What has DU come to we have numerous posts excusing alleged sexual misconduct

[oberliner]

Just because said conduct is alleged to have been committed by a Democrat.

[ret5hd]

1. Wrong. Again.

[heaven05]

9. as usual

nothing new

[bagelsforbreakfast]

74. +1

[wasupaloopa]

2. Ok bring out your moral compass so we can all live by it

[oberliner]

4. Don't forcibly kiss women against their will

Can we agree on that?

[arthritisR_US]

26. He did not admit to that, he apologized for the picture.

[oberliner]

34. So you think she is lying?

[arthritisR_US]

41. I definitely think she is lying.

[oberliner]

43. Is it because of her politics that you think she is lying?

Or is there some other reason?

[arthritisR_US]

46. There are a number of reasons, her politics are

the least.

[oberliner]

48. What are some of the top reasons?

[arthritisR_US]

53. Her interviews, the USO video of the actual event,

testimonials from those who were actually there and from other women who have worked with him, his demand for an ethics investigation and her not wanting one.

[oberliner]

58. Do you have a link to the USO video of the actual event?

I've been looking for that online with no success.

[arthritisR_US]

62. It was posted on DU this morning in GD.

[womanofthehills]

143. She was on Hannity's show FOR A WHOLE YEAR

Hanging out with liars!!!

Link to tweet

[treestar]

90. Her politics give her a motive to lie

and we know Republicans are not above that.

She is probably exaggerating.

No one mentioned the politics of Moore's or the Orange Toxin's victims. They were not already involved in right-wing media.

[arthritisR_US]

132. Exactly, her motives are highly questionable.

[pandr32]

60. Yep--I think so as well

[Demsrule86]

73. I think she is lying too.

[Control-Z]

68. He kissed her forcefully.

He didn't assault her or force her to kiss him without permission. She agreed to it. She said as much.

There's a difference. If we make this the litmus test for sexual assault we're in trouble. Women who really are sexually assaulted will be hurt the most.

I read in several places today that there's a whole list of Democrats who will be outed for sexual assault in the coming weeks. No Republicans. Things really are beginning to smell fishy to me. What are the odds that the republicans are behaving and the Democrats are the real animals? Sounds like the "Hillary colluded with the Russian's" defense.

[wasupaloopa]

61. Look we are all aware of what we should do

We don't need to be told how to live

[Demsrule86]

72. No...she was being paid to do a job as an actress...if she didn't want to kiss him which was in the

show don't take the job...and I think she is lying period.

[Alice11111]

121. She said dhe finally agreed to the kiss for practicing the skit.

I heard her in 2 different interviews.

It was. A kiss for a skit which Al Franken had done many times. Not a rape

[womanofthehills]

131. I wonder if this photo was against her will too?

Link to tweet

[customerserviceguy]

136. This was consensual by both parties

What I observe here is another version of, "Well, if she didn't want this to happen, she shouldn't have dressed like that."

Plays right into the hands of the Republicons.

[moriah]

18. Don't be a juvenile immature asshat, in Franken's case.

He's denied the backstage allegations, so I'm going with what he's admitted to.

And yes, taking a picture like that while someone is asleep is the same immature juvenile asshat behavior exemplified by drawing a dick on the face of the first person to fall asleep at a sleepover.

Maybe he never woke up to that as a teenager and had to scrub marker off his face, and maybe he was never one who did it then to someone else so never had the person wake up and throttle him for it. But it wasn't funny in Jr High, and isn't funny now.

Now, this in no way is saying that immature juvenile asshats should have investigative priority over asshats who force immature juveniles.

[wasupaloopa]

124. It gets me that some here the need to tell

the rest of us how to live as if we lack something that that the superior being thinks it has.

[moriah]

125. You asked, I answered. Offended easily? Nt

[wasupaloopa]

140. Not offended st all just don't think folks like you

need to show your insecurity by preaching to us.

It's called the reaction formation. Something you don't like about yourself you project on others. Very well known thing

[Kingofalldems]

3. False.

[questionseverything]

67. i wish people were half as interested in the actual counting of votes

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029860272

[Big Blue Marble]

5. That is the disturbing question.

I have watched the amazing excuses offered to protect those "on our side."
There seems little awareness of the irony of mocking the supporters of Moore
and bending over backwards to "protect our own."

The issue of sexual misconduct has to be beyond party or tribe. This is about
the humanity of half the human race. It is time that we set the example to our
country and the world that we are committed to supporting women's right
to free agency of their bodies and that men can no longer use their power
for the benefit of their sexual predation

[oberliner]

6. Thanks for this post

I really appreciate the brave souls who have taken this principled stand.

[Irish_Dem]

13. Exactly, well stated. nt

[Atticus]

100. When we mention facts which tend to cast doubt on Ms. Tweeden's account, you say we are

making "excuses".

When we call attention to some of the---no other way to say it---loony religious CRAP spewed by Moore's "Christians", you say we are "mocking" them.

And, when we say that, given the previous record of Al Franken and the wide general impression here that he is an honorable man who is a dependable voice for disadvantaged people of all stripes, you accuse us of "bending over backwards to protect one of our own".

