Thats what she said joke at work, sexual Harrasment??

[brettdale]

Okay, so seven years ago I was at work, and got my first cell phone, yep at the age of forty I got
my first cell phone, anyway this guy showed me a game on my phone, where you have a little computer
snake making its way through a maze, it can eat pebbles along the way.

When it eats pebbles, you get more points, but the snakes tail becomes longer, and makes it
more difficult to get through the maze.

So it was break time, I was in the break room with the guy and a female colleague who was
about 19. I was playing the game, and said "Wow I got a 1000 points" the guy looked over
at my phone and said Innocently ....

"Wow, look at the size of your snake"

I replied...

"That's what she said"

We are all started laughing. No complaints, no problem.

With whats going on lately with those in the entertainment industry, politicians, Journos with
complaints being made about CRUDE COMMENTS at work, would both my male and female
workmate in the room be justify seven years later making a complaint?

Im against any form of harrasement, but some of the complaints against famous people have
been for 20/30 years and have been about crude comments in the work play.

So would a thats what she said joke, be considered a serious form of abuse.

[MineralMan]

1. What did your female colleague think?

You didn't say.

[brettdale]

2. she cracked up laughing

Thought it was funny she had been at work for a few months and was
quite the joker herself.

[MineralMan]

94. I didn't ask what she did.

I asked what she thought. I suspect you have no idea what she thought. People laugh at sexual jokes sometimes to try to "fit in." That's especially true in the workplace.

Jokes with sexual content are out of place in mixed company. Personally, I simply never tell such jokes in any company. I have many other humorous things I can say. Sexual jokes, racial jokes, ethnic jokes, jokes about handicaps and demeaning jokes of all kinds are better left unsaid in every environment.

Why take the chance of giving offense?

[sinkingfeeling]

3. I don't know anymore. I stopped working 2 years ago, but was hired

into a division of a major corporation that was 99.8% male back in 1973. I attended meetings where I was the only female with 250 men.

Back then, married men 'hit on young professional women, made lots of comments that today would get them fired, and played 'touchy, feely' and no one complained. Maybe it was a part of the 'sexual revolution' or easy access to the pill, but by today's standards about 90% of the men I worked with would have been in deep trouble.

And yet, I never felt disrespected. I even managed all male groups where they were all older than myself. I'm really confused about what's just playing around and what's offensive.

[RKP5637]

60. I was in many situations at the corporate level where there was playing around/joking, but none

ever crossed the line and all sexes joked around. ... I bet I was naive and just didn't get what was going on in some circles. It was also a very professional environment and stressed non-discrimination. There were classes and training, so those instances of crossing the line were likely minimized in the environment I was in. However, thinking back now to many instances, I'm sure it was just under the surface.

[Squinch]

4. Is it really that hard to not make any sexual comments or innuendos for 8 hours out of

the day? Is there really nothing else to talk about?

If you have to ask, don't say it.

PS - the 19 year old hearing that from the 40 year old? My guess is that she didn't think it was hilarious. She was being a good sport.

[brettdale]

5. It was a spur of the moment comment

Its not like i spent my day making comments like that.

So what should be my just punishment for saying a thats what she said joke at
work, seven years ago, a joke that only two people heard and both found funny.

Financial? Jail time?? rehab??

[Squinch]

6. They always are. And now you're mad that I answered your question truthfully. SMH.

[brettdale]

20. Not mad at all

Point being, a lot of people are going to be caught up and maybe punished for
something that is not deserved.

[Squinch]

30. Why are you asking the question you are asking in the OP? Do you want an answer or

have you already decided that anyone taking offense to the joke would be a prudy prude being prudish and terribly unfair to "a lot of people"?

Because this post makes it seem like your mind is already set.

Which means that if you made the joke in front of a young woman who was made uncomfortable by it, she would really have only two choices: be a "good sport" about it, i.e. allow you to make her uncomfortable, OR stand up to a person twice her age who sounds like he wouldn't consider her objections valid anyway.

[brettdale]

38. Nope my mind is not set

As i Said there were two people plus myself in the room, I made the thats what she said joke,
both my male and female collegue cracked up laughing, as I said she was quite the joker.

With whats happening in hollywood, some of the complaints have been made about
CRUDE COMMENTS said 30 years ago on a movie set.

Lets say for argument sake, my male or female co worker, hire a lawyer, and takes me
to court, and say "they only laughed because it was a nervous laugh, and they felt
harrassed"

What should happen? Should I have to pay a fine??? Thousands of dollars in damage?
Just a public apology?? Community work? Prison???

