorities and Democrats. That's a reality in a small red town.

It's really hard, not to get defensive when you know that jobs are being dispensed in a way that reinforces a lifestyle that is intended to block you out of every basic right that you are entitled to in this country. There is no limit to their hubris because the legal authorities will do nothing to stop it. So, rank discrimination goes unchecked and the price of living the American dream in these communities is that you get victimized, not just by the old guys who use their military, ex-officer positions to justify their entitlement, but their grandchildren as well. There is no end to their hubris and, as a homeowner, you will be excluded in ways that defy the written law. There's nothing you can do about it because the system that exists in the community, is stacked in their favor.

So, if anyone can find some way to find a term that separates poor white males who are aligned with this political patronage, from poor white males who would walk away from a job where the employer expects a white purity test, please let us know what it is. I will use it.

Keep in my mind, that my section of the county is mostly white and Republican. Things might be different in more diverse neighborhoods.

[TNLib]

80. This makes allot more sense to me

I live in an affluent neighborhood in a very red state and I saw allot of Trump signs I also saw a few Hillary signs. I do feel like their is a culture divide among the affluent and middle class. I see it at work, in my own neighborhood, at parties and on social media.

Most of the working class people I know, don't vote or if they do they tend to vote (I).

[PubliusEnigma]

81. Sorry, but a lot of us poor whites are racist morons looking for someone to blame for their life.

We have to admit this before it can be fixed.

"They don't feel like either party is truly looking out for them."

That's why they voted in droves for Trump, regardless of qualification or aptitude.

[Moostache]

83. Trump voters are dupes...every. single. one.

There is no defense of a horrific decision made voluntarily. Having a fit of pique because someone feels disrespected or talked down to is not a legitimate reason to explain voting patterns like 72% of non-college educated whites voting for the "Grab them by the pussy", 100% KNOWN LIAR/RACIST, self-aggrandizing blowhard carnival barker.

"President" Trump is a permanent stain on the very notion of "America" the idea, and an absolute tragedy for "America" the country.

To me, this "issue" is a red herring. No one in seriously saying that people in the debate demographic are instantly bad people, and those non-college educated whites who did NOT buy the Trump/GOP bullshit are clearly NOT the targets of derision and marginalization UNLESS their identity is tied to racial identity and fiscal standing MORE than political and personal principals.

Look at it this way, unless you are looking for me to say that being white working class is inherently better than anything else, my judgment of your your intent shifts drastically. The issue to me is not skin tone, bank account balance or anything to do with lifestyle preferences (from music to TV to art to literature or intimate relationships). The issue is how a rational person, one who apparently did NOT vote for the abomination in the Oval Office, can DEFEND the dupes that DID vote for him.

If these voters were nominally "Democrats" prior to 08Nov16, they clearly shouted that day that they were not actual Democrats, period. I have no interest in defending or justifying the choices or feelings of non-Democrats here at Democratic Underground and unless you are here as a "Democrat-who-voted-for-Trump-because-ALL-Democrats-are-meanies", I don't know what else to say.

[hatrack]

84. You upper body strength must be impressive . . . .

. . . given the width of the brush you're waving around.

[BronxBoy]

87. Cry me a river....

Why is it we never hear about Black working class men or Latino working class men? I've always been offended by the term White working class men because it carries with it the unspoken assumption that men of color aren't part of the working class. A lot of us work are solidly working class...Bus drivers, janitors, restaurant employees and auto workers. Do you know how many of us have been poor or working class all our lives and have had to watch in despair as the White "working class" shit all over us? Nowhere in your hand wringing post do you even mention working class people of color. And you expect us to feel compassion for you?

The White "working class" gave us Reagan, Bush 1 and Bush 2. This is turn gave us the war on drugs which ravaged communities of color incarcerating us at far greater rates and with much, much less empathy than is being displayed for the opioid problems of the communities of the White "working class" The White "working class" sneers at the "welfare queens" of the inner city while remaining conveniently silent about how social security disability has become an important economic component of the drug ravaged communities of Appalachia. You whine about young White "working class" workers only being able to $10 per hour while being absolutely oblivious to the fact that the fucking UNEMPLOYMENT rate for people of color in some communities is over 50% with no relief in sight. How, my friend, has the White "working class" expressed concern and solidarity with working class people of color about this. And yet you come here to chastise people for admonishing folks who have consistently voted against their interests, have no problem embracing racist and misogynistic candidates and who, as a whole, could give two fucking shits about working class people of color.

I could go on and on....Ya'll ain't fucking special.

Yeah.......cry me a fucking river.....get your own house in order.