I think most of us would say that, if leaning towards accepting the account of someone we feel we know and like as opposed to blindly accepting the accusations of someone we do not know and who, yes, has chosen to associate herself with people and causes which are, by their nature, dishonest and mean-spirited, is "bending over backwards" to support Franken, we sure as hell plead guilty.

As a bonus observation, you and several others posting recently appear to have WAY to much time on your hands.

[Cattledog]

105. +1000

[Big Blue Marble]

117. What do you mean we have too much time on our hands?

Because your excuses are less loony than Moore's supporters, does not justify your
response. Senator Franken has acknowledged his wrong doing and wisely asked for
an investigation. That should be enough for us who support him; it is for me.

I pray no one else comes forth to share other stories. And he will remain in the senate,
because we desperately need him there. In the meantime, attacking his accuser only
weakens our position when the next Republican is charged with creepy sexual behavior.

I want us to be consistent and not defensive clearly signaling that we will not tolerate
sexual misbehavior no matter the predator's political or religious affiliations.

By casting doubt on Ms Tweeden's narrative, you are casting doubt on our effectiveness
to make this our issue going forward. Like Caesar's wife, we must be above reproach.

Those who attack Ms Tweeden are falling into the Republicans trap.

[crosinski]

110. You are disturbed because many here are not reacting in the way you want them to ...

... about a subject you care deeply about. However, you have no control over how other people think or how they choose to act. Nevertheless, we're still on the same side. We're all liberals and Democrats.

[Big Blue Marble]

115. Of course I have not control how others think.

I will speak my truth regardless of others disagree and they are free to speak theirs.
I am on the side of justice for all especially those who do not have the power to speak
or are shut down when they do. (This value is to me the most important aspect of being
a liberal.)

For far too long women and men have just absorbed the abuse large and small that comes
from male sexual predation. These men come from every belief and political alignment.

When they are "our" men. I will hold them to the same account that I hold those men
whom I do not agree with. It is painful to watch men I have held in high esteem being
outed. It is far more painful to hear the repressed stories of their victims finally coming
into the light of day. They deserve our respect and our support.

[crosinski]

119. So, when others don't think as you do, maybe you can give them room for that.

Last edited Sat Nov 18, 2017, 08:36 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't give Franken's accuser the same credence as I do to Moore's accuser. That's based on what I know about repugs and how they love to pit liberals against each other with games like this. I've seen it happen too many times not to be suspicious now. I'm a liberal and a Democrat and I totally support women being heard and believed, but not absolutely in every instance, because nothing is ever absolute, and because of repug traps.

So I'm still on your side, but I'm not reacting to this situation the way you are. I think there's room for both of our views in DU's discourse in general, but your original post's wording was rather exclusionary of anyone not holding your views.

[greeny2323]

7. Bullshit

I will independently judge each case separately. No one can force me not to.

Sadly, there are some who insist on immediate judgment based on gender, violating core principles of the Constitution.

[Irish_Dem]

16. Yes nt

[Tansy_Gold]

17. Immediate judgment and

summary execution for any and all alleged crimes.

[MFM008]

8. I don't believe her

She's exaggerated it for political gain.
I would say the same thing if it was a Republican under similar circumstance.

[arthritisR_US]

35. I dont believe her either. Just because Im a woman doesnt mean

I’m not going to judge each case by their merits.

[MFM008]

137. i am as well

And your right.

[arthritisR_US]

138. Shes the selfish female who makes true victims that much

harder to be believed.

[pbmus]

10. A consensual kiss is not misconduct...

Just because she didn’t like the kiss...

and a joke picture (however not funny) is not groping...

Al has apologized and is asking for and received ethics committee hearing....

ENOUGH SAID..

[oberliner]

15. It wasn't consensual

He repeated that actors really need to rehearse everything and that we must practice the kiss. I said ‘OK’ so he would stop badgering me. We did the line leading up to the kiss and then he came at me, put his hand on the back of my head, mashed his lips against mine and aggressively stuck his tongue in my mouth.

I immediately pushed him away with both of my hands against his chest and told him if he ever did that to me again I wouldn’t be so nice about it the next time.

I walked away. All I could think about was getting to a bathroom as fast as possible to rinse the taste of him out of my mouth.

I felt disgusted and violated.

Not long after, I performed the skit as written, carefully turning my head so he couldn’t kiss me on the lips.

[pbmus]

21. I said OK so he would stop badgering me. ..

That is consent.....

She did not like the kiss....

[oberliner]

24. No, she did not consent to have him stick his tongue into her mouth

She consented to rehearse the scene, assuming, as any reasonable person would, that a stage kiss for a USO comedy skit (especially one being done in a rehearsal) would not involve a tongue being forcibly stuck down one's throat.

That was done against her will, as she very clearly states.

Many women are pressured into eventually saying "OK" to things that they do not actually want to do because they feel badgered or otherwise coerced. It is extremely disturbing that anyone cannot see that what happened here was not consensual.