What should the punishment be for a thats what she said joke????

BTW, in all my years in the work force, I have never had one complaint, not one written
or verbal warning, no one has ever complained, and also making a risque jokes at
work is something I hardly ever do.

It just sort of popped out of my mouth.

[Squinch]

50. No one is being brought to court for a comment made 30 years ago, and your colleague

could not take you to court for making the joke.

Your belief that they could and your breathless list of "punishments" for your joke says that you think men are being persecuted by women bringing harassment complaints.

I suspect nothing I say will disabuse you of that nonsense.

The United States Supreme Court has stated that the harassment laws are not a civility code. Therefore, isolated inappropriate comments, no matter how offensive or rude, usually aren't enough to bring a claim for a hostile environment. To state a legal claim for a hostile environment, the conduct has to be either severe or pervasive. For instance, if a woman is sexually assaulted one time at work, that might be severe enough to state a claim of hostile environment. In cases where there is no physical contact, usually a woman has to show that the sexually inappropriate comments were constant, even on a daily basis.

https://www.attorneyjulien.com/Articles/What-is-Workplace-Harassment-and-What-Can-You-Do-About-It.shtml

[brettdale]

57. Dont live in the USA

So USA Law wouldnt count.

And no I dont beleive men are being persecuted, the likes of Moore/Spacey/Olielly/Trump need to go
to jail for a long time.

I do agree though there will be people caught up with some complaints that should be considered minor.

[Squinch]

59. How will people be "caught up" for minor complaints, given that the law says what the law says?

The law specifically prohibits that from happening.

[brettdale]

64. Their careers will be ruined

No more film work, TV work, people making minor complaints against someone
for something MINOR they said 30 years ago, could have an effect on their whole life.

Im NOT talking about the scum that threaten women or force themselves on them, im not
talking about the people who continue to make disgusting comments after being told to stop,
Im not talking about the directors who invited underage boys/girls to their hotel room.

There will be a few people though that may of said something to another actor/actress 30 years
ago, that might be blown up via various media outlets to sell papers, that could hurt a career.

[yardwork]

92. I don't see anybody's careers being ruined for saying something minor 30 years ago.

Do you have an example?

[Squinch]

117. Sorry, but this is bullshit. No one's career is being ruined because of something minor

they said 30 years ago.

As usual, when women's voices begin to be heard, men panic and truly believe they are being persecuted.

[Doodley]

79. If somebody feels uncomfortable with that joke, then TBH, that person needs to lighten up.

[7962]

89. It really is getting to the point of ridiculousness isn't it.

We are turning into the nation of the perpetually offended.

[LanternWaste]

93. Your persecution and oppression are noted...

The perpetually offended who attempt to rationalize harassing behavior as righteous and just, and trivialize those who are the object of it.




"What's the world coming to when I can't make fun of other people aloud in public with zero consequences...?

Your persecution and oppression are noted.

[infidel621]

113. Agree

We have people who actually get offended for people who they feel should be offended or more offended, or take some minor (in my opinion) thing and make a huge issue out of it.

[7962]

128. See the response above yours for a perfect example.

Of course, he trolls me constantly, so its more entertainment than anything else. I guess some folks find their enjoyment in odd ways, but I'm not judging. Some of my best friends have some odd hobbies!!

[Squinch]

118. In your opinion. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but your opinion or mine is not

intrinsically more valuable than the opinion of someone who has a hard time with it.

Personally I would not be bothered by the joke. But if someone told me they were, I would absolutely respect that and not go there, and not go anywhere like there, again.

Which is why I also don't see why it's so hard to just not make sexual comments at work.

[delisen]

37. I agree.

I am not interested in moving into some new puritan phase of America.

A lot of what we are going through seems to be related to gender inequality.

I am thinking that if we had real gender equality some issues would disappear - what we consider humorous will also change.

Gender humor changed considerably after WW11-so much that there is much comic and funny paper humor of that era that is hard for people today to understand-we can't get the joke.

[smirkymonkey]

105. I think I probably would have thought it was funny, but it kind of depends on your

relationship w/ the people you work with. If you are all colleagues on the same level and get along pretty well I would have thought it pretty harmless. However, if it was coming from a high-level executive and he was in a group of underlings, I think it would have been inappropriate.

[safeinOhio]

8. You arent saying that it is not

OK for a 40 year saying it. It would be alright if he was a 21 year old hot guy?

