Court in shock as Norway gunman describes massacre

[ellisonz]

Source: Associated Press

By JULIA GRONNEVET and KARL RITTER | Associated Press – 23 mins ago

OSLO, Norway (AP) — Norwegians who lost loved ones on Utoya island gasped and sobbed Friday as far-right fanatic Anders Behring Breivik described in harrowing detail how he gunned down teenagers as they fled in panic or froze before him, paralyzed with fear.

Survivors and victims' relatives hugged, cried and shook, trying to comfort each other during testimony that completed the first week of Breivik's trial for a bombing-and-shooting rampage that left 77 people dead on July 22.

"I'm going back to my hometown tonight ... my husband, he's going to drive me out to the sea, and I'm going to take a walk there and I'm going to scream my head off," said Christin Bjelland, a spokeswoman for victims' support group.

Breivik's defense lawyers had warned the bereaved that his testimony about the Utoya massacre, where 69 people were killed, would be difficult to hear. Still, the shock was palpable in the 200-seat courtroom as the self-styled crusader rolled out his gruesome account, without any sign of emotion.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/court-shock-norway-gunman-describes-massacre-124453974--finance.html

[abelenkpe]

1. Breivik is a sociopath

What he did is inexcusable.

[jakeXT]

2. Strange as ever

But then, he said, he thought, "It is now or never."

He considered for a minute, as "100 voices in his head said don't do it." Then he picked up his gun and started shooting.

...

Near the end of his rampage, he spared the lives of a girl and boy that he thought were obviously younger than 16, Breivik said, telling how the boy had burst into tears.

...

The first two killings were the hardest, he said. "I knew it was wrong. Taking life is the most extreme action you can do."

http://www.wgal.com/news/national/Norway-s-Breivik-says-he-learned-from-al-Qaeda/-/9360498/11226482/-/view/print/-/12i3om5/-/index.html

[ellisonz]

4. Some here call that "lizard brain"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117229201#post80

[jakeXT]

7. According to your article he couldn't remember

large chunks of his 90 minutes on Utoya.

A fan of Al Quaeda,OKC Bombing and WTC bombing, plagiarizing his manifesto from MK Ultra victim Ted Kaczynski.... smell like something else to me.

[MiddleFingerMom]

11. Read Tom Robbins "Jitterbug Perfume" (one of my all-time favorites)...

.
.
.
... where he talks about how we have evolved (mostly) away from the reptilian brain
to the animal brain (fauna) and are hopefully evolving toward the floral brain.
.
Interesting stuff, packaged in a hilarious romp of a novel.
.
.
.

[closeupready]

3. Words fail.

[ellisonz]

5. They do...

...sometimes all we have are screams.

[Diclotican]

6. ellisonz

ellisonz

It was a brutal "telling" when he described what happened that day.... And was calm as ice when he told to boot... He must ba a complete madman, for being able to do what he did, and tell about it later on in the way he did....

It have been a long, often brutal day listing to the news about him... But now it is weekend and we can kind of "digest" what we have been hearing and reading about... Next week, more evidence about his horrible crimes....

At least, it is pretty sure one thing - he will never be able to walk out the door as a free man again...

Diclotican

[ellisonz]

18. I don't think he'll ever be a "free man again" either.

I hope no one takes inspiration from this fool, but assuredly some will and that is sad.

[Diclotican]

24. ellisonz

ellisonz

If he ever was get out as a free man, it would be an uproar against that decision in Norway as ever before. That man DESERVE to rot in a prison cell for the rest of his life...

And I also hope no one takes inspiration from what he did - what he did is just, pure evil, nothing less... As some have said him to be. He was like an SS soldat from world war two. He -de-humanized his victims, made them into something that should be killed, as a danger to everyone else.. Like the SS did when they killed jews, or other "unwanted" people, who should be killed...