[BlueWI]

155. This.

Working class people of color? Still barely visible on a Democratic site.

[nini]

162. I wish I could 'rec' this post

[procon]

88. You has a sad? Have tissue, I've no sympathies to spare.

Meh, you're complaining about your perceived loss of gravitas, status and unquestioned prominence in our society, but trust me, you'll learn to cope. Look, every subset of Americans has a similar complaint, but women, LGBTQ, and POC (to name a few) have never even achieved parity with the built in prestige points that comes with being born a white male.

No, what you're experience is simply the long overdue scales of justice righting itself. Get used to it, relax, you're one of us now, the marginalized, the unworthy, the forgotten masses who have never enjoyed the privileges that your demographic category took for granted since time immemorial. You can whine about your loss of stature, or just get in line and wait like everyone else who wants a equal sized slice of that delicious American pie.

[Initech]

90. "And they watch FOX and listen to right-wing radio"

Yup - this right here. I know lots of people who are major hardcore Fox bots who take everything the network says literally. And you can't argue with them. It's like they're in a cult and they've been brainwashed by dear leader.

[lagomorph777]

93. We're supposed to be the party that DOESN'T divide people by race.

If we're not selling something that ALL working class people want, we're selling the wrong thing. No point blaming voters for our mistakes.

[Iggo]

94. They're working class, until you call them white working class.

Then you're talking about something else.

White Working Class is no different from The Rest Of Us Working Class, unless you're talking about white instead of talking about working.

[Mr.Bill]

97. I fit the Trumpster demographic completely.

I'm middle 60s, retired blue collar worker and as white as Opie Taylor.

Numerous times when I have been out in public in the past year, Trump fans will walk right up to me and just start a conversation as if we were both at the Trump rally last night.

The look on their faces is priceless when I proceed to tell them exactly what I think of the Orange Asshole. It completely bursts their bubble when they realize that not everyone who looks like them is a Trump fan. I mean they are literally speechless. A big part of their perceived power is the assumption that all white guys my age think the same way they do. They are so into stereotyping that they even do it to their selves.

[Va Lefty]

108. Know exactly what your talking about

Never ceases to amaze me that because I'm a mid-fifties, straight, white male most people assume I'm a republican. Like you say, the look on their faces is something to behold! Think your last sentence is spot on!

[Lifelong Protester]

98. How About if you Live in WI???

And are a Democrat. I'm "lumped in" with all the repubs. even though I've never voted repub. in my life.

[kimbutgar]

99. I keep thinking about the movie brainwashing of my father

How a mild mannered Democrat became a mouthing flaming hate filled right winger after saturating in the morose evil fox and rightwing radio. When the tv died they got a new one and blocked out fox and didn’t replace his radio that broke. In a short period of time he returned to be being a mild mannered person. Fox and Reich wing radio have systematically brain washed these people to the cult of twitler.

I lost a long time good friend to the fox christofascist cult. I miss her and the fun times we had but she lost her mind.

[underthematrix]

103. I'm an AfAm woman and there are lots of smart fierce white men

I'm with Tobin on this one. We need to update our talk.

[SweetieD]

117. I'm am also a black woman and I agree with you. Whether real or perceived, if poor white men feel

slighted they will run to whatever organization they feel safe in. If dems do not coddle them, then republicans and harder right organizations will. It is a real issue that needs to be addressed because they are still a very large demographic and important to the democratic party and the future of the United States.

[jalan48]

105. Thanks for posting. United we stand, divided we fall.

[samir.g]

111. They made their bed, now they can lay in it

[cwydro]

166. Only chickens lay.

Just sayin’

[Garrett78]

113. My response:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029823031

[cwydro]

125. Tobin, its obvious you hit a very sensitive nerve here.

People love to feel superior, and you’re challenging them on that score.

It’s way easier to pick on the poorer members of our society who may have voted for the Shitstain than it is to pick on educated and wealthy people who also voted for him.

Don’t let it get to you. You definitely hit a nerve lol. Hang in there.

[zentrum]

126. The working class used to be

……the base of the Democratic Party. We were the Party of working people.

[TygrBright]

127. Could you please define "working class"?

Because everyone I know works, most of them pretty damn' hard. And they all have class of one sort or another.

And a lot of them are college educated. And a lot of them are women. And a lot of them are people of color.

So... are you saying that "working class" doesn't include them? Or me (working pretty hard today myself)?

Or are you saying that only the white, male portion of the working class is being slandered and disrespected here?

Or... what?

WTF?

The whole "working class" thing confuses the hell out of me.