[Squinch]

10. I'm saying don't make sexual comments at work. And here comes the whatabout avalanch.

[safeinOhio]

11. Right now you cant discuss

any topic, politic, religion, tv shows or about any topic on the front page of the news paper, without a sexual reference.

[Squinch]

12. WTF?? People with social skills and vocabularies are fully able to discuss all those topics without

making sexual comments.

Your mileage may vary.

[safeinOhio]

15. WTF?

OK, I get it.

[unc70]

22. You are not joking, are you?

One WTF is enough in the minds of some to qualify as a hostile workplace.

[Squinch]

31. Did DU become my workplace when I wasn't looking?

[Jim Beard]

48. There's no way in hell I would be in your work place.

[Squinch]

51. Imagine my disappointment.

[OilemFirchen]

26. Petard Hoisting as Olympic sport:

A solid ten, Squinch.

[Squinch]

33. Is DU your workplace? If so, then I apologize.

[OilemFirchen]

45. Yes.

I empty the bit bucket.

[Doodley]

78. There is no reason to ban all humorous banter, including a bit of playful innuendo.

[MineralMan]

104. Really? No. "Playful Innuendo?" I think not.

In the workplace, that's right out in terms of how to behave. WTF would lead you to thing that it is OK?

People at work have workplace relationships. The idea is to get things done in a productive way. Workplaces are not singles bars. They're not a matchmaking service. They're not Tinder.

If you're engaging in "humorous banter" that has a sexual content or "playful innuendo," you're almost certainly making your co-workers uncomfortable. Why would anyone do that?

[Doodley]

107. Some people in the workplace just need to lighten up and get over themselves. A team needs

to gel together and have a sense of humor. Let's not go down this extreme politically correct path where somebody who says "as the actress said to the bishop" gets written up. Banter is a two-way or multiple-way street. In other words it is consensual between those engaging in a bit of humor and a bit of wordplay. A team that has no banter and no sense of humor isn't going to be a very effective one.

[MineralMan]

109. I see. So sexual banter helps the "team?"

Is that what you're saying? I don't think so. I've never seen that work in real life, frankly. In fact, it usually sets the "team" up for failure.

I do, however, see where you are coming from. More's the pity.

[Doodley]

110. It's called humor. I am not going to fire three people in my office from having a consensual

good-humored conversation, as long as they don't cross the line into explicit, vulgar or bigoted language. Are you?

[MineralMan]

111. I don't have employees. I am my own boss.

I have worked for myself since 1974. In the course of that work, I've dealt with many, many clients, about half of them women. I do not remember a single instance of sexual banter being part of my work with any of my clients.

Before that, though, I did work with teams. I often heard things like, "I'd like to get next to that one..." with reference to some woman. When I heard that kind of crap, I called it out and objected to it. I have almost zero tolerance for such nonsense.

You sound like you're the boss where you are. So, I suppose you get to set the rules there....

[Doodley]

114. I agree. I wouldn't tolerate that either. I won't tolerate that kind of disrespect, but

banter shared between consenting adults is very much their business. I am not going to be the office control freak.

[yardwork]

91. I agree with you.

I see a lot of defense of workplace behavior in this thread that would get people fired in my workplace.

[Irish_Dem]

102. Exactly. Work should be safe and professional.

Lots of other topics besides sex to talk about during breaks and lunch.

[ecstatic]

7. It is my understanding that it's not sexual harassment until you're asked to stop

That's what I was taught in a sexual-harassment workshop. If you had made that joke, and then later on your female coworker came up to you and said, "That made me really uncomfortable, please don't make jokes like that in the future," but you continued to do so, that's when it becomes harassment.

[safeinOhio]

9. Thank you.

That should be the standard.

[mythology]

24. I wouldn't say that

At my company, we have a standard to be proactive about not sexually harassing.

[ecstatic]

47. OK, but everyone has their own personal definition of what makes him/her

uncomfortable. The best policy is to be clear and firm from the first incident. No smiling. No sarcasm. Just be clear and concise.

[RandomAccess]

49. Boy, that advice could get you in a LOT of trouble

Women rarely feel they have the power to ask someone to stop. And it CAN BE sexual harassment if she doesn't. I'm absolutely aghast at this ignorant, insensitive, harasser-supporting-and-enabling "advice."

[ecstatic]

56. On edit: If you don't stand up for yourself, who will?

I'm getting sick of this bullshit. It's 2017 now. I understand people were scared in the past. I understand people can lose their job and their careers by standing up to bullies. But it's a choice we have to make: Stand up, or take it. Those are the choices.

