Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

brentspeak

(18,290 posts)
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 01:17 PM Jan 2012

There's no guarantee that Obama won't still have US citizens held indefinitely w/out trial



Obama said. “I want to clarify that my Administration will not authorize the indefinite military detention without trial of American citizens. Indeed, I believe that doing so would break with our most important traditions and values as a Nation.”


Wait. Rewind. Go back. This is a President who's broken many of the most major promises he's made -- and they've been whoppers of strongly-made vows followed by breathtaking reversals (renegotiating NAFTA, ending the Bush tax cuts, importation of pharma drugs, closing Gitmo, opposition to the current free trade treaties he just signed, to mention just a few). His signing of NDAA itself is yet another embarrassing broken promise.

It's not gratuitous to say that the President's word is as good as mud.

36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
There's no guarantee that Obama won't still have US citizens held indefinitely w/out trial (Original Post) brentspeak Jan 2012 OP
Can you quote his promise to veto NDAA? Robb Jan 2012 #1
Crickets, I see. Unsurprising. Robb Jan 2012 #27
Do ProSense Jan 2012 #2
On brentspeak Jan 2012 #3
I've ProSense Jan 2012 #4
You brentspeak Jan 2012 #24
True Dat Phlem Jan 2012 #26
This administration has already ordered the execution of citizens without trial. Warren Stupidity Jan 2012 #5
your post illustrates the Mt. Everest sized insanity of those endlessly justifying Obama's actions Vinnie From Indy Jan 2012 #8
Precisely. nt EFerrari Jan 2012 #35
You said that he broke "many of the most major promises he's made." Are you allowed to say that? AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2012 #6
Interesting ProSense Jan 2012 #7
Actually, AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2012 #14
Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #19
Actually, ProSense Jan 2012 #29
yawn Phlem Jan 2012 #28
Tired? n/t ProSense Jan 2012 #30
yes of your NonSense Phlem Jan 2012 #34
There's no guarantee of anything treestar Jan 2012 #9
LOL! Vinnie From Indy Jan 2012 #11
And then if you really want to knock 'em for a loop jberryhill Jan 2012 #12
Many of them were lawyers treestar Jan 2012 #25
Not to worry, everythings cool. Just ask the Japanese Americans who were around in the '40s. Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2012 #10
Hey ProSense Jan 2012 #13
What is the point you were making? That interning people is OK if done by a Democrat? Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2012 #17
Note that he said "will not" rather than "cannot". Zhade Jan 2012 #15
Wow, that's a lot of wiggle room. Major Hogwash Jan 2012 #18
It looks to me like those things you say he broke promises on are really BootinUp Jan 2012 #16
Actually, it kinda looks like... brentspeak Jan 2012 #20
Yeah, well I'm sure you would like to make that stick BootinUp Jan 2012 #31
Yes, it is accurate. Remember the scandal that happened the same weekend EFerrari Jan 2012 #36
Remember, too, his placement of Raytheon's former top lobbyist in charge of the Pentagon's mgmt AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2012 #33
There's no evidence that he will either. JohnnyRingo Jan 2012 #21
The word I used was "guarantee", not "evidence" brentspeak Jan 2012 #22
One important thing Fox News and your post share is a common goal. JohnnyRingo Jan 2012 #32
What part of "nation of men, not laws" don't you understand? cthulu2016 Jan 2012 #23

Robb

(39,665 posts)
1. Can you quote his promise to veto NDAA?
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 01:21 PM
Jan 2012

I seem to recall the word "if" in there, and some conditions that were satisfied. You have a different memory of events, perhaps.

Edited to add: The Statement of Administration Policy (SAP) regarding the NDAA is at the bottom of this story: http://metroweekly.com/poliglot/2011/05/white-house-opposes-dadt-marri.html

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
2. Do
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 01:22 PM
Jan 2012

"There's no guarantee that Obama won't still have US citizens held indefinitely w/out trial"

...you have any evidence other than conjecture to support this claim?

There isn't any guarantee the President isn't going to declare himself President for a second term using the emergency rule.

brentspeak

(18,290 posts)
3. On
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 01:45 PM
Jan 2012
this page you will find the evidence you requested. Since the NDAA law specifically permits and specifically doesn't prevent a President from authorizing indefinite detention without trial, there is, therefore, no guarantee that any President won't actually do so.

