I Love Lucy and All in the Family also depicted women

[malaise]

as idiots - how far back do we go?

[dsc]

1. Edith was no idiot

[malaise]

5. Archie treated her like one

I agree she was no idiot

[brooklynite]

33. ...and he was played as an ignorant jerk.

[msongs]

2. I read that once, a long time ago a married virgin had sex with god behind her husband's back nt

[malaise]

6. ROFL

I read that too

[Drahthaardogs]

3. All in the Family depicted Archie as an ignorant bigot

Surrounded by people far more intelligent and better than him, but he still saw himself as superior.

The women were way smarter than Archie, he just didn't get it. Archie was the butt of the whole joke.

[bobbieinok]

31. That's what WE thought; v RW acquaintance saw Archie as the only truth-teller

Have read that man behind show became aware many saw Archie as validating their views.

I blame show for giving mainstrem voice to bigotry. In show he was seen by others as wrong. Many I knew felt finally someone was telling the truth in public.

[Drahthaardogs]

32. If they are too fucking dumb to get the joke, it's not the

Show's fault.

I can tell it to you, but I can't make you understand - my mantra at work.

[OhioBlue]

35. my boss once made a comment that he used to laugh at "All in the Family" and that he wasn't

necessarily proud of it and how something as politically incorrect as that would never air today. I told him the show's creator (Norman Lear) was actually a very open-minded liberal who was shining a light on Archie's backward thinking and that the actor (Carol O'Connor) was also liberal. He just shut me down and said "I disagree". I was flabbergasted.

[misanthrope]

41. He was right about one thing

A show like that would never be allowed on network television today, despite the fact its most objectionable material was used to make fun of the person saying it.

[Dorian Gray]

47. Yes

and Archie had many "come to God" moments on the show. Moments where his bigotry was exposed... where he grew a little bit... where he learned to be more evolved and welcoming and loving to his wife, his son in law, the Jeffersons.....

The show was amazingly forward thinking.

People who viewed it as elevating Archie as the moral hero speaking truth don't understand the humor.

[OhioBlue]

58. It's amazing - I think many of us are really just wired differently from birth.

As a child, I always saw Archie as more the butt of the joke and pointing out "wrong" attitudes in society. I agree with you. I can't recall specific episodes, but I do have a memory of a slower music playing, the camera coming in close on Archie and a look of awareness, awakening and a bit of shame coming across his face as he pondered something. The show really did have great writing and acting. Archie mirrored things back to the audience, frustration at not being wholly agreed with, frustration and quick tempered dismissals when confronted with facts that opposed his preconceived notions, name calling as a way out of a losing argument, etc.

[malaise]

50. Well said

It had the opposite effect

[eShirl]

4. Burns & Allen

George: Say goodnight, Gracie.
Gracie: Goodnight, Gracie.

[TheDebbieDee]

10. My all time favorite...

Gracie: My friend, What's-her-name is in the hospital. George said I should visit her and take her flowers so when she wasn't looking, I did!

[malaise]

11. ROFL

Perfect

[mucifer]

19. But, part of the on going jokes on the show because they constantly broke

the 4th wall was George looking in the camera and saying he would be poor without Gracie that she made the show what it is and had the talent.

[ProudLib72]

7. One of these days, Malaise

POW, straight to the moon!

That's how conservatives keep the women in line. They learned it's ok to be violent from TV shows like The Honeymooners. So what do we have? Women are idiots who need physical violence to keep them in their place. IMHO, it's not a giant leap from Jackie Gleason's line to "Grab 'em by the pussy".

[malaise]

9. Women and non-whites have been victims of institutional propaganda for centuries

It's has long been the Contract against women and the Racial Contract - yes we're making gains but is has been deliberate and systemic.

[enough]

12. That was why it was such a deep psychological blow when Trump won the electoral vote.

We thought there had been so much progress.

But the blow was not fatal.

[NanceGreggs]

18. No one "learned it's okay to be violent ...

... from TV shows like The Honeymooners".

The line "One of these days, Alice, pow - straight to the moon!" being "not a giant leap" to "grab 'em by the pussy" is beyond ludicrous.

Men who think a woman should be controlled by physical violence existed long before The Honeymooners, and sadly still exist today. No one learned that behaviour from a TV comedy - especially one where despite his famous line, Ralph clearly adored Alice, and NEVER, EVER actually engaged in any violence towards her or anyone else.

This is just beyond silly.

[Merlot]

21. I don't think they "learned" it on tv, but seeing it on TV

validated that behavior for some who might be inclined in that direction anyway. As for Ralph adoring Alice, living under the threat of constant violence, how is that adoring? I know, it's a comedy, but that line always makes me cringe.

[NanceGreggs]

34. Bullshit.

If what you got out of The Honeymooners was that Alice was "living under the threat of constant violence", you're obviously not familiar with the show.

[Hekate]

27. What you said, Nance

[misanthrope]

42. Note too Alice's posture and expression when Ralph did that

She never flinched, never expressed anything other than disdain because she knew Ralph was a blowhard. Like you, I didn't like the language but understood the context.

And no one back then thought it was acceptable to hit women. I know of family stories about groups of brothers who showed up to "correct" the violent boyfriends and husbands of their sisters. Most were "encouraged" to make themselves scarce.

[NanceGreggs]

44. Exactly.

I don't mind the language - it was typical banter at the time.

[stopbush]

54. Alice always won and Ralph always lost. He was a blabbermouth

who ended up with his tail between his legs most of the time.

One of Gleason’s great pieces of shtick was walking behind the seated Alice, gesturing and posturing at her but not being able to come up with a single word to actually say to her.