[RandomAccess]

61. Ah, the voice of privilege

I'm a single POC mom earning barely enough to stay off the street, in a job that at least has health insurance so I can keep my very sick child alive -- and you want me to risk all, including my child's life -- by bucking the boss?

Easy for you to say, mister.

Stand up or take it -- for sure.

[prayin4rain]

65. I get what you're saying. You have a right to

not be harassed, but I'm not sure you have the right to never ever hear any short joke that you consider offensive.

[RandomAccess]

66. You're barking up the wrong post

I haven't claimed that -- in fact, why don't you have a look here (and be sure to read the post I'm responding to) https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9869548

[prayin4rain]

67. Oh, yeah, I agree with your post 52. nt

[ecstatic]

71. Umm, that's Ms. And what I said is true: If you say nothing, the person will

continue to do the offensive action. They're not going to magically change. So again, the choice is whether to take it or stand up. Yeah, it can be an ugly choice, but what is the third option? That someone else stick his or her neck into the situation (when they may not even know your true feelings on the situation?)?

[yardwork]

87. That's absurdly wrong.

Very poor advice.

[Initech]

13. In The Office, Michael Scott was under investigation for repeated lewd comments.

And his over use of the "That's what she said" joke was a frequent contributor to these investigations. Maybe that show was ahead of its time?

[woolldog]

14. You are better off not making jokes with female colleagues at work.

If you're going to make jokes at work, stick to making jokes with your male colleagues. Same with going out drinking after work etc

[Squinch]

16. Better yet, lock yourselves in closets because, apparently, it is absolutely impossible

to get through 8 hours without making sexually loaded comments to colleagues.

[woolldog]

17. Huh?

I don't understand the suggestion. What are you talking about?

I say make jokes with your male colleagues if you are a man and do not make jokes with women. That is, if you value your job or career. If you work as a bar back somewhere and you can find another job easily knock yourself out.

[Squinch]

18. You and Pence have the same social rules. Mother would approve.

Alternatively, you could just not make sexual comments in the workplace and then you wouldn't have to avoid women.

[woolldog]

25. why?

I have plenty of colleagues that I can joke with. Why shouldn't we joke with each other? I never said anything about avoiding women, but I would avoid making jokes around female colleagues for exactly the reasons pointed out in the OP. Too easy for someone to be offended.

[mythology]

27. Or you could not make sexual jokes at work.

I can joke with my female coworkers without issues.

[woolldog]

29. that is an option...

...depending on your sense of humor.

[Blue_true]

32. His "joke" was inappropriate for the setting.

"Jokes" like that end up getting people's ass burned.

[woolldog]

34. Exactly.

We're in complete agreement.

[whathehell]

35. or maybe just making clean ones...

You:be heard of those, right?

[woolldog]

42. sometimes, jokes like those in the OP

are just begging to be made. My rule is do not make such jokes in mixed company. But if around male colleagues, let loose.

[trc]

62. for example:

Many years ago I was working in a Lowe's and had a young woman come up to me holding out a 3 inch long wood screw and state "I need a long screw." At first I thought it was a put up by one of my fellow workers, but before I blurted out the obvious answer, I looked at her face and realized she was sincere and did not understand how her question came across. I calmly directed her to the aisle where she could find other such long screws. This has always stuck out in my mind as the moment my thinking brain overcame my baser, juvenile brain (even though I was in my early thirties at the time).

[woolldog]

125. ...

Exactly. Good for you.

[phleshdef]

19. I only make dirty jokes around people I know are ok with it.

[Squinch]

21. Seems like that is just common sense, but this thread is teaching me that

some people find it impossible to stick to that rule for a full work day.

... sometimes I can't even...

[cwydro]

95. This thread has been an eye opener for sure.

Most men who makes these type jokes think they’re being clever or funny, but most women think these men are acting like juvenile creeps.

Anyone who can’t get through a workday without making a sexual joke is pathetically immature.

[Squinch]

121. It's kind of funny. I was in an office job during the 80's and 90's when women just

grinned and bore it. There were guys that we though were kind of geezers (they were lots younger than I am now!) but they would always be making "wink wink, nudge nudge" jokes to the young women. To be fair, they were a lot more raunchy than the one in the OP.

We would smile or laugh because we were young and because, in those days, God forbid if a woman was not polite or "couldn't take a joke."

But inside we were always rolling our eyes and groaning. We would talk about how creepy it was. But all those guys just thought we thought they were hilarious and they were the coolest things on the planet.

I'm kind of shocked to see that still goes on.