Hope that helps.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
4. I've
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 01:48 PM
Jan 2012

"this page you will find the evidence you requested. Since the NDAA law specifically permits and specifically doesn't prevent a President from authorizing indefinite detention without trial, there is, therefore, no guarantee that any President won't actually do so. "

...read it. It has nothing to do with the theory in your OP: "There's no guarantee that Obama won't still have US citizens held indefinitely w/out trial"

You supported that theory with conjecture.

brentspeak

(18,290 posts)
24. You
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 03:35 PM
Jan 2012

mean I've answered your question with a direct link to the bill Obama signed into law, and you're too flummoxed to do anything other than stick your fingers in your ears.


 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
5. This administration has already ordered the execution of citizens without trial.
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 01:51 PM
Jan 2012

Last edited Sun Jan 1, 2012, 05:38 PM - Edit history (1)

Almost the entire signing statement is about negating any and all congressional regulation of the executive with respect to its conduct of a permanent war of global scope.

Vinnie From Indy

(10,820 posts)
8. your post illustrates the Mt. Everest sized insanity of those endlessly justifying Obama's actions
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 02:05 PM
Jan 2012

in regard to indefinite detention of American citizens. The fact is that Obama has not only claimed the right to kill American citizens he has done exactly that. His claims and actions prove without a doubt that this President claims the right to kill Americans far from any battlefield at his discretion alone. Fighting about whether Obama can imprison Americans without due process is a minor thing compared to what has already occurred.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
6. You said that he broke "many of the most major promises he's made." Are you allowed to say that?
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 01:52 PM
Jan 2012

Aren't you concerned that you'll be called a "purist" or something?

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
7. Interesting
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 01:55 PM
Jan 2012

"Aren't you concerned that you'll be called a 'purist' or something?"

...question, especially since no one called the OP that.

Still, he also kept a lot of major promises: Repealing DADT, enacting health care reform, rejecting and reaffirming that the U.S. does not torture and closing the CIA torture camps, and ending the Iraq war.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
14. Actually,
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 02:30 PM
Jan 2012

1. He did not end the Iraq war. He ended the occupation by those wearing military uniforms.

U.S.-financed wars involving persons not wearing military uniforms are called "covert wars."

2. He did not reject and reaffirm that the U.S. does not torture. After Cheney openly admitted his role as the Vice-President representing the United States in authorizing waterboarding (i.e., torture), his failure to order that any action be taken against Cheney and failure to even condemn Cheney's actions shows that he did not and does not reject torture.

Guantanamo guests who go on hunger strikes, and who are force fed with rubber hoses put down their gullets like ducks being force-fed for foie gras prodution, are tortured. It's no excuse to blame the Republicans for not financing the closing of Gitmo when the Chief Executive has the Army and Navy behind him, and can even hold press conferences on a monthy, weekly, or even daily basis to challenge and criticize the Republicans. You probably criticize the Republicans more than he does.

We do not know that all CIA torture camps were closed. There is no factual basis for that claim. What we do know is that Obama went to the CIA headquarters and reassured CIA employees that there would be no prosecutions for any torture activities or the destruction of the CIA video tapes showing such torture.

3. He did not promise to sign a Bill for the mandatory-purchase of health insurance, a concept that originated with the Republicans in general and Senator Grassley in particular. Or at least he did not promise that to us when he was running as a candidate.

4. If you think that repealing DADT outweighs all other actions taken by Obama, including bailing out and not prosecuting any of the banksters, then you're welcome to that view. Rove used that as a wedge issue while knowing that Sen. Larry Craig and that other high-level Republican politicians and high-level financial supporters were secretly in favor of the activities which they publicly condemned. We don't have to have to accept the repealing of DADT as the sine qua non of whether all of Obama's actions should be approved. You can do so if you want. But the rest of us are not required to do so, and we are free to examine his actions.

5. It's good that you find the advance reference to "purist" as being interesting. If this means that you don't call those who value traditional Democratic values to be "purists," then good for you.

Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #14)

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
29. Actually,
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 04:22 PM
Jan 2012
2. He did not reject and reaffirm that the U.S. does not torture. After Cheney openly admitted his role as the Vice-President representing the United States in authorizing waterboarding (i.e., torture), his failure to order that any action be taken against Cheney and failure to even condemn Cheney's actions shows that he did not and does not reject torture.