I don't know many people who don't work their asses off.

Repost: "Excuse me... This 'working class' thing- where can I meet some?"

bewilderedly,
Bright

[liberalmuse]

128. Evangelicals, aka "Fake Christians" overwhelmingly voted for Trump.

I am acquainted with a few of them. They are also racist, and oddly enough, a few of them are either drawing full disability or have drawn it in the past. They all tend to bring up how "Mexicans" and "immigrants" are ruining this country, even in the most mundane conversations. I'm not exaggerating. Racist, self-proclaimed "Christians" elected this goon. I hate to break it to them, but if Jesus existed, he probably looked more like Osama Bin Laden than Brad Pitt. I really do think Trump is their Bible's anti-Christ. He is despised by most people on the planet, but not by Evangelicals, and after all, the Biblical message is specifically for Christians. They might want to read "Revelations" a few more times.

My maternal family are all true blue collar working class. All my uncles vote straight Democratic ticket. My 98 year old grandma went to the polls Tuesday and voted. She also works at her local campaign office in Ohio. On the other side of the family, my upper middle class paternal aunt and her husband (former Mormon) vote Democratic as well. The only one in the family who voted for Trump is an Evangelical cousin who has really gone off the deep end (burying guns in the back yard to keep them safe from Pres. Obama). She wasn't even into guns or any of this stuff until she became "born again".

The bottom line is, many working class white people vote Democratic. Religious affiliation dictates more how people are going to vote than anything else. If anyone here has ever been to an Evangelical service, you've probably witnessed the pastor preaching right-wing politics from the pulpit. I know I have on more than a few occasions.

[BainsBane]

131. The working class is comprised overwhelmingly of people of color and women

The working class is not predominantly white and male as some politicians imply.

A majority of whites have not voted Democrat in a presidential election since 1964 . https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029819191
That is a fact. I'm white and a woman. White women also favor Republicans, and they did last night (51% for Guillespie). I don't vote with the majority of my demographic, and I'm okay with that. When voting data based on demographic factors is published, I don't consider it stereotyping. Those are demographic averages. That doesn't mean all people vote in keeping with those averages. I certainly don't.

That meme about the white working class suddenly moving from Dems to Trump is invoked to justify forcing the party to be recentered around the interests of white men. We have heard little since the election about how white men are forgotten and oppressed, despite the fact their average incomes are well above every other group except Asian men. I've raised the same point you have about Trump voters being more affluent than the Democratic voters, but it's been dismissed because it doesn't fit the convenient narrative advanced by some people's favorite politician. We've been told we have to stop prioritizing civil rights and reproductive rights because it makes the more important white male voters feel uncomfortable. Winning, we are told, requires abandoning the majority to promote the interests of white men. Toward that end, we see women of color targeted for removal from the GOP and elected office. The false narrative about white men voting for Dems until recently is invoked to justify those actions.

You don't have to be from a Democratic voting demographic to have your vote be important. You are just as important as any other voter. What you aren't is more important.

I get that you work hard, and the income you make, based on your post, is just below the national median. I have no doubt it's tough to make ends meet on that income if you have dependents. It is, however, significantly above that of people of color, who are the most reliable Democratic voters. My own income is just above the national median, and I have no dependents. I consider myself privileged in comparison to most Americans because I am.

Data isn't stereotyping. I agree with you about the white working class not being responsible for Trump's victory. As the figures in my linked post show, whites have voted for Republicans in every election since 1968. The percentages vary, but the majority always vote Republican. That isn't just working class either. It's all whites, including women.

[lark]

132. I don't get why you think we are talking about people like you.

We are talking about drumpf voters, haters and misogynists who are often white and lower to middle class or rich. I've been white & lower to upper middle class person all my life, yet I don't take it personally that so many white women voted for drumpf. It really irritates me a lot, but I'm not them and don't feel any kinship on this at all. Basically, we are calling out drumpf voters, if that's not you, why the offense?

[Honeycombe8]

133. I think the reason "they" say that is because the white working male group in 3 states....

or maybe four...that historically voted Democratic, supposedly flipped & voted for Trump, to get rid of the trade agreements, which directly meant that factories and businesses closed down in their states & moved to other countries.

See comments by Michael Moore, who had his finger on the pulse of those working class men in the rust belt states. He predicted they'd vote for Trump. He's from there, lives there, they're his friends, and they were really angry at the Democrats.

So I think that's why. It's not all white working men in all states. It's those rust belt states. Michigan, etc. Pennsylvania, too. A lot of union guys.

