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Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 06:25 AM Apr 2015

Survivors mark 70 years since liberation of Buchenwald concentration camp

Source: Deutsche Welle

Survivors of the Buchenwald concentration camp near the eastern German city of Weimar were to gather at the site on Saturday to commemorate the camp's liberation by American soldiers on 11 April, 1945.

The around 80 former camp inmates have come from several European countries as well as Australia, Israel, the USA and Canada to take part in a ceremony that will include a minute of silence at 3:15 p.m local time (1315 UTC) - the time at which the camp was liberated - to remember their murdered co-prisoners.



Three veterans of the US army division that liberated the camp have also come to Weimar for the commemorations, which will continue into the evening with lectures, films and music in Weimar's German National Theater.

By 1945, the Buchenwald concentration camp was the largest on German soil. More than 50,000 people are thought to have met their deaths there under the Nazi regime, including 11,800 Jews.

Read more: http://www.dw.de/survivors-mark-70-years-since-liberation-of-buchenwald-concentration-camp/a-18375168



Lest we forget.







34 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Survivors mark 70 years since liberation of Buchenwald concentration camp (Original Post) Surya Gayatri Apr 2015 OP
Peace Telcontar Apr 2015 #1
(((((Peace)))))! Surya Gayatri Apr 2015 #2
The GI's didn't mess around When they liberated one of the camps - Joe Chi Minh Apr 2015 #3
Eeeeentereeeesting! Eeeeentereeeesting! Surya Gayatri Apr 2015 #4
Yes. That is defnitely in Gregor Dallas' book. Specifically, it was Stalin who insisted. Joe Chi Minh Apr 2015 #10
It was one of the Topics at Yalta, Chruchill just wanted to shoot the Nazis happyslug Apr 2015 #11
So it wasn't just the Russians who favored trials? FDR, too? Surya Gayatri Apr 2015 #12
Yes, FDR wanted those trials, as did Truman happyslug Apr 2015 #14
Thanks for the thorough answer. Surya Gayatri Apr 2015 #15
After you made you post I added to notes on looking at the trial is isolation happyslug Apr 2015 #18
Hard to manage the incomings and outgoings sometimes. Surya Gayatri Apr 2015 #19
And I forgot about Atlee... happyslug Apr 2015 #21
Ironic that our leaders - UK and US - protected and harboured Joe Chi Minh Apr 2015 #22
Yes. Thanks from me too. Not surprising considering Roosevelt Joe Chi Minh Apr 2015 #16
thank you for both of your posts irisblue Apr 2015 #34
Any documentary proof of this contention as well? raccoon Apr 2015 #5
Such a massacre occurred at Dachau, but appears to be result of America fears and standing Orders happyslug Apr 2015 #13
This message was self-deleted by its author Joe Chi Minh Apr 2015 #20
Hitler gave an order to excute on the spot any Allied special forces, Joe Chi Minh Apr 2015 #23
I thought it was Dachau too yeoman6987 Apr 2015 #26
Well, it appeared in a book I finished reading about a week ago, written Joe Chi Minh Apr 2015 #6
Would be interested to have the ISBN, if you can... Surya Gayatri Apr 2015 #7
The ISBN, Surya, of POISONED PEACE is: Joe Chi Minh Apr 2015 #8
Thanks! Surya Gayatri Apr 2015 #9
My pleasure Surya. Joe Chi Minh Apr 2015 #17
Never forget. brer cat Apr 2015 #24
Never, ever, ever. Surya Gayatri Apr 2015 #25
Well, one doesn't even have to reflect on their potential. Each one Joe Chi Minh Apr 2015 #29
I wasn't really thinking of potential for greatness brer cat Apr 2015 #31
A very good point. Joe Chi Minh Apr 2015 #32
... shenmue Apr 2015 #27
.../... Surya Gayatri Apr 2015 #28
.... 840high Apr 2015 #30
K&R irisblue Apr 2015 #33

Joe Chi Minh

(15,229 posts)
3. The GI's didn't mess around When they liberated one of the camps -
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 07:32 AM
Apr 2015

I can't remember which one, maybe Buchenwald - they were so outraged by what they saw, they machine-gunned all the guards! I think there were 260. Some figure in that vicinity. I doubled up with laughter when I read it.

It's called 'righteous indignation', and occupies a place in human affairs not to be undervalued on Christian or any other ethical grounds. Had it not been for the Russians, there would have been no Nuremburg Trials. Our people Brits and Yanks were so compromised with fascism, including Churchill, he just wanted to kill 50 or so of the leading Nazi war criminals within 8 or so hours of the war's end.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
4. Eeeeentereeeesting! Eeeeentereeeesting!
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 07:34 AM
Apr 2015
'Had it not been for the Russians, there would have been no Nuremburg Trials.'