I think Breivik is a complete psychopath.. A person who is just so evil that he can justify everything because he did it for the "bigger good"... Norway doesn't have the death penalty - and haven't for more than a century (we was one of the first country's in Scandinavia to stop having death penalty already in the middle of 1800s, after 1849, in common law, death penalty was abolished and instead prisoners who else had ended in the gallows, was given life without parole - they was used often to make roads, or build things to the "better of the country".. If we have had the death penalty, i guess Breivik would be one of the really few, to be excecuted... What he did, is not easy to phantom for a peacefully nation like Norway... And I think most Norwegians is still stunned by the fact what he did...

Diclotican

[dixiegrrrrl]

26. "a maximum 21-year prison sentence " if found sane

Only 21 years for all those deaths????

[Diclotican]

28. dixiegrrrrl

dixiegrrrrl

The legal limit is 21 year that is correct - but we do have on the books laws, that say even after 21 year - if he is seen fit not to go back to society, he can, and possible will be kept in something called "protective custody". Where he Will be put in a prison cell - or more correct in a mental ward, and then kept there as long as it is legal to do so... And as current, people in protective custody, can be kept locked up for the rest of their natural life - or when they are not seen as a danger to anyone...

This case with mr Breivik is unknown territory, our justice system are not made for this type of crimes at all... It is more if you have killed one man you can get 21 year - and then leave when time is up.. Today we have a situation where a single person in cold blood murdered 79 innocent people, most of them at a youth camp.. And even hoped to murder most of the government by blowing up the government offices... He failed about the later, mostly because it was in the summer season - most was on holiday and even tho the damage was great, few got murdered there.. It was at Utøya most of the murders happened..

Diclotican

[Kablooie]

32. Norwegian prisons are humane also, aren't they?

with pleasant environments and a decent lifestyle compared to American prisons?

This guy doesn't deserve a humane prison.
He should be chained up in a dungeon and allowed to rot.

I wish I could give him cancer.

[Diclotican]

34. Kablooie

Kablooie

Compared to the standard in the US justice system I would say most Norwegian prisons is rather pleasant to be in - even tho the standard is somewhat different from prison to prison - it all depend of when it was build - and also how strict the prison is.. I have never been inside a prison - as a prisoner that be. So I can't tell how it is on the inside.. But compared to most prisons in the world, i would prefer to sit 21 year - to life in a Norwegian prison, rather than 1 year behind a prison in the US...

The idea behind prisons in Norway is to try to rehabilitate and then let people out again, not to keep them for as long as possible.. And even though the system is not perfect, they do a good job, making people decide not to go the criminal way again... But it is not an easy task, as the "system" have snags - and some prisoners is worse than the system was made for...

Breivik is in a league of its own, I think we have not seeing his like since the war crimes justice trials after world war two - where 46 people got the death penalty in the end - most of them because of treason... He doesn't deserve a human prison thats true - but we can not be cruel and in-human to him either - he can then complain to the justice system and maybe even get out.. And be a danger to the society as a whole again.. The best way is to keep in inside the prison system - treat him "human".. And then, when he got his prison sentence put him in a cell, and forget where the key are..

If the dungeons on Akershus Castle still was used as a prison, that would be a nice place to put Breivik.. But as it is, we have just to keep up with what we have in the modern prison system - and I doubt he will be put into one of the "nicer" prisons in Norway anytime soon.. In fact I believe he have to live in solitary confinement for a LONG time as even long time criminals have put it bluntly about what they wanted to do with him - if they ever got the chance...

Cancer would be to nice for him - even though some type of Cancers is nasty...

Diclotican

[tiny elvis]

45. thank you for some good norwegian input

i like your posts

[Diclotican]

46. tiny elvis

tiny elvis

I do my best

Diclotican

[SharonAnn]

37. 21 years for each? Or 21 years for all of them?