[cwydro]

122. Been there. Experienced that too.

The would always look around to see if everyone was enjoying their pathetic attempt at humor.

If these men (including the OP) who seems to think his little “joke” is funny, had any idea what women REALLY think about their “jokes” - they’d be humiliated.

[Squinch]

123. That's my take too.

What I'd really like to say sometimes is, "For the love of God, just save yourselves the embarrassment!" But I don't think I could ever make myself understood except to the other women who have been on the receiving end.

[cwydro]

127. It is no longer anything that happens frequently.

But if it does, I put my hand up and just say NO, we are not going there.

They usually look shocked as hell, but they stop lol.

Yeah, when younger, sad to admit I’d give a laugh, while repulsed inside. Grrr, wish I could go back in time.

[nolabear]

23. Oh let's not paint women as fragile flowers here.

Making a sexually tinged joke in the room with a female coworker who hasn't made it clear she is intimidated or frightened by it is hardly the same as targeting her. You could say the same about a conservative religious person of either sex. Or just a sexually conservative person.

I suppose it's possible to never make a sexual joke in certain environments but it's bordering on fanaticism and the loss of a whole lot of humor. That joke isn't even too salacious for prime time TV.

I am getting worried that men are going to start scapegoating women as so fragile that we become objectified in the way women in fundamentalist countries are.

[whathehell]

36. They''re not, but is it really so hard to keep the jokes clean while at work?

I'd think not.

[nolabear]

39. That was really tame though. I can certainly see not being grotesque or insulting

but that was silly, self-referential braggadocio.

[whathehell]

44. Do you mean the joke

made by the OP?...If so, I agree.

[nolabear]

53. Yes, that joke.

[whathehell]

129. Gotcha

and as I said, that seemed pretty tame.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

40. Avoiding sexual jokes at work is not fanaticism.

[nolabear]

43. Does that particular joke deserve reporting to HR or the boss then?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

55. Depends on several things: the sexual harassment policy at the company, the people who hear it,

company culture, whether this is the first incident or the fifth. Why people think it's worth it to make a tired, unfunny "joke" when it's clear from other threads they don't understand at-will employment is beyond me, though.

[RandomAccess]

52. Yeah, I pretty much agree

If jokes like that are made all the time, and they're gloated over, it can create a hostile working environment.

But this wasn't aimed at any one person (at least as I read it), and sounded like it just popped out of his mouth. This type of occasional event doesn't strike me in any way as sexual harassment.

[tymorial]

68. I understand what you are saying but it isn't worth it

It isn't scapegoating its self protection. A couple years ago I saw a co-worker brought in to HR because he offered advice on a project to a female co-worker. He was older than her in more experienced at the job and thought he could help with a project she was assigned. She took great offense and felt as though he was being misogynistic and overbearing by mansplaining the job to her. Those were her words. It was preposterous and this guy is probably the gentlest person you could know.

He still got written up and had to apologize when he did nothing wrong. No it's not scapegoating its self protection.

I now work for my own practice but when I was in an office a lot of things changed over the last few years. The atmosphere was not nearly as collaborative and open as it could have been. Some men are not willing to go the extra mile to help female co-workers because that can be construed as improper attention. This has nothing to do with sex but it's still not worth it in many situations.

If I could help a female colleague with a project I would probably offer my advice to a third party such as a manager rather than go to them directly. Maybe that sounds mean or scapegoating I view it as self protection.

[nolabear]

97. Boy do I wish men and women could discuss this openly.

When we talk about these situations we all think we envision them the same way, but there are all kinds of predatory behaviors and also misunderstandings, ignorance, trauma responses and yes, overreactions. One of these days I hope we can come together and recognize that it’s possible to acknowledge all of that. But this has to shake out and men do have to recognize how one man’s relatively innocent comment on top of a lifetime of abuse and fear of abuse can cause an understandable but out of scale reaction. Men have to work out how to stop the behaviors that make us see it that way.

[tymorial]

101. I do understand what you are saying

It is true that one's previous actions and experiences can cause a relapse of trauma which result in perhaps an "out of scale reaction." I believe that to be a very apt description of what can occur. Those out of scale reactions however can have consequences which can be devastating. A single accusation can ruin a person entirely. This isn't victim blaming or shaming what so ever. I have some patients who have experienced sexual abuse in their past and I was assaulted when I was 22.