[pbmus]

29. In her own words said ok to rehearsing a kiss...

She did not enjoy the kiss.

[oberliner]

40. This has got to be a parody

I cannot fathom that someone actually can believe the things that you are writing here.

[pbmus]

49. Parody...

A parody (/ˈpærədi/; also called a spoof, send-up, take-off, or lampoon) is a work created to imitate, make fun of, or comment on an original work—its subject, author, style, or some other target—by means of satiric or ironic imitation. As the literary theorist Linda Hutcheon puts it, "parody … is imitation, not always at the expense of the parodied text." Another critic, Simon Dentith, defines parody as "any cultural practice which provides a relatively polemical allusive imitation of another cultural production or practice."[1] Parody may be found in art or culture, including literature, music (although "parody" in music has an earlier, somewhat different meaning than for other art forms), animation, gaming, and film.

The writer and critic John Gross observes in his Oxford Book of Parodies, that parody seems to flourish on territory somewhere between pastiche ("a composition in another artist's manner, without satirical intent&quot and burlesque (which "fools around with the material of high literature and adapts it to low ends&quot .[2] Meanwhile, the Encyclopédie of Denis Diderot distinguishes between the parody and the burlesque, "A good parody is a fine amusement, capable of amusing and instructing the most sensible and polished minds; the burlesque is a miserable buffoonery which can only please the populace."[3] Historically, when a formula grows tired, as in the case of the moralistic melodramas in the 1910s, it retains value only as a parody, as demonstrated by the Buster Keaton shorts that mocked that genre.[4]

Hmmm...potentially true...if, when someone says yes but means no...

[ClarendonDem]

88. I had a few posts arguing that Dems were hypocrites for excusing Franken's behavior

And ended up accused of being a "troll" or Republican. Apparently many on DU are no longer concerned about principles, but espouse the tribal mentality I'd expect from Fox News fans.

[pbmus]

91. Only on Saturday in the middle of November...

Can I be accused of being a Fox News fan...

[ClarendonDem]

94. No idea if you are a Fox News fan or not

But I'd expect Fox News fans to downplay sexual assault allegations from their preferred politician, be it Trump, Moore or someone else.

[pbmus]

97. Facts are difficult for Fox News fans ...

Sounds like your interpretation of a French kiss and hands not touching boobs is sexual assault....


NOT..NO....NOT REALLY...Look up Anita Hill...

[ClarendonDem]

98. Right

Sounds like you'll excuse Franken, regardless of his behavior. I'll move on now.

[pbmus]

99. You dont have to move on, I just put you on ignore...

[arthritisR_US]

139. Smart move.

[woolldog]

33. It was consensual.

I dont expect Franken or anyone else to be able to read minds. She said ok. Not liking it after she said ok doesn't make it no longer consensual.

[oberliner]

38. No it wasn't

You don't expect Franken to read minds?

Under no circumstance does it make sense to stick ones tongue in another person's mouth as part of a "rehearsal" for a USO comedy skit.

There is no scenario where you would stick your tongue in someone's mouth in a rehearsal for a scene of any kind unless you spoke to the other actor first and confirmed with them that were comfortable with you doing so.

[pbmus]

51. Not sure the length of the thrust of the tongue...

But she clearly didn’t like it...

[Denzil_DC]

71. OK, let's go down this rabbit hole for a moment.

Maybe it was a prank.

Maybe Franken intended to surprise her by slipping some tongue (I doubt the "down the throat thing", but I'll allow for hyperbole; or maybe he should be more popular with the ladies - to joke in as bad taste as Franken may have) - for comedic effect. Adrenalin high, on tour, joshing around, stupider things happen in improv.

Maybe he expected her to go "Yuk!", recoil and spit a bit, then thwack him a good 'un while laughing and calling him an asshole, and that would be that. Maybe he misjudged the impact.

Or maybe none of it or all of it happened, who the fuck knows?

[treestar]

96. why do you believe her so faithfully?

He did not recall it that way. And there is no proof.

[liberal_patriot_md]

102. We only have her word.

She used the most hyperbolic and outrageous descriptions as possible in her statement. Most egregious is her description of the photo - she says he’s grabbing her breasts. I don’t care if you think there’s contact or not. Or if you accept he was groping. But he was definitely not grabbing her breasts through the Kevlar vest.

[riverwalker]

104. Theres a bunch of videos of her

Jumping up on guys wrapping her legs around them and grinding. One with her and Robin Williams has him pretending to zip up his pants afterwards. That is the context of the USO shows. It was not a dramatic school PTA play, it was a comedy skit with sexual overtones for the troops. That’s the context.

[Denzil_DC]

135. If any of those guys make a complaint (well, apart from Williams), wake me up.

If she did that unwelcome offstage or somebody did something unwelcome to her offstage, that would be another matter. If one of them didn't like it, they'd have grounds for complaint.

[Denzil_DC]

32. "I said OK so he would stop badgering me ..."

That sounds like coercion, not consent.

Not good, but not a hanging offense.

