So Franken was probably set up. Same could be true for Moore

[Tom Rinaldo]

In Moore's case the accusers had nothing to do with any set up. In Franken's case, she probably did. Yes the Washington Post reporters themselves tracked down the women molested by Moore, and through solid reporting, were able to empower them to share their stories. But who alerted the press to the fact that the story could be out there, decades after the events and shortly before a critical election? Yes that aspect could have political roots, but the charges still stand on their own. That is the relevant reality, not why the story saw the light of day when and how it did.

In Franken's case I strongly suspect that the accuser was encouraged to share her story when she did, to some extent because of all the attention being given to sexual harassment in general, but also for timely political reasons. But if her story is true the event she revealed still stands on it's own for consideration. Franken, in his public apology, did not vouch for the 100% accuracy of every detail she recalled about what happened. But he did apologize for his behavior with deep, and I believe sincere, regret. So I accept that Tweeden did experience genuine sexual harassment at the time, and that she did in some way feel violated by her experience with Franken.

Things sometimes come to light when they do for strictly political reasons. And that makes politically convenient revelations suspect. But that in itself doesn't prove them false. Political take downs can be based on either fact or fiction. In the case of Moore I think the facts justify the repercussions Moore is facing regardless of why the story came out now. In Franken's case I accept his public apology in which he expresses heart felt regret, which is something Moore will never do regardless of the number of lives he has damaged. But accepting Franken's apology also means accepting that he had something that he needed to apologize for.

The discretions both men committed are not even remotely comparable. Moore should have spent years in prison for what he did. Franken may well be formally rebuked by the Senate. If so he is not the only member of Congress who deserves at least public censure for instances of sexual harassment. THAT is the true double standard at play now. That and all attempts to equate what Moore and Franken did.

[Greybnk48]

1. Yep, Moore was set up.

First they built that High School, then the dang Mall full of kids, then the YMCA, then then they went and let him browse through divorce cases looking for vulnerable kids.

A TOTAL SET UP!!

[Tom Rinaldo]

3. I hope you are not intentionally misunderstanding me

Moore was a pedophile. His own actions should have resulted in jail time. Any consequences he now suffers will never pay for what he did. He and he alone is responsible for his deeds. The only "set up" I am referring to is the timing of when the truth about his life came to light. It is possible that some sources with political connections knew about his past for quite some time, but chose to bring it to the attention of the press now to destroy his campaign for the Senate. Even if true it does not change the facts. Moore is a pedophile who can't be jailed now because the cases are too old, but a pedophile he remains and it is absolutely fitting that at the very minimum that was revealed and hopefully his career destroyed as a result.

[Greybnk48]

9. I was mocking the people defending Moore, not you Tom.

Poor timing for my sarcasm as your post is serious and thoughtful. Sorry. Do you want me to delete it?

[Tom Rinaldo]

10. No please leave it

Especially with your explanation I think it adds positively to the discussion.

[Hortensis]

20. The WaPo says they became aware when a WaPo journalist

who was in Alabama working on a story about Moore was told some of this stuff that supposedly everyone in his town knew. After that, I believe they sent something like 10 investigative reporters to Alabama, whose findings were then subjected to editorial review to see if they met the paper's strict guidelines for stories like this. When the story finally did and was agreed believed to be truthful, ethical and responsible, it was published.

Extremely different from springing this woman, who's been on Fox, including Hannity's show, and supports what today's Republican Party is up to, out of nowhere to make her accusations. Right in time to distract from the enormous crime taking place in Congress.

[Tom Rinaldo]

22. I agree that it is very different

I believe Franken's accuser was motivated to share her story due to political considerations. That was not the case with Moore's accusers, and who knows if political considerations factored at all into why folks in Moore's town spoke to national media reporters when they did as opposed to earlier in Moore's career. As true as all that is, personal conduct remains personal conduct. When it is criminal, when it is deplorable, or when it is merely regrettable, it remains what it is. I can't have a double standard about that, but I will stand up against attempts to create false equivalencies where they do not exist. Even taking the accusations against Franken totally at face value, there is still no basis for asking him to resign form the Senate, and Moore should never be allowed in it.