Guantanamo guests who go on hunger strikes, and who are force fed with rubber hoses put down their gullets like ducks being force-fed for foie gras prodution, are tortured. It's no excuse to blame the Republicans for not financing the closing of Gitmo when the Chief Executive has the Army and Navy behind him, and can even hold press conferences on a monthy, weekly, or even daily basis to challenge and criticize the Republicans. You probably criticize the Republicans more than he does.

We do not know that all CIA torture camps were closed. There is no factual basis for that claim. What we do know is that Obama went to the CIA headquarters and reassured CIA employees that there would be no prosecutions for any torture activities or the destruction of the CIA video tapes showing such torture.

...the ACLU disagrees with you.

No policy or practice of the last decade has brought greater shame on America. But the stain of torture extends far beyond the damage to the nation’s moral standing. The use of torture—and the failure to engage in any formal legal reckoning—has degraded the rule of law in ways that continue to metastasize. President Obama categorically disavowed torture when he came to office, and closed the secret CIA prisons where so much of the abuse took place.14 But the President’s political calculation that the nation must look forward and not backward leaves the door open to future abuses.

http://www.aclu.org/files/assets/acalltocourage.pdf


And he did end the Iraq war: http://www.democraticunderground.com/100295645

And instead of speculating, as the OP does, about what Obama might do, while ignoring his statement to the contrary, support the claim with real evidence like this showing Bush did just that, Human Rights Watch, 2003:

<...>

The line between war and law enforcement gained importance as the U.S. government extended its military efforts against terrorism outside of Afghanistan and Pakistan. In November, the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency used a missile to kill Qaid Salim Sinan al-Harethi, an alleged senior al-Qaeda official, and five companions as they were driving in a remote and lawless area of Yemen controlled by tribal chiefs. Washington accused al-Harethi of masterminding the October 2000 bombing of the U.S.S. Cole which had killed seventeen sailors. Based on the limited information available, Human Rights Watch did not criticize the attack on al-Harethi as an extra-judicial execution because his alleged al-Qaeda role arguably made him a combatant, the government apparently lacked control over the area in question, and there evidently was no reasonable law enforcement alternative. Indeed, eighteen Yemeni soldiers had reportedly been killed in a prior attempt to arrest al-Harethi. However, the U.S. government made no public effort to justify this use of its war powers or to articulate the legal limits to such powers. It is Human Rights Watch's position that even someone who might be classified as an enemy combatant should not be subject to military attack when reasonable law enforcement means are available. The failure to respect this principle would risk creating a huge loophole in due process protections worldwide. It would leave everyone open to being summarily killed anyplace in the world upon the unilateral determination by the United States (or, as the approach is inevitably emulated, by any other government) that he or she is an enemy combatant.

<...>

The appropriate line between war and law enforcement was crossed in the case of Jose Padilla, a U.S. citizen who the Bush administration claimed had flown from Pakistan to the United States to investigate creating a radiological bomb. The Bush administration arrested him as he arrived in the United States, but instead of charging him with this serious criminal offense and bringing him to trial, it unilaterally declared him an "enemy combatant." That designation, it claimed, permitted it to hold him without access to counsel and without charge or trial until the end of the war against terrorism, which may never come. With no link to a discernible battlefield, that assertion of power, again, threatens to create a giant exception to the most basic criminal justice guarantees. Anyone could be picked up and detained forever as an "enemy combatant" upon the unverified claim of the Bush administration or any other government. As the year ended, the U.S. courts were considering this radical claim.

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/wr2k3/introduction.html



Phlem

(6,323 posts)
34. yes of your NonSense
Mon Jan 2, 2012, 02:13 PM
Jan 2012

And no, Obama isn't the best president of my lifetime. I'm still waiting. And talk about setting the bar low.

-p

treestar

(82,383 posts)
9. There's no guarantee of anything
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 02:07 PM
Jan 2012

Well, maybe that a Republican President might try it, this NDAA or not.

We need to quit making black and white issues out of thorny, tangled legal issues.

Vinnie From Indy

(10,820 posts)
11. LOL!
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 02:12 PM
Jan 2012

I am imagining you in a room with the founding fathers of America repeating your silly idea that "We need to quit making black and white issues out of thorny, tangled legal issues." The looks on their faces would undoubtedly have been priceless. Cheers!

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
12. And then if you really want to knock 'em for a loop
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 02:25 PM
Jan 2012

Try suggesting they free their slaves or let women vote, lol!

Rabid... just rabid civil libertarians they were.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
25. Many of them were lawyers
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 03:59 PM
Jan 2012

They would be LOL-ing at you.