Any documentary proof of this contention?

Joe Chi Minh

(15,229 posts)
10. Yes. That is defnitely in Gregor Dallas' book. Specifically, it was Stalin who insisted.
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 10:52 AM
Apr 2015

There is a wonderful exchange in it, reported by a general who accompanied Zhukov to an interview with Stalin. He was surprised at the authoritative and brusque way in which Zhukov answered Stalin's questions and spoke to him, generally. Stalin evidently respected the man's honest demeanour:

The Germans were, I think, just four miles from Moscow, and Stalin had been contemplating fleeing the city for a safer one.

Stalin: 'Shall we stay in Moscow?'

Zhukov: 'We shall.'

I just love that exchange, and keep trying to imitate the 'authoritative and brusque' manner in which Zhukov would have said it: 'We shall!'

Stalin then put on the normal I think Mayday Parade, with a great march-past of troops, drive past of armour and doubtless fly-past of planes. The effect on the morale of the populace was astoundingly positive, and it became a legend for it even among the victims of his paranoid, psychopathic regime.

Apparently, for a victory parade after the war, Zhukov had been assigned a white horse to sit on, a very highly-charged, quasi apocalyptic symbolism favoured by national leaders. When Stalin saw this, he ordered that he should be given the white horse and another, less striking horse assigned to Zhukov. However, the horse wouldn't allow Stalin on his back, so he had to take another horse instead. I don't imagine Zhukov was reassigned the white horse, though he may have. Also, jealous of Zhukov's popularity with the public, Stalin had him spend the remaining years of his life living out in the sticks somewhere. Poor old Zhukov was never happy there. I can't remember the book (s) I read those snippets in.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
11. It was one of the Topics at Yalta, Chruchill just wanted to shoot the Nazis
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 10:53 AM
Apr 2015

Accordinging to this English Account Stalin backed FDR in favor of Trials:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/26/britain-execution-nuremberg-nazi-leaders

While Churchill just wanted to shoot the Nazis, Stalin wanted to hold summary trials to determine sentences (i.e. a Show Trials). FDR objected to this and during the Summer of 1945 what types of trials were to be held were negotiated by allies.

http://www.roberthjackson.org/the-man/speeches-articles/speeches/speeches-related-to-robert-h-jackson/reflections-on-nuremberg-trial/

Finally the Nurembery trial were set up. There were not just be trials on the sentence of the Nazis (Churchill and Stalin maintained that guite had been found by the ally leaders in Yalta and thus no issue of guilt or innocent remained) but also the whether each Nazi were innocent of guilty of a war crime.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
14. Yes, FDR wanted those trials, as did Truman
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 11:29 AM
Apr 2015

Through there is some indication that FDR was willing to go along with Churchill till Stalin said he wanted Trials (i.e if Stalin agreed, FDR would also agree to Churchill's proposal). On the other hand the US press had did a very effective attack on the Soviet Show Trials of the late 1930s that FDR and later Truman could NOT agree to such show trials. Both wanted the trials to appear to be fair. On the other hand only part of the Trial was verbally recorded and even less was filmed. The opening part and the prosecution part tended to be filmed but not the Defence. The reason for this was simple, the recordings (Both Verbal and Video) were for propaganda purposes to show that the Nazis were given fair trials.

Never look at things in isolation, thus Nuremberg is influenced by the Cold War and the Soviet Show Trials of the late 1930s in addition to WWII itself. What happened 20 year before is still within living memory and people will consider what happened 20 years ago as part of their thinking today. WWII is not 70 years ago, most people living today had no PERSONAL knowledge of it. Vietnam ended 35 years ago, most people today have no personal knowledge of it (but a sizable minority do, those born before 1970, those born after 1970s were either to young to remember, born between 1970 and 1975, or just to young, born after 1975). Thus WWII has little pull today (and the Great Depression even less) but Vietnam is still within political memory.