[TorchTheWitch]

49. 21 years maximum is the sentence

So that means 21 years for all of the murders. However, at the end of that time if he is still considered a danger to society he won't be let out and will never be let out until he is considered to be no longer a danger to society. This guy whether officially insane or sane isn't going anywhere for the rest of his life. There is no way on earth Norway will ever believe this guy is not a danger to society no matter how many years pass and no matter how much he may have a "come to Jesus" epiphany. His crime is absolutely unheard of in Norway and is far too shocking and appalling for anyone in that country to ever believe he can possibly be considered not to be a danger to society.

This guy is an absolute psychopath with "crazy eyes" even more disturbing than Manson. I've not seen a single photo of him where his eyes don't scare the ever-loving shit out of me. If the devil exists, he looks out of this dude's eyeballs - pure evil like I've never seen.

[sendero]

41. I would like a justice system.

.... that is not as arbitrary and punitive as ours, but definitely not one as insanely goofy as Norway's either.

While I might be able to see 20 years for murder as being palatable, it would need to be for EACH murder.

[Diclotican]

47. sendero

sendero

Well, the system is maybe Little goofy and weird for many to grasp - but it works for the most part... 9 out of 10 criminals are not re-lapsed when they are out again after been inside a prison.. How is it in USA about relapse into crime?... And we doesn't keep upward to 25 % of our population in a prison system for life either... It might be goofy and weird but something is making it right too...

But, when it came to Breivik, he is in a liga on its own, I doubt we ever have had anything like him since world war two .. But we can not punish him harder than the legal limits when the crime happened. And on 2011 the limit to be put in a prison was 21 year... But he can also be kept in protective custody as the court find necessary - so it is more than possible a chance that he never will go out as a free man... And as said before - if he ever was to leave prison as a free man sometimes in the future - many would be out for his life... Criminal gangs put a hit on his head just days after 22 july 2011.... (Yes we do have some criminal gangs here too)

Diclotican

[sendero]

48. I'm sure you are right...

.... and to be clear, of what I know of Norwegian society it is certainly preferable to ours in most ways.

But I'm sure you could see that 21 years might not be adequate for all instances of murder. A crime of passion, perhaps. A premeditated slaughter, no.

[freshwest]

19. Just tears, Diclotican. That's all I have.

[Diclotican]

22. freshwest

freshwest

You are not alone about that... And sometimes it is enough.. Thanks for the good vibes

Diclotican

[Ruby the Liberal]

29. I am sorry you all are having to relive this.

It is the process, but my heart aches for the families and friends of these victims. I followed your posts when this happened and understand that this isn't common for the Norwegian legal system to have to deal with. Here is hoping that a resolution is found to keep him locked up for the rest of his natural life.

[Diclotican]

31. Ruby the Liberal

Ruby the Liberal

It was a chock when it happened.. and we have to go true it again, to get true it, and start over and do better... And even though I have not directly been hurt by it, it was not exactly a good weekend when this happened for me - or for that matter for the weeks following when the stories about this outsold.. I can not phantom how it is for them who was hurt by this madman, or for the families and friends of the victims... It was horrible to learn, in the days following July 22, that many of them who was killed was so young - the youngest was just 11 when he was gunned down..

It is just not common for us, to experience this type of murders - and our criminal Justice system is not exactly made of this thing.. So I guess the justices have to make the road as they go it.. And I thing they will be very thorough before they get to the end - and he will end up in a prison cell for the rest of his life.. Or in a mental ward if he is not fit to sit in a prison...

Diclotican

[Ruby the Liberal]

33. I read through the link after I posted to you

and it made my blood run cold. He deserves his turn to testify on his own behalf, but I can't imagine what that was like for the victim's families to hear in such cold and heartless detail.

If you know - when is this supposed to end and a verdict be entered?

[Diclotican]

40. Ruby the Liberal

Ruby the Liberal

You must be a very hard person, not to make the blood run cold, what he did, and the coldness he showed when he did it - is in anyway horriblel... It must be hard, brutal and terrible to listen to the killers cold and heartless detail of what he did out at Utøya.. And at the government offices before...