They would be writing letters back and forth about this provision. Some would argue it was OK, others than it was not.

Zhade

(28,702 posts)
15. Note that he said "will not" rather than "cannot".
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 02:31 PM
Jan 2012

Also, "any bill I sign must have a public option". His word is useless.

BootinUp

(47,141 posts)
16. It looks to me like those things you say he broke promises on are really
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 02:31 PM
Jan 2012

things he hasn't changed his position on but couldn't deliver due to the opposition. I doubt the fact scoring orgs would rate those as broken promises. But I am sure this will not slow you down in your effort to attack the Presidents character by calling him a liar essentially.

brentspeak

(18,290 posts)
20. Actually, it kinda looks like...
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 02:55 PM
Jan 2012

Last edited Sun Jan 1, 2012, 03:41 PM - Edit history (1)

...you really don't know what you're talking about.



It looks to me like those things you say he broke promises on are really things he hasn't changed his position on but couldn't deliver due to the opposition.


What "opposition" is preventing Obama from renegotiating NAFTA? Obama doesn't require Congressional approval on the matter. He also doesn't need a majority of Republicans or Democrats or anyone else to simply issue an executive order and close Gitmo; he's the Commander-in-Chief.

BTW, what "opposition" forced Obama to sign the KORUS, Panama, and Columbia free trade agreements? Trick question: he did a 180 and completely reversed his Senate-era position on the matter; alongside the GOP and the US Chamber of Commerce, he's now the "free trade" agreements' biggest supporter.

BootinUp

(47,141 posts)
31. Yeah, well I'm sure you would like to make that stick
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 04:33 PM
Jan 2012

In order to make your case, you first have to understand what would even be considered a promise. I don't think "Obama promised to renegotiate NAFTA" is even accurate.

The Gitmo situation is about the only one where you have him. Personally I believe he relied on the wrong people when it came to analyzing that whole mess and what needed to be done and how to do it. As far as I know he still intends to close it.

The bush tax cuts on incomes over 250,000 is still strongly opposed and has been stuck in battles with congress. The day we have a dictatorship is the day you can blame Obama for that one.

On the free trade issues, the Obama administration will claim that the new agreements are better by measures that liberals care about than previous agreements.

On the NDAA, its another case of bargaining with the a-holes in congress and trying to get the best thing he can. But don't worry your head about the complexities of the real world. It only puts gray hairs there sooner, and its so much easier to just talk out of your butt.

EFerrari

(163,986 posts)
36. Yes, it is accurate. Remember the scandal that happened the same weekend
Mon Jan 2, 2012, 02:30 PM
Jan 2012

Obama was saying that here, one of his campaign people was up in Canada telling people there that Obama didn't mean it?

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
33. Remember, too, his placement of Raytheon's former top lobbyist in charge of the Pentagon's mgmt
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 05:41 PM
Jan 2012

only days after taking office.
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1874165,00.html

No Republican opposition required him to do that.

No one can explain in a credible and sensible way how this is not just business as usual.

JohnnyRingo

(18,628 posts)
21. There's no evidence that he will either.
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 02:59 PM
Jan 2012

I think I'll be able to sleep at night after the signing of yet another in a long line of defense bills, and we won't be reading about it here anymore after some new "biggest disappointment ever" surfaces next week.

I see a pattern that mimics the basic format at Fox News, except over there Sean Hannity finds some new reason why Obama is the most dangerous liberal in the country each week and wrings his hands furiously in angst until the next ratings boost introduces itself.

brentspeak

(18,290 posts)
22. The word I used was "guarantee", not "evidence"
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 03:31 PM
Jan 2012

The lack of a guarantee is the whole point of the bill Obama signed into law.

And if you enjoy misrepresenting the NDAA law as simply a boring, standard defense bill allocating funds for upgraded Tomahawk missile silos or a Pentagon office renovation, maybe the Fox News "pattern" you're muttering about is actually staring you right in the mirror.

JohnnyRingo

(18,628 posts)
32. One important thing Fox News and your post share is a common goal.
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 04:46 PM
Jan 2012

Ensuring that Obama only serves one term.

What's on the agenda for next week's show?

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
23. What part of "nation of men, not laws" don't you understand?
Sun Jan 1, 2012, 03:33 PM
Jan 2012

There is no reason to codify our values in law. They will be reliably upheld by a series of reality TV stars.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»There's no guarantee that...