I bring this up for during Nuremberg the Soviet Show Trials were just 10 years before, thus within living memory as were the reports of those trials. Thus they had a great effect on why and how the Nuremberg trials occurred.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
18. After you made you post I added to notes on looking at the trial is isolation
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 11:51 AM
Apr 2015

Living Memory is the concept what what people who are alive today know from personal experience. Some living memory survived a couple of generation but it also can be forgotten as the people who went through it die of old age. I bring this up for I made the changes AFTER you have made your post and I want to make sure everyone knows you are responding to my comments without my comments about living memory.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
21. And I forgot about Atlee...
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 12:13 PM
Apr 2015

Yalta was in 1944, Potsdam was in 1945. Potsdam saw Truman replacing FDR and Atlee replaced Churchill thuis leaving Stalin. Britain had NOT had an election since 1938 so Churchill called one and lost. Labour won that election and its leader, Atlee, replaced Churchill during the Potsdam Conference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potsdam_Conference

Atlee, being Labour, disliked summary executions (To close to known strike breaking tactics to suit labour) thus by Potsdam it was going to be trials, the only real issue is how fair would they be (and given that the Nazis had committed some terrible acts, any trials would be viewed by them as unfair).

Joe Chi Minh

(15,229 posts)
22. Ironic that our leaders - UK and US - protected and harboured
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 12:27 PM
Apr 2015

many, if not most, of the very worst war criminals, isn't it?

I knew a Japanese chemicals industrialist had used GIs for cryogenic testing to destruction, and was exonerated by the US in return for the sick info he's extracted. The other day, I read they'd engaged in vivisection of GI's too.

Joe Chi Minh

(15,229 posts)
16. Yes. Thanks from me too. Not surprising considering Roosevelt
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 11:45 AM
Apr 2015

had had his own run-ins with fascists in the US, such as Dupont, J P Morgan et al.

raccoon

(31,105 posts)
5. Any documentary proof of this contention as well?
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 08:09 AM
Apr 2015
they were so outraged by what they saw, they machine-gunned all the guards! I think there were 260.
 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
13. Such a massacre occurred at Dachau, but appears to be result of America fears and standing Orders
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 11:22 AM
Apr 2015

Last edited Sat Apr 11, 2015, 07:45 PM - Edit history (2)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_concentration_camp

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberation/SoldiersKilled.html

According to Whitlock, the men of the 45th Infantry Division had been warned about the danger posed by German POWs by General George S. Patton, Jr., the Commander of the US Seventh Army, on June 27, 1943 just before their invasion of Sicily. Whitlock wrote:

"Patton cautioned the men to watch out for dirty tricks when it seemed a group of enemy soldiers wanted to surrender. A favorite tactic, the general said, was for a small group to suddenly drop their weapons and raise their hands or wave a white flag. When unsuspecting Americans moved into the open to take the enemy prisoner, the 'surrendering' troops would hit the dirt and their comrades, lying in wait, would spring up and mow down the exposed Americans. Patton warned the Thunderbirds to be on their guard for this sort of treachery and to show no mercy if the Germans or Italians attempted this trick. His words would have fateful repercussions."

The "fateful repercussions," that Whitlock was referring to, was the incident that happened at the liberation of Dachau when a young soldier of the 45th Infantry Division of the US Seventh Army opened fire on a group of Waffen-SS soldiers who had surrendered. He claimed that the surrendered soldiers had moved forward.


Dachau was also the location of a SS Army post, and it from that post the victims of the massacre came from, NOT the camp. The attached Slave Camp (Where prisoners were worked to death) was not liberated till AFTER the Massacre (but on the same day), but that has NOT stopped people from SAYING that massacre was because of American Soldiers seeing a death camp. The Russians had liberated several by that time in the war (most had been in Poland, including the larger ones) but US sources were still hinting that the reports of those camps were Soviet Propaganda (But do to the war it was only hinted and dismissed as such NO actual accusation of propaganda were made). Thus you have writers saying the Americans knew of the Death Camps, but such writers ignore the attitude of the time period to dismiss reports from Russia as Propaganda (But this had the effect of providing a cover story for an American War Crime for killing unarmed POWs is a war crime).

After I wrote the Above, down below Joe Chin Minh asked about the Camp Guards, but before I would answer he self deleted his post, but I do want to explain how the Camp Guards and the Waffen SS interacted during WWII:

Prior to WWII, Waffen SS would take turns being Concentration Camp Guards, but that ended by 1940. On the other hand both the Waffen SS and Camp Guards were recruited in the same recruitment offices (The German Regular Army did NOT take enlistees, all of Regular Army troops were drafted).

As WWII progressed the Camp guards became older, not only do to age, but the younger ones could transfer (or be transferred) the Waffen SS as troops were needed. Thus most of the Camp Guards by 1945 were in their 50s and had family in the area. Thus as the US Troops approached they just stayed at home, they did NOT go to work that day. If the Guards were on duty, they just left as the American neared the camp and went home themselves. The Prisoners did not know what to do so they stayed (Like most prisons, the prisoners operated the kitchens so what food was in the warehouse was prepared and waited to see what would happen). Thus the only SS troops in the area were members of a SS unit that had fallen back to that position from the front lines.