In a very real sense, The Honeymooners empowered women by portraying them as strong, no-nonsense leaders stuck in a male-dominated world whose stupidities were exposed on a weekly basis.

[BigmanPigman]

8. I bet you would find it in the Rosetta Stone

or in ancient cave paintings.

[Irish_Dem]

13. We are still being treated like idiots. nt

[unc70]

14. TV comedy is pretty hard on the bumbling husbands, too

It looks bad for everyone.

[maxsolomon]

15. if you're still alive and you harassed, you're vulnerable

unless you're a Republican.

[maveric]

16. The Bible?

[malaise]

17. And many other religious texts

It's institutionalized

[Merlot]

20. Lucy wasn't an idiot - she was a clown

The show was groundbreaking becasue a beautful woman (Lucille Ball) was funny, messy, and played the part of the clown. Lucille Ball insisted on Desi as the husband when the network wanted someone non-Cuban.

Think about all the other women on TV at the time, they were all proper housewives and mothers.

[malaise]

23. I loved the show

and I understand what she did and the ground she broke. She was still given the 'idiot' role - you call it clown but we all laugh at the ReTHUG clown show.

[Merlot]

38. I call her a clown because she studied clowns

for that role. She really was playing a clown.

[Demonaut]

22. B.C. comic strip?

[sl8]

24. Off-hand, I can't think of any of the All in the Family women that were portrayed as idiots,

Last edited Tue Nov 21, 2017, 11:19 AM - Edit history (1)

amongst the regulars, at least.

You had Edith, Gloria, Maude, Irene Lorenzo and Louise Jefferson.

Out of all of them, only Edith might have given the impression of being not too bright, but that impression would be dispelled as soon as you got to know her.

In general, I think that the women were portayed as smart and strong.

[kacekwl]

25. Absolutely, the men were the idiots.

Archie,George Jefferson,Meathead at times too. The women were the strong ones on the show.

[misanthrope]

43. Yep**

**

[RKP5637]

26. I think women often make better leaders than men. Men, always have too much testosterone

in the way. That and ego clouds their minds. They also often use cavemen type mentalities IMO. Not always, but often enough, at minimal most republicans.

[malaise]

45. I've known good leaders from both genders

On the other hand the assumption of superiority from some men is overbearing.
Sadly some of us females nurture it and enable it as mothers

[RKP5637]

53. Good points, as always. n/t

[3catwoman3]

28. I have never liked any sort of show where...

...a woman has to act like an idiot in order to have a successful career. I was not a fan of any of the Lucy shows.

[nini]

29. Eve was the first sinner

[dawg]

30. Nope.

Was snek.

[customerserviceguy]

36. The first thirty years or so

of TV milked the whole men vs. women issue for all they could get out of it, that's for sure.

But, they started to turn things around a bit with having the women come out on top more often than not. I see your point about Lucy, but Archie Bunker was shown to be a fool for his beliefs. While the show could not be made today, it shined a light on behavior that had been unquestionably seen as "normal", in order to get the audience to think a bit.

I do think TV has changed its tune, women over the last thirty years have been shown in respectful situations, generally.

[Tikki]

37. So not a fan of Lucy.

Even as little girl I'd wonder why she acted that way.

Tikki

[TheFrenchRazor]

39. how far back before...what? before it becomes not wrong? i'd have to say really, really far. nt

[JI7]

40. i didn't find the women in those shows as Idiots. the Husbands seemed to be treated more

as idiots at times.

while i don't think they portrayed the women as idiots in the case of Lucy the husband/wife relationship was very sexist with the husband being the one in control and lucy needing his permission for things.

[malaise]

46. I agree with you re the h/w relationship

but remember there was a time when we were mere property, could not vote and could not have a bank account.
Thankfully men cannot do what they want with us today.

[Yupster]

59. Ethel sure had Fred's number

And Alice and Trixie both were in charge of Ralph and Norton.

There was also the famous Andy Griffith episode where Andy took a young lady out shooting and turns out she was a champion shooter.

[RobinA]

48. I Felt

that on both these shows the women actually had the power. I guess if you look on the superficial level it doesn't seem that way, but on a deeper level the women called the shots and decided what was going to happen in the family.

[gollygee]

49. Yes, this is a societal issue that has gone on for a very long time. Certainly longer than TV. nt

[CatMor]

51. I Love Lucy was a comedy show.....

and Lucille Ball broke ground for women to be comediennes. In real life she was a successful business woman. On the show she usually outsmarted Ricky. I never saw the show as degrading women and I'm a feminist from way back .

[el_bryanto]

52. You have to decide how tolerant you are going to be with media created earlier

while also being sensitive to people you spend time with. I love classic cartoons, but it's hard not to notice that depictions of Native Americans, Blacks, and Women are not what we would wish them to be these days. While I enjoy what is good about them, if i were to watch cartoons with a friend I might have a word with them about how comfortable they are about those sorts of depictions, and if they don't feel good about it watch something else.

Bryant

[ProfessorGAC]

55. There Are Episodes Of Bugs Bunny. . .

. . .that i'd never watch in front of someone unless i was 100% sure of their sensitivities.

Most of them are innocuous but a few are pretty edgy by today's standard. And there is no bigger Bugs fan than me. Or there are plenty equal, just no bigger fan.

[Orsino]

56. Edith was more an innocent than an idiot.

Her questions drew out Archie, at times demonstrating wisdom and empathy far beyond his.

She was a step beyond Lucy.

[misanthrope]

57. Edith was the ethical and moral center of the central characters

Archie was, well, Archie. Mike often came across just as obstinate, condescending and chauvinist as his father-in-law, but in his own way. Gloria could be rash and childish.

Edith, though, she was the one you looked up to. She was kind, empathetic, sympathetic and looked for the good in others.