Still, it isn't scapegoating to protect oneself from being placed into a situation that can lead to misunderstanding and horrible consequence. I used to teach voice lessons and piano lessons after I graduated from college. In voice lessons I would discuss the physicality of breath control, putting hand on stomach to understand support. We would go through breathing exercises. In piano lessons I would sit next to my students during the lesson and demonstrate. I would help them use their hands in the proper position and discuss posture. It was great money and I had a ton of fun. I remember leaving one of those positions and a young girl of 8 years old was devastated that I was leaving. In her last lesson, she gave me a drawing she made and gave me a hug. Her mom had this look of sadness because her daughter was upset. It was such a touching moment that I will cherish. Today I would never allow such close contact even with the mother present. I had two teenage girls that I taught voice together a couple of years later. They weren't taking the class seriously and they weren't practicing so I told them that they needed to take the lessons more seriously. That it was irresponsible of me to take their parents money when they were using the time to socialize and party. They went back to their mother and said "I was mean to them." They complained to the school and my classes were observed for the next month. The mother came to see me the next class and asked what happened. I told her of the situation and the daughter's fessed up. The mother apologized profusely and the girls did as well. Things were fine after that, this was 12 years ago.

I will never teach music again even though I loved it. Too. Much. Risk.

Yes, some behaviors are unacceptable and some men need to learn some professionalism and self reflection. That isn't the whole story. I do believe the women and men who have come forward naming those who have accused them. I do believe that there is an obligation to believe someone when they state they have been abused. The problem is though, if someone is actually innocent, they will never BE innocent again. That too is a problem.

[TexasBushwhacker]

130. You could always ask if they need any help

before "mansplaining". If she didn't ask for help or advice, butt out.

[True Dough]

77. I have been in a work environment

where I was the only man in a room with three female co-workers. The sorts of risque things they were saying would have made Madonna blush (the raunchy singer, not the virgin Mary). I wasn't the "target" of any of it and I did not file a complaint or protest. I feigned disgust, which made them laugh even more. And that was that.

If it was the reverse -- myself, two male co-workers and one female co-worker -- and the men were making off-color remarks, I probably would have been mindful of how our female colleague was reacting to what she was hearing. If she seemed put off by it, I would urge my male co-workers to show a little more respect.

That said, the same would apply if the conversation turned to nationality or ethnicity and some sort of stereotype was broached and it made a male colleague uncomfortable to hear it. I would speak up and ask the offending party to be more civil.

[nolabear]

98. Its because you were not perceived as prey.

Women do get raunchy. Raunchy is fun when the power differential is skewed toward everyone feeling safe. Sadly, men have been predators for so long that you have to go overboard not to alarm women and many can’t imagine they’re alarming you because you’re more powerful. Of course not always true, and inconsiderate. It’s part of what we now might have to figure out.

[Doodley]

80. Well said, and too much PC is used as a weapon by the right.

[oberliner]

28. Have you never had any sexual harassment training at work?

Before or since?

[sweetloukillbot]

69. That was my thought...

I have to watch a badly acted "compliance" video about sexual harassment every year. This isn't brain surgery.

[milestogo]

41. Childish, annoying, and harassment.

[Xolodno]

46. It really depends on the person...

With some people I wouldn't even acknowledge they are the opposite sex....with others, I'm put to shame with the jokes.

[nini]

54. I would say it depends on the relationship with those employees

The group I'm in is Tech oriented. I am the only female with about 15 guys. I am older than all of them.

We are a close group - almost like family. I have thrown the 'that's what she said' back at them and can out insult them at every turn - jokingly of course. We say that kind of stuff to each other when joking. I would never go to another group and throw that line out there because I do not know them as well. But, they also know not to pull the 'c' word around me or insult women in general - that kind of stuff is no bueno and they know they'll pay for it.

What works for us may not work for other places/groups. Know your audience and if ever in doubt keep the mouth shut is the safest thing to do.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

58. Depends on the sexual harassment policy at the company, the people who hear it, company culture,

etc. With all those variables, it's beyond me why people think it's worth it to fight for the right to say a tired, unfunny, unoriginal joke.

[doc03]

70. What about women that make sexual jokes and inuendos. Then when

they have a disagreement with a male worker she goes to management and complains about him
making some inappropriate remark. Don't say it doesn't happen I have witnessed it several times.
I have heard women talk like a drunken sailor and then complain to management about a guy doing it.
I saw people fired for it. The man is not always guilty.

[Doodley]

83. Good point. It does go both ways, especially with women bosses.

[teenagebambam]

72. But seriously....

...I teach voice lessons at the college level. The nature of the instruction is one-on-one.

I might insert here that I am an openly gay man. I teach students of both sexes.