The court have 10 weeks in all, to get true the proses - and a verdict entered... But it all depend of what the court decide is right - and I would believe, if it is necessary so many days as necessary will be used to give a verdict... I serious doubt that he will be given anything less than 21 year - plus protective custody as long as the court find it necessary to protect the society against that evil man...

Diclotican

[steve2470]

36. Diclotican, do you think he will be murdered in prison or....

will he be in special protective custody ? Thanks.

[Diclotican]

39. steve2470

steve2470

At least for the time being, he is in special protective custody at the prison. In fact the prison have build a new, "super max" building inside the prison complex he is living in, to secure that he would not be in any way near general population, the danger for him, to be murdered by the other prisoners - who often have been doing some nasty things before they got to the prison, is absolutely there. And something that officials in the prison have taken seriously enough, to build a new building...

I doubt, he will be a popular man among the prisoners - if he ever was to leave the special protective custody building, to mingle with the population inside the prison... He can be murdered, but I believe he would end up as a pariah inside prison - and maybe beaten and other ways treated bad.. For the most part our prison system is good at making sure that everyone IS secure - even a evil man like Breivik...

Diclotican

[jwirr]

8. He pleaded innocent and now he is telling all? What does he hope to gain?

[SlipperySlope]

9. He does not recognize the court.

He does not believe the court has any legitimate moral authority over him. Therefore, it doesn't matter what he tells the court, as the verdict inherently is meaningless to him.

[jwirr]

10. Wow. That is totally insane but of course he is not the only one who thinks that way - if I am not

mistaken neo-Nazis also believe that.

[FiveGoodMen]

23. "verdict inherently is meaningless to him"

The sentencing, on the other hand...

[Posteritatis]

12. He's "arguing" that what he did was a good thing, not a crime one can be guilty of. (nt)

[Blue_Tires]

13. He gets off telling the whole world how much of a badass he thinks he is...

And I think it thrills him to see the shock on the families' faces while he speaks on the stand...

[Octafish]

14. He killed LIBERALS.

The island was filled with the children of the nation's Labor Party -- the liberal party of Norway.

The man is not mad. He is a NAZI terrorist. What he did, in his demented mind, was political.

[wendylaroux]

15. Exactly!

Hate talk on the airwaves terrifies me.

[davidthegnome]

16. Agreed

Not everyone will see it that way though. As someone who was once a psych patient (PTSD) and who has known many psych patients, insane and otherwise... I do not think this man seems mad (insane). I would say rather that he is evil and of the same motivations as the Nazi.

Frankly, some have considered me mad, though I have never harmed another human being in my apparent madness. I find it offensive in the extreme that some will classify these the acts of someone who was mentally ill. I am mentally ill, I know many who are - and not a one of us has ever killed anyone.

Let us not excuse his actions as insanity. No, they were evil, politically motivated evil... so much hatred is merely a symptom of the far right ideology.

[Dont call me Shirley]

21. I agree with you. A new category just for these types of "mentally ill' must be named.

[TorchTheWitch]

50. there are many kinds of mental illness

And it's no better to assume that all mentally ill people are dangerous to themselves or others as it is to assume that no mentally ill people are dangerous to themselves or others. There absolutely are types of mental illness that can and do drive a person to harm or kill themselves or others.

I have fought will mental illness all of my life, and while medication certainly helps with the worst of panic attacks it certainly isn't a cure, nor does it help for extreme situations. However, though it does bother me that mental illness isn't taken as seriously as physical illness is, I also realize that there are some mental illness that are so mind altering that they DO drive a person to harm or kill.

I don't know if this guy is mentally ill or not and if he is what type of mental illness. I'm inclined to think that he is not mentally ill as the US justice system determines it, but I do believe he is a psychopath, which is not considered a mental illness but a personality or behavioral disorder. Personally, I believe that these personality disorders like psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissists, etc. ARE mental illnesses. I've never understood why they were ever considered not to be.