[pbmus]

37. Coercion...

Coercion /koʊˈɜːrʃən/ is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of intimidation or threats or some other form of pressure or force.[1] It involves a set of various types of forceful actions that violate the free will of an individual to induce a desired response, for example: a bully demanding lunch money from a student or the student gets beaten. These actions may include, but are not limited to: extortion, blackmail, torture, threats to induce favors, or even sexual assault. In law, coercion is codified as a duress crime. Such actions are used as leverage, to force the victim to act in a way contrary to their own interests. Coercion may involve the actual infliction of physical pain/injury or psychological harm in order to enhance the credibility of a threat. The threat of further harm may lead to the cooperation or obedience of the person being coerced.

Hmmmm. Not really..

[Denzil_DC]

47. Badgering: "repeatedly and annoyingly ask (someone) to do something"

A question of degree, surely.

A seasoned male performer (reportedly) badgering a rookie (to USO work) female performer in a foreign and potentially dangerous land getting ready for performances among rambunctious crowds - there's a potential power imbalance there that could rise to "or some other form of pressure", or worse, "intimidation".

I think Franken would recognize that even if you don't.

[pbmus]

69. So the story has gone from...

I was forcibly tongue kissed without my permission and groped involuntarily....

To, ‘I said OK to a kiss, and he took a picture with his hands at my breasts without my permission. And we are looking at an ethics violation in the most corrupt administration in the history of USA politics...

[Denzil_DC]

79. Well, Franken chose to make it an ethics issue.

It may be his smartest move.

It may show what a storm in a teacup it is, given Tweeden's acceptance of his apology. It may heighten the contrast with the corruption you mention.

It's not my story. But don't tell me that no woman has ever felt coerced by a man without actually being threatened with violence.

That's a very narrow, self-serving and non-real-world interpretation of coercion.

[pbmus]

82. True...and Clarence (the pervert) Thomas is a primo example...

[Denzil_DC]

83. *Shudder*

Thanks a pantload. I hadn't thought about Clarence for a while.

[pbmus]

84. We must all revisit Clarence and ask ourselves WHY ...

Is this man serving on our highest court...?

This travesty of justice was a starter for many other gross and more gross sexual transgressions in our politics and civilian life.

[Denzil_DC]

85. Well, it's not MY court (I'm in Scotland),

but I'm married to an American, and we over here get the backwash from whatever goes on in the US.

[mythology]

39. That is absolutely not consent

Consent isn't badgering or imposing on somebody until they give you a resigned "fine".

[pbmus]

44. Consent...

In common speech, consent occurs when one person voluntarily agrees to the proposal or desires of another.[1] The concept of consent has been operationalized in several major contexts, including in law, medicine and sexual relationships. Types of consent include implied consent, expressed consent, informed consent and unanimous consent. Consent as understood in legal contexts may differ from the everyday meaning. For example, a person with a mental disorder, one with a low mental age or one under the legal age of sexual consent may willingly engage in a sexual act, but that consent is not valid in a legal context.

Hmmmm. Yes it was consent..

[brush]

36. He said he remembered the kiss differently. Why not wait for the investigation he called for...

to rush to label him a sexual abuser?

I mean she submitted a photo as evidence of him groping her but his hands are not touching her in the obviously staged, gag photo — admittedly in poor taste but not the groping she claims.

What else in this incident she described may not stand up under scrutiny, not to mention the involvement of Roger Stone, Breitbart and InfoWars?

I think I'll wait for the investigation, the one she said is not necessary.

Would that be because she would have to testify under oath?

[lapfog_1]

42. Let's see

we needed a distraction from the Roy Moore / Donald Trump sexual assault on dozens of women... and in Roy Moore's case, dozens of teenagers, some as young as 14 (statutory rape).

So... find a now right wing former model / actress who appeared with a leading Democrat at a USO tour event. Make up a story about a "forced kiss" and tell the press (also present a "joke" photo showing the "perp" doing something stupid). Somehow leak this to Roger Stone and the conservative media first.

False equivalence established.

Wait for Democrats to turn themselves inside out so that the false equivalence becomes "whataboutism" and deflect from the election of a child molester and the election to President of a true serial sexual abuser.

I wish Franken had the flu on that USO tour. I think the photo was him being 12 years old. I don't believe her about the "forced kiss". No other victims of Franken have appeared yet... if they do I think we should listen carefully to them.

Otherwise...

[Beartracks]

55. This is a good summary. n/t

[tblue37]

123. Roy Moore molested the 14-year-old--while both had underwear on. Rape involves

penetration, so it is molestation of a minor under the age of consent, but not rape--statutory or otherwise.

He violently sexually assaulted the 16-year-old by trying to force her to give him a bj and then threatened her to ensure her silence. Still no penetration, though.

[pandr32]

81. Did this even happen?

Sen. Franken says he remembers the skit differently and apologized to her if anything he did made her uncomfortable in any way and she accepted his apology. We have no reason to doubt Franken, yet on Tweeden's side there are things she alleged we can already discount.
Not everyone who yells "fire" is telling the truth--some just want to sow chaos.
I think it is important to stand with Senator Franklin against a political hit job.
We Dems often condemn our own and will continue to do so if there is credible evidence.