I think it also may be true that demographics of the votes showed that overall the Democrats had lost ground with the white working class male as a group. Not all of them. Maybe not most of them. But they'd lost ground with that group, is what I read.

So it doesn't include all of your group, and there's no reason to be angry. Don't shoot the messengers of the data.

I'm part of a demographic, too. My demographic votes one way or another. I may or may not fit the mold in any given election, but why would I be angry about that?

[Tarheel_Dem]

140. I, for one, am sick of to death of hearing about white male grievance, and this is just another....

example of it.

[TrollBuster9090]

142. Shockingly, income does not equal 'class.' The MSM just keeps assuming that

...the MSM keeps assuming that anybody who would dress like THIS just HAS to be a member of the 'working class.' My experience has been the opposite. People who dress like that most likely live in a rural $800,000 split level rancher, have two cars and a giant pickup truck, a time-share condo in Hawaii, a retirement family income of about $100,000 (ironically having made a fortune from FARM SUBSIDIES, or government construction contracts)...and STILL cash their Social Security check every month. The fact that you wear a t-shirt, jeans and a butt-brain cap doesn't mean you're not a 1%-er.

[MountCleaners]

144. Absolutely!!

Thank you!!

VERY familiar with this type, and in my experience, most of the Trump supporters I'm familiar with are like this. Some of them have ridiculous amounts of money, and having to struggle would be "embarrassing" to them. A lot of those Trumpees drive expensive trucks. I grew up working-class, and when I see their trucks I think, "who the hell did I know growing up who could afford THAT?"

[TrollBuster9090]

163. Yep, it's a soft prejudice of the media. Without doing actual research, they just assume that

...they just assume that everybody who dresses like a slob must be 'working class,' and that working class people must have trashy, xenophobic attitudes. My experience has been the exact opposite. People who do hard, unskilled labor for a low wage (the very definition of 'working class') tend to be some of the most tolerant people I know. It's a particular sect of the upper-middle class, who just happen to ACT in a trashy manner that is the problem.

[treestar]

143. Why not just vote their interests?

And not worry about how other people talk about them?

They vote for the likes of the Orange Toxin to get back at us for being mean to them? What kind of snowflakery is that?

[PatrickforO]

146. Tobin doesn't really need my help or support, perhaps, but I'd point this out:

Reagan seduced many working class whites away from the Democratic party, and for some reason the measures the Dems took to get them back didn't work. They became 'Reagan Republicans.' Remember that?

Then, Reagan allowed the Fairness Doctrine to die in 1987, which allowed the giant right-wing propaganda machine to take over AM talk radio, as well as Fox news.

Then, in 1993, NAFTA was signed into law. Many businesses, particularly manufacturing businesses shut down their US shops and moved overseas. In rural areas, these factory jobs were often the bread and butter for whole communities. So the factory closes, and what moves in? You guessed it. A Wal-Mart paying slave wages, and no benefits. A Wal-Mart that coaches its employees how to get welfare and food stamps as part of its employee orientation.

Now, the mostly white working class men and women who worked at that factory until it left have been forced to take much lower-paying jobs. No benefits. No economic security. Treated like shit. Unsafe working conditions.

Lives that used to be decent have turned into living hells. Big cuts in income and benefits have caused millions and millions of working class white people across this nation to go from being middle class people who worked hard and had some pride to working poor people who have to hard-scrabble for everything they have, and are fighting a losing battle every day. Medicine or food? Gas for the car or food? Many of the sons and daughters of the people who formed the post-WWII middle class that was the envy of the world are now living in grinding poverty with never enough.

Now, enter a con-man like Trump who promises to bring back those jobs. Who sows the seeds of fear and hatred towards immigrants because 'they're takin' your jobs.' Who openly criticizes 'free trade' agreements that serve large corporate interests but NOT the interests of American workers, and viola! You have a guy wearing a MAGA hat and spewing bullshit that he hasn't even thought through. His talk radio stations have made him hate Obama (and black people in general) 24/7 for the last 8 years and he has come to blame Obama (and black people and immigrants) for his miserable life.

This is the message, and as an economist who has been in workforce development for nearly 30 years, I will tell you this is a truth that is being experienced by people all across this nation. So you tell me...every one of these people are dog shit? Because that's what many of you seem to be saying.

Let me tell you people this, because this shit makes me fucking mad: If you don't believe me about how miserable fucking life is in a capitalist shit-hole if you have a low-pay job with no benefits, then TRY IT. And, for all the big-dog Dems who read these posts, pay attention to what I'm saying.