[Hortensis]

24. Yes! Cons who insist it was equally bad or worse for the Democrat

are lost causes anyway, terminally partisan.

But I'm guessing many drawn to pay attention by the prurient subjects will have little trouble seeing some of the significant differences. People don't need a degree in economics to be able to relate this to their own experiences. And, notably, by definition those pretty much rule out the kind of zealous feminists who are as righteously eager to see Franken destroyed as Hannity's crowd.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

27. I get your point... it's a good one!

[edhopper]

25. It came out now

because being a candidate for the Senate a national News outlet like the WP took time to look at him.
News in Alabama looked the other way.
It is that simple, no conspiracy needed.

[Madam45for2923]

8. Oh no I feel bad for Moore!

The set-up is just not fair!

[Ninga]

2. Or, an Ethics Hearing may disclose he was a Juvenal asshole, with bad judgement.

How can he be censured for behavior before he was elected?

[hedda_foil]

47. Did you mean juvenile? I looked up Juvenal and found ...

Juvenal - PBS
www.pbs.org/empires/romans/empire/juvenal.html
The last great Roman satirist, Juvenal (c.55 – 127 AD) became famous for his savage wit and biting descriptions of life in Rome. The invisible man. Little is known of Juvenal's life beyond his satire. His name only appears once, in a poem written to him by his friend, Martial. It is believed that Juvenal was born to a prosperous ...

[/div class="excerpt"]

[sarah FAILIN]

4. I have friends in Gadsden

It was well known among the locals, they just never thought they needed to tell us since everyone already knew.

[Tom Rinaldo]

7. Mind boggling, isn't it?

Did they assume that Alabama voters outside their town also knew? I wonder who finally tipped off the press, and why they did so when they did.

[questionseverything]

35. they live with their dirty lil secrets

Former AL Gov. Don Siegelman Says Media Ignoring Details of His 'Electronically Stolen' 2002 Election
Has Given Story to 60 Minutes, Dan Abrams, LA Times, WaPo...All Have Failed to Report His Allegations While Covering Other Aspects of His Story...

http://bradblog.com/?p=5889

from the article...

Mark, I mention the vote stealing in every interview. 60 Minutes cut it out. Don Abrams didn't want to go there either. I have told the story to the Washington Post and LA Times.
he hook is Rove's fingerprints are found there too. First, in that Rove's friend Jack Abramoff hires Dan Gans,was in charge of " electronic ballot security" in Baldwin County, Alabama,where the votes were stolen. Gans, working for the Alexander Strategies Group, claims credit for the win on his website, which he then takes down when Abramoff gets arrested. The second is Rove's business partner, Kitty Mc Cullough (a/k/a Kelly Kimbrough) is given credit for the electronic vote switch by the state Republican Party.

[leftynyc]

26. And it never occurred to them

that they should have spoken out and gotten him arrested to keep him from harassing and manhandling other teenagers?

[sarah FAILIN]

33. The common theme seems to be

"I thought it was just me" with those women.

Knowing he is a creep that tries to get young girls to have sex isn't the same as knowing he touched a 14 yr old which is the only one illegal. The ones he was rough with were scared to tell from what I understood. The age of consent is 16 so what people knew of wasn't illegal, just perverted.

[Lil Missy]

5. Franken was not set up. that would mean he was entrapped into doing what he did. He has been exposed

To be clear, I love Franken, and I'm not trying to persuade others to be harsh on him.

[Caliman73]

18. Words matter. I agree that "set up" is not the right term.

The correct term is more likely a "hit job", meaning that while the behavior may have occurred or was at least perceived in the way it has been reported, the motivation for the report is likely political and appears to be (from recent reporting) orchestrated between Roger Stone, Sean Hannity, and the accuser.

[Lil Missy]

19. Agreed.

[Tom Rinaldo]

23. Me too. n/t

[rzemanfl]

28. Ratfucking is the appropriate word. n/t

[Caliman73]

45. That is definitely the word that defines the political tactic.

I have no argument against that.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

30. I get your point... it's a fair one. Love Franken too btw... so bummed to see this happen.

[brush]

37. We don't know that yet. More still to come on this story. It was an apparent hit job on Franken...

though.