[freshwest]

20. Trying to convert people to his cause. Remember the freeper support?

We have people just like him walking free here.

[nolabear]

17. He's insane. But not in a way that should get an insanity defense.

Here's what I mean. The insanity defense was designed for mental illnesses that fall into specific categories, i.e. bipolar disorder, psychosis, PTSD, numerous things that can take you out of a normal way of thinking and allow you, or cause you, to do things that, were you in a normal frame of mind for you, you wouldn't do.

Then there are personality disorders. Sociopathic personalities, borderline personalities, paranoid personalities, etc. that are pervasive ways of thinking and perceiving yourself and others. They aren't always dangerous but many are volitile and can be very dangerous to self and others, and can be deeply delusional.

The first group responds to treatment, drug therapy and psychotherapy and the support and help of others. The second can be as hallucinatory and delusional as the first but not because of sudden, trauma or chemically induced storms in the brian as they are. The second is extraordinarily hard to treat. Not always impossible, but very frequently.

Brevik is clearly in the second category. He idealizes some vague nationalistic image while human beings are simply seen in light of how they support or thwart that ideal. They are not to him what they are to us non-disordered folks. He is in many ways far from what a human being is in the most important (to us other human beings) of ways.

I don't know what I'd do with him. Lock him away forever I suppose. I'm more concerned with those poor people he has harmed beyond belief. I hope they, out of their own humanity, can care for one another, and we, out of ours, can vow to work like hell to never let someone like him be able to do what he did again.

[davidthegnome]

35. We can hardly diagnose the man here

He could be of either category or of neither. One thing I have learned as a result of my own experiences in the world of psych, is that human beings will always find ways to shock you. Another is that nearly any individual at a particular moment in time could easily be diagnosed with any variety of mental illness. In this case, I don't think it matters. There is every indication that the man has a far right wing system of beliefs and that as a result he decided to kill people he found socially undesirable. History gives us many examples of such people - today we call them insane and/or mentally ill, even fit them with labels such as paranoid and delusional.

What I think that many often miss, is the sheer malice and arrogance that can reside in the human mind, which requires neither paranoia nor delusion. It requires neither psychosis nor even rage, simply a sincere belief that other people are unworthy of life or liberty because they are different. For lack of a better word, I call it evil. The sanity (or lack thereof) of the individual is irrelevant in such a case. It was this understanding that convinced many young people to join the military during the second world war. They knew what Hitler represented and realized he had to be stopped.

This man is not so different, though less powerful and less charismatic. Many of the right within our own Country are not so different - a number of them even hold public office, not all of them are republicans. This being the case, how do we make sure someone like him cannot again accomplish what he did? How can the people of any Nation? A gun is not required to kill, any weapon could be made to suit the purposes of a man like Brevik.

My point? It is not Brevik alone we need to confront or even hold responsible - it is the ideology that inspires such a man. The ideology held by a great number of people all throughout the world. This case is receiving such international attention, in part, because history is repeating itself. Perhaps we could classify right wing ideology (in severe instances) as the result of mental illness, but somehow I just don't think that would float. Such radical ideology must be confronted and denounced for the cruel, inhumane absolute evil that it is. Yet every day you can hear it on the Radio, on the television, read it on the internet.

Brevik is but one of many who think as he does and they are dangerous, growing in numbers and in violent rhetoric. Unless such ideology is confronted and clearly seen as wicked - as wrong... I suspect that in time we will see many similar cases, and even far worse.

[DCBob]

25. What good purpose is there to allow this maniac to detail his gruesome deeds?

Im sure he got a major thrill out of it and it could incite other copycat psychos. Dumb and dangerous.

[Ruby the Liberal]

30. It is sick, but it is the system.

Hopefully this will convince them to at least extend their maximum sentence (if possible) and keep him locked up for the rest of his life.