IF YOU WANT TO GET THESE VOTES BACK AND START WINNING ELECTIONS, LIKE WE DID A COUPLE DAYS AGO, TALK ABOUT KITCHEN TABLE ISSUES. And lay off the cut-downs for ignorance, etc. Most of these people are racist because they have been propagandized by the capitalists that fund talk radio, Fox and an increasing number of red websites. Why? Read your Chomsky. Divide and conquer has been used against the working class by the rich for centuries and centuries.

So, let's quit cutting down working class people and start educating them about what's really what, and about how Democrats are better for them than Republicans, which they are. And then, when you get elected, BE better than the Republicans for the working class. And don't give me some shit about how I'm wrong because the Dems have ALWAYS been for the working class. The truth is that for the last few decades, the Democratic party has been lukewarm at best toward working class issues.

So flame away.

[Iggo]

147. I don't care why they're racist. (n/t)

[PatrickforO]

148. Great, so you're gonna do...what?

You ever had anyone hate you because of who you are? Judging by your signature line, you have.

But what creates that? They don't know you as a human being, right? That's why desegregation and integration worked. People got close to each other and learned we aren't so different after all. Hard to hate someone you know.

That's just what dirt-bags like Limbaugh and Rosen and all the others are paid to do. Promote hate. Divide us. They LOVE it when we Dems spew hatred at non-college educated white guys, because now they can say, hey, we told you so!

I'm not saying we need to sing kum-bay-ah all the time, either. But what I am saying is people have to be taught to hate. Education is the first line of battle against that hatred.

[Iggo]

149. "...so you're gonna do...what?"

About what, exactly?

[JI7]

169. they say the NFL Stands for "N...... for Life"

fuck them

[Awsi Dooger]

151. Sorry, this link reveals the uncomfortable truth

It was posted here yesterday but mostly ignored:

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/democracy/reports/2017/11/01/441926/voter-trends-in-2016/

* The 2016 electorate was considerably more white than reported in the national exit poll: 73.7% compared to 71%

* The white college educated slice of the vote was overstated in exit polls, and the white working class percentage was considerably understated

* 64% of registered whites without a college degree turned out in 2016, compared to 61% in 2016. That demographic shifted sharply to Trump. Hillary's margin in the popular vote would have gone up .6% if those working class whites had turned out in 2012 numbers and not their 2016 numbers

***

Naturally in a tight election any number of variables can be isolated as the tipping point. White working class voters were certainly among them. The dramatic shift right among that demographic was glaring as early as 2014. There were countless ominous online articles toward 2016. I read them and it was the reason I always expected Hillary to lose a close election in 2016. Only after the GOP nominated Trump did I start to think Hillary had a legitimate chance, and once Trump imploded I spent the final three months expecting Hillary to narrowly prevail.

Unless we get the white vote back up to 39 or 40% favoring Democrats instead of 37% or lower, it means big problems. You can't surrender that type of margin among a demographic so large and influential

I'm sure there are white liberals all over Utah who don't like the way their state's politics are portrayed. If it were merely theoretical instead of tested by numbers time and again the argument would hold some relevance.

[raven mad]

152. This white working class chick has never voted for a sTrumpet.

Or any Republican.

My white working-class husband never has, either. Nor have any of our white working-class friends. We are poor, but dammit, we are MEAN!

[AJT]

153. I think the question is this: if people voted for 45 because he supported

the working class then why did a majority of working class hispanics, african american and other working class minorities vote for Clinton? White males are not the only hard working people in this country. It seems like there was a lot of resentment behind the white vote. The Democratic platform contains a lot of support for minority interests but the core of the platform has always been support for working people no matter race, etc. It seems that a lot of white people don't understand how systemic and institutionalized racism and sexism have been, and that those issues need attention too(identity politics). Just because other issues are important to democrats doesn't mean that the increasing difficulties of the working class are being ingnored. I do think that concentrating on the needs of the working class would help everyone.....wages, healthcare, childcare, education. We just need to make sure everyone has access to those things.

[NNadir]

168. I belong to the demographic of old fat bald white man. I've actually had people look at me...

...and assume I'm a racist Trump type. My whole life there have been awful people who assumed it was OK to say horrible racist, sexist, and elitist crap to me, except perhaps, when I was very young.

When I was young, I was way lower middle class, and I recall times when I wasn't sure that I'd be able to make it through a week with food to eat. I have worked as a day laborer.

But really, with due sympathy for your righteous anger, I think you should fuggettaboutit. I know who I am, and surely you know who you are.

If someone makes an assumption about you, correct them in the best case, walk away when you have to, or simply ignore them.

You can do that.