[bluestarone]

142. hahahahahahahaha

yea really looked like she pushed him away hahahahaha

[malaise]

11. Hmmmmmmmmmmm

I've seen posts defending the slaughter of Palestinian children.

[oberliner]

25. Any such posts are despicable

And should be roundly condemned (and usually are deleted).

[guillaumeb]

28. That is a much different situation,

involving "the only democracy in the Middle East" and other similar nonsense that ignores 60 years of actual history.

[Chasstev365]

12. Part of the problem is that there is not one thing that represents sexual harrassnent

What Al Franken did was inappropriate and bad workplace behavior. No excuses! But it is not in the same class of Roy Moore; a 30 years who banned from a mall because he was hitting on or worse to teenage girls or Trump who has over 20 allegations of sexual harassment and assault.

The other component is that Ms Tweeden is willingly or unwillingly being used by the right to negate Moore and Trump as their speciality: FALSE EQUIVALENCY!

[oberliner]

19. There is no equivalency being suggested here

Just an argument that we should condemn someone forcibly kissing another person against their objections, even if that person is a Democrat.

[Irish_Dem]

20. Yes it is a lesser offense, but still doesn't make it right. nt

[underthematrix]

14. The original discussion was about child molestation and sexual assault by a District Attorney who's

now running for the US senate. Tweeden inserted her story of being offended by a kiss rehearsal and a photo in which Al Franken, a comedian at the time pretended to put his hands on Tweeden's breast while she was sleeping. Totally inappropriate and not funny.
But unlike Roy Moore, Sen Franken did not sexually harass or sexually assault Tweeden.

The reason Tweeden inserted her story into the Roy Moore's child sexual abuse, sexual assault, sexual harassment news was because the GOP knew most folks would frame it as sexual harassment/assault even though Tweeden never alleged either of those and there was no evidence from her own description that anything like that happened.

[oberliner]

22. Tweeden alleged that Franken forcibly kissed her (with his tongue) against her will

And over her objections.

That is the salient piece of this that I feel we all ought to be able to condemn.

[underthematrix]

57. No that's not what Tweeden said

She said Franken to rehearse the kiss which she didn't want to do but he was so insistent that she said OK whatever. The "whatever" is key here because it means only one person is setting the parameters. Professional actors, which Tweeden claimed to be would've mapped out every single detail, every move, every touch. She never used the word force. She agreed to rehearse the kiss. She said he cupped the back of head, pulled in and put his lips on hers which she said were wet and slimy. Then he stuck his tongue in her mouth. She was offended and angry and let him know he better never do that again or her reaction was not going to be so restrained.

[SoCalMusicLover]

59. I Object To A 2 Second Kiss Being Called Sexual

Do all French kisses just lead to sex?

[LisaM]

63. Correct, so then why....

has she muddled the story by posting a picture of a staged gag that was not part of the incident she described? Purposely putting that visual out in front of her story is misleading.

[njhoneybadger]

23. BULLSHIT!!!!!!!! nt

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

27. Because not all acts of sexual misconduct are the same.

Even criminal statutes recognize that fact; all recognize different degrees of criminal sexual conduct and each carries a different penalty. If it was discovered that Al Franken or any other Democrat had molested a fourteen-year-old, assaulted a sixteen-year-old in his car, and hung around shopping malls trolling for high school girls (and denied it contrary to persuasive evidence), or assaulted at least fifteen women (and denied it contrary to persuasive evidence) and bragged about grabbing their genitals, I'd be first in line to demand his ouster. I do not believe, however, that a single instance of misconduct as described by Leeann Tweeden is at all comparable to a long-standing pattern of child-molesting or pussy-grabbing. Franken has admitted he was at fault and has apologized. Nobody is excusing his conduct or claiming it was OK or justifiable in any way (at least that I've seen), but there should be a recognition that while all sexual misconduct is bad, some acts are worse than others.

[oberliner]

31. Agreed

Anyone who wants to claim that what Al Franken is alleged to have done is as bad, or worse, or at the same level as some of these other awful things that have come out recently will be condemned by me for doing so.

However, that being said, there is no reason why we cannot all agree that his actions were wrong.

[Chemisse]

45. Exactly. If he were a Republican, I would also say this is not comparable to Moore's acts.

I am uncomfortable with a broad brush condemnation that paints all sexual misconduct as equally 'bad,' and equally unforgivable.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

30. Nothing and nobody should be above suspicion

[SoCalMusicLover]

50. Sexual Misconduct?

He kissed her and made a gesture trying to get a laugh. If that was sexual misconduct, he did not get his money's worth.

[oberliner]

56. Forcibly kissing someone with one's tongue against their objections is sexual misconduct

He repeated that actors really need to rehearse everything and that we must practice the kiss. I said ‘OK’ so he would stop badgering me. We did the line leading up to the kiss and then he came at me, put his hand on the back of my head, mashed his lips against mine and aggressively stuck his tongue in my mouth.