As far as a set-up, we need the facts on the obviously staged photo and on the kiss, as Franken has said he remembers the kiss rehearsal differently than her.

[Kaleva]

6. I wouldn't be surprised if it was McConnell

[TheDebbieDee]

11. Was Franken banned from the mall, er, ugh, the USO Tour?

[Tom Rinaldo]

14. Did you actually read what I wrote?

Let me simplify it. Franken fully apologized, he does not deny inappropriate behavior of the sort described by his accuser. She should not be attacked over sharing a part of life story that Franken admits to, even if political considerations entered into the picture.

An attempt is being made by the right to discredit the women who revealed Moore to be a pedophile because the revelation was made at a time when it had significant political ramifications and therefor they argue for it to be dismissed as a hit job.

That is a bogus reason to discredit real transgressions accurately reported. Against either man. We should not play into that game. Having said that there is virtually no comparison whatsoever between what Moore and Franken were accused of doing. I made that clear in my OP, and again in subsequent comments.

[TheDebbieDee]

17. No, I did not read your dissertation...

And there's no need for you to get HUFFY!

Maybe deeply introspective, life-altering posts like yours belong on a personal blog or something.

Have a nice day...

[Tom Rinaldo]

21. It's true, I don't write Tweets. Literally, I don't

And I have nothing against you. Based on your post I just thought you hadn't read mine. Ignore me or differ with me, but as a rule I find it best to read what one disagrees with first.

[MFM008]

12. this

I believe she looked at this picture, (he is NOT touching her) and it made her angry and she is a partisan, she thought I can MILK this situation and perhaps take out a Liberal democrat senator.
He apologizes to her for feeling affronted by the awkward fumbling stupidity.
He apologizes to the USO troop as well,
I presume he did not sexually victimize any of them, he apologized because it was the right
thing to do.
So a raging liberal is going to put his career and reputation into the greedy little hands of a
right wing hack ?
No sorry, this is a right wing Roger Stone hit job.
A he said she said to try to remove
an annoying liberal from the Senate.
Then maggot ices the cake last night about where Frankens hands were in other pictures.
The aggressive pussy grabbing rapist golden shower boy

NEED I SAY MORE??????????????????????????????

[Tom Rinaldo]

15. For the record

The accusation against Franken was not confined to that photo. It included reports of a forceful unwanted kiss and continued dismissive behavior toward her after that kiss was rebuffed. I wasn't there so I can offer no witness testimony. We all only have her and Franken's statements now to go on, and Franken has not attacked her credibility.

What does that have to do with the obvious to both of us fact that both Trump and Moore deserve to be in prison? Every incident of sexual harassment is individual - they are not cookie cutter in nature nor are all of them equally serious. I accept that Franken acted in an inappropriate manner. I accept that Moore acted in a criminal manner. And if Trump lived in a glass house it should be shattered by a thousand boulders.

[Nevernose]

31. Not true

It included reports of a consensual kiss during a stage rehearsal which she found icky and was therefore not repeated. That’s HER version, which Franken denies. The “dismissive behavior” apparently consisted of defacing a picture of her with devil horns during an autograph signing.

The picture debunks her groping story just fine on it’s own.

This is clearly a RW hit job, done by an actual RW media personality in conjunction with multiple other professional ratfuckers like Roger Stone. You’re being played.

[dogman]

13. Franken did not do this while in the Senate.

Based on prior cases, the Senate has no cause for action. I have no problem with the voters deciding in both cases. The transfer from a patriarchal society will not be easy or precise.

[solara]

16. Hear! Hear!

"The transfer from a patriarchal society will not be easy or precise."

This is exactly it.

Thank you

[leftynyc]

29. Well, that was the excuse the

senate ethics committee used NOT to investigate Sen Vitter - his outtings with hookers while wearing diapers apparently happened while he was still in the House. If they're consistent, they wont investigate Sen Franken. We'll see.

[brooklynite]

36. Roy Moore didn't do this in the Senate either...

...but nobody here would object to the Senate taking action against him.

I don't think Franken should be removed because the incident isn't as serious, he apologized and the apology has been accepted.

Bearing in mind that nobody in the Senate has suggested he should step down or be expelled...