[proud patriot]

38. +1

[Lars77]

42. There is no need to change the system, he will be locked up for life.

The international media constantly refers to 21 years maximum, which is a technicality. If a person is deemed unfit to be released back into society, he can be held indefintely, and some people are such as a guy who raped and killed two small girls.

International media has to know this by now, but they don´t seem to care because it makes for a good story.

Believe me, this guy will never get out, sane or insane.


Please help me debunk this myth because its really annoying to have internationa media paint us as naive morons.

[Ruby the Liberal]

43. Not suggesting anything in the system needed to be changed.

I was referring to it being sick that he sat there and methodically described his murder spree as if he were killing an anthill full of red ants in a yard somewhere. That is the system though (here and there) - he has a right to speak in his own defense.

I don't think there is any myth to counter about his sentence. If 21 years is the formal official term he can be given, then that is the case. The challenge is the mindset - that here, giving someone three life sentences, or 300 years or something is not uncommon. Hearing 21 years for something this brutal is - so needs to be couched in terms that people in the US can understand. It is a lot more comfortable to hear formal terms about someone being locked up for the rest of his life than suggestions of "probably". Especially given changing political climates. With nothing formal on the books - who is to say that a sea change in thought/leadership won't take place and the guy is out having a beer in a cafe on his 60th birthday?

And on edit - I don't think it is an issue of naive or moron, but an issue of a lenient system that believes in rehabilitation, but may be being tested for the first time.

[Odin2005]

27. Evil SOB!!!

[steve2470]

44. Many good thoughts for the good people of Norway in your time of need and...

I hope this trial is over quickly and that he is locked away forever, as I think he will be.

[fujiyama]

51. The impact on Norwegians must be like the Oklahoma City bombing was to us

I mention OK City, and not 9/11, specifically because like with Brevik, it was a far right nut job that committed a heinous act of domestic terrorism. Like McVeigh, Brevik had a grudge against his own government, and decided to take his anger out on innocent men, women, and children. McVeigh also knew that he was targeting children at the daycare center at the Murrah building.

And like with McVeigh, the initial reaction was to blame the event on Islamist terrorists, when in reality the truth was far more difficult for many to accept - it was a fellow countryman that did this.

This sort of far right extremism must be kept in check the world over. While the Western democratic world is mostly tolerant and open to the multiculturalism of the past half century or so, there has been an obvious backlash by the far right in many countries. And in uncertain and difficult economic times, such voices often resonate. We've seen it here in the US with the rise of the tea party and insane rhetoric from the GOP. We have seen the nastiness, especially in places like AZ. We see it in France with the election right now and the strong showing by Le Pen.

My condolences to the people of Norway. For a small and mostly peaceful nation, such an event must be particularly horrific.

[pampango]

52. Another sign that the far-right never rests: Petition for Breivik's Release Arouses Contoversy

The organizers of the petition justifies the petition as follows:

" Anders Breivik is a scholar and a gentleman, a man wrongfully convicted. People should sign this petition to secure the liberty, freedom, and justice of Europe, as well as all of the world. For if we allow one man to fall, so too do we all."

So far, more than 200 people have signed the petition. The aim of the petition is to gather 9001 signatures to be sent to the Oslo District Court for immediate release of the mass murderer of 77 people in Oslo and Utøya on 22 July 2011. Some have also written their own comments.

- He did only what was necessary in my eyes so just let that man go. He deserves it, writes a symphatizer from Germany. Another person from Oslo also writes that he is a hero and should be awarded with Noble Price (sic).

The petition requires The Oslo Courts and Norwegian Government to discredit all allegations against Anders Behring Breivik, immediately release Anders Behring Breivik from custody and even issue a press release apology for the incident, including-but not limited to-the condemnation of the officials involved and potential arrests of the right-wing terrorist.

According to TV2, this petition list is not the only one in circulation. Several websites and Facebook pages have been also created to celebrate terrorist Breivik and demand his release. There are even groups who print T-Shirts with Breivik's photos.

http://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/2901-petition-for-breiviks-release-arouses-contoversy