I immediately pushed him away with both of my hands against his chest and told him if he ever did that to me again I wouldn’t be so nice about it the next time.

I walked away. All I could think about was getting to a bathroom as fast as possible to rinse the taste of him out of my mouth.

I felt disgusted and violated.

That doesn't sound like sexual misconduct to you?

[SoCalMusicLover]

64. She Really Built That Account Up

She had to rush to bathroom to wash her mouth out? Drama much?

As a guy, I have been on 1st dates, and I hardly think if I tried to give some tongue, I was sexually harrassing my date.

[bagelsforbreakfast]

75. Curious - assuming this did in fact happen, what is the usual penalty in criminal

law? Now contrast that with the usual penalty Moore would face if the statue of limitations had not run out.

[Demsrule86]

76. You want to be duped by the GOP fine...but don't try to force it on the rest of us...standard

GOP make shit up and then watch the Dems ear their...not this time Hannity.

[rzemanfl]

52. Fuck. This. Shit. n/t

[cwydro]

54. Its a hit job by the repugs.

Very obvious, and I believe the truth will out.

[MatthewG.]

65. Proportion is important here

With Moore, you have credible child molestation accusations, which are buttressed by multiple credible and corroborated claims by other accusers, including an accusation of violent rape itsef buttressed by written evidence.

With Trump you have multiple sexual assault accusers (eleven, I think), plus a host of possible criminal activities related to the election being investigated by a federal prosecutor who has already indicted two people close to his inner circle, is near certain to get more indictments, and has already netted one guilty plea to federal crimes - plus a whole separate host of sleazy and potentially unlawful activities from his business career (i’m amazed Trump’s well known mob ties didn’t become more of an issue in ‘16.)

With Franken, there’s a single accuser, which means there’s more room to debate the truth of events. The allegation is a serious one, but it doesn’t shock the conscience in the manner of child molestation or murder. Even his accuser has publically said he shouldn’t have to step down. This is not Moore or Trump. To think otherwise is to accept a grossly inaccurate Republican framing of events.

[brewens]

66. Whatever was really going on, could be considered inappropriate behavior even if the woman

was really awake and joining in the clowning around. Something Al may very well be ashamed of, but also possibly prove their was no wrong done to the woman. Definitely not a picture a Senator should be in, or something he would want his wife and family to see.

The source is definitely suspect. Hannity made it so all by himself, but there is more than that.

[Control-Z]

92. I beg to differ.

We've all seen far worse than this on SNL and other political comedy shows. The groping of every body part. The deep tongue kisses. Men with men. Women with women. Women with men.Orgy style groups. Broadcast for all to see in the name of comedy.

I doubt that the spouses of these comedians bat an eye at what they see. Their marriages wouldn't survive a week.

I'm shocked that some on DU seem incapable of seeing this in anything but black and white. We are smarter than that.

[Demsrule86]

70. I would disagree...I am not falling for a put up job by Hannity and Republicans and then we turn

on our people...won't do it. And Franken did not assault anyone.

[Crunchy Frog]

77. It's *alleged*

By someone who may have a political motive to try to take down a good Democrat, against a person who has no known history or pattern of this kind of behavior.

We should at least wait to find out more before jumping onto the bandwagon to crucify him. Let's at least have that ethics investigation that he wants.

[pnwmom]

78. Wrong. DU is full of people who can distinguish between DEGREES of misbehavior,

and see the shadows on a picture of "groping" that show it was only pretend groping.

Yes, Franken was wrong to participate in a gag about sexual assault. Sexual assault isn't funny.

And if she made her feelings clear that she didn't want to be kissed, then he was wrong to force a kiss on her.

But these offenses in no way compare to what has been alleged of Weinstein, Spacey, Moore, and Trump.

[bagelsforbreakfast]

80. "DU is full of people who can distinguish between DEGREES of misbehavior"

but it's also full of people who can't and don't.

[Pathwalker]

87. And they're the ones that make want to scream.

For those of us who've actually endured violent sexual assault, treating what happened with Tweedan(sp?) as if it was just as bad/the same thing is enough to make me want to scream Had I been given the choice between an unwanted kiss and what actually happened to me, I'd have chosen the kiss in a heartbeat. I've also endured those unwanted kisses, but I never thought of it anywhere close to the same catagory as my sexual assault. Not even remotely close. But, here on DU, they are treated equally by some.

[questionseverything]

112. just wanted to say,i am so sorry for what you went thru

[tblue37]

127. I suspect at least some of the over the top, self-righteous outrage

against Franken is really just virtue signalling.

[Loki Liesmith]

86. I dont accept the believe all victims bullshit

And I do support investigations and judicious punishments.

I don’t think Roy Moore should withdraw from his race.

I don’t think Franken should step down.

If they’ve broken some laws, charge them and convict them.

If they are in office start an ethics investigation.

[ornotna]

89. The key word here

is "alleged"

Your outrage is duly noted.

[Lunabell]

93. This

It's tribalism. Sad. Pathetic.