[C_U_L8R]

32. One is a misguided prank

The other is chronic record of pedophilia.
Equivalent? Republicans hope you think so.

[misanthrope]

38. Technically, it's not pedophilia

It is hebephilia and ephebophilia.

[C_U_L8R]

40. Thanks for clarifying :-)

[saidsimplesimon]

34. Really Tom?

NO, "Same could be true for Moore", I don't believe it. There is room for improvement in Democrats electing the best to represent US. There is NO moral equivalency here. imo

[Tom Rinaldo]

44. Absolutely no equivalency in conduct, agreed

Whether or not some people chose to reveal something that they knew because of political timing could be true in both cases. That is all I said. The events being looked at are very very very different

[moriah]

39. Franken has handled this with transparency.

Tweeden herself said in the Tapper interview that she believed he sincerely meant what he said in his public statement.

That the fact he found it "funny" to take such a "gag photo" wasn't necessarily indicating he was The Worst Human Being On The Planet, but an indication of the culture we live in. One that still thinks a woman who chooses to show her body on occasion (and the many many many other women assaulted who are dressed as modestly as Quiverfullers) doesn't have a right to choices, boundaries, or deserve to be treated with respect.

I noticed in that interview she was full on attack mode then Tapper read the statement and that's when she changed her tune. And said that she wasn't asking for any investigation despite Al asking for one. He fed her a reason for her sudden change of tune, that she just wanted an apology.

But it's not entirely impossible either, especially if she knew what happened was not high up there compared to chasing underage girls, or having a direct supervisor/hiring manager do something.

I'm still not ruling out that she's completely full of shit about the backstage bullshit given she didn't even say anything like "He sure must record memory differently, I guess, but..." before accepting his apology.

But Franken called not only her bluff, but the entire bluff this was about (other than the tax bill vote) -- he's willing to testify and be investigated. Will the Senate now hear Beverly Young Nelson's testimony?

[L. Coyote]

41. Trump was set up too. There was someone recording his words! Fucking Pussy Grabber.

Trump's problem is he is proud of being a GrOPer.

All the Women Who Said Donald Trump Sexually Assaulted Them

[Joe941]

42. I don't understand why Franken apologized...

this is clearly a set up as you so aptly pointed out. He should have just called it a setup up and moved on.

[OnDoutside]

43. I can understand why. Whether he took the photo with her compliance or not, it is being judged thru

the prism of today's #metoo bandwagon. He did the right thing in apologizing for it being in bad taste. All the rest can be teased out in a "less pressurized" ethics investigation.

[loyalsister]

46. Digging up dirt and trying to score political points is nothing new in politics

Democrats look for dirt and welcome it when it works for us and they do as well. It's unfortunate and inconvenient for us that there was something to find. But, dirty tricks are a well known element of politics.

[DFW]

48. One thing I absolutely do NOT believe

Is this: "that she did in some way feel violated by her experience with Franken."

That whole gig was fun and games and posed gags etc. Look at Tweeden's behavior on stage on that tour. I'm sure she saw everything now "revealed" a thousand times, and laughed at it along with everyone else on the tour. This is James O'Keefe style "reporting." Take innocuous stuff completely out of context, out of time, and turn it into something it never was.

I protest at Franken being even remotely compared to Moore because Moore's intentions were predatory and completely without the consent of his victims, who were very much intimidated into silence. I don't see Tweeden as a victim, but rather as a willing participant. More so even, than Lewinsky, as no affair or physical intimacy was attempted or even hinted at, unless one includes Tweeden's onstage antics. As a musician, I will also add that a lead guitarist, no matter HOW good, does not appreciate his ass being grabbed during a vocal or a solo on stage. Tweeden thought this was a perfectly legit gag. Her posing with Franken for the photo was "worse?" Only on Fox Noise.

The only thing I find objectionable in this whole episode is that Franken allowed himself to be talked into an apology to a willing participant in a comedy gag. That's like one of the Three Stooges apologizing to another for having thrown a pie in his face when it was part of the script they all had a hand in writing.

And if comedians suddenly now need to apologize for jokes in poor taste made eleven years after the fact, the line of Republicans waiting outside the Obama residence should stretch all the way to Pittsburgh.