Now, I would NOT be surprised if the SS troops had been feed by the Prisoners, for that would have been part of the routine of the camp. i.e. Cook and feed the prisoners and then took some food to the recruitment centers as Waffen SS Soldiers had come and go from that camp all through the war. The prisoners had no place to go, and if they did it had to be on foot. Thus the Prisoners stayed in the Camp till the Americans showed up. Given Patton's standing orders, the huge number of civilians in a SS Camp would have put the Americans on high alert for any tricks like what Patton had warned them about. You hear of Soldiers hiding among Civilians, using the Civilians as Shields during the Korean war, but such reports are quite old, Genghis Khan is accused of using such tactics in China in the 1200s.

Given the Soldiers were probably only told it was a SS Camp, they would have been on edge. The Waffen SS soldiers just had the bad luck to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Response to happyslug (Reply #13)

Joe Chi Minh

(15,229 posts)
23. Hitler gave an order to excute on the spot any Allied special forces,
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 12:44 PM
Apr 2015

Last edited Sat Apr 11, 2015, 03:07 PM - Edit history (1)

and after the war, evidently before the SAS was disbanded* (temporarily, as it transpired), some of them got permission to go to France (and elsewhere maybe) to take care of ''unfinished business" - looking for those responsible for murdering their buddies, which they duly did.

After the war there was a Scottish lad (an old boy who now lives in the south of England) who decided to blow up Franco with dynamite, which he hid under his kilt. It's a hilarious story, if you can find it. I forget his name though. Our iintelligence people had tracked him from the get-go and he was arrested n Spain, tried and sentenced death. After a while he was reprieved and sent back to Scotland. Our authorities must have known he had a point.

Incidentally, some of you may be interested in the story and YouTube video-clips of a soldier from N. Ireland called Blair Mayne. He must have been close to the ultimate soldier. Trouble was, it made him a lousy civilian and a danger even to his fellow-officers, one of whom he shot multiple times with a pistol, on one occasion during a drunken binge. He should have got 3 VCs or more, but doubtless because of such incidents, he has never been given one, even posthumously, though several medals just beneath a VC. I'd thought the only VC in N Ireland was the one awarded to a Catholic, I think submariner, but Paddy Mayne seems to have been a Protestant.

He and his handful of fellow-SAS and LRDG men were responsible for the destruction of more aircraft in N Africa than the air-force. No wonder Hitler 'did his nut' about the special forces.

*When one of the SAS lads asked the officer who had them on parade to inform them of the disbandment of the SAS, they were told by him that the British army didn't want gangsters in its ranks! Tee hee. They were happy enough to have them during the war, but some of the officers of field regiments had always been jealous of the glamorous reputation in the eyes of the public of a bunch of mavericks (to an extent).

 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
26. I thought it was Dachau too
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 01:01 PM
Apr 2015

I visited there twice. The first time was after a late night on Octoberfest. Sobered me up real quick.

Joe Chi Minh

(15,229 posts)
6. Well, it appeared in a book I finished reading about a week ago, written
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 09:34 AM
Apr 2015

by a historian called Gregor Dallas. The book is entitled: Poisoned Peace 1945 - The War that never Ended.

It is a library book, which I still have here. I had hoped to be able to find it again, but was unable to. I'll probably try again and, of course, if I find it, I'll let you know.

I don't doubt it is documented, as he is an 'acclaimed' historian.

PS: It could be that I read it the week before, in a book called, All Hell Let Loose, by another British historian, Max Hastings. This account of WWII is written largely from the viewpoint of ordinary folk, both military and civilian, rather than the world leaders, although Hastings seems to acutely analyze and synthesize the big picture, too. It covers the war with Japan, as well.

brer cat

(24,523 posts)
24. Never forget.
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 12:54 PM
Apr 2015

Jews, gays, Sinti and Romas...so many lives, so much potential gone due to bigotry and hatred.

Joe Chi Minh

(15,229 posts)
29. Well, one doesn't even have to reflect on their potential. Each one
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 01:07 PM
Apr 2015

was infinitely precious in God's eyes, no matter how inconsequential and ordinary their lives might have seemed, on the outside.

It's a cliche, but no less true for that. Not one jot. God had the same infinite love for them, as if no-one else apart from them had existed in the world. He still does, for many of them, hopefully, now living forever in so much happier circumstances than we could imagine.

brer cat

(24,523 posts)
31. I wasn't really thinking of potential for greatness
Sat Apr 11, 2015, 03:20 PM
Apr 2015

but reflecting on the fact that many were children and young adults who were denied their opportunity for development.

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