[loyalsister]

95. It's disappointing

When someone takes the risk to tell their story, they should be heard. Demonizing and discrediting someone who takes that huge scary step is not simply a defense of the accused. It is a defense of the patriarchal power structure that has silenced so many victims for so very long.

[Mr. Ected]

101. Are you implying that every victim of alleged sexual misconduct

Is to be believed, without reservation, until proof is offered that the allegations are, in fact, unfounded?

Benefit of the doubt to all self-declared victims?

Sorry, I'm not ready to concede that point. Those without a conscience...and they number in the tens of millions in the USA alone...would have no qualms beating us at our own game, which is the protection of victims and the pursuit of equality, by falsifying statements about crimes or acts that never happened and for which there are no witnesses, just he said, she said.

How can we prevent ourselves from judging both victim and alleged perpetrator under such circumstances? Tell you what. I believe Weinstein's accusers. I believe Kevin Spacey's accusers, and Bill Cosby's. I believe that some Democrats commit crimes and egregious acts and I want nothing more than the scales of justice to mete out their punishment.

Your point is that defenders of Franken do so simply because he is a Democrat. That's not accurate and in fact is somewhat inflammatory. The outcry on DU is that Franken's sophomoric act pales in comparison to the other perps the media is engaged with at the present moment: Roy Moore, Donald Trump. It's the same old damned false equivalency that we fall prey to every.single.time. And because of our very nature as Democrats, we fall for it time and time again.

[oberliner]

103. Franken has not denied anything he was accused of

He just said he doesn't remember it the same way.

He did not say something like: "I can unequivocally state that I have never forcibly kissed this woman or any other person against their will."

[moriah]

111. It's called a polite denial. He "doesn't remember it the same way", but...

... was being very careful to make sure HIS response was not going to fall into any of the other excuses people caught make.

He "doesn't remember it the same way", but all victims should be heard.

He "doesn't remember it the same way", but that doesn't mean people shouldn't take every allegation seriously, even against themselves, and said he needed to re-evaluate whether other things he admitted doing were funny or appropriate.

He "doesn't remember it the same way", but will happily submit to having his behavior making him look like an immature juvenile asshat investigated.

And it was all said so that, even if there's no investigation into the motivations behind coming forward with this photo now, the accusation presents no impediment to having the asshat accused of forcing immature juveniles to submit to *him* investigated.

[moriah]

108. Here's a c/p of my take, from another post.

We just have to be willing to have an open mind and *listen* to any alleged victim.

Whether, after trying to take your own emotions about the accused or the alleged victim out of your reasoning process, and after listening to what they have to say, you believe them....

... that's something completely different.

All people making allegations should be heard out with an open mind. But an "open mind" doesn't necessarily mean the intellect must be totally tossed out, either. More effectively, emotion is what should be be discarded for that moment.

[riverwalker]

106. Its not about sexual assault

It’s about political dirty tricks Roger Stone style. Leeann is a known birther and admitted Tea Party member, frequently on Hannity as a “commentator”. It’s insulting to all the real victims of assault, and that angers me. Stone knows we nice liberals won’t attack “the victim”. He sat on this photo and story and waited. Don’t let him win.

[stevenleser]

107. I think your OP is a straw-man. I haven't seen any posts excusing sexual misconduct.

I have seen many posts suggesting they don't believe it occurred. That is different from "Excusing sexual misconduct"

There are also complications in that, there are suggestions that all of the items that are alleged were consensual. The kiss in particular was alleged to be part of a rehearsal between actors. The alleged 'victim' herself indicates she said "OK". To assert this or wonder if this is the case is not excusing sexual misconduct because if those things are true there was no sexual misconduct.

Regarding the photograph, there is a real question as to whether or not she was actually touched and that makes a huge difference. It also makes a difference that Franken was a comedian at the time and was taking the picture as a joke and that there is an allegation that she was aware of the idea of taking the picture and was pretending to be asleep.

So there are many valid issues and questions here that go to the heart of whether any sexual misconduct occurred at all.

[Cattledog]

109. Ah, maybe a diverse place with many differing opinions.

[crosinski]

114. Yes Cattledog. I've come to the same conclusion!

However, a lot of people are having trouble with this concept.

[Vinca]

113. Franken's first response after hearing about the charge was "that's not how I remember it."

Given video that has surfaced and analysis of the photo provided, I would be interested in hearing from witnesses who were around these 2 people 24/7. And hearing that Roger Stone was promising "Franken's time in the barrel" before the press conference and photo release makes me even more suspicious. Woman have gone centuries enduring indignities and not being believed. Now that people are listening, we can't automatically conclude every man accused is guilty. There are 50 people backing up the stories about Roy Moore. I haven't heard anyone backing up either the accused or victim in this case. I'm still betting the lady has an autographed copy of the picture in her photo album.

[blueinredohio]

116. People can't French kiss unless both mouths are open

[rzemanfl]

126. Shhhh. You are talking about a member of the women's team. n/t

[bagelsforbreakfast]

118. Perhaps Super Al Franken's got a tounge of steel? n/m

[TheFrenchRazor]

120. this. nt

[maxrandb]

122. I don't know

I guess we aren't going to blindly throw a great Senator under the bus because some right-wing hack launched a hatchet job against him.