The nature of voice teaching is very physical, as far as ascertaining a student's posture, breathing habits, areas of tension, etc. Sometimes it involves me touching a student to ascertain these things (I always ask before touching. And always teach in a room with a windowed door.)

I also freely say things that were said to me when I was a student, like, "Breathe from your groin", or, "Please sing with a full testicular complement".

The nature of teaching ANY kind of performance art is establishing an environment of trust. Performers must be prepared to be emotionally open to their teacher, their fellow performers, and to their audiences. Sometimes physically open as well.

I don't exactly know where I'm going with this. Except to say the current climate has me questioning almost every action I may have taken in a 15-year career.

[Doodley]

82. Yes, it only takes one to complain. We are moving into the Hyper-PC Age.

[treestar]

73. I am not really sure I get it but seems it

it implies this 19-year-old had sex with the 40-year-old. I would have felt really icky about that suggestion at 19.

[brettdale]

86. OH LET ME MAKE IT CLEAR

In no way, in my delivery of the joke ,did I implied that the other person in the
room (the one that was 19) was the "SHE" in the joke.

And the 19 year old didnt take it take way either.

Yeppers, that would be completly disgusting and if anyone did that, they should be fired.

[woolldog]

126. Well see, that post your responding to is a perfect example of why

my approach (described elsewhere in this thread) is the best. Even if your joke doesn't offend 99 out of 100 women, all it takes is one, who misunderstands or is unreasonable, to make a mere allegation and you're done. Doesn't matter how upstanding you are. Look at the BS Franken is dealing with.

[Dem2]

74. We're all thinking about situations at work

Among peers who've worked together for decades, most would admit that there's more leeway. I'm not fond of crude jokes over a large age-gap, much more likely there will be a misunderstanding. I avoid all but the most innocuous jokes in these cases.

[TheFrenchRazor]

75. how often do you make those kind of "jokes?" i worked at a place where there were a lot of

young guys working there, and they were constantly talking about dicks, pussies, graphic descriptions of various sex acts, and let me tell you, when you here your 50th dick "joke" that week, it really starts to get old (apparently not to the guys making them, though).

[Doodley]

81. OMG! Very disrespectful of them.

[orleans]

76. sinkingfeeling mentioned the

sexual revolution.
ah youth.
it seems like so many people are splitting hairs over this crap nowadays.
and all this little shit only serves to minimize and distract from the important things--the times when it *was* horribly wrong or inappropriate etc.

remember a few years back when college students were having meltdowns because they weren't "comfortable" discussing certain topics in their classes? omg!

years ago i used to do "that's what my date said" and that line always made people laugh.

times have changed.

no one should have to suffer the slings and arrows of sexual harassment or harassment in any form. but a "that's what she said" is hardly sexual harassment.

so, in answer to your question--i would say NO, it would not be considered a serious form of abuse. and no, neither of your workmates would be justified in making a complaint over your stupid joke years later.

[ucrdem]

84. Think of it as a Democratic issue.

Most if not all legislation penalizing unfair workplace discrimination, including sexual harassment, which includes sexual innuendo, comes from Democrats, and is implemented by Democratic (as in Obama-Biden) administrations, which is why there was a lot of movement along these lines over the last several years. Seems to have slowed down, meaning I haven't had to click through a powerpoint lately, but it's definitely a Democratic phenom.

In other words, yes but it's a good thing.

p.s. but only if someone files a complaint. If no one is offended, or concerned that others might be offended, you can joke away, but the problem is it's impossible to know what is and isn't offensive to any particular individual, whether they openly express objections or not, so it's better to not go there, at least in mixed company.

[Skittles]

85. there is a difference between occasional risque humor and PREDATORY behavior

that makes all the difference

[yardwork]

88. It's best not to make sexual jokes at work.

[Lee-Lee]

90. It may be

It all depends on the environment, how your coworkers take it, and other factors.

If it makes anyone uncomfortable and creates a hostile work environment then yes, it is.

One thing to keep in mind is you don’t know your workers sexual history, beliefs or anything else. If you had a coworker that was devoutly religious who found any such comment from a member of her opposite sex (or same sex) offense if would be. What if your coworker was Muslim and any mention of sex from someone not a spouse was offense to them? And keep in mind you don’t know your coworkers history. They could be a survivor or sexual abuse or sexual trauma for who a simple comment like that could cause lots of discomfort or worse.

Don’t see everything through the lens of your life and what you feel to determine what “appropriate” is.

[Squinch]

119. THIS!!!!

Don’t see everything through the lens of your life and what you feel to determine what “appropriate” is.