I'm actually proud that we are still a fact based site and don't convict people of sexual assault without an investigation or trial.

IMHO, those that have jumped on the Leeann bandwagon without even considering that she may have an agenda, have done nothing but push back advances we have made to combat sexual assault.

[samnsara]

128. i dont approve of public shaming of anyone EXCEPT trump and his..

..inbred spawn and clan. When the allegations came out in Hollywood I didn't know the guy I couldn't make a judgment so I tried to stay neutral (but disgusted) but when the public began piling on that guy I started to feel pity for him. The victims..yes..they can pile on as much as they want...but the rest was what made me uneasy. Even with Moore... as GROSS and DISGUSTING and GUILTY as he is, I feel a little bit of guilt for the public shaming....and guilty about the fact that now I realize I am socially and morally superior to him.

I wish there was a way we could just shun them...escort them to the gates of the Village and lock the door to them forever as they exit.

ANYWAY when I hear or read of these allegations I want to look at all the variables before I register a level of disdain and disgust ( because I will always believe the victim!). The more creepy, evil, monstrous, and disgusting the offender is, the more disgusted I am. For instance..would I leave my young teen grand daughters alone with this guy? Trump, Moore, Hollywood Guy, Cosby..HELL NO!!! Franken....yep!

[bigtree]

129. lol

...

[still_one]

130. bullshit. What Al Franken did was inappropriate behavior, and he apologized for it, it was

immature, but sexual misconduct, come off your high horse.

As far as the ALLEDGED forced kiss, why are some so ready to except one person's story over another?

When a young republican woman reported that she was robbed at beaten by an Obama supporter, were they ready to accept that?

What about when the accusation that John Kerry was having an affair with an intern in his campaign, were they ready to accept that?

How many people in their life have used inappropriate language in front of people, is that sexual misconduct?
How many people have told a distasteful joke, a remark, etc. is that sexual misconduct?

How many people enjoyed movies such as animal house, hangover, american pie, are they latent sexual predators?

DUers are NOT excusing inappropriate behavior, but they sure as hell are skeptical of the forced kiss which conveniently had no witnessess, and how coincidently Roger Stone tweeted about it 24 hours before it was announced, along with the media jumping all over with false equivalencies of comparing it to the stalking of underage girls, Bill O'Reilly, or Bill Clinton's behavior, which have absolutely nothing to do with what Al Franken is ALLEDGED to have done, or even if the story is valid. Al Franken has come out and said that he recalls a different version.

Has anyone else come out and said Al Franken exhibited similar behavior toward them? I find it curious that the sexual predators such as Weinstein, Moore, O'Reilly etc. have demonstrated a pattern of behavior of that repeats itself.. A typical pattern of these incidents is a repeated occurrance of them, and that sure doesn't appear to be the case with Al Franken, which raises a red flag.

[NanceGreggs]

133. No one is excusing anything.

Allegations have been made against Senator Franken, and people have a right to question whether those allegations have any substance or merit.

Given the source of those allegations, her numerous ties to RW personalities and the GOP, and the timing of her accusations, their veracity is highly questionable – if not downright suspect.

As has been made evident over the past few days, there are those among us who see Franken’s actions as ranging between a tasteless but harmless joke and totally inappropriate behaviour. But I’ve not seen a single post here saying that Franken is guilty of what has been alleged, but let’s just “excuse it” because he’s a Democrat.

You have chosen to take Ms. Tweedon’s version of events as gospel truth, as is your prerogative. But most Democrats have come to recognize the tactics of Republicans for what they are: a desperate attempt to project their own criminal doings onto a Democrat in hopes they can sell the “both sides do it” argument in order to distract attention away from their own.

There is nothing coincidental about “sexual misconduct” accusations being levied against a popular Democratic senator at exactly the same time the GOP is desperately trying to un-do the damage that a known pedophile running for office is causing within their own ranks.

No one is “excusing” Senator Franken’s actions “just because said conduct is alleged to have been committed by a Democrat”. No one. Questioning the truthfulness of those allegations is a far different thing than “excusing” them out-of-hand. And given the mud-slinging proclivities of the GOP, along with the endless stream of lies they have a penchant for disseminating, questioning everything they say and do has become a mandatory exercise for all of us.

[Atticus]

134. Well said. nt

[alarimer]

141. It's not excusing it; it's pointing out that this act is not equivalent to others.

In addition, a sincere apology was offered and accepted, which should be the end of it.

We simply have to acknowledge that there is considerable variation in what constitutes sexual misconduct and what does not. You are lumping a whole lot of different things into one single category. We as a society cannot operate that way. No should get fired for telling s dirty joke, or for a single inappropriate behavior. It is PATTERNS of behavior that matter.

And the timing is certainly questionable in Franken's case, as well as some of the people involved.

Skepticism is useful in many of these claims anyway. Statistically speaking, some percentage will not be true at all.

[Gothmog]

144. Trump will not be competent to stand trial