That's the guts of this conversation, and that's what some in this thread seem absolutely unable to grasp.

You said it better than I could.

[jmg257]

96. A "serious form of abuse"? No - but if it makes someone uncomfortable - it is harassment.

[Caliman73]

99. The honest answer is that it all depends. To some it isn't to some, it is.

Anything that creates a hostile work environment for someone involving sexual innuendo, etc... could be considered harassment. Not in a criminal sense most likely, but for the purpose of disciplinary action by the employer, certainly. If you and another work friend were looking at the latest Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition and a female, or male co-worker took offense, that could be considered creating a hostile work environment. Similarly, at a company sponsored party, say you had a bit too much to drink and told a co-worker she looked "hot" and she took offense, it could be problematic for you. So again, the answer is it depends. It is highly unlikely to be seen as seriously as grabbing a co-workers breasts or genitals, or stalking a co-worker, but it would likely get you a warning and possibly a class on diversity in the workplace.

Personally I would not be offended by a joke like that, but I would be sensitive to the reactions of others, especially women, and most especially in a workplace that is dominated by men. As other people said, many people laugh at things they do not particularly enjoy, or even find offensive in order to fit in. Some of the newer research in social psychology suggests that the drive to fit in socially is much stronger than had even been postulated, that fear of being ostracized has significant physical and chemical impact on our brains, possibly even shortening our lifespan. So, people saying that "you should just stand up for yourself", while not invalid, it is much easier to say than to actually do and we all succumb to group dynamics at least occasionally.

[LuckyCharms]

100. As a male, I've used this phrase before, but never so a woman could hear, and...

only in front of men who I have known for years. I think it may be offensive to women (maybe not, but why risk it), and it might also be offensive to some men.

Better to know your audience.

[LAS14]

103. The idea of labeling "discomfort" as evidence of...

... actionable harassment makes me tired. A lot of stuff needs to stop, and shining light on it is a good step. But a lot of women need to grow up and just tell the guys to fuck off, in one way or another.

[MineralMan]

106. It's exceedingly difficult for a subordinate to tell someone to "fuck off."

There's no good way to do that, really. You're explaining what you think women should do, but ignoring the realities of the workplace in doing so, I think.

Really, if the language someone uses and the general tone of any non-business conversation has the effect of making a co-worker or subordinate uncomfortable, then something is wrong. When it comes to business, explaining why a particular thing is incorrect or should be done a different way might make someone uncomfortable, but that's not personal.

The minute someone moves away from business and gets personal with conversation or actions, the rules change. If what you're doing is making someone you work with uncomfortable in such a case, you're wrong. Plainly wrong. Personal interactions at work should be safe for all involved. Someone's "discomfort" should always be considered.

"A lot of women" should be treated politely and like valued members of the team at work. They shouldn't be told to "grow up," "take it in stride," "get over it" or any other such nonsense.

[LAS14]

108. Right. I would include threat to one's career as an actionable....

... threat, whether it is for sexual favors or any other kind of blackmail. And, of course, "discomfort," should be avoided in polite society. But it shouldn't be legislated into workplace rules, in my humble opinion. And certainly not into law.

[Squinch]

120. Discomfort is NOT evidence of actionable harassment. The law specifically says that harassment

is NOT any single act, no matter how offensive, unless physical abuse has taken place.

If it is verbal or environmental harassment, it has to be repeated and long term and intrusive.

And no, as often as not the women CAN'T tell the guys to fuck off without making the workplace even more hostile toward them or without getting fired.

[Oneironaut]

112. I probably would have laughed out loud. Thats hilarious.

The Office (US) was a great show. I pictured you as Michael Scott in this situation saying it.

Not everybody is the same, though. Also, it depends on the person telling the joke.

I think the difference is that this was a one-off thing that was meant as a joke. A lot of the sexual harassers in the news are just assholes who do it as a power thing, or because they’re being disgusting creeps. They do it over and over to multiple people.

[tammywammy]

124. Michael Scott isn't a manager or person people should emulate in the workplace.

Funny show I agree, but it would be hell on earth working for such an unprofessional and harassing on multiple levels type of manager.

[gollygee]

115. Usually to meet the definition of harassment, it has to be a continuing thing

One joke wouldn't meet the definition unless it was really over the top and possibly directed at someone specifically. If you were making crude jokes all the time and creating a hostile work environment, though, that would be another thing.

[Bonx]

116. Jokes are usually at *someones* expense, so I just avoid humor to be safe and not